Do we follow some norms and ethics in this forum

[SuryaKasyapa]

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...................If the right people discard the selfproclaimed dalit leaders speach and action there won't be hatred

Vote bank politics is based on number game and block voting. Vested interest leaders exploit the situations ,do a sort of hypnotising work by creating a bogey that, " so and so are your enemies" 'your are in this poor condition because of the so and so'.. The people get mesmerised by the sound bytes and vitriolics. They jus follow the some such leader who has clout and vote as per his wishes. Tat is all .There end thier role. Their only duty is to assemble in numbers in meetings and rallies called by the leader, shout and repeat what he says, get money or drinks supplied by his henchmen, idolise him ,etc etc.If he tells to pelt stones at somebody he points out,they will loyally do so.Exploiting this loyalty, vested interests will do many clandestine deeds which can further create hatred and polarisation.This very well clear in many many places and incidents.

There are certain dogmatic parties who came to power, driving on the mass euphoria hatred
and promising so many things.They ruled the states for many terms. They did not solve any of the problems(deliberately,because if all problems are solved ,what will they base their campaign for next election?)

Problem with our community is that we are microscopic minority in numbers, and that also scattered. And even if concentrated, will note vote en bloc.So we cannot tilt votes. So no party considers us. Majority of the political parties are not against us. They all know the reality also.But they are simply helpless. If they do not blame us,if they do not point at us they will not be accepted. The situation will be exploited by some other vested interest to drive hatred and defeat the main parties.That is all. Except for the matter of reservations,mainstream political parties are not openly against us. But reservation is , of course, a big vote winner. It is going to be worse. I expect a day when the supposedly beneficiaries themselves come against reservation system ,because they themselves will find that they are exploited, by their own leaders .

So what we can do is to do all efforts ,as allowed under the constitution and civil law and love our country and countrymen.But if better opportunity comes ,outside , we can accept that. We also should try to bring similar opportunities inside our own country.

Greeting.

 

[sangom]

Dear Suryakasyapa,

I think the discussion is whether reservation is good or not. I have already stated my views in post #173 above. Some are of the view that the system of reservations is not good and so it should go. What is your view in this matter?

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Dear Suryakasyapa,

I think the discussion is whether reservation is good or not. I have already stated my views in post #173 above. Some are of the view that the system of reservations is not good and so it should go. What is your view in this matter?

In principle,I am against any reservation. But local priorities can be given, as per situations and circumstances. If reservation is to be there, then it should be based on income , and poor among all communities should get it.


Greetings

 

[wrongan]

The eminent persons who were at the helm of affairs in framing rules of reservation in the constitution saw Kuppan and Suppan who were not allowed to sit along with other people in the elementary school. Other persons engaged in scavenging who are denied to eat in eateries along with others,travel comfortably like others. .On the other side most people are Employed in Governmet,enjoing all conveniences in public.They wanted this discremination only to be driven out.They thought this can be achieved by educating them and give priority in becoming Government officers.It means that the criteria at that time was to uplift the realy downtroden who were denied approach in the name of caste to fecilities which othes were enjoing.So they dind't consider any economic yardstick. Today the scenerio has copletely changed.More than expected percentage of them have come up but at the cost of the progress of Brahmins speceally in Tamil nadu.That is why Our members are heavily discussing this subject. Time for rethinking on reservation has come up.

 

[nachi naga]

after given due deliberation,i think reservation policy should continue becoz its advantageous to brahmins spurring them to higher acheivements.even though the going is tuff for brahmins,but reservation must stay.this rot that started in 1900's must stew somemore,before a violent explosion of a gargantuan proportion will be witnessed by Indians.The exploiter's will get exposed and violently killed.My only unhappiness,those leaders tottering on to 70 -80 's years age will escape,unscathed,who are the root cause of this perpetuated rot.

 

[Nara]

Aha, Shri. Nara. You mean to say you agree with my statement here?? I thought you were never for the varna system as you found it discriminative. May be I am missing something here?

Anand, Yes, what you are missing is the opening phrase of my comment, "We may come from different perspectives".

Let me explain.

I think the Varna system, even if the intention was not nefarious, by its very nature can only degenerate into the oppressive and exploitative system that it is. Therefore, it must be thrown out.

