Flaws in Advaita - Real or Perceived?

[sravna]

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The most concrete and direct evidence comes from the world of physics. One cannnot explain the origin of universe without abandoning the notion of space and time.

 

[renuka]

read this..simple and nice:


Dvaita, Advaita and Vishistadvaita

Discourse of Sathya Sai Baba during the Summer Course in Spirituality and Indian Culture
held for College Students at Brindavan, Whitefield, Bangalore District in May 1972
Published by Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust
Web posted at Feb 17, 2002

In the Atma-Tathva all are eternal. In the world-sense all are ephemeral. Though we know that this body and the sense of the workaday world are purely ephemeral, we make the mistake of treating them as permanent. Atma-Tathva which is Jnana is permanent. Though we do not accept it, it still exists. It is above all experiences of losses and difficulties and nothing can shake it. This Atma-Tathva is the embodiment of truth. It is also the embodiment of delight or 'Ananda Swarupa'.

There are several passages in the Gita where the eternal existence of the soul has been referred to. Krishna says: "There was never a time when you were not there. All the others, Bhishma, Drona and others also have been ever there. The world is also there always. I who am the Iswara, you who are the Jiva and this world which is Jagat - all the three have always been existing." These three, Jiva, Iswara and Prakriti have been in existence at all times - they were there even before the creation, and they will continue to be there. Though the physical bodies may be undergoing transformation, this Atma-Tathva remains eternal and changeless.

There are three approaches or three schools of philosophy which have been propounded to enable us to know this Tathva. These three are Dvaita, Advaita and Visishtadvaita. Let us first try to understand what is Dvaita or duality. Dvaita propounds that Jiva and Prakriti always exist, are always there and they will never become one. The permanence of these two entities, though they are different is accepted.

Visishtadvaita postulates 'Chit' and 'Achit' in the phenomenal world and accepts the phenomena of appearance and illusion. It states that both are true and valid. Visishtadvaita has also established the oneness of Jagat, which is Jada or inert, and of Jiva, which is full of consciousness. Visishtadvaita also says that Jada and Chaitanya, i.e., inertness and consciousness, are the manifestations of the same principle of divinity and therefore are considered equally valid. Because these two entities cannot merge with each other, they have been postulated as different aspects of the same form and as part and parcel of the same principle.

Jagat, the world, Jiva, the consciousness, and Purusha, the Supreme are not three separate entities but are one and the same from the ultimate point of view. The greatness of Visishtadvaita lies in proclaiming their unity. Though the appearances may be different and there may be varieties of experience, it is asserted that in all these, there is one thing present, namely, the unifying spirit. Followers of Visishtadvaita use the analogy of gold. Though the ornaments may be of different shape, the gold is the same. They go even a step further. If God has not these subtle and gross bodies, the very nature of God will be incomplete. I will give an example. Let us take the kingdom and his people. Without the king, there cannot be the kingdom; without the people, there can be no kingdom, and without the people, there can be no king. They are all interdependent. Because all these three are in a way inextricably interconnected with one another, Visishtadvaita has propounded the unity of the three entities. When we take into consideration the nature of the king and the people then we shall be able to grasp that there is also the principle of non-duality or Advaita here. The king also is one among the people and he is also a man. The king is the lawgiver and the people are those who are regulated and bound by the law. Though the ruler and the ruled may appear to be separate, as human beings they are one and the same.

Just as we are told about the oneness of Jada and the Chaitanya, we find Chaitanya or consciousness in inertness and we find the features of inertness in consciousness as well. Therefore, in a way they are inseparable. The inertness cannot exist without consciousness. Consciousness cannot exist without inertness. In the workaday world, we may mistake and think that conscious force cannot enter into inert matter and vice-versa. But that is a mistaken idea. We all believe that this whole world is permeated by Sabda or sound. But where there is movement or motion, there alone does Sabda originate. We close our eyes many a time every minute. As our eyelids move, they do make a little noise, but the noise is so inaudible that we are unaware of it. Because it is inaudible, we cannot deny the presence of sound. Just as we are not able to recognise the sound which is inaudible, in the same way we are not able to recognise consciousness in Jada and we are not able to recognise the element of Jada in consciousness.

