God Exists

[suraju06]

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Folks,
Because all these given below (from post # 599 by Mr. Nara) have been addressed to ‘Folks’ , ‘folks’ and ‘members’ my locus standi to join this discussion is obvious. I waited for a reply from tks. As I could not see any reply from him I am giving here my comments:

Folks, please do not take my word for it, please google "ad hominem" and see for yourself. How one was raised has no bearing on the validity or absurdity of what they say -- whether it is golden or just plain bovine feces must be determined by what is being said, not by how one was raised.

When I read this out to my wife, she asked me why I have anything to do with a long distance US truck-driver that too on internet. What a repulsive language has been used here! I hope moderator is noting down.

Those who are familiar with the circumstances know ShivKC was the one hounding HappyHindu about her NB identity. It was at this time I asked him to apply the same standard on himself and clarify whether he is a Christian or not. I even offered to apologize if he would categorically reject Jesus as his Christ. He never did.

X was hounding Y and so Z started hounding X. Has this become a forum of hounds?

“I have seen you say vile things, like Brahminism is evil and that many who follow are victims. That too in a forum visited by good number of self proclaimed Brahmins”. Members, you all know I have never made a secret of my views on Brahminism. I do think Brahminism is an evil ideology. Humanity will be better off with it gone, and it would be Brahmins -- who would then be ex-Brahmins -- who would benefit the most.
I also think this is the right place to make this statement as this is where most self-proclaimed Brahmins visit.
To clarify further, IMO, most Brahmins are very decent people. Most of them abhor the poisonous parts of the Brahminical ideology. Yet, they cling to Brahminism because (i) this is the tradition into which they are born, (ii) they look at the non-vile parts and get inspired, and (iii) the feeling that opposing Brahminism is like disrespecting their lineage.
All this is to rationalize an indefensible ideology. When I see otherwise decent people do this I feel they do it because this kind of thinking is drilled into them by the society and to that extent I think they are indeed victims.

All this without first defining what is this so called “brahminism”.

Moral of the story—don’t address anything to Folks, members etc because they will send such replies which are uncomfortable. Be happy addressing the posts only to the ‘like minded’ friends. Amen.

Cheers.

 

[DrBarani]

My expectation is better from you. Before nicknaming people as liers please refer to your own statement which is a mis-representation of my own, though I believe it is largely a misunderstanding


Further this post is not addressed to me. It is addressed to shiv. So you must check your own source of insecurity.

WRONG. If you had any honesty, you would include Shiv's direct question to me that specifically mentioned your name and asked me to respond. It was a response to his question, not an "ad hominem" indirection.

Not just you, none of your cult of million self-loathing brahmins and foreigner-worshipping Indians can give me any insecurity of any kind.

Regarding the QM statement, it still doesn't prove that I rejected modern developments in QM. You aren't even accepting established versions of QM and somehow you pretend like you love an unproven not timetested neo-QM. That doesn't fool anyone here.

Now, please go and complete your debate with Sravna and get back to me, if you manage to win that debate.

 

[ShivKC]

Now, please go and complete your debate with Sravna and get back to me, if you manage to win that debate.

Very well handled Barani sir, I shall eagerly wait for your posts on this issue

see, if you could refer the post #, while giving an earlier post of some one. it would be much helpful for the reader to get involved, with ease.

 

[ShivKC]

The debate over the existence of God is not simply a debate over sensory evidence.

This is because there should be a stratus to determine what we will accept as evidence in the first place, what degree of certainty we require before we consider evidence authentic, and what options we will consider in our explanation of the evidence at our disposal.

the problem here is, atheists are not interested in accepting any evidence, because, they have not set what kind of evidence they want from god.

earlier,as NRR had put it nicely, 'will atheists believe if one brings in front and introduce Mr.God!!

let me set a different kind of argument for the existence of god.

god being conceived as omniopotent, omnipresent, all powerful, i can say, this feature itself gives power for him to manifest in a stone in the sanctorum. its very much possible logically.

i feel god in the stone, i commune with him and he in the form of stone is helping me to come out of my dire straites and he gives me solace through that stone.

this is experience proof i have to share, so a billion more says so.

now the question to atheists would be, what kind of evidence you want to prove lingam as god, or what kind of evidence/proof you have on hands to say, the stone is not god?

as said in the opening para, lets decide what kind of evidence we would permit.. like for eg, in indian courts audio conversation evidence is not permitted, unless backed by testimony... like wise.. lets set the frame work for the debate on god.

 

[DrBarani]

The debate over the existence of God is not simply a debate over sensory evidence.