You also want to throw it out, but for a different reason.

Now you read what I said, "We may come from different perspectives, but we here meet again, at a place different from American hegemony where we met earlier."

Hope this explains ....

 

[happyhindu]

Sri Sangom Sir,

I just want to bring one actual incident.

I just made an appeal in our forum some time back for helping fishermen community children with good education under the following thread

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/sponso...request-help-dayananda-saraswathi-school.html

Believe me or not, the donations which we received based on my appeal are all from brahmins only.

For an Indian salary earner, Rs.1000 or Rs 500 donation is a big thing. But an NRI, making say 100 USD donation is a very small thing.

All the donations received were from Brahmin community people in India. One NRI member met me recently and has committed to make some payment for the cause.

It only proves that fighting for daliths and at the same time brahmin bashing here is very easy. I may not be surprised if some other religion may be funding them to create problems for brahmins here.

Literally helping the fisherman with good education is very difficult but abusing brahmins here is very easy.

Let us be careful with such guys here.

All the best

Shri RVR,

1) If you were to make an appeal on a forum for tamil brahmins, obviously the donors wud be tamil brahmins. It does not mean that non-brahmins are not doing anything.

2) Asking questions does not mean 'bashing'.

3) Just bcoz some people raise questions that need to be addressed from the scriptural point of view, that does not mean that such folk are funded by other religions. For me, i am a hindu and therefore i am bothered about hinduism.

I raised questions about the insistence of the brahmin priests who wanted varna system to be enforced / to stay. I asked what can be done about such priests and about their points of view. Not surprisingly I have not received replies (except from nachinaga, sangom, and a note from anand).

 

[RVR]

Indian constitution is supreme and all the scriptures have been superseded with the adoption of the constitution. At the same time the Indian constitution gives enough freedom to practice individual faiths giving enough protection.

If some body violates the constitution, there are courts which could be approached for remedy. Instead of approaching the appropriate authorities for remedy, there is no point in raising such issues here.

When it comes to helping the poor and downtrodden of the deprived communities, it is only the brahmin community members here who are really contributing.

I earnestly request other community members here not to spoil the good will this forum members are creating with the really deprived communities. We are bothered about present generation members of the deprived community and also want to create conducive atmosphere for the future generations.

Digging the past is not going to help anybody. Entire Europe was fighting with each other till seventy years back but now they have formed an European Union and also a Common Currency. Let us learn from such unity and replicate it in India where people have different religions, castes and languages.

In our school at Pazhaverkadu, we admit fishermen community members belonging to Hindu, Christian and Muslim students. Eventhough it is promoted by Hindu group, we would like to see all the children of fisherman community irrespective of their faith acquire knowledge. The donations given here goes to all these children.

Cost of educating a single child is roughly Rs.4000 per annum in our school. We charge just Rs.1800 to 2700 per child and make it absolutely free for some of them also. The donations which we received here is able to fill the gap. Off course we get donations through other sources also.

Let us the see the light of knowledge at every deprived community home.

By digging the past and bringing divisive topics, let us not spoil the right atmosphere prevailing in this forum

All the best

 

[RVR]

I wish everybody visit the website of our Past President Abdul Kalam. His father was a fisherman and in the fishermen community school, God only knows, many Abdul Kalams are being created.

www.abdulkalam.com

All the best

 

[nachi naga]

அமி மாச் பிஷுன் பாலோ பாஷி i love fish,fisher men/women ,they are warrior's of sea .they are hot

in response to happy hindu,if we read bhagavath gita,lord explain's that he is the living being in all.so,why did we classify?it's based on gunam's.it is easier to administrate.so,by birth is the least line of resistance those day's.nowaday's it's becoming popular to live life as brahmana aka knower of brahman.

 

[RVR]

One more thing which I would like to make it clear here. My association is just with Dayananda Saraswathi School only.

So far I have not met Swami Dayananda Saraswathi and also I am not a follower of him.

I am not promoting Swami Dayananda Saraswathi in this forum.

I always keep a distance from all the God men

All the best

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

... do you realize that there are NO, I repeat NO, studies

I do not agree with this statement despite the dramatic way in which you are stating it.