There are two aspects present in this illusion. One is 'Parinama' or evolution. The other is 'Vivarta'. Vivarta is the property which makes us think that there is a change though the substance remains the same. It is made to appear to have a different shape and form. When we are walking alone, we may come across a rope but get deluded to imagine it as a serpent. The rope does not go and the serpent does not come. It is all an illusion. Vivarta is the quality which makes us forget the real thing and makes us impose upon that, some other thing which is not there. It is the effect of Maya. Parinama is the property of evolution or change like milk turning into curd. If there is no milk, we cannot change it into curd. Parinama is that which changes what is there. Maya is present both in Parinama and Vivarta.

Today we live under the influence of Vivarta. Though we are Atma Swarupa, we forget the supreme reality and we live with that Dehabhranti or the body illusion. We mistake our ephemeral existence to be the real existence. We are not afraid of the rope, but we are terribly afraid of the serpent. We are not afraid of the Atma but we are afraid of life. Though we are Atma Swarupa and should be free from fear, unfortunately we are lost in fear and illusion.

'Upadhis' or containers apart, there is only one reality, just as there is only one sun shining in the sky. When we fill a thousand pots with water, the same sun is reflected in these thousand pots. Because the thousand pots are there and they are filled with water, which has the quality of reflection, the one sun seems to be split up into a thousand suns. This is only a feeling and is not true. The truth is that there is only one sun shining in the sky. Likewise, this body may be compared to the pot which is filled with water and the same Atma is reflected in each pot, and appears to be separate.

Several persons put the question: "Swami, please tell us where the Atma goes after the death of the body?" When the pot breaks and the water spills on the ground, where does the sun, which has hitherto been reflected in the water, go? The sun has not come and has not gone. But it has appeared as a reflection because there is water in the pot. And when the pot is broken and the water has run out, the reflection has disappeared.

There is another question. If the same sun is reflected in all pots, would not all the reflections have the same value? The reflection has the same value but the pots are of different value. One pot may be an earthen pot, another may be one of copper, another of brass, another of silver, another of gold. Therefore, the value of the pot varies according to one's wealth, one's position, one's education, but the Atma Swarupa has the same value. So all these differences are illusory. They are created by things relating to the body. The Atma-Tathva is one and indivisible.

On the bank of a river, once a group of children were tending their cows. It was monsoon time and all of a sudden a furious current of water developed. Because it was a fast current, one bear which had slipped into the water was drawn into the midstream and was being carried away. One of the boys looked at the floating mass, and from a distance, it appeared to him to be a bundle of blankets floating in the water. He said to his companions, "I shall jump into the water and get the bundle of blankets out," and so he jumped into the water. With the mistaken idea that it was a bundle of blankets, the boy embraced with his hands the bear. Then the bear also embraced him with its own hands. However much the boy tried to extricate himself, the bear did not leave him. It held him fast. The boys on the shore shouted, "Oh, my dear companion, leave that bundle and come away." The boy in the water, struggling to escape cried out, "Though I want to escape from it, it does not allow me to escape."

So in this river of life, Maya plays like the bear and we mistake it to be a bundle of blankets. Hoping that it would offer us solace, comfort and happiness, we jump into the river and try to catch it. At a later stage when we want to extricate ourselves from it, we find it impossible to do so. This illusion is created by Maya but the divine principle is always one. Visishtadvaita has been teaching from time immemorial that though the forms are different, there is only one Purusha which is the unity in the diversity and multiplicity of forms.

Coming to Advaita, we have to understand the word to mean non-duality. What is not two is Advaita. What is that which is not two? Brahman alone is not two. In the Gita, Lord Krishna taught this principle to Arjuna at several places. He says for instance:

"Vrishneenaam Vaasudevosmi; Pandavanam Dhananjaya."
"Among the Vrishnees, I am Vaasudeva. Because I am the son of Vasudeva, I am Vaasudeva. Among the Pandavas I am Arjuna."
Though He is one, here He represents Himself as two. He further says, "I am Eswara, you are the Jiva, and the heroes who are ranged against you constitute the Jagat, the world. This Jagat is all reflected as in a mirror. You are considering that you are separate and all these people are separate from you. You are thinking that you and they are different. Jiva, Eswara and Prakriti, all three entities have been there from time immemorial." Then Arjuna asked, "If these entities, Jiva, Eswara and Prakriti have been ever in existence and Jiva and Eswara are one, how do you know about Jagat and why do I not know anything about it? When you and I are one, how is it that you know and I do not know? Please tell me the secret of this." Krishna said, "Arjuna! You also can know, but you do not focus your mind upon the goal. Therefore, you do not know. But my mind is always steadily riveted on that reality. Therefore, I know it. And that is the essential difference between us two." Arjuna could not grasp this. He said, "You are trying to hoodwink me, oh, Krishna!" To this, Krishna said, "Arjuna! I shall never utter false or deceitful words. I am Satya Swarupa. Therefore there is no place for falsehood or deceit in My words. It is because of the effect of Maya that you have become subjected to illusion and you are attributing falsehood even to Me!"