This is because there should be a stratus to determine what we will accept as evidence in the first place, what degree of certainty we require before we consider evidence authentic, and what options we will consider in our explanation of the evidence at our disposal.

the problem here is, atheists are not interested in accepting any evidence, because, they have not set what kind of evidence they want from god.

earlier,as NRR had put it nicely, 'will atheists believe if one brings in front and introduce Mr.God!!

let me set a different kind of argument for the existence of god.

god being conceived as omniopotent, omnipresent, all powerful, i can say, this feature itself gives power for him to manifest in a stone in the sanctorum. its very much possible logically.

i feel god in the stone, i commune with him and he in the form of stone is helping me to come out of my dire straites and he gives me solace through that stone.

this is experience proof i have to share, so a billion more says so.

now the question to atheists would be, what kind of evidence you want to prove lingam as god, or what kind of evidence/proof you have on hands to say, the stone is not god?

as said in the opening para, lets decide what kind of evidence we would permit.. like for eg, in indian courts audio conversation evidence is not permitted, unless backed by testimony... like wise.. lets set the frame work for the debate on god.

Precisely. This is what I keep saying - setting the rules of the game properly and making sure both sides accept those rules. It appears they don't even want to negotiate on the rules. Somebody is too damm afraid of getting into the details and it isn't us.

 

[subbudu1]

WRONG. If you had any honesty, you would include Shiv's direct question to me that specifically mentioned your name and asked me to respond. It was a response to his question, not an "ad hominem" indirection.

Not just you, none of your cult of million self-loathing brahmins and foreigner-worshipping Indians can give me any insecurity of any kind.

Regarding the QM statement, it still doesn't prove that I rejected modern developments in QM. You aren't even accepting established versions of QM and somehow you pretend like you love an unproven not timetested neo-QM. That doesn't fool anyone here.

Now, please go and complete your debate with Sravna and get back to me, if you manage to win that debate.

For your kind information it is not me who is foreign worshiping. I have had excellant offers abroad, and I have refused to accept invitations to say abroad permanantly/long term with children.

I am not among those pro pro Indians who stick their tongue out for foreign citizenship but then quote the superiority of India, brahminism , advaita etc etc etc, instead of understanding that none of their Indian religion will stand the test of time over a period of time. Kashi will be less important to their descendants than California and it is the way it should be. One should be thankful to the mother which feeds the mouth, the water that quenches the thirst and that land should be our essential loyalty once we decide to stay there.

If there is disinterest in participating in debate I shall not continue, whether or not I will discuss anything with Sravna is my prerogative and depends on circumstances. I know that he is a sincere person who may or may not like me and my debates. But he is a gentleman.


I will not be arguing with you. But I shall respond my points to Nara and if anyone cares to respond to that I will clarify.
I have had much to do with electromagnetics in my life and was regarded as an excellant problem solver in that area. So please dont mistake me to be a novice to this whole area and try to sell your uni-directional knowledge like you do to your admirers here.

Enough said.

 

[ShivKC]

I have had much to do with electromagnetics in my life and was regarded as an excellant problem solver in that area. .

sir, glad to hear that you are an excellent problem solver in EM. why not apply the same skills here , instead of blaming it on the bell boy!

 

[C RAVI]

Precisely. This is what I keep saying - setting the rules of the game properly and making sure both sides accept those rules. It appears they don't even want to negotiate on the rules. Somebody is too damm afraid of getting into the details and it isn't us.

Dr.Barani,

We all have played our part as effectively as possible. We have not twisted anything, have not digressed anything and have not excluded anything.

** Dear all - Here "We" stands for Theist and nothing to do with any groupism. Here, we as members clearly defining our belief as Atheist and Theist. Out of this subject, we are the same.**

Dr.Barani,

I have posed some evidence in my last post to Sh.Nara as how I (we theists) consider human brain. I have clearly presented that whatever scientific / technological advancements we humans have achieved and in the process of achieving, are all only with the help of "Human Brain". We consider the intelligent "Human Brain' as nothing but the gift of the "GOD". Anything acheived only with this gift can not be considered greater than the gift itself. The "Human Brain" held by a Scientist is not out of his discovery.

We theists with our open eyes and broadened mind could well recognise these and can not accept a human's scientific research works and thier results to conclude "GOD" doesn't exist. Sh.Nara, as usual refused to offer his opinion on my claims about "Human Brain", picked up my declaration of acceptance of God and just thanked me.



It's very much evident that the cause of all the technological advancements are due to the effective usage of "Human Brain".

1) Who invented Human Brain?