The very study you cited states the system had some impact. They suggest, as all academics do, further research is needed to examine the impact of specific policies. You may take the phrase the authors use -- "some impact" -- as too small and not worth the trouble. But, that would only be your opinion.

The authors clearly state that even though in percentage terms college graduation rate did not improve for Dalits, but in absolute terms there has been greater number of Dalits entering and graduating college.

Further, the study clearly states that in comparison to the control group the Dalits did benefit. Let me quote this statement from page 263 of the paper:

"... more dalit children are completing high school, and less social selection is occurring at the early stage. If this argument holds, we should see a widening gap between the two groups (dalit and upper caste Hindus and others), and the fact that this gap is not widened even more (as it has for Muslims) could be due to affirmative action."
​

In their academic-speak the authors are clearly stating that the reservation system does work.

They further state:

"The hypothesis of maximally maintained inequality (Raftery and Hout 1993) suggests that until the dominant group group attains educational saturation at any given educational level (estimated around 95% completion level), educational inequalities will continue to persist even in era of educational expansion at about the same level."
(bottom of page 267) Emphasis mine.
​

The authors are suggesting that we need to reach a saturation point of 95% or thereabouts at every level of educational transition. Then we are done, no more need for any affirmative policy.

This is why I stated, not the authors, that we must redouble our efforts as more and more dalit children successfully complete high school and try to enter college.

By the way, as you demand 'scientific proof' from those who think that the system is unfair at worst and ineffective at the best, how about you?

Gladly, you have done that for me, the paper you cited shows the beneficiary population did benefit.

By the way, one should ask, if it is such a small difference, then what is the need for the quota at all?

The marginal difference between cut off marks shows the "merit" argument is untenable, that is all. Because of the sheer number of applicants, even a small difference in cut off marks results in large difference in rank which affects students from oppressed classes more. This can be seen from the difference in ranks among the different caste categories.

Again, you have chosen to selectively answer my very many points about the fairness of this system today.

I am under the impression I answered all your questions in my post #145. If I have left anything out please point it out to me. If I can't find a counter argument that I am persuaded by, I will gladly concede.

Secondly, you should know that my heart goes to pieces

This is not personal. I have no right, nor do I want that right, to judge anybody. We are only discussing the efficacy, or fairness/unfairness of the reservation policy.

Please tell me what foundation you have to assert that 'one needs to redouble the effort on the quota system' (Iam paraphrasing - may I say the authors also say this), while the conclusions of this study decidedly say something else.

Redoubling our efforts is my considered policy suggestion. The authors have not suggested any policy prescription. But their thrust in the entire paper is to counter the argument that the reservation system has not helped, and that the creamy layer must be exempted from the reservation system. I have already cited many passages from the paper in support of this. I will leave it at that.

And the most maddening thing is that there are other, more effective ways available than the quota system to improve the conditions of all poor (see the improvement in primary/secondary education levels of the disadvantaged segment in the study).

This is your stand and there are others who take this stand. But, policy recommendations must be made based on unbiased analysis. Finally, the decision is a political one, you and I cannot change that reality.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....When it comes to helping the poor and downtrodden of the deprived communities, it is only the brahmin community members here who are really contributing.

The "here" you have used in the sentence above (I have highlighted it) means what? Does it refer to this forum, or Chennai city, or Tamil Nadu as a whole, or all over the globe including the Brahmin diaspora?

In post 162 also you used the word "here" and it was ambiguous to me. In that post you said:

"It only proves that fighting for daliths and at the same time brahmin bashing here is very easy. I may not be surprised if some other religion may be funding them to create problems for brahmins here. "
​

Initially I assumed the "here" was Tamil Nadu, but when I see the same "here" again, I am confused.

Also,

I earnestly request other community members here not to spoil the good will this forum members

Now, this is even more confusing. This "here" has to be our forum as you are making a request. You are directing this request to members belonging to "other community". Since the word "community" is used as euphemism for caste, I suppose your request is directed at NB members of the forum. The only active NB member that I am aware of is HH. Are you implying that HH's posts have the effect of spoiling the goodwill you are creating with the fishermen community? That does not make any sense to me. There must be some other explanation.

