God Exists

[renuka]

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Dear Subbudu,

You said:

I would like to know why it is said that Vishnu is asleep for some many years after world is destroyed. Is life around him so very eventful.

I think that has to do with the Yoga Nidra concept.First we will define Vishnu and touch upon Yoga Nidra.

The traditional Sanskrit explanation of the name Vishnu involves the root viś, meaning "to settle, to enter", or also (in the Rigveda) "to pervade", and a suffix nu, translating to approximately "the All-Pervading One". An early commentator on the Vedas, Yaska, in his Nirukta, defines Vishnu as 'vishnu vishateh; one who enters everywhere', and 'yad vishito bhavati tad vishnurbhavati; that which is free from fetters and bondages is Vishnu.'


Yoga nidra was first explained in Yoga Tadavali authored by Adi Sankaracharya as ''Vichhina Samkalpa Vikalpa Moole, Nihshesh Nirmulit Karma Jale/ Nitantarat Nitant Bhadrasa, Jambhrite Yogini Yoga Nidra//Meaning:'“When mind has transcended maya (delusion), when ego has become static, when senses are no more functioning, and when all communication between the mind and the senses has been cut, when I and you no longer exist for a period of time Yoga Nidra starts.



taken from Wikipedia.


So I guess Lord Vishnu being "asleep" was just a concept on Reality.

 

[renuka]

Just adding points..taken from Isa Upanishad.

Asambhuti-Unmanifested.
Sambhuti-Manifested.

Something cannot be created out of nothing.There must be a cause before there can be an effect.The cause may not be seen,but it must have existed.

All we see around is all were at one time unmanifested.They were part of Asambhuti.
Asambhuti is the same as Prakriti,nature, and it is a state where all the forces are in harmony with each other.
The 3 forces are called Sattva,Rajas and Tamas.
So as long as there is harmony among these 3 forces,there is no manisfestation.It is infinite unvarying oneness.

At a certain point the harmony is "disturbed".This is the starting point of Sambhuti(Manifestation).
The One becomes Many.The many was in the One and it then becomes manifest.Its first manifestation is called Hiranyagarbha.

 

[subbudu1]

Just adding points..taken from Isa Upanishad.

Asambhuti-Unmanifested.
Sambhuti-Manifested.

Something cannot be created out of nothing.There must be a cause before there can be an effect.The cause may not be seen,but it must have existed.

All we see around is all were at one time unmanifested.They were part of Asambhuti.
Asambhuti is the same as Prakriti,nature, and it is a state where all the forces are in harmony with each other.
The 3 forces are called Sattva,Rajas and Tamas.
So as long as there is harmony among these 3 forces,there is no manisfestation.It is infinite unvarying oneness.

At a certain point the harmony is "disturbed".This is the starting point of Sambhuti(Manifestation).
The One becomes Many.The many was in the One and it then becomes manifest.Its first manifestation is called Hiranyagarbha.

(Bhagavad Gita 14:19) says that one needs to transcend the three states satva, rajas and tamas to reach the brahman. If this is true then, your following state Asambhuti is the same as Prakriti,nature, and it is a state where all the forces are in harmony with each other.
The 3 forces are called Sattva,Rajas and Tamas. of un-manifestation when only brahman existed is impossible.

I find that your confusion is because you have been reading too many theories and works of gurus. It may be possible that this Guru has himself read different philosophies some of which contradict each other.

Pardon me if I have said anything offensive but that is my opinion. Leave the Gurus alone and follow the interpretation on one text . That is sufficient.

 

[renuka]

(Bhagavad Gita 14:19) says that one needs to transcend the three states satva, rajas and tamas to reach the brahman. If this is true then, your following state Asambhuti is the same as Prakriti,nature, and it is a state where all the forces are in harmony with each other.
The 3 forces are called Sattva,Rajas and Tamas. of un-manifestation when only brahman existed is impossible.

I find that your confusion is because you have been reading too many theories and works of gurus. It may be possible that this Guru has himself read different philosophies some of which contradict each other.

Pardon me if I have said anything offensive but that is my opinion. Leave the Gurus alone and follow the interpretation on one text . That is sufficient.

Dear Subbudu,

All of us are in a state of "confusion" till we realize the Truth.I am just sharing what I was reading today so that I can contribute to Forum and we can all learn in that process,I might be wrong and you might be right or vice versa.
I welcome Vadam and Prativadam.I hope I havent confused you yet again.