Then He wanted to teach Arjuna by an example. He asked Arjuna, "How old are you?" Arjuna said, "I am eighty years old." Krishna asked, "Tell me, three years ago, on such and such a day, where were you?" Arjuna could not recollect and said: "Lord! I do not remember where I was on that day three years ago." Krishna said, "Then you do not remember where you were. You accept you were in a particular place three years ago. If you were not there how could you be here today? You admit today that you do not know where you were three years ago." Krishna patted Arjuna on his back and continued, "Do not feel embarrassed. I shall put to you another question. Please tell me how old you were when king Drupada was bound and brought by you to your kingdom." Arjuna replied, "I was at that time 16 years old, Oh Lord!" Krishna then asked, "Do you remember when you got married to Subhadra?" Arjuna said immediately, 'I certainly remember, I was married in my twenty-second year." Then Krishna questioned: "An event such as the marriage which took place fifty years ago and the incident of bringing king Drupada bound to your capital which happened long long ago, are remembered by you but you do not remember what happened just three years ago. Why is it? The secret is this. The nature of Maya is that it makes you attach importance to some events such as birthdays and wedding days but not to others."

To experience joy and sorrow alike is the secret of Samadhi. Rama has been able to demonstrate this Samadhi quality, i.e., one who is not elated by joy and one who is not downcast or depressed by sorrow, however enormous it may be. Not only Rama, but all Avatars have demonstrated this state of Samadhi. Rama, who got ready for the coronation ceremony at 7 o'clock, at the same time and in the same stride, took the decision and left for the forest. He was not elated at the prospect of becoming the future king and he did not get depressed or frustrated when he was asked to go to the forest. Krishna always used to be smiling whether it was Rudrabhumi, the sacrificial field, or Yuddhabhumi the battlefield. Wherever He used to be, He remained an embodiment of Ananda. That was why His words which were uttered on the battlefield have acquired the name of Gita. Gita means song. We sing when we are happy. Does one sing when one is unhappy or sorry? When Krishna could sing even in the midst of a battle, it means that He can always remain cheerful and happy.

The real nature of Avataras is that they are always overflowing with the spirit of delight and joy. Just as the ocean rises and surges up when there is full moon in the sky, in the same way when I look at the devotees, My Heart overflows with limitless, boundless love for them. Everything is Rasa Swarupa. There can be no change in the attitude, in the affection and in the thoughts of God, but the ignorant attribute the changes they imagine or differences they see to God out of their petty-mindedness. When divine power fulfils some of our desires, we praise God, but when the same power does not satisfy our desires, we straightaway condemn Him. Man commits sin and he has to undergo the punishment for the sin. But then he says, "Oh God! You have no mercy, you are subjecting me to this punishment." People cannot stand test and trial.

People remember those days to which they attach some special significance and they do not forget them. Because they do not attach importance to other days, they do not find a place in their memory. And there lies the difference between Jiva and Deva. Jiva imagines some as necessary and others as unnecessary and dwells on differences. As far as Deva is concerned, there is nothing which is necessary for Him and which is not necessary for Him. He remains a spectator of all. For a spectator, the past, the present and the future are all the same. He can visualise all the three periods of time. He remains as Atma Swarupa during all the three periods of time.

Though God is one, as a result of our love for him, we establish different kinds of relationship with God. Some may address him as father, others as mother, others as Christ, others as Siva, others as Hari and so on. It is only the difference which is born out of illusion, but there is only one God behind all these relationships.

Here is an example which is within the range of experience of all. Everyday we take and enjoy Ghee, butter, buttermilk, curd etc. All these are ultimately derived from milk. Milk is Advaita. Butter is Visishtadvaita. Buttermilk is Dvaita. Both Dvaita and Visishtadvita are derived from Advaita. Therefore, it is said that wisdom is Advaita Darshanam. Wisdom reveals to us the Brahma Thatva. It is described as 'Sathyam Jnanam Anantham Brahma'. Brahma is that which is truth, that which is endless and that which is all knowing. The word Brahma is derived from the root 'Bruhi'. Bruhi means that which does not change. It is called Brahma-Thatva because it does not change and because it remains eternal. We must adopt the theory of 'Raso Vai Saha' in order to attain this Brahma-Thatva. The entire world or universe is born out of Rasa, God Himself, who is Rasa Swarupa. That which is born out of Rasa cannot be 'Nirasa' or devoid of Rasa.