If I am wrong about the above please correct me by giving a reasonable and plausible explanation. If I am right, I think it is not at all fair. She has done no such thing as disrupting your fund raising efforts for the school.

Please clarify.

Cheers!

p.s. It may very well be true that only Brahmins "here" contribute to the charity work you are doing. But there are lots of charity work that a lot of people are involved in, both Brahmin and NB. A lot of financial support is given by both B and NB. I am also confident that a lot of NBs financially support Brahminical Matams. So, I am not really sure what you are getting at with this refrain that only Brahmins contribute.

 

[happyhindu]

Indian constitution is supreme and all the scriptures have been superseded with the adoption of the constitution. At the same time the Indian constitution gives enough freedom to practice individual faiths giving enough protection.

Shri RVR,

Are you saying that individuals who practice untouchability should be left alone? I suppose you have not understood the indian constitution. It does allow freedom of faith, but there are acts that disallow and make untouchability punishable by law. Individuals and institutions that practice untouchability are not exempted from the law on the basis of freedom of faith (such a 'freedom' is not freedom, it is misuse and abuse of freedom).

In today's times 'dalits' require:

1) The right to worship: So-called 'upper-castes' can insist that 'untouchables' have to bathe and skip non-veg on the days the enter a temple. Yes, for some temples, certain rules can be laid down. But no one can insist that dalits cannot enter a temple "by birth". However, even today there are priests who debar 'dalits' from entering temples because of birth. And self-appointed 'kshatriyas' who enforce such things using fear.

2) The right to education: Similarly, in this day and age, no one can insist that shudras have no right to study. But again, there are priests who insist upon it, and folks who discriminate against dalits in schools.

If some body violates the constitution, there are courts which could be approached for remedy. Instead of approaching the appropriate authorities for remedy, there is no point in raising such issues here.

Why do you think there is no point in raising such issues here? This is an open forum specifically meant for brahmins. Obviously such questions will be asked here. And am sure, priests or some of their relatives or their acquaintainces, will be reading stuff here.

The Kashi Tulsi Temple priest openly says he does not accept the Indian constitution. He has been jailed for practicing untouchability. That's the maximum the law presently can do -- only jail an individual for a few days / months. Beyond that the law has not devised a punishment yet.

As long as brahmanical establishments perpetuate doctrines of untouchability, based on the rigid 'by-birth' caste system, the ideology of discrimination will continue to be perpetuated.

Around me, i know of elders who do not practice untouchability (but however, will not accept NBs as priests). As such, i may hope that once the generation of my elders is over, then this untouchability ideology saga and non-acceptance of NBs as priests, will be "phased out". But you see, the elders are influenced by their parents, and grandparents who in turn were following their acharyas. So who is to blame - the individuals, or the doctrine? Imo, its the doctrine that needs to be addressed. It cannot be passed down into the future generations.

Each time, anyone raises questions on birth-based doctrines, some folk see it as an attack on all brahmins, or on the whole of hinduism, why?

As regards the brahmanical establishments and priests, is it so difficult to merely discard a few things from the scriptural pov in today's world? If already no one is following the 'shastras' then why are priests / brahmanical establishments vociferously advocating such things ? And is it true that no one (absolutely no one) is practicing discrimination today? Both in tamilnadu and the rest of India? (btw, its not about just tamilnadu alone).

If you are interested in certain things, good for you. If folks like me and Nara are interested in openly discussing the caste issue from the scriptural pov, i do not think it should bother you. There is no need to imagine things about goodwill. If you do not like certain topics, ofcourse you can keep away from them. Nobody is forced to participate in or read up all threads.

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara,

My replies are in blue.

QUOTE=Nara;52564]The "here" you have used in the sentence above (I have highlighted it) means what? Does it refer to this forum, or Chennai city, or Tamil Nadu as a whole, or all over the globe including the Brahmin diaspora?

I have already informed that including one Non Resident Indian who has committed to support, most of the members in India are supporting the cause.

In post 162 also you used the word "here" and it was ambiguous to me. In that post you said:

[I]"It only proves that fighting for daliths and at the same time brahmin bashing here is very easy. I may not be surprised if some other religion may be funding them to create problems for brahmins here. "
[/I]​

Initially I assumed the "here" was Tamil Nadu, but when I see the same "here" again, I am confused.