 

[subbudu1]

I concede that I am not an expert in quantum mechanics, but that is my limitation, not the drawback of the field.
.

Barani I am not saying Quantum theory is wrong but there are different variations of it many of which do not require a conscious observer. Furthermore some experiments have established that measurement alone can collapse a wave function not the presence of a conscious observer.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Subbudu,

All of us are in a state of "confusion" till we realize the Truth.I am just sharing what I was reading today so that I can contribute to Forum and we can all learn in that process,I might be wrong and you might be right or vice versa.
I welcome Vadam and Prativadam.I hope I havent confused you yet again.

I understand these days when I read the scriptures I follow the ground up model. The ground up is I go from the text and look at interpretations pertaining to the text that I have managed to read. I do not take interpretations and go down to the text level to see what fits in where. I hope you understand this difference in our approach. So in my view interpretations and saying of swamijis are incidental. They need not be true, or may be true in specific cases and context, or whatever. But they have to come from the texts or else it is a new philosophy.

Just to understand which is the text which mentions this ?

All we see around is all were at one time unmanifested.They were part of Asambhuti.
Asambhuti is the same as Prakriti,nature, and it is a state where all the forces are in harmony with each other.
The 3 forces are called Sattva,Rajas and Tamas.
So as long as there is harmony among these 3 forces,there is no manisfestation.It is infinite unvarying oneness.

Is that the view of a philosopher or something directly from the Vedanta?

 

[subbudu1]

When mind has transcended maya (delusion), when ego has become static, when senses are no more functioning, and when all communication between the mind and the senses has been cut, when I and you no longer exist for a period of time Yoga Nidra starts.

As I suspect Shankara does not say time is a perception here. "when I and you no longer exist for a period of time Yoga Nidra starts" Here something has elapsed even there is Yoga Nidra when no events actually take place. This is fairly consistent in ancient hindu theology , the view that time elapses regardless of the state of things. It is the way we perceive the time is seen as relative. I am comfortable with this concept then things fall out of the belief that time itself is an illusion.

 

[renuka]

I understand these days when I read the scriptures I follow the ground up model. The ground up is I go from the text and look at interpretations pertaining to the text that I have managed to read. I do not take interpretations and go down to the text level to see what fits in where. I hope you understand this difference in our approach. So in my view interpretations and saying of swamijis are incidental. They need not be true, or may be true in specific cases and context, or whatever. But they have to come from the texts or else it is a new philosophy.

Just to understand which is the text which mentions this ?

Is that the view of a philosopher or something directly from the Vedanta?

Its from Isa Upanishad with notes based on Adi Shankara commentary and also based on Swami Lokeswaranandas weekly discourses.
From Ramakrishna Mission

 

[subbudu1]

Its from Isa Upanishad with notes based on Adi Shankara commentary and also based on Swami Lokeswaranandas weekly discourses.
From Ramakrishna Mission

Renuka you may like to read this article by Swami Nirmalananda Giri. I am yet to find out details about him. But this site might be of interest to you , if you are not already aware
Best of luck - AJA - Bhagavad Gita Commentary - The Three Gunas–Part One

 

[renuka]

Renuka you may like to read this article by Swami Nirmalananda Giri. I am yet to find out details about him. But this site might be of interest to you , if you are not already aware
Best of luck - AJA - Bhagavad Gita Commentary - The Three Gunas–Part One

Yes I have read some of his works,he is a White American.His commentaries are good.
I subscribe to this site.Even the whole Geeta is sung in English.
Thank you for the link.I had printed out this whole link before and its right here at my desk.
Thank you anyway.

 

[sravna]

As I suspect Shankara does not say time is a perception here. "when I and you no longer exist for a period of time Yoga Nidra starts" Here something has elapsed even there is Yoga Nidra when no events actually take place. This is fairly consistent in ancient hindu theology , the view that time elapses regardless of the state of things. It is the way we perceive the time is seen as relative. I am comfortable with this concept then things fall out of the belief that time itself is an illusion.

Dear Shri Subbudu,

Vishnu should be seen as a physical manifestation of brahman. The passage of time in divine beings is much much faster. For example just one night of Vishnu I think is equivalent to billions of human years. In the pure spiritual reality time moves at infinite speed and hence is not perceived or in other words does not exist. I am saying time moves at infinite speed for the sake of understanding.