2) If the energies and vibrations or whatever in the environment is the cause of such "Brain" developments, then why no other living creatures could grasp it?

3) Not just animals, why millions of other humans could not grasp those energies/vibrations, naturally prevailing in the evirnoment, and each of them could not come up with any such technological acheivements? Why to even think of contribution towards technological advancements? Millions of humans could not even excell in Mathamatics and Science.

4) If with the help of "Human Brains", humans could make such miracle like technological progress, how can we refuse to indentify the basic understanding that Humans are just using the gifts of God and can not rule out anything existing beyond human capacity?

5) "Human Brain" is the route couse of all progess and technological success. This can never be ruled out. In such a case, can Atheist accept that in the absence of such exclusive brains we can never ever have improved our survival? If Athiest agree to it, can they agree that we are depending on such brains and that such brains can not be produced by them?

We theists consider, great scientific scholars who could help better physical and material survival of we Human Beings are equivalent to God. They can well be glorified for their contribution and that contribution is nothing but the grace of the God, offered to humans for the sake of humans.

Here we should not rule out that, the same technological advancement is leading to many impediments, disasters and dangers to humnans and all living beings on this Earth.

The development of species took place in a gradual pace, we humans evolved stage by stage, we improved our self from worst to better and going towards the best and would ultimately get to destroy ourself and all the creatures on this Earth.

Everything is happening beyond human control..

Who is ruling the Universe? Who is playing the game? Who is concluding the game?

 

[DrBarani]

Dr.Barani,

We all have played our part as effectively as possible. We have not twisted anything, have not digressed anything and have not excluded anything.

** Dear all - Here "We" stands for Theist and nothing to do with any groupism. Here, we as members clearly defining our belief as Atheist and Theist. Out of this subject, we are the same.**

Dr.Barani,

I have posed some evidence in my last post to Sh.Nara as how I (we theists) consider human brain. I have clearly presented that whatever scientific / technological advancements we humans have achieved and in the process of achieving, are all only with the help of "Human Brain". We consider the intelligent "Human Brain' as nothing but the gift of the "GOD". Anything acheived only with this gift can not be considered greater than the gift itself. The "Human Brain" held by a Scientist is not out of his discovery.

We theists with our open eyes and broadened mind could well recognise these and can not accept a human's scientific research works and thier results to conclude "GOD" doesn't exist. Sh.Nara, as usual refused to offer his opinion on my claims about "Human Brain", picked up my declaration of acceptance of God and just thanked me.



It's very much evident that the cause of all the technological advancements are due to the effective usage of "Human Brain".

1) Who invented Human Brain?

2) If the energies and vibrations or whatever in the environment is the cause of such "Brain" developments, then why no other living creatures could grasp it?

3) Not just animals, why millions of other humans could not grasp those energies/vibrations, naturally prevailing in the evirnoment, and each of them could not come up with any such technological acheivements? Why to even think of contribution towards technological advancements? Millions of humans could not even excell in Mathamatics and Science.

4) If with the help of "Human Brains", humans could make such miracle like technological progress, how can we refuse to indentify the basic understanding that Humans are just using the gifts of God and can not rule out anything existing beyond human capacity?

5) "Human Brain" is the route couse of all progess and technological success. This can never be ruled out. In such a case, can Atheist accept that in the absence of such exclusive brains we can never ever have improved our survival? If Athiest agree to it, can they agree that we are depending on such brains and that such brains can not be produced by them?

We theists consider, great scientific scholars who could help better physical and material survival of we Human Beings are equivalent to God. They can well be glorified for their contribution and that contribution is nothing but the grace of the God, offered to humans for the sake of humans.

Here we should not rule out that, the same technological advancement is leading to many impediments, disasters and dangers to humnans and all living beings on this Earth.

The development of species took place in a gradual pace, we humans evolved stage by stage, we improved our self from worst to better and going towards the best and would ultimately get to destroy ourself and all the creatures on this Earth.

Everything is happening beyond human control..

Who is ruling the universe? Who is playing the game? Who is concluding the game?

Contrary to conventional beliefs of Theists, I think Vishnu is actually asleep now! If he were awake the Chakra might be flying all around!

Anyway, coming to your main point, I can rewrite it as the probability of creating an evolved species with an analytical mind through a purely random experiment is rather low. That is an interesting perspective.

 

[C RAVI]

I will not be arguing with you. But I shall respond my points to Nara and if anyone cares to respond to that I will clarify.
I have had much to do with electromagnetics in my life and was regarded as an excellant problem solver in that area. So please dont mistake me to be a novice to this whole area and try to sell your uni-directional knowledge like you do to your admirers here.