I have already informed in another thread

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/sponso...lp-dayananda-saraswathi-school.html#post52529

that Christian Missionaries are active in the area with an ulterior motive of conversion.
When some members in our forum attempting to dig the past and create rift between Brahmins and SC/ST, I have a suspicion that missionaries may be funding them to keep the differences alive.

After this school became active, schools run by other religions have closed, a madarasa and a missionary included. I learnt in my physics class, `every action will have an equal and opposite reaction'. May be that law of physics is playing here.

Also,
Now, this is even more confusing. This "here" has to be our forum as you are making a request. You are directing this request to members belonging to "other community". Since the word "community" is used as euphemism for caste, I suppose your request is directed at NB members of the forum. The only active NB member that I am aware of is HH. Are you implying that HH's posts have the effect of spoiling the goodwill you are creating with the fishermen community? That does not make any sense to me. There must be some other explanation.

There are several members who doesn't belong to Brahmin community in this forum. Brahmins have no problem in supporting daliths. Brahmins have supported Mayavathi to become Chief Minister of the largest state in the country. It may happen in other parts of the country including Tamilnadu. So far Tamilnadu didn't elect a dalith Chief Minister and brahmins in Tamilnadu will whole heartedly support a dalith CM.

Dravidian parties are made up of caste Hindus and are not at all interested in uplifting daliths. They manage to keep literacy level at 73.47 percentage inspite of ruling the state for several decades. Even among the literates, those who aspire for higher level education may be much lower. Deliberately they have understaffed the Governemnt funded schools so that daliths doesn't cross the school level to come for higher studies where reservation rule applies.Most of the illiterates in the above may comprise of daliths, muslims and women. It helps the caste Hindus to corner the reservations both in education and employment.

Daliths and Brahmins didn't had caste conflicts within Tamilnadu for several decades. Kizhavenmani conflict were 44 daliths were burnt alive was between a land lord Irinjur Gopala Krishana Naidu vs dalith farm labour.

http://www.flonnet.com/fl2301/stories/20060127001608400.htm

Thevar vs Dalith, Vanniar vs Dalith etc are the normal things in Tamilnadu.

Two years back 1000 dalith christians in Tirunelveli reconverted to Hinduism because of the problems created by Christian Nadars.Thread India: 1,000 Dalit Christians reconvert to Hinduism | Faith Freedom International | BoardReader

Even after conversion to christianity, both Nadars and daliths have problems of living together. Blaming Hindu religion is not at all correct.

Now it is the duty of the present day brahmins in Tamilnadu to help the daliths with better literacy and vocational training. AIMS for Seva movement is trying to do that and personally I am associating myself with the movement. It may not be to the liking of the caste Hindus both inside the forum as well as outside. Outside the forum atleast they tell me openly not to empower the daliths since it is not recorded but inside the forum no body tells the same openly. However when the contributions came only from brahmin community members here, I am able to feel that brahmins are not against daliths. Let us not talk about individuals of other communities and let us bother about our community as well as SC/ST communities.





If I am wrong about the above please correct me by giving a reasonable and plausible explanation. If I am right, I think it is not at all fair. She has done no such thing as disrupting your fund raising efforts for the school.

Please clarify.

Cheers!

p.s. It may very well be true that only Brahmins "here" contribute to the charity work you are doing. But there are lots of charity work that a lot of people are involved in, both Brahmin and NB. A lot of financial support is given by both B and NB. I am also confident that a lot of NBs financially support Brahminical Matams. So, I am not really sure what you are getting at with this refrain that only Brahmins contribute.[/QUOTE]

Let us not bring Hindu mutts here. Since our beneficiaries belong to all the religions, we are not involving pure religious mutts.

AIMS for Seva movement, even though promoted by Hindus, doesn't discriminate the beneficiary based on religion. As I wrote yesterday, let us create Abdul Kalams among muslims. We have decided to give continuous guidance till each and every student of fisherman community reaches a maturity level. We are not attempting to reconvert other religious students to Hinduism also. Let them follow their faith. Our objective is to empower the under privilaged and this can done under `Aims for Seva' plat form. We don't even entertain extreme Hindu outfits in our movement.

