Discrimination - can it be stopped?

[prasad1]

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Reference Kunjuppu in post #154:



1. There are people who roll over left over food - in the name of belief.
2. There are people who carry a cross on their shoulder and reenact the Biblical scene on the mount of Kalwary faithfully every year(complete with thorn cap,whipping etc) -in the name of belief.
3. There are people who grievously hurt themselves with whips and weapons to remember every year a relative of a prophet - in the name of belief.
4. There are people who kill a buffalo slowly by repeatedly puncturing it with small holes so that it bleeds to death slowly-in the name of belief.
5. There are people who dedicate young girls to Gods and then disfigure the girls' clit -in the name of belief.

Kunjuppu, I can go on and on. I have given up feeling agitated about such stupidities long back. Finally the residue is the questions- who am I to question all these and can I do anything effectively about all these?

Personally my views about faith (because I have taken pains to know my belief system well) and life are much different.I can say just this much only.

Cheers.

Mr. Raju your post is very good.
A lawful voluntary act can not be legislated. Religion must be free of interference from Government interference. I can understand that government does control the Devestanam board and indirectly controls the Temple management (it should not). But the social practices of Individual and private group is relatively free in India. The same people who want increasing government in India, would not want that in USA.
Private preference, is not discrimination.

 

[happyhindu]

Subbudu sir,

Do they really expect to get reservations by asserting their Parashurama roles with Axes? Couldn't they have said they have given up Parashurama roles and are now equals as everyone else?

The society does not shun them so wondering why can't they start business..

Reservations are meant to undo the effects of varna-ism. It is meant to help the former untouchables / backwards, to get some standing and social respect out of education and employment prospects.

Btw, am curious, did they claims brahmins were never rulers or that brahmins were always peaceful (despite threating with axes like parashuramas) ?

 

[suraju06]

Nara in post #153:

Some have argued why Brahmins must be held responsible for this idiocy. Well, any Brahmin who chooses to enter a Brahmin only hall is culpable. The very reason he does not want to eat in the general area, but prefers a Brahmin only pandhi makes him culpable. This is not an omission out of inaction, but a commission of explicit choice for exclusivity, separateness from all the rest.

"This is not an omission out of inaction, but a commission of explicit choice for exclusivity, separateness from all the rest".

This would be a culpable offence only if you analyse and prove that there was a bad intention or a desire to discriminate. (1)A brahmin, according to his belief system, (he has a belief system like all others in this world) has to offer the food to the God dwelling inside him (Antaryaami) before himself taking it. (2) As the process of eating is a 'yajna' for him he is not supposed to interrupt it untill completion. These two requirements presuppose a certain discipline and behavior during eating by those who eat together with a brahmin. If they can subject themselves to such a discipline there would be no objection to a brahmin taking food in the general hall. He does not want to eat in a separate hall not because he is brahmin who is superior to others, but because he wants to perform his duty properly according to his belief system. So there is no commission of choice for exclusivity coming out of notions of casteist discrimination. It is a simple act of an individual's desire for performing his religious duties along with others who also perform it.

When X goes on a tour he prefers to go to a vegetarian restaurant whereas some of his colleagues go to a non-veg restaurant. Here too there is a deliberate and explicit choice for exclusivity from the rest but without any culpability in an offence. The same applies to brahmins' choice for exclusivity coming out of a desire to do their duty to the antaratman/antaryami. குற்றம் பார்க்கில் சுற்றம் இல்லை is an old பழமொழி . Now I would say, if you start looking for only bad intention in every action of brahmins you will get plenty of them, the limiting factor being only your mind's capacity for imagination. So, you live in your world of misunderstanding and those brahmins live in their world of supine ignorance about you and your views. And, we, here suffer the discomfort of watching all this.

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

When it suits their personal needs people will do what is required. The very people who are now complaining willfully entered a country that openly discriminated against African-american. And took part by accepting the secondary spot to the majority to exploit this minority group. If you ask an African American they will tell you that the later immigrant, allowed the whites to oppress them longer.

In the same vain will these people who think their kind were discriminated, give up their quota position for some one else. I bet they would be first to claim their spot, these opportunist.