Enough said.

Shri Subuddu1,

I really appreciate your talent of solving any issues in the subject of electomagnetics. I sincerely appreciate all the scientist's exeptional intelligence for their acheivements in science and technology, offering a wonderful world to live in.

If you never mind, can you please refer to my post #633, and express your opinions? I would highly appreciate your response, if you do.

 

[C RAVI]

Contrary to conventional beliefs of Theists, I think Vishnu is actually asleep now! If he were awake the Chakra might be flying all around!

Anyway, coming to your main point, I can rewrite it as the probability of creating an evolved species with an analytical mind through a purely random experiment is rather low. That is an interesting perspective.

Very much interesting perspective!!!!!!!!!!!!! A scientific touch, towards turning impossibilities into possibilities... )


"Creating an evolved species with an analytical mind through a random experiment", though attempted, with low optimism, would still be using the same "Human Brain".

Sir, honestly, I don't think, there can be any other simplistic way than what I have expressed in my post #633, without referring to any historical vedic scriptures, to counter argue with Atheists.

 

[Nara]

....Sravna ....... is a sincere person who may or may not like me and my debates. But he is a gentleman.

Dear Subbudu sir, the ad hominems and their virility have increased exponentially in the recent past -- I am likely to be subjected to some choice wrath even for making this observation . To disagree is not enough, satisfaction comes only from calling the other side dishonest liers.

I will not be arguing with you. But I shall respond my points to Nara and if anyone cares to respond to that I will clarify.

I welcome it.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

... Sh.Nara, as usual refused to offer his opinion on my claims about "Human Brain", picked up my declaration of acceptance of God and just thanked me.

Ravi, after reading this I went back to your post to me and reread it. You have made a lot of statements about why Theists have more clarity etc., that you don't need scientific evidence, and that the two sides are different. I took this as your final statement and didn't realize you were expecting an answer. When you say we are different, I agree, so what answer am I to give? That is the reason for not giving my opinion.

Your comment about "brain" also had an air of finality, so, I concluded what I say will have no traction. Anyway, since you seem to have expected my take on this matter I shall offer one now. Please rest assured that my view is based on what I have read and thought about -- an opinion, however unacceptable and ridiculous it may sound to a clear person such as you, that is not arrived at flippantly.

Here goes ....

Brain is just another body part evolved to enhance the chance of survival and reproduction. There are sea creatures (Tunicates) with rudimentary proto-brain that the creature uses to move about and find a suitable place to lodge itself for life. Once this is achieved, the creature eats its own "brain" as it is no longer needed but can be a source of nourishment -- nature wastes nothing.

The point is, brain is not some gift from a higher power, it is a collection of tissue evolved over eons to serve a purpose for the given life form. The size and complexity of brain grew over billions of years, threw the process of random mutation and natural selection for successful survival and reproduction.

A capacity selected by this natural process often gives rise to new capabilities that was not part of the initial selection prerogative. The primary function of human brain is to promote survival and reproduction, but it also offered the capacity for observation, memory, critical analysis, etc. It is these capacities that have given rise to the explosion of human knowledge.

If the human brain is simply a gift from a superior power, why is human knowledge not complete, to the extent the brain can handle such knowledge, at the instance humans came into being? The very fact human knowledge is expanding shows that it was not something that is designed and placed in our head by a superior being.

Please understand that this is just a summary, there is volumes of text available in text books and scientific literature that support this summary.

​

I also think you are not correct when you say, "as usual refused to offer his opinion". Unlike many others, I never shy away from stating my views or offering arguments just as long as the arguments are about the views and not about the arguer.

Ravi, my "usual" stance is to argue with all my might when there is (i) an equal commitment to decency and civility, and (ii) there is scope for further exchange. In your case (i) was true, that is why I thanked you, and, I thought (ii) was not true, so I did not provide any substantive response. But, since it became clear to me that you were expecting a response I have now provided it. You may consider my view is nothing but bovine feces, which is perfectly alright.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Reading about Brain and Mind here, I would just like to add a point..Medical Science is still not very clear about the mode of communication of the Mind to the Brain as the Mind is most of the while still viewed as a function on the Brain.
The ancients have mapped out a pathway that bridges the mind and brain via Prana.

Prana is viewed as negatively charged(electrons) suffused with Consciousness hence termed Intelligent Electrons by Paramahansa Yogananda who coined the word "Thoughtrons".