Pundits classify Rasa into nine categories. They are called Navarasas. According to my view, there are no Navarasas or nine Rasas. There are only two Rasas. The emotions of Daya, Prema and Anugraha merge in Karuna Rasa. The emotions of Kama, Krodha and Lobha merge in Sringara Rasa. Sringara Rasa misleads us whereas Karuna Rasa leads us. Therefore, to recognise our duty, we must take recourse to Karuna Rasa. Only through Karuna Rasa, can we enjoy the proximity of the Lord. That is the real ecstasy or bliss. Karuna Rasa offers to us pure selfless love. Selfish love leads to an aspect of Sringara Rasa and that is Moha. Moha Rasa may be compared to the water that is stagnating in the pond. Karuna Rasa may be compared to the water that flows through a river. Moving water ever remains pure. Still water gets contaminated and becomes stagnant. Stagnant water sometimes becomes poisonous because worms breed in it. Flowing water always remains pure, and surely and finally reaches the ocean of Anugraha or God's grace.

I will give now an example. There is a girl in one house. There is a young man in another house. Their houses are almost side by side. But the girl does not know anything about the young man, and the young man does not know anything about the girl living in the neighbouring house. One day, the girl fell seriously ill. That day all the people in the house were hectic and several doctors were called in. When the boy in the neighbouring house heard the noise, he thought it was a disturbance to his studies, and, therefore, he closed his window and started reading. But in course of time, as a result of destiny, this boy got married to that girl in the neighbouring house. The marriage took place in the morning. In the afternoon the girl developed a stomach ache and the bridegroom felt very anxious for the girl and her stomach ache. Where and when did he develop this attachment to the girl? Because he got married to her, even a little stomach ache upset him. When the same girl fell dangerously ill some time ago, he did not feel even the slightest anxiety for her because at that time there was no attachment or relationship with that girl. So, Abhimana and Mamakara, affection and attachment, are responsible for all joys and sorrows. We must try to attain that serene state of mind, that equanimity which enables you not to be elated by joy or depressed by sorrow. When you are able to attain that equanimity of mind, then you can attain Samadhi.

The word Samadhi has been variously interpreted by our scholars. When some falls unconscious during Sankirtan or when someone becomes stiff during Yoga, they think it is a state of Samadhi. But this is not real Samadhi. The very meaning of the word is conveyed by the two syllables that make the word 'Sama' and 'Dhi' - Sama means equal, Dhi means Buddhi. So to be untouched by joy and sorrow, to take them in the same stride is Samadhi.

Earlier, I was dealing with the four Purusharthas, namely, Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. These are comparable to the steps of a ladder. Dharma is firmly planted on the ground, and if we ascend the ladder step by step, we reach the highest rung, the goal of Moksha. So we deem Prakriti as Dharma. And our destination is Moksha or Purusha. Artha and Kama are the intermediary stages between Purusha on the one hand and Prakriti on the other.

 

[sravna]

Just to add here..Souls do not evolve, they are as in the pure state as ever..its the Kleshas of Avidya that need to be removed for the the the effulgence of the Soul to be revealed.

Once Avidya is absent what verily is ..Is Brahman.

Dear Renuka,

You are right. You may call maya as something that projects afflicted brahman. By getting out of the clutch of maya the affliction is removed.

 

[sravna]

Also there is no evidence or logic to contradict advaita though duality it seems to me is ridden with holes.

 

[zebra16]

Madhva , Vallabha and Ramanuja were no fools. They called the bluff right where it was to start. In Vallabha's situation nirgunam and gunam existed right at the beginning when there was no avidya or maya. See where he called the bluff of advaita? /QUOTE]

I would be very careful of the choice of words here, especially given the present state of affairs in this forum. Using the corollory, would it mean Sankara was what Madhava and Ramanuja were not(no fools)? What do you mean "called the bluff of advaita"? Is saying advaita is untenable (In the view of some persons or even in the majority of the human population) the same as a "bluff" called advaita? Dont you think this would be a provocation to start calling names to each other?