 

[prasad1]

Nara in post #153:



"This is not an omission out of inaction, but a commission of explicit choice for exclusivity, separateness from all the rest".

This would be a culpable offence only if you analyse and prove that there was a bad intention or a desire to discriminate. (1)A brahmin, according to his belief system, (he has a belief system like all others in this world) has to offer the food to the God dwelling inside him (Antaryaami) before himself taking it. (2) As the process of eating is a 'yajna' for him he is not supposed to interrupt it untill completion. These two requirements presuppose a certain discipline and behavior during eating by those who eat together with a brahmin. If they can subject themselves to such a discipline there would be no objection to a brahmin taking food in the general hall. He does not want to eat in a separate hall not because he is brahmin who is superior to others, but because he wants to perform his duty properly according to his belief system. So there is no commission of choice for exclusivity coming out of notions of casteist discrimination. It is a simple act of an individual's desire for performing his religious duties along with others who also perform it.

When X goes on a tour he prefers to go to a vegetarian restaurant whereas some of his colleagues go to a non-veg restaurant. Here too there is a deliberate and explicit choice for exclusivity from the rest but without any culpability in an offence. The same applies to brahmins' choice for exclusivity coming out of a desire to do their duty to the antaratman/antaryami. குற்றம் பார்க்கில் சுற்றம் இல்லை is an old பழமொழி . Now I would say, if you start looking for only bad intention in every action of brahmins you will get plenty of them, the limiting factor being only your mind's capacity for imagination. So, you live in your world of misunderstanding and those brahmins live in their world of supine ignorance about you and your views. And, we, here suffer the discomfort of watching all this.

Cheers.

I would definitely go to a vegetarian only eating place even if I had to pay a little bit more. It is unfortunate to designate it Brahmin only eating place. I did not know there are eating places in Hindu temples for the devotees. In gurudwara, BAPS Temple, and Jain worship places where they serve food it is always vegetarian and common food hall. In our Temple dining hall here is US we only serve vegetarian food and at same price to all.

 

[Nara]

...This would be a culpable offence only if you analyse and prove that there was a bad intention or a desire to discriminate. (1)A brahmin, according to his belief system, (he has a belief system like all others in this world) has to offer the food to the God dwelling inside him (Antaryaami) before himself taking it. (2) As the process of eating is a 'yajna' for him he is not supposed to interrupt it untill completion.

Raju, I agree, there may not be bad intention, but, here we will disagree surely, when we see bad results like segregation, supremacist feelings, it is incumbent upon them to teach the others to follow the etiquette and let the others join also.

I have seen these feasts enough to know the belief system you mention is a farce for most Brahmins eating in these exclusive halls. It is not as though all the Brahmins follow these rules and only the NBs if allowed to join will refuse to follow the rules. As far as I have seen, the kainkaryaparas have to repeatedly remind people to remain in their places until everyone is ready to rise. I can't accept that NBs will refuse to obey such admonishments and only the Bs will.

One more question arises in my mind. Except the ultra-orthodox, most others have no problem joining everyone else in other occasions like marriage, office party, restaurants, etc. I think these people not sitting in the general area but entering the Brahmins only hall cannot be justified.

And, we, here suffer the discomfort of watching all this.

I am sorry this causes discomfort to you and your likes, but I am not going to stop expressing my views as honestly as I can. It is best you get used to it or stop reading my posts.

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

Poor Newton.

"In 1661, at 18, a late age compared to his peers, Newton arrived at Trinity college, cambridge. . . . Newton paid for his keep by signing on as a sub-sizar. It meant performing menial tasks, such as cleaning and emptying out chamber pots, and dining separately from fee-paying students, a stigma that may have played a role in newton's later social isolation at the university."

"Genius of Britain - The scientists who changed the world, by robert uhlig, Harper Collins publication.

Even today manual scavenging is not totally abolished, even basic sanitation is not available in villages and towns, and all railway stations are filthy because of open sky policy of indian railways. What rahul and sonia gandhi have done for their constituencies in this area, is nothing.

 

[renuka]

When I was in India as a student I remember going to a temple with my mum in Udupi where they had seperate meal halls for Brahmins and Non Brahmins.