It would not be very wrong to go one step further to say that the flow of Prana in the body mimicks the flow of neuronal transmission in the Gross intact Central Nervous System via depolarization and eliciting an Action Potential for even a single twitch of a skeletal muscle fibre to occur.

Even if you notice the Koshas in the body..The Pranamaya Kosha is in between the Annamaya Kosha(Gross body which habours the Brain) and the Manomaya Kosha(Mind).

Just sharing my thoughts thats all...

 

[DrBarani]

Reading about Brain and Mind here, I would just like to add a point..Medical Science is still not very clear about the mode of communication of the Mind to the Brain as the Mind is most of the while still viewed as a function on the Brain.
The ancients have mapped out a pathway that bridges the mind and brain via Prana.

Prana is viewed as negatively charged(electrons) suffused with Consciousness hence termed Intelligent Electrons by Paramahansa Yogananda who coined the word "Thoughtrons".

It would not be very wrong to go one step further to say that the flow of Prana in the body mimicks the flow of neuronal transmission in the Gross intact Central Nervous System via depolarization and eliciting an Action Potential for even a single twitch of a skeletal muscle fibre to occur.

Even if you notice the Koshas in the body..The Pranamaya Kosha is in between the Annamaya Kosha(Gross body which habours the Brain) and the Manomaya Kosha(Mind).

Just sharing my thoughts thats all...

Good. Just a minor point - acetylcholine carries a positively charged nitrogen, therefore, the neural system uses both positrons and electrons. I think it does that to throw more confusion into the minds of our atheist "angels"!

 

[Yamaka]

"Here goes ....

Brain is just another body part evolved to enhance the chance of survival and reproduction. There are sea creatures (Tunicates) with rudimentary proto-brain that the creature uses to move about and find a suitable place to lodge itself for life. Once this is achieved, the creature eats its own "brain" as it is no longer needed but can be a source of nourishment -- nature wastes nothing.

The point is, brain is not some gift from a higher power, it is a collection of tissue evolved over eons to serve a purpose for the given life form. The size and complexity of brain grew over billions of years, threw the process of random mutation and natural selection for successful survival and reproduction.

A capacity selected by this natural process often gives rise to new capabilities that was not part of the initial selection prerogative. The primary function of human brain is to promote survival and reproduction, but it also offered the capacity for observation, memory, critical analysis, etc. It is these capacities that have given rise to the explosion of human knowledge.

If the human brain is simply a gift from a superior power, why is human knowledge not complete, to the extent the brain can handle such knowledge, at the instance humans came into being? The very fact human knowledge is expanding shows that it was not something that is designed and placed in our head by a superior being.

Please understand that this is just a summary, there is volumes of text available in text books and scientific literature that support this summary." - Nara wrote.

Excellent summary... I like it.​

 

[subbudu1]

Dr.Barani,

I have posed some evidence in my last post to Sh.Nara as how I (we theists) consider human brain. I have clearly presented that whatever scientific / technological advancements we humans have achieved and in the process of achieving, are all only with the help of "Human Brain". We consider the intelligent "Human Brain' as nothing but the gift of the "GOD". Anything acheived only with this gift can not be considered greater than the gift itself. The "Human Brain" held by a Scientist is not out of his discovery.

We theists with our open eyes and broadened mind could well recognise these and can not accept a human's scientific research works and thier results to conclude "GOD" doesn't exist. Sh.Nara, as usual refused to offer his opinion on my claims about "Human Brain", picked up my declaration of acceptance of God and just thanked me.



It's very much evident that the cause of all the technological advancements are due to the effective usage of "Human Brain".

1) Who invented Human Brain?

2) If the energies and vibrations or whatever in the environment is the cause of such "Brain" developments, then why no other living creatures could grasp it?

3) Not just animals, why millions of other humans could not grasp those energies/vibrations, naturally prevailing in the evirnoment, and each of them could not come up with any such technological acheivements? Why to even think of contribution towards technological advancements? Millions of humans could not even excell in Mathamatics and Science.

4) If with the help of "Human Brains", humans could make such miracle like technological progress, how can we refuse to indentify the basic understanding that Humans are just using the gifts of God and can not rule out anything existing beyond human capacity?

5) "Human Brain" is the route couse of all progess and technological success. This can never be ruled out. In such a case, can Atheist accept that in the absence of such exclusive brains we can never ever have improved our survival? If Athiest agree to it, can they agree that we are depending on such brains and that such brains can not be produced by them?

We theists consider, great scientific scholars who could help better physical and material survival of we Human Beings are equivalent to God. They can well be glorified for their contribution and that contribution is nothing but the grace of the God, offered to humans for the sake of humans.