Regards,

narayan

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

You are right. You may call maya as something that projects afflicted brahman. By getting out of the clutch of maya the affliction is removed.

Dear Sravana,
Can I just modify that.." You may call maya as something that projects affliction. By getting out of the clutch of maya the affliction is removed

I removed the word Brahman..as Brahman is beyond affliction.By using the word Afflicted Brahman we are giving Brahman Dualities.

 

[sravna]

Renuka, I agree, brahman is not really afflicted as it is only a seeming affliction. Good point.

 

[nachi naga]

To know Brahman,we ought to be Brahman Gyaani.When one attains the knowledge of self,as self-realisation,Brahman is know to have been experienced.Then duality ceases.Only advaitham is there.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Renuka,

You may call maya as something that projects afflicted brahman.

Pardon me Sravna but this statement is absurd. If brahman is afflicted we can say for sure that there is no scope of peace for jiva. Do please enlighten my ignorant mind. What is the relation of Jiva to brahman . It is almost like brahman has multiple identities each of which is afflicted by maya in a different way and there is one part to the brahman which is never afflicted. Further to this since brahman is only one, unless all jivas gain vidya, the brahman is never really free. There is another possibility which almost makes me laugh, even affliction is an illusion. So in reality there is no affliction and there is no avidya.

It seems right from the beginning advaita was all about dvaita as individual parts of the brahman can be afflicted and not afflicted and have their own identity! Inconsistency was rampant throughout. There lies the bluff.

 

[gopaindu]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu(Refost 231-Migration of brahmins)
I agree with you that some people out of greed/necessity migrated to other places in pre independent times. After independence, both the ruling and opposition parties spread hatred against brahmins for political gains. So people went northwards. There they had to face a different problem north indians hated south indians on the presumption that the latter grabbed the jobs of the former. The quota rule adopted by the Government(s) for upliftment of the backward people, who were majority, mainly benefitted only those who belonged to wealthy and politically active families. The brahmins neither remain in North India nor could come to South India which compelled them to go abroad for study/jobs. Reverse migration has started but has not picked up momentum. Further, people of Chennai especially those who were educated and employed in Tamil Nadu want their children to study engineering in India (mostly paid seats) and then for MS in US out of compulsion, increased expectations and lack of opportunities in India. Another trend is that now people other than those who were born in the families of forward castes have started migrating to Delhi to fill up the places of those born in the families of brahmins. Mostly, people who are in need of jobs are not provided jobs in and near their places of their normal residence. So, the migration outside Tamil Nadu is due to discrimination mainly and out of greed to a lesser extent. raja48.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Renuka

Which of this comes from Gita. I am surprised I have never heard of this entire passage. Where does this incident come from?

"Vrishneenaam Vaasudevosmi; Pandavanam Dhananjaya."
"Among the Vrishnees, I am Vaasudeva. Because I am the son of Vasudeva, I am Vaasudeva. Among the Pandavas I am Arjuna."
Though He is one, here He represents Himself as two. He further says, "I am Eswara, you are the Jiva, and the heroes who are ranged against you constitute the Jagat, the world. This Jagat is all reflected as in a mirror. You are considering that you are separate and all these people are separate from you. You are thinking that you and they are different. Jiva, Eswara and Prakriti, all three entities have been there from time immemorial." Then Arjuna asked, "If these entities, Jiva, Eswara and Prakriti have been ever in existence and Jiva and Eswara are one, how do you know about Jagat and why do I not know anything about it? When you and I are one, how is it that you know and I do not know? Please tell me the secret of this." Krishna said, "Arjuna! You also can know, but you do not focus your mind upon the goal. Therefore, you do not know. But my mind is always steadily riveted on that reality. Therefore, I know it. And that is the essential difference between us two." Arjuna could not grasp this. He said, "You are trying to hoodwink me, oh, Krishna!" To this, Krishna said, "Arjuna! I shall never utter false or deceitful words. I am Satya Swarupa. Therefore there is no place for falsehood or deceit in My words. It is because of the effect of Maya that you have become subjected to illusion and you are attributing falsehood even to Me!"