My mum was not aware that there was a seperate hall was on the way to sit at the Brahmin hall when I saw the sign board and told her that its only for Brahmins so she can sit(since she is a Brahmin) and I cant sit there cos I am NB.

My mum was thinking whats the big deal and told me to sit with her, I told her I cannot break rules and so we both sat at the Non Brahmin section.

We didnt feel bad about it..it was just like following rules thats all.

I didnt feel discriminated cos most important is I came to pray and thats what mattered most.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Your point may be correct. But, if you had sat with your mother, no one would have questioned you
as you and your mother (both) only had visited the temple. You had upheld the principles/guidelines
of temple on your own.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[suraju06]

I am sorry this causes discomfort to you and your likes, but I am not going to stop expressing my views as honestly as I can. It is best you get used to it or stop reading my posts

The discomfort is not because you express your views honestly as they occur to you. It is because either you are completely ignorant of the real reasons for the separate sitting or you know it and yet you choose to ignore it for the moment. And it is also because the brahmins who sit separately are completely ignorant of the existence of such ill informed resentment and fail to address it. The discomfort is because there appears to be no meeting point.

I am getting used to many things here. And I am aware that it is my take whether to read or not read a post.

 

[Soumya Ramasubramanian]

As mentioned by you sir,about the two pointsone about a brahmin feeding his antaryamiand two about yagna..and not getting interrupted until completion...In this current world of 2011,how many brahmins know that while eating food this is what should be in their mind?How many brahmins follow it?

 

[Soumya Ramasubramanian]

That reply was with reference to post #153...

 

[prasad1]

One can not expect discrimination to end in all forms. We can only limit the overt discrimination, by legislating and strict enforcement. Social discrimination can be reduced by education, and economic progress. So the people wailing about some isolated incidents in some corner of India, is not mainstream discrimination. By posting such incidents in public forum you just want to humiliate India, and Indians. If an abhorrent incident is taking place, take a strong position with the concerned authority, protest at the site and make the change needed in legal manner.

 

[Nara]

Gulnare Free Will Baptist Church: Kentucky Congregation Overturns Ban On Interracial Couples

 

[suraju06]

post #161 of Soumya:

As mentioned by you sir,about the two pointsone about a brahmin feeding his antaryamiand two about yagna..and not getting interrupted until completion...In this current world of 2011,how many brahmins know that while eating [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]food[/FONT][/FONT] this is what should be in their mind?How many brahmins follow it?​

We will have to take a poll to know the truth. Those brahmins who do not know the two points,in any case, will go and sit anywhere and eat and caste is not there in their mind anywhere because it is fully occupied by the meal they are going to take. So we need not bother about them. But those who go to the special enclosure-will have to answer your question. I am unable to make a guess.​

 

[Soumya Ramasubramanian]

post #161 of Soumya:We will have to take a poll to know the truth. Those brahmins who do not know the two points,in any case, will go and sit anywhere and eat and caste is not there in their mind anywhere because it is fully occupied by the meal they are going to take. So we need not bother about them. But those who go to the special enclosure-will have to answer your question. I am unable to make a guess.[/COLOR][/INDENT][/COLOR]

well..just because a person eats anywhere doesn't mean that he thinks about food...it is just that he thankfully does not have the caste system or religion system ("created by man") in his mind when he is with people...No where is it mentioned that brahmins were created a separate species and that we require special attention...

 

[sarang]

Perhaps a simpler explanation may clear the air. In any (public or private) function, there are special entrances and seats for vips, life members, subscription members and general public; and nobody complains. After all one has the option to follow the customs of the temple or just take a detour and take food in the hotel outside. Why strain the brain and increase bp?

well..just because a person eats anywhere doesn't mean that he thinks about food...it is just that he thankfully does not have the caste system or religion system ("created by man") in his mind when he is with people...No where is it mentioned that brahmins were created a separate species and that we require special attention...

 

[prasad1]

In any (public or private) function, there are special entrances and seats for vips, life members, subscription members and general public; and nobody complains

A financial, or positional discretion is accepted in public forums. It is not called discrimination (as it is not birth based).

 

[biswa]

When I was in India as a student I remember going to a temple with my mum in Udupi where they had seperate meal halls for Brahmins and Non Brahmins.