 

[renuka]

Dear Shri Subbudu,

Vishnu should be seen as a physical manifestation of brahman. The passage of time in divine beings is much much faster. For example just one night of Vishnu I think is equivalent to billions of human years. In the pure spiritual reality time moves at infinite speed and hence is not perceived or in other words does not exist. I am saying time moves at infinite speed for the sake of understanding.

I agree and just adding a stanza from Uddhava Gita which has a stanza about Lord Vishnu being the embodiment of Time.

"He who concentrates his mind on Vishnu, the Ruler of Maya or the three Gunas as the Antaryamin of Time, whose form is Time, attains the power of Isatva or all-ruling power."

 

[DrBarani]

some experiments have established that measurement alone can collapse a wave function not the presence of a conscious observer.

Correct. Measurement implies a measuring probe and therefore an "observer". The observer doesn't have to be a human being. In physics, is not possible to declare that events occurred without an observer. From that theory, Big Bang never occurred as a wholesome isolated event since there would never have been an observer outside it. This is why it is my theory that Big Bang was merely a very large supernova explosion that sent shockwaves across the universe that was otherwise in a steady state. It is like throwing a stone into a still water lake. Accordingly, Big Bang can be explained through known laws of physics.

However, the critical question is, why are these fundamental laws and universal constants? Where did they come from?

 

[subbudu1]

I agree and just adding a stanza from Uddhava Gita which has a stanza about Lord Vishnu being the embodiment of Time.

"He who concentrates his mind on Vishnu, the Ruler of Maya or the three Gunas as the Antaryamin of Time, whose form is Time, attains the power of Isatva or all-ruling power."

If Vishnu is himself in the form of time, then time is not just a perception. I hope that is clear now.

 

[renuka]

If Vishnu is himself in the form of time, then time is not just a perception. I hope that is clear now.

Dear Subbudu,

I put this stanza hoping that exact reply from you cos at one glance this stanza appears contradictory.
So we will co relate now.
As Srvana said Vishnu is a projection of Brahman too.
So even Time is a projection hence a perception.
Over to you now.Awaiting your response.

 

[subbudu1]

Correct. Measurement implies a measuring probe and therefore an "observer". The observer doesn't have to be a human being. In physics, is not possible to declare that events occurred without an observer. From that theory, Big Bang never occurred as a wholesome isolated event since there would never have been an observer outside it. This is why it is my theory that Big Bang was merely a very large supernova explosion that sent shockwaves across the universe that was otherwise in a steady state. It is like throwing a stone into a still water lake. Accordingly, Big Bang can be explained through known laws of physics.

Dear Barani it is for this reason that the currently popular copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory, which is what you have described is considered inadequate. Towards this end we have many other interpretations of this theory which includes the neo copenhagen model. I was introduced to one another theory which I cited and which I liked. This was the theory that wave never collapses. The observer in this context becomes part of the experiment moment he interacts with it. The quantum wave never collapses but it includes the observer. This solves many of the philosophical riddles and the thesis I cite has impressively and clearly discussed this theory. If the quantum waves can include all the properties in a box, why should it not come to include the observer as well? The other possibility is that quantum theory is only true in the narrow sense wrt certain conditions, as some have argued.

However, the critical question is, why are these fundamental laws and universal constants? Where did they come from?

This question will remain even if we have a god with god like properties. How did this fundamental god and god like properties come from? Does that help Barani. There are some god like properties we wish somebody has, because he can save the world from evil, protect the good and so on. But there is no proof of his or her involvement which can be taken up in a scientific context.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Subbudu,

I put this stanza hoping that exact reply from you cos at one glance this stanza appears contradictory.
So we will co relate now.
As Srvana said Vishnu is a projection of Brahman too.
So even Time is a projection hence a perception.
Over to you now.Awaiting your response.

Renuka, that is a belief from advaita, is it not, that Vishnu is a projection of Brahman. Vaishnavas are strictly advised to stay away from people who talk that way. So it is not a universally established theory even within hinduism, leave alone finding a scientific proof for it. Yes if Vishnu is a projection, time is a projection, as per hinduism. But Vishnu is a projection, is blasphemous to many crores of hindus.