All the best

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara,

Please see the following news item

Dalit attacked for walking on caste Hindu's farm | Ilaiyaraja | Dalit Colony | Indian Express


Dravidian parties(comprising of caste Hindus) are ruling the state and no brahmin is involved in the whole episode.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

There are several members who doesn't belong to Brahmin community in this forum. Brahmins have no problem in supporting daliths. Brahmins have supported Mayavathi to become Chief Minister of the largest state in the country. It may happen in other parts of the country including Tamilnadu. So far Tamilnadu didn't elect a dalith Chief Minister and brahmins in Tamilnadu will whole heartedly support a dalith CM.

Please read up how much (if at all) Mayavati has benefitted dalits in UP. You are speaking of politics and political support, possibly for the betterment of brahmins as priority and next for the betterment of dalits. I am speaking of the scriptures and POVs of priests that affects the lives of dalits directly.

Dravidian parties are made up of caste Hindus and are not at all interested in uplifting daliths. They manage to keep literacy level at 73.47 percentage inspite of ruling the state for several decades. Even among the literates, those who aspire for higher level education may be much lower. Deliberately they have understaffed the Governemnt funded schools so that daliths doesn't cross the school level to come for higher studies where reservation rule applies.Most of the illiterates in the above may comprise of daliths, muslims and women. It helps the caste Hindus to corner the reservations both in education and employment.

Dravidian parties may be corrupt, bad, mean, (...fill in whatever adjectives you want..). ....Please note that literacy rate of 73 percent is much higher than other states. If government schools were under-funded, how come dalit kids are getting medical admission under merit these days? The government should next take up the role of making education for such meritorious candidates free of cost.

Daliths and Brahmins didn't had caste conflicts within Tamilnadu for several decades. Kizhavenmani conflict were 42 daliths were burnt alive was between a land lord Irinjur Gopala Krishana Naidu vs dalith farm labour. Thevar vs Dalith, Vanniar vs Dalith etc are the normal things in Tamilnadu.

You are speaking of Keezhvenmani episode that happened in 1968. There is some good description here: [L-I] [ INDIA ] ML Update Vol.7 No. 2, 8 -- 14 January 2004 - msg#00019 - politics.leninism.international Such acts are to be condemned in no small ways. Was reading this and realised that the work is actually incomplete: http://www.hindu.com/2009/12/26/stories/2009122659390600.htm Krishnammal Jeganathan is doing a good job.

You know Shri RVR, i myself have heard tamilians speaking about (or blaming) the telugu nayaks for bringing brahmins and dharmashastras into tamilnadu. According to them, before vijayanagar happened, no tamilian king followed dharmashastras and there was no spiritual discrimination amongst tamilians. To them, the differentiation on the basis of occupation was without any spiritual basis ascribed to it, until the brahmins came and designated them with the lows. So their hatered was / is not just for brahmins alone. Tamil nationalists hate telugu people just as much.

If you read some Vijayanagar accounts, you will know of the close alliance between the rulers and brahmins then. Caste system was strictly enforced. The rulers did the part of ensuring that the dharma laws were enforced since ofcourse brahmins never got their hands dirty with the sword themselves. And ryots and rebellion by farmers was not infrequent. So we cannot really claim that dalits and brahmins did not have caste conflict in tamilnadu in the past. Even today, there are brahmins who hold on to the laws of the shastras and do not recognise the constituted law of the land. And till date, the so-called warriors try to keep dalits oppresssed using fear and violence. Where will that lead to? What wud happen if the dalits were to retaliate enmasse?

Two years back 1000 dalith christians in Tirunelveli reconverted to Hinduism because of the problems created by Christian Nadars.Thread India: 1,000 Dalit Christians reconvert to Hinduism | Faith Freedom International | BoardReader

Even after conversion to christianity, both Nadars and daliths have problems of living together. Blaming Hindu religion is not at all correct.

Have you seen the movie "India Untouched"? And the christians speaking in it?