Here we should not rule out that, the same technological advancement is leading to many impediments, disasters and dangers to humnans and all living beings on this Earth.

The development of species took place in a gradual pace, we humans evolved stage by stage, we improved our self from worst to better and going towards the best and would ultimately get to destroy ourself and all the creatures on this Earth.

Everything is happening beyond human control..

Who is ruling the Universe? Who is playing the game? Who is concluding the game?

Ravi with respect, I am taking up your post. Human brain is a mystery no doubt. At this point I dont want to discount consciousness as I know not enough yet. Having said that I believe even if there was a consciousness Human Brain is still nothing more than a complex DNA made processing system. Human Brain is indeed a gift of nature's mysterious ways. Whether it was evolved or it was God given is just a perspective. Why so? If you are a theist you would believe that the entire nature, the colorful flowers, the beautiful birds, the intelligent spiders all this are a gift of God. If you are atheist you would see that as a wonder of evolution. Both of this is just perspective and we can all thank nature for this whether nature is a manifestation of God or Not. We must understand that behind all these complex brilliant things that we see , are years and years of evolution. The beautiful woman that you choose to marry is the script of nature. It took millions of years of human evolution( even if you discount animal to human), to shape the cheek bones of your love, in a way that she would become attractive to you. Now this script of nature might be the handiwork of God or an automatic adherence to laws of universe. It does not matter.

Yes human being is the root cause of many technological developments but not the only cause from the POV of science. Why so?
RADAR Systems are just an imitation of the knowledge of BAT. BATs carefully analyzed the world adapted and evolved to develop an excellent mechanism to guide their flight. Humans copied that to build RADARS. So RADARs are a collaborative effort of human brain and BAT Brain.

Take the case of the aeroplane. Did you realize that why, we should develop something like a wing? Because the birds did a study of it and developed this capability with their brain. We copied it.

What about helicopter. Refer to this research work from Caltech -
A Real-Time Helicopter Testbed for Insect-Inspired Visual
Flight Control
Shuo Han, Andrew D. Straw, Michael H. Dickinson and Richard M. Murray
2009 International Conference on Robotics and Automation (ICRA)
http://murray.cms.caltech.edu/preprints/hsdm09-icra.pdf
Even such a modern helicopter is inspired from insects.

Let us look at this question in another way. How have we learnt to grasp things with our hands the way we do? Have you seen the dogs able to grasp things like that? No right! But look at the monkeys who have evolved from our ancestors in the nearby past. They have a much better ability to grasp things. So this proves that it is not that our brain developed this excellant ability to coordinate and hold things all of a sudden. There was a gradual evolution from the pre-ape man to the human.
So yes human brain is a marvel of nature or may be even god's script. But it is developed due to the wonder in nature to evolve into higher intelligence people. If you are a theist you might see human being as a devolution from Godhead. Never mind. Evolution/devolution are just processes characteristic of living beings. We as human brain are a part of this wonder called nature.

Not just animals, why millions of other humans could not grasp those energies/vibrations, naturally prevailing in the evirnoment, and each of them could not come up with any such technological acheivements? Why to even think of contribution towards technological advancements? Millions of humans could not even excell in Mathamatics and Science.

So yes your question is answered that animals did make a contribution to our technological progress and that too because of their own brains and their own creativeness. We humans are part of this cycle of technological progress. No human is out of it. The cave man was the inspiration for abstract modern paintings. The farmer may not be a mathematician, but he was the first scientist to start cross-breeding of plants and animals( It is an age old idea). The musician may not be a mathematician but he started the art of pattern recognition. So human brain is a rarity yet it is a manifestation of the gradual difference between the unicellular organism to the multicellular to the smaller beings to the fish and birds to the animals and plants to the humans. It is gradual difference and also a gradual and collaborative contribution to progress. We may or may not believe that there is a hand of God in this. But for purposes of a rational investigation of facts of life, God can be factored in only if there is no possible material cause for occurances that we observe. Even then we cannot predefine the nature of that non material being unless again what we observe clearly demonstrates the complete nature of that non material being.

"Human Brain" is the route couse of all progess and technological success.

Not only human brain but entire life as we see it is the cause.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Subbudu sir, the ad hominems and their virility have increased exponentially in the recent past -- I am likely to be subjected to some choice wrath even for making this observation . To disagree is not enough, satisfaction comes only from calling the other side dishonest liers.

I welcome it.

Cheers!