Then He wanted to teach Arjuna by an example. He asked Arjuna, "How old are you?" Arjuna said, "I am eighty years old." Krishna asked, "Tell me, three years ago, on such and such a day, where were you?" Arjuna could not recollect and said: "Lord! I do not remember where I was on that day three years ago." Krishna said, "Then you do not remember where you were. You accept you were in a particular place three years ago. If you were not there how could you be here today? You admit today that you do not know where you were three years ago." Krishna patted Arjuna on his back and continued, "Do not feel embarrassed. I shall put to you another question. Please tell me how old you were when king Drupada was bound and brought by you to your kingdom." Arjuna replied, "I was at that time 16 years old, Oh Lord!" Krishna then asked, "Do you remember when you got married to Subhadra?" Arjuna said immediately, 'I certainly remember, I was married in my twenty-second year." Then Krishna questioned: "An event such as the marriage which took place fifty years ago and the incident of bringing king Drupada bound to your capital which happened long long ago, are remembered by you but you do not remember what happened just three years ago. Why is it? The secret is this. The nature of Maya is that it makes you attach importance to some events such as birthdays and wedding days but not to others."

Sincerely

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Srimathi Happy Hindu Ji,
As I have said, let the person the posting is addressed to respond. When I said he had every right, what he said on it's surface is not by itself derisive. It is quite answerable in kind. It is not a personal attack. If, as I have said, offends Professor Nara Ji, then let him either respond or PM myself, as I have said.

Again, let me repeat, you have no role in trying to enforce any Forum rule, even if Sri Raju has said something wrong. It is within the purview of the Moderator.

This will be the last communication I will have with you on this.

KRS

Dear Sir,

Thankyou.

From your pov Raju's post is not derisive or a personal attack. I don't agree with it. But anyways, since you are now handling the issue, i shall keep away.

I take it that from now onwards there is this new forum rule: -- when 2 posters are talking no other person can intervene in between.

Regards.

 

[sravna]

Pardon me Sravna but this statement is absurd. If brahman is afflicted we can say for sure that there is no scope of peace for jiva. Do please enlighten my ignorant mind. What is the relation of Jiva to brahman . It is almost like brahman has multiple identities each of which is afflicted by maya in a different way and there is one part to the brahman which is never afflicted. Further to this since brahman is only one, unless all jivas gain vidya, the brahman is never really free. There is another possibility which almost makes me laugh, even affliction is an illusion. So in reality there is no affliction and there is no avidya.

It seems right from the beginning advaita was all about dvaita as individual parts of the brahman can be afflicted and not afflicted and have their own identity! Inconsistency was rampant throughout. There lies the bluff.

Shri Subbudu,

1. There is something called pure brahman
2. It has a certain experience
3. Just like breaking up something material assume you can break up experience
4. the expereince of pure brahman is that of whole reality.
5. The incomplete up experiences if put together give the whole expereince of pure brahman.
6. As for as the brahman is concerened there is only one reality.
7. beacuse of something called maya, the incomplete experiences by themselves become a reality but only relative realities as it soon reaches the experience of brahman by gradually overcoming maya. What we call as jiva have these incomplete experiences.
6. These incomplete experiences of reality reveal the make up of the experiences that go into the experience of brahman.
Note - I use the term incomplete expereince to mean that the experiences are not of the whole reality.

 

[sravna]

Also consider this to believe that there can be different levels of consciousness of the same entity:

Take our body. It has a number of parts let's say downto the level of a cell and to even greater levels. The body has a whole experience of all its parts and we may say that the cells too have their own experience.We make take the whole body as the complete YOU and the cells as the incomplete YOU.

Now take this expereince of the whole and parts as the expereince of whole reality and expereince of part reality. The whole reality is expereinced by brahman and the part realities have their own expereince. But in the case of brahman the unified expereince gives perfect information to it unlike our unified information of the part expereinces. I would not like to extend the analogy further. This is only to show there can be experiences at different levels co-existing.

From the point of view of the incomplete realities they keep moving towards perfection. The whole thing may be visualized as a pyramid as one member put it with the consciousness becoming more and more unified as these move towards brahman by acquisition of knowledge.

 

[subbudu1]

Also consider this to believe that there can be different levels of consciousness of the same entity:

Take our body. It has a number of parts let's say downto the level of a cell and to even greater levels. The body has a whole experience of all its parts and we may say that the cells too have their own experience.We make take the whole body as the complete YOU and the cells as the incomplete YOU.

Now take this expereince of the whole and parts as the expereince of whole reality and expereince of part reality. The whole reality is expereinced by brahman and the part realities have their own expereince. But in the case of brahman the unified expereince gives perfect information to it unlike our unified information of the part expereinces. I would not like to extend the analogy further. This is only to show there can be experiences at different levels co-existing.