Now it is the duty of the present day brahmins in Tamilnadu to help the daliths with better literacy and vocational training. AIMS for Seva movement is trying to do that and personally I am associating myself with the movement. It may not be to the liking of the caste Hindus both inside the forum as well as outside. Outside the forum atleast they tell me openly not to empower the daliths since it is not recorded but inside the forum no body tells the same openly. However when the contributions came only from brahmin community members here, I am able to feel that brahmins are not against daliths. Let us not talk about individuals of other communities and let us bother about our community as well as SC/ST communities.

Not only brahmins, it is the duty of everyone to help dalits. And yes not only brahmins, there were and are NBs too involved in charity work. Again its not about individual brahmins. Nobody is practicing untouchability, for that matter, these days (i mean, those who i know). Its about the brahmanical establishments who insist upon it. There is no need for them to propagate such caste and untouchability rubbish.

 

[Raghy]

What a thread! Such eye-opening messages!

Even if it is 'unfair', the poor and under preveliged persons, mainly living in villages and small towns 'should pay the price' for belonging to 'previleged castes'! Why? In the past, persons belonging to the same caste discriminated other castes and gained advantages! Wow! Try punishing someone for their deceased parents crime lawfully, even if they are enjoying the benefits of the crime.....unthinkable; is it? But in the case of caste brahmins such simple logic don't apply!

We can't blame all the Germans for the holocaust.....We have to take in to account of so many Germans who helped the Jews.

We can't blame all the British for the atrocities against Indians during the British Raj...We have to take in to account of so many English who treated Indians with dignity.

The above are two examples.....I can write more such scenarios. But in the case of caste Brahmins, no such considerations can be allowed; if anyone is unfortunate enough to grew up in a caste Brahmin home is enough..he/she and their decendents should be discriminated! Of course, this is a nice logic!

This thread is an eye opener for me. I can never forget the attempt made to justify the 'unfair' discrimination of poor under priveleged caste Brahmins. I am humanist. I see a human first; then only I worry about religion or caste, if necessasary. I will provide as much as help as possible to bring comfort such affected persons.

I am not really interested in the academics about the pros and cons of caste based system. For me excrement is just that; just because it happens to be yellowish in colour, I can not accept that as sandal paste. I also don't subscribe to the idea that one has to swallow that, just because he/she is born/grew up in a caste Brahmin home.

Governemt of India should hang its head in shame for sanctioning such 'legal' discrimination. Two wrong things can never become a 'right thing'. Discrimination of Dalits was wrong; discrimination of caste brahmins is wrong too. One need not be a 'rocket scientist' to understand that simple logic.

My offer to help is not limited to Caste Brahmins only.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Sri Raghy said,

"This thread is an eye opener for me. I can never forget the attempt made to justify the 'unfair' discrimination of poor under priveleged caste Brahmins. I am humanist. I see a human first; then only I worry about religion or caste, if necessasary. I will provide as much as help as possible to bring comfort such affected persons"


Thanks for understanding the condition of poor and under privileged members of our community. Let us also support the under privileged sections of daliths and other deprived classes.

I am really moved by your above statement.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Raghy,

My pov is just this:

There is no need for priests and brahmanical establishments to propagate caste and untouchability rubbish by citing shastras, and that too in this day and age over open media. This possibly wud lead to bigger problems than what they can imagine.

If the same priests / brahmanical establishments were to declare certain portions of the shastras invalid for the current times, that wud be a welcome change. It is totally ridiculous to stand on the pov that the dalits must be denied temple entry and the right to education.

Regards.

 

[Raghy]

Raghy,

My pov is just this:

There is no need for priests and brahmanical establishments to propagate caste and untouchability rubbish by citing shastras, and that too in this day and age over open media. This possibly wud lead to bigger problems than what they can imagine.

If the same priests / brahmanical establishments were to declare certain portions of the shastras invalid for the current times, that wud be a welcome change. It is totally ridiculous to stand on the pov that the dalits must be denied temple entry and the right to education.

Regards.

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

I am in total agreement with you. It is wrong to discrinate dalits or any persons belonging to any community. It is wrong. I have no use for such matams and priests. I don't think such priests would ever declare against sashtras. It is very unfortunate. Everyone should ignore such priests; but it is not happening. Such priests are not to be taken as the spokesperson for the majority Hindus though. But, such priests cause unrest amoung the Hindus.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

I am in total agreement with you. It is wrong to discrinate dalits or any persons belonging to any community. It is wrong. I have no use for such matams and priests. I don't think such priests would ever declare against sashtras. It is very unfortunate. Everyone should ignore such priests; but it is not happening. Such priests are not to be taken as the spokesperson for the majority Hindus though. But, such priests cause unrest amoung the Hindus.