Nara if you dont mind I am starting a new thread on the quantum theory subject with relation to god question and answer doubts raised by vedantists and others. I hope to discuss issues from real research, problems and the way the scientist looks at the role of the observer. I might try to get into mathematics and physics as I want to give an exhaustive treatment but I will try to present it in a way, that one can understand the basics of the subject even if they skip the mathematics. I will take this at a slow pace may be a post a week or so.Lets see.

 

[zebra16]

Nara if you dont mind I am starting a new thread on the quantum theory subject with relation to god question and answer doubts raised by vedantists and others. I hope to discuss issues from real research, problems and the way the scientist looks at the role of the observer. I might try to get into mathematics and physics as I want to give an exhaustive treatment but I will try to present it in a way, that one can understand the basics of the subject even if they skip the mathematics. I will take this at a slow pace may be a post a week or so.Lets see.

That is a good idea!! Please do it.

Regards,

narayan

 

[zebra16]

I remember reading the interview of the earlier seer of Kanchi - Sri Chandrashekarendra Saraswati to a Japaneese person, who wanted to know if Puranas are meant to be metaphoric. His answer was it must be taken literally. This I feel is an honest answer rather than making wild speculations and producing imaginary readings based on cosmology and modern ideas!

If you can, please give the details of the interview and give context in which the above quote is attributed to Sri Chandrashekarendra Saraswati. This statement appears to be gross misunderstanding by the japanese person, or the person who published the article, or by the person who read it.

To say that all the puraNas are meant to be literal and does not contain any figure of speech is, well, to put it mildly absurd. Any person reading RamayaNa will know without prompting that when Rama is compared to a lion, it is a case of similie or metaphor or personification depending upon the structure of the sentence, and it is not that Sri Rama suddenly transforms into a lion. But the same person while reading narasimha avataram, will also know that narasimha is a man-lion and there is no play of figures of speech.

To praise Sri Saraswati as being honest for the aforesaid quote would tantamount to praising that scientist as an honest scientist who gives the meaning for "dry ice" as that ice which leaves no water behind when it melts.

Regards,

narayan

 

[DrBarani]

quote is attributed to Sri Chandrashekarendra Saraswati

Sri Saraswati also says there is God. What I find it hypocritical is, cherrypicking his words to suit ones own bias.

 

[subbudu1]

If you can, please give the details of the interview and give context in which the above quote is attributed to Sri Chandrashekarendra Saraswati. This statement appears to be gross misunderstanding by the japanese person, or the person who published the article, or by the person who read it.

To say that all the puraNas are meant to be literal and does not contain any figure of speech is, well, to put it mildly absurd. Any person reading RamayaNa will know without prompting that when Rama is compared to a lion, it is a case of similie or metaphor or personification depending upon the structure of the sentence, and it is not that Sri Rama suddenly transforms into a lion. But the same person while reading narasimha avataram, will also know that narasimha is a man-lion and there is no play of figures of speech.

To praise Sri Saraswati as being honest for the aforesaid quote would tantamount to praising that scientist as an honest scientist who gives the meaning for "dry ice" as that ice which leaves no water behind when it melts.

Regards,

narayan

Sir it is not my desire to make fun of the concerned person. I felt he was being sincere in his answer. This was in one of the books released by the Kanchi mutt on different interviews conducted with the seer , released during the late 80s or early 90s. It had even the interview with Paul Brunton. I think you will find this collection of interviews somewhere. If you find this wrong after quoting the concerned answer of the concerned person, then I will apologize. If you want me to get the book, right away, I cant , I dont have. Take it or leave it, said with due respects.
Thanks

 

[C RAVI]

Ravi with respect, I am taking up your post. Human brain is a mystery no doubt. At this point I dont want to discount consciousness as I know not enough yet. Having said that I believe even if there was a consciousness Human Brain is still nothing more than a complex DNA made processing system. Human Brain is indeed a gift of nature's mysterious ways. Whether it was evolved or it was God given is just a perspective. Why so? If you are a theist you would believe that the entire nature, the colorful flowers, the beautiful birds, the intelligent spiders all this are a gift of God. If you are atheist you would see that as a wonder of evolution. Both of this is just perspective and we can all thank nature for this whether nature is a manifestation of God or Not. We must understand that behind all these complex brilliant things that we see , are years and years of evolution. The beautiful woman that you choose to marry is the script of nature. It took millions of years of human evolution( even if you discount animal to human), to shape the cheek bones of your love, in a way that she would become attractive to you. Now this script of nature might be the handiwork of God or an automatic adherence to laws of universe. It does not matter.