My mum was not aware that there was a seperate hall was on the way to sit at the Brahmin hall when I saw the sign board and told her that its only for Brahmins so she can sit(since she is a Brahmin) and I cant sit there cos I am NB.

My mum was thinking whats the big deal and told me to sit with her, I told her I cannot break rules and so we both sat at the Non Brahmin section.

We didnt feel bad about it..it was just like following rules thats all.

I didnt feel discriminated cos most important is I came to pray and thats what mattered most.

So how did they identify Bs and NBs? Did people have to wear a yellow star like the Jews were made to wear by Hitler?
Sorry Renuka, if this was not discrimination, then I don't know what is. It is to your credit that your mind was on a plane higher than the bigots in the temple management.

 

[biswa]

A financial, or positional discretion is accepted in public forums. It is not called discrimination (as it is not birth based).

I think this is one of the worst, specially in Indian temples. We were at the Siddhi Vinayak temple in Mumbai when the darshan line was stopped for half hour while a minister visited (probably to seek blessings for re-election). So tell me this: does the minister have a special claim on God? And what about the elderly and the infants who were waiting in line for the extra 30 min? Will the minister be blessed for causing the extra difficulty to them?

 

[sarang]

So discrimination exists in all walks of life.

vips get priority in darshan; others are not denied darshan.

brahmins are fed in a different hall; others are not denied food.

due to president's visit, I am blocked from using the particular road; I am free to use the same route after the president leaves.

Of course, we grumble, suffer a bit, our ego for priority treatment is punctured a bit; but in the larger scheme of things, we all get what is offered.

Every restrictive practice must be analysed.

 

[happyhindu]

So how did they identify Bs and NBs? Did people have to wear a yellow star like the Jews were made to wear by Hitler?
Sorry Renuka, if this was not discrimination, then I don't know what is. It is to your credit that your mind was on a plane higher than the bigots in the temple management.

biswa,

it is impossible for a child and a mother to feel discriminated against each other.
so i suppose it is natural, that renu did not sense discrimination..

actually this brings out an other point -- were do children of intercaste and interreligion marriages fit in?

i hope these very children of mixed marriages someday ask everyone to be treated as equals, irrespective of birth.

regards.

 

[suraju06]

Soumya in post #166

No where is it mentioned that brahmins were created a separate species and that we require special attention..

Amen!!

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

As regards visit of Ministers and VIPs to the Temples, you can often find that in
Tirupathi, where devotees will be stay put in the Cage for hours together to
enable the VIPs to have a darshan. This is quite a natural phenomena.

As regards eating in public places, we cannot exactly say. Renukaji exhibited that
she is above everything. There are some hotels written as Brahmin Hotel. But if
you go in, you will find NBs preparing and serving the food, though owner is Brahmin.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[renuka]

As regards visit of Ministers and VIPs to the Temples, you can often find that in
Tirupathi, where devotees will be stay put in the Cage for hours together to
enable the VIPs to have a darshan. This is quite a natural phenomena.

As regards eating in public places, we cannot exactly say. Renukaji exhibited that
she is above everything. There are some hotels written as Brahmin Hotel. But if
you go in, you will find NBs preparing and serving the food, though owner is Brahmin.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

Dear Sir,

I just read what you wrote..sir to say I am above everything.. I feel I am still very very far from that state.
I still have all reactions like any normal human being and let me share why I didnt feel discrimination in the temple when there were seperate dining halls.

I just followed it as a rule like how when traffic light turns red all cars have to stop.
The temple may be had some of its own reasons for imposing the rule which I might not be aware off but nevertheless a rule is a rule.

I have had some of my Non Brahmin friends who used to sit in the Brahmin section along with their Brahmin friends but I feel that after prayer one should not indulge in falsehood and sit where one is not supposed to sit..thats why I chose to sit in the NB section.

It really didnt matter to me becos God is everywhere and this was the very same temple where the idol of Lord Krishna had turned to face Bhaktha Kanakadas who was not allowed in the temple(becos of his caste) and even the road where the temple is situated is named after Kanakadas.

I felt God was very much present everywhere in the temple for such a miracle to happen many many years ago so it made no difference where we ate or sat.