Cheers!

Thanks, HH. I did not have the time but did go through the part of those so called priests. I don't subscribe to them . To me they come across as fundamental Hindus who have never understood the Vedas and the spirit of it. A few rotten apples you do find everywhere, unfortunately. The shastras talk about varnas and not castes and in any case there are a lot of interpolations and the unwritten rule is the shastras have to be understood in the spirit of the Vedas so anything which violates that spirit has to be rejected as an interpolation.

Honestly, if you ask me the varna system has to be practiced in its entirety or rejected in its entirety. no point practicing those which suits us and reject the rest. meaning I am not for any kind of discrimination, whatsoever, whether by brahmins or anyone.

Thanks

Thanks Anand and Raghy. Both of you are the only ones that clearly mention rejection of discrimination. Apart from you both, there is Shri Nara and Shri Sangom who reject such stuff. So 4 people rejecting scriptural discrimnation out of the handful of posters here is not bad at all. Thanks again.

 

[RVR]

United Nations Human Right report on dalith atrocities in India

Please go through the following report of UN agency on atrocities against daliths in India and particularly Tamilnadu where caste Hindus are ruling.

UNHCR | Refworld | Broken People: Caste Violence Against India's "Untouchables"

Tamilnadu occupies No.1 spot in the report and violence perpetuated by caste Hindus with the help of Police is atrocious.

Since Dravidian parties are ruling Tamilnadu for the past few decades, police is also favouring caste Hindus against daliths

All the best

 

[Nara]

Dear RVR sir,

If some body violates the constitution, there are courts which could be approached for remedy.

Did you see India Untouched? Are you seriously suggesting that the little girls who are not permitted to draw water from the village well should go to court for remedy? Often times the police is in cahoots with the upper castes and any attempt to lodge formal complaints will be quite injurious to their health and honor.

When some members in our forum attempting to dig the past and create rift between Brahmins and SC/ST, I have a suspicion that missionaries may be funding them to keep the differences alive.

For any such suspicion to be taken seriously, you must provide some names and instances of what you call "creating rift". I invite you to do that, or else, I request to refrain from making such vague accusations.

... no brahmin is involved in the whole episode.

Yes, you are right, no Brahmin is directly involved in these atrocities, they don't have any of the kind of blood in their hands that can be washed away with a little soap and water – that kind of blood is on the hands of the monster they designed and let loose.

But tell me one thing, for all this distancing from these horrendous caste atrocities, can a single leader representing the Brahmin orthodoxy, the orthodoxy the secular Brahmins revere as god walking on earth, stand up and condemn caste which is at the root of this violence? People need to think about this a little.

Let us not bring Hindu mutts here. Since our beneficiaries belong to all the religions, we are not involving pure religious mutts.

Why not? You made the claim only Brahmins contributed to your cause. So why do you now say we must not bring B and NB contribution to B and NB causes?

For every B who contributes to NB causes that you sponsor, there are probably scores of NBs contributing to both B and NB causes. I was once told that without NB contributions Kanchi Sankara Matam will be bankrupt. That, I am sure is an exaggeration, but it has some truth to it. So, when you claim that only Bs are contributing, I think it is perfectly legitimate to point to the fact that NBs contribute to a variety of causes, Dalit causes and Brahmin causes alike.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Prof Nara,

My replies are in blue.

There are several members who doesn't belong to Brahmin community in this forum. Brahmins have no problem in supporting daliths.

Dear RVR sir, in this post all I wanted was some clarification, what you meant by "here", and, in what way the only active and known NB in this forum, or at least in this thread, who is HH, disrupted your fund raising efforts.

You did not address either of these two questions. Instead you have raised an assortment of issues. I have responded to some of them here. I want this post to be only about the two questions, what is "here" and why you think HH is disrupting your fund raising. Hope you will address them directly.

Thank you, and regards....