Yes human being is the root cause of many technological developments but not the only cause from the POV of science. Why so?
RADAR Systems are just an imitation of the knowledge of BAT. BATs carefully analyzed the world adapted and evolved to develop an excellent mechanism to guide their flight. Humans copied that to build RADARS. So RADARs are a collaborative effort of human brain and BAT Brain.

Take the case of the aeroplane. Did you realize that why, we should develop something like a wing? Because the birds did a study of it and developed this capability with their brain. We copied it.

What about helicopter. Refer to this research work from Caltech -
A Real-Time Helicopter Testbed for Insect-Inspired Visual
Flight Control
Shuo Han, Andrew D. Straw, Michael H. Dickinson and Richard M. Murray
2009 International Conference on Robotics and Automation (ICRA)
http://murray.cms.caltech.edu/preprints/hsdm09-icra.pdf
Even such a modern helicopter is inspired from insects.

Let us look at this question in another way. How have we learnt to grasp things with our hands the way we do? Have you seen the dogs able to grasp things like that? No right! But look at the monkeys who have evolved from our ancestors in the nearby past. They have a much better ability to grasp things. So this proves that it is not that our brain developed this excellant ability to coordinate and hold things all of a sudden. There was a gradual evolution from the pre-ape man to the human.
So yes human brain is a marvel of nature or may be even god's script. But it is developed due to the wonder in nature to evolve into higher intelligence people. If you are a theist you might see human being as a devolution from Godhead. Never mind. Evolution/devolution are just processes characteristic of living beings. We as human brain are a part of this wonder called nature.


So yes your question is answered that animals did make a contribution to our technological progress and that too because of their own brains and their own creativeness. We humans are part of this cycle of technological progress. No human is out of it. The cave man was the inspiration for abstract modern paintings. The farmer may not be a mathematician, but he was the first scientist to start cross-breeding of plants and animals( It is an age old idea). The musician may not be a mathematician but he started the art of pattern recognition. So human brain is a rarity yet it is a manifestation of the gradual difference between the unicellular organism to the multicellular to the smaller beings to the fish and birds to the animals and plants to the humans. It is gradual difference and also a gradual and collaborative contribution to progress. We may or may not believe that there is a hand of God in this. But for purposes of a rational investigation of facts of life, God can be factored in only if there is no possible material cause for occurances that we observe. Even then we cannot predefine the nature of that non material being unless again what we observe clearly demonstrates the complete nature of that non material being.

Not only human brain but entire life as we see it is the cause.

Shri Subuddu1

Thank you for your elaborate response...

It's not that I have no idea as how we humans invented radar, aero planes, helicopters etc.etc.

The point I am highlighting is, it's one singe living form called "Humans" instilled with "Human Brain", that alone can evolve from time to time, keep excelling from time to time, keep grasping the other creature's qualities and behavior to develop new concepts etc, understanding the nature's hidden intelligence and explore many things to make our life more better and sophisticated.


I don't think any other living being on this earth can attain this evolution of development. They are just living for the past millions of years and would continue to live in the same order until this universe collapse. They can not create anything out of other living creatures around them. They can not even learn from other living creatures for their personal life too. They are just stuck with their inbuilt intelligence unique to each of them. Nothing less, nothing more..


But it's we humans who have the gift of evolution. We are living in the same environment like any other living creatures. It's only due the exceptional "Brain & Mind", the combo of which is enabling us to understand more, explore more out of hidden intelligence.


And the point is, we are just using the "Granted Power of Brain-Mind". Only with this granted power (as a process of evolution) we could think, analyze, imitate and make the best of the knowledge.

The same humans with granted "Brain-Mind" can alone understand "GOD".

No other creatures can. They are just like our man made robots...

Note – The last two concluding notes can be considered only in context of the entire statement in this post. Quoting these last two lines alone for counter argument would be just hogwash, IMO.

 

[nachi naga]

god exists even when we dont have consciousness,as god is beyond consciousness as well,consciousness is god too.existance is god .death of body is god and the indweller is god.hiranyagarbha is god and we live within god.we imagine only a part of god and have a vision within our limited sense perception.to write is because of god.to comprehend is because of god.to debate is because of god.and god is within all of us as we are god particle.some like to make our asura particle within us predominant that also is god leela.we come from god and go back to godhead god foot godbrain godstomach.all is god nothing but god.labels are different avatars are many but truth is one.

 

[biswa]

Just a point of clarification: Are we talking only of Hindu gods and mythology here?

Or are we dealing with Vishnu, Allah, Zeus, and the Holy Trinity all rolled into one?

Surely the other religions have a say here, instead of just a Hindus vs Atheists debate?