If there is god, according to me, he is more in lines with what Vallabhacharya says, he is one and he is the source of many- The one did become many, and the many represent the universe, but the one is one , many remains many without being one until they dissolve into one. But all this is plain theory- No proof. In this theory atleast there is no projection , no hologram, thankfully and we can continue to focus on our lives , be realistic and progress in science.

In any case none of the Vaishnava theories say that Vishnu is a projection. Further a projection of what, a shadow is created in the image of the real, because the real has a form and a shape. The shadow tries to imitate the real, though it is a bad imitation. This was one of the objections of Ramanujacharya.

 

[DrBarani]

Dear Barani it is for this reason that the currently popular copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory, which is what you have described is considered inadequate. Towards this end we have many other interpretations of this theory which includes the neo copenhagen model. I was introduced to one another theory which I cited and which I liked. This was the theory that wave never collapses. The observer in this context becomes part of the experiment moment he interacts with it. The quantum wave never collapses but it includes the observer. This solves many of the philosophical riddles and the thesis I cite has impressively and clearly discussed this theory. If the quantum waves can include all the properties in a box, why should it not come to include the observer as well? The other possibility is that quantum theory is only true in the narrow sense wrt certain conditions, as some have argued.

This question will remain even if we have a god with god like properties. How did this fundamental god and god like properties come from? Does that help Barani. There are some god like properties we wish somebody has, because he can save the world from evil, protect the good and so on. But there is no proof of his or her involvement which can be taken up in a scientific context.

The uncertainty principle includes the extent by which the observer participates in the event. It is marginal and measurable. It is already known that observer and event are not fully separable. That isn't new theory. As I pointed out before, the minor role played by an observer is not within the context of defining the event. The observer affects it, but only to the extent of known limits.

For the philosophical question of God, it didn't matter if one questioned the origin of Universe or the origin of Universal laws that generated the Universe. But for many people Universe is a physical thing and Universal Laws are metaphysical.

 

[subbudu1]

The uncertainty principle includes the extent by which the observer participates in the event. It is marginal and measurable. It is already known that observer and event are not fully separable. That isn't new theory. As I pointed out before, the minor role played by an observer is not within the context of defining the event. The observer affects it, but only to the extent of known limits.

Dear Barani that is not what the cited theory is about, wish you would read it and then respond to it. Thanks,

 

[subbudu1]

For the philosophical question of God, it didn't matter if one questioned the origin of Universe or the origin of Universal laws that generated the Universe. But for many people Universe is a physical thing and Universal Laws are metaphysical.

That is what humans would like unfortunately not a proof remains that can be used by the scientists to discuss on the existence of God who frames these supposedly metaphysical laws. Laws are laws and considered by science to rule the material world and only the material world. There are no inner bodies, entities without material connections, pure consciousness proven to be there.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Sir/Madam,

I am sure God must be enjoying all the arguments for and against HIM
and must be laughing heartily at the way we are slugging it out from
classical physics to particle physics, cosmology and metaphysics !

 

[DrBarani]

Sir/Madam,

I am sure God must be enjoying all the arguments for and against HIM
and must be laughing heartily at the way we are slugging it out from
classical physics to particle physics, cosmology and metaphysics !

Whatever he is, he is a lousy engineer. Who else would design a toxic pipeline through a recreational area in the human body! :frog:

 

[DrBarani]

There are some god like properties we wish somebody has, because he can save the world from evil, protect the good and so on. But there is no proof of his or her involvement which can be taken up in a scientific context.

Doctors are God like. They can take a syringe, inject something into the body and bingo, a patient who got bitten by a King Cobra is cured! Imagine, a century ago that wasn't possible. There are sonar systems that one can install in the house, and you can clap your hand to turn on/off the light! Or you can utter a mantra and the light will come on!

 

[renuka]

Dear Subuddu,

You said:

Yes if Vishnu is a projection, time is a projection, as per hinduism. But Vishnu is a projection, is blasphemous to many crores of hindus.

Well I guess then we Hindus have protection from Blasphemy by the famous saying "Ekam Sat Viparah Bahuda Vadanti"

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Whatever he is, he is a lousy engineer. Who else would design a toxic pipeline through a recreational area in the human body! :frog:

Here lies the problem. People, rationalists, refuse to accept HIM as a designer.