From the point of view of the incomplete realities they keep moving towards perfection. The whole thing may be visualized as a pyramid as one member put it with the consciousness becoming more and more unified as these move towards brahman by acquisition of knowledge.

As I said duality starts the moment you define parts have their own experience. What advaita says is that part experience is itself complete experience.What you are actually describing is vishishtadvaita in a way.
Can you please quote from Shankara or his great followers in this regard?

 

[sravna]

As I said duality starts the moment you define parts have their own experience. What advaita says is that part experience is itself complete experience.What you are actually describing is vishishtadvaita in a way.
Can you please quote from Shankara or his great followers in this regard?

By saying that parts have their experiences I am not implying anything about the nature of reality of such experiences. Advaita does allow for such experiences and Sankara calls them as relative realities. It turns out they are one with the reality of brahman finally. The rope snake analogy brings this out neatly. Duality is something where the realities are in essence different.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka

Which of this comes from Gita. I am surprised I have never heard of this entire passage. Where does this incident come from?


Sincerely

I got this info purely from: Discourse of Sathya Sai Baba during the Summer Course in Spirituality and Indian Culture
held for College Students at Brindavan, Whitefield, Bangalore District in May 1972

Thats the only info I can give you sincerely and since it came from Bhagawan Baba I have faith that it actually happened.
Dont view me wrong as having non evidence based beliefs but thats how I feel.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sister,

I have sent the message you have addressed to Sri Raju as I have said I would in my PM to you.

You are free to post it again, with the moderation guidelines in mind.

You and Raju seem to have this antagonistic view of each other. I have nothing to say about it except, please do not infringe on a moderator's job.

In my opinion, I as a member, don't at least get any benefit from your conversations to each other, as they seem as repeating the same thing again and again. But if you want to continue the conversation with him, go ahead.

Now just to make clear. Join in anyone's conversation with some other. That is not moderated. WHAT I WILL NOT ALLOW IS A THIRD PARTY COMING IN BETWEEN TWO FOLKS TO MODERATE - IN ESSENCE TRYING TO WEAR THE MODERATOR'S HAT. Hope this is clear.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sir,

Thankyou.

From your pov Raju's post is not derisive or a personal attack. I don't agree with it. But anyways, since you are now handling the issue, i shall keep away.

I take it that from now onwards there is this new forum rule: -- when 2 posters are talking no other person can intervene in between.

Regards.

 

[subbudu1]

By saying that parts have their experiences I am not implying anything about the nature of reality of such experiences. Advaita does allow for such experiences and Sankara calls them as relative realities. It turns out they are one with the reality of brahman finally..

Please provide actual reference from the works of Shankara please towards this statement

 

[tks]

read this..simple and nice:


Dvaita, Advaita and Vishistadvaita

Discourse of Sathya Sai Baba during the Summer Course in Spirituality and Indian Culture
held for College Students at Brindavan, Whitefield, Bangalore District in May 1972
Published by Sri Sathya Sai Books and Publications Trust
Web posted at Feb 17, 2002


.

Smt Renuka -

I resonate with the thought that this is simple and nice. Since it is a talk which covers so many topics and it is addressed to a large audience with multitude of background I think Sri Baba has taken liberty to simplify at the expense of rigor which is appropriate in my view. The Drshtanthas (metaphors) are from vedas. The take-away message is one of unity across the various schools of thought and need to focus on developing 'Karuna Rasa' as a way of maturing (using my words).

Regards

 

[sravna]

Shri Subbudu,

See the following website: The Crown of Life: Yoga - Advaitism (Ch. 4)

"Shankara regarded the empirical life of the individual consciousness as nothing but a waking dream, and as any other dream, an unreal substance. Its unreality comes to light when one travels from limited to cosmic consciousness, or contemplates the relative nature of physical consciousness as it varies from waking (jagrat), to dream (swapan), and from dream to dreamlessness (sushupti). If empirical experience is relative in character, wherein lies its reality? The answer provided by Shankara is that it is to be sought in the Thinking Mind, which in turn only reflects the light of the Atman, the Eternal Self, the unchanging, the absolute, the real witness (sakshi).

The principle of causality is just a condition of knowledge. The objects appear to be real so long as we work within the limits of cause and effect. The moment we rise above these limitations, all objects vanish into airy nothings. In the true nature of reality, there is no place for causation, because causal explanations are always incomplete and ultimately lead nowhere. The objects momentarily appear as bubbles or ripples on the surface of the water and disappear the next moment into the water and are no more. Water alone remains the real substratum of the whole phenomenon. In just the same way, the Real contains and transcends the phenomenal, and is free from all relationships of time, space and cause.

The entire world lives in the mind of man, and it is the movement of the conscious mind that produces the distinctions of perception, the perceiver and the perceived, a differentiation where in fact there is none, as everything is part of the Vast ocean of unity. This state does not recognize the distinctions of knower, known and knowledge, all of which are but relative terms with no finality about them. Similarly, the three states of the human experience (waking, dreaming and the dreamless) are unreal, for none of them lasts long enough, and each gives place to the other in turn, as the mind passes from state to state. Each of them has a beginning and an end and exists only in the absence of the others.

The term "relativity" in itself implies its antithesis, the "Reality," and beyond the three states specified above lies the atman, as the basis of them all. It alone is and constantly remains, behind the ever changing panorama of life, the ever unborn, eternally awake, the dreamless and self-illumined, by its very nature a pure cognition distinct from the non-cognition of the sleep state."

 

[sravna]

One relevant question would be , "What is the relevance of maya?" I guess it could be because at each stage of consciousness starting from the lowest in the physical world up to that of humans, there is a realization that the respective reality is a false perception. Only then it graduates to the next level. So the realization in brahman that it is expereincing the ultimate and the only truths is inherently ingrained through the realization by these relative realities.

 

[renuka]

Is it possible to discover the beginning or the end of Maya? Can one know when Maya will end?



None can discover the beginning of Maya. Neither the personalized God (Easwara), nor the individual self (soul), nor the objective world can ever succeed in discovering the beginning of the Maya, which brought them into existence and started the chain of 'act-consequence-act'. Nevertheless, one can succeed in discovering when Maya will end! When will it end? When the objective world is ignored, set aside, denied or discovered to be immanent in the Divine, the jeeva (individualized being) is no more.

When the jeeva is no more,the Easwara(Cosmic Being or personalized God) is superfluous and disappears. And when the Easwara has faded out, Brahman(Absolute Reality) alone Is.

When a personalized God,a personality seperate from the rest called jeeva and the mental creation of that jeeva ,called Prakrithi(the objective world) are non existent in the developed consciousness of man,Maya the progenitor of all three,cannot exists.

Sathya Sai Speaks Volume 14 page 161.

 

[renuka]

What is the truth of God, the objective world and man? What is their mutual relationship?



Maya is the Will that causes all three. It is a clear flawless mirror. When the satwic nature is reflected in that mirror, God results; when the rajasic nature is reflected, the jeeva (individualized Self) results. It is ever anxious to grow, to grab, to survive and to be secure. When tamasic nature is reflected, matter (the objective world) is the result.

All three are Paramatma, but they derive their reality as Its reflections. When undergoing reflections, they attain different forms and combinations and characteristics. The One becomes many; every one of the many is Real only because of the One in it. Maya too is a component of the One; by the emphasis on that component, the One transformed Itself into the many.


Sathya Sai Speaks Volume 14 page 159-160

 

[sravna]

Here's my summing up of Advaita:

The reality called brahman is complete in itself and is eternal. The experience of brahman is one of the whole reality. Brahman is called the absolute reality. An inherent power of brahman called maya, is responsible for the existence of realities called jivas that are transient in nature, whose experiences are not that of the whole reality. Jivas are in essence brahman.

How are the jivas which do not experience the whole reality, in essence brahman? It is like a person who has different levels of expertise on a subject in his lifetime. The person is the same but the expertise or knowledge varies. Lets say he reaches the stage where he acquires complete expertise. Now, If you compress the duration of his life span to zero it would seem the knowledge acquired is instantaneous or has always been there. The former is the experience of the brahman as the jiva and the latter that of pure brahman. The two levels of consciousness exist at the same time. The person corresponds to brahman and he is always the same just as brahman is unchanging.

Why should the lower consciousness or realities exist? Or what is the significance of maya? The existence of inherent realization in brahman that only its knowledge is the absolute truth is due to the realization in these lower realities that the knowledge they acquired is not total or is false. The absolute truth is: brahman is the only reality. The experiences of the jivas in coming to this conclusion form the basis of the experience of brahman. Thus the knowledge of the absolute truth in brahman and its blissful experience is based on the relative realities.