Heirarchy of 21st century Brāhmanas

[kunjuppu]

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dear tks !
it is written as a fun . but i could measure your inner heart feeling for the state of brahmin community

dear guru,

what is your measurement or diagnosis of 'inner heart feeling for the state of brahmin community'?

apparently, from the posts of ozone or prasad or sarangan, i am at the wrong end of understanding 'the state of brahmin community'. i mention names as to not to insinuate that i am innuendo-ing. that is all, and not with a view to accusation or from a derogatory sense. hope this satisfactorily explains the reasons for this query.

guru, please enlighten me. please.

thank you.

 

[Yamaka]

Okay, just to digress a little bit, here is another Hierarchy in India that many people here can be proud of:

Top of the Hierarchy: About 1 million RICH people (inherited wealth, some new money, mostly the corrupted people)
Upper Middle Class : About 10 million people with College degree
Lower Middle Class : About 80 million people who have passed the High School.
Dirt Poor Class : About 1110 million people who languish under the bottom of the Pyramid. After 64 years of Independence!

When will we collapse this Pyramidal Hierarchy?

Can God People take a crack on this?

 

[prasad1]

dear guru,

what is your measurement or diagnosis of 'inner heart feeling for the state of brahmin community'?

apparently, from the posts of ozone or prasad or sarangan, i am at the wrong end of understanding 'the state of brahmin community'. i mention names as to not to insinuate that i am innuendo-ing. that is all, and not with a view to accusation or from a derogatory sense. hope this satisfactorily explains the reasons for this query.

guru, please enlighten me. please.

thank you.

Mr. K,
What did I say?

 

[kunjuppu]

Mr. K,
What did I say?

oh, dear prasad, i just have this feeling, that may be unfounded, that you may be finding my views extreme and unpalatable. i am trying to still understand why.

i am covering all bases. that is all..

 

[prasad1]

Every organization has some Pyramidal Hierarchy. That is the only way for effective execution.
You can not run a company, groups, military with out Pyramidal Hierarchy.
I can understand and support equal opportunity, and a level playing field for our personal growth.

But we can compete with Chelsea Clinton for job opportunity. So even expecting equal opportunity goes so far.

In social settings, there should not be any Pyramidal Hierarchy.

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear renuka !
the same question i placed in this forum and i am yet to get answer . i think at least this time it will be answered.my prohithar said as per vedas upanayanam should be performed once again to become brahmin .

 

[prasad1]

oh, dear prasad, i just have this feeling, that may be unfounded, that you may be finding my views extreme and unpalatable. i am trying to still understand why.

i am covering all bases. that is all..

I can tell you the my true feelings write me a PM. In this tread we agreed. But in general I do not like to blame a whole community for the despicable actions of few.
Like you said in one of your earlier post, we should have some common grounds.:tea:

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear kunjuppu sir !
regarding your post #51
i can find the symptom of the illness and i am not in a position to tell the remedy as a doctor. i am also sailing in the same boat.
regards,
guruvayurappan

 

[Raghy]

dear raghy,

Can you please explain, why the religiosity of living, is identified by, in this day and age, as ‘brahminical way of living’? perhaps you have been brought up to understand this, I can understand. But you have been in OZ for several years now, and do you still feel, that such religiosity as you defined, is ‘brahminical’ ie denoting as belonging to a particular caste?

Is it not possible, for all castes, including dalits, to practise such?

Recently I read in a blog, from a NB lady. She went to this temple, and as we all know, most of us, throw some coins into the archakar’s plate when we receive the prasadam (viboothi, kungumam & flowers or Perumal thoppi on head).

My attitude towards this, is I would rather give a little extra to the archakar than put it in the hundi.

This blogger had the opposite view of mine. she always avoids archakar donation, as she feels these are salaried by the HRCE (she is in tamil nadu) and she believes money in the hundi goes for temples upkeep. That is her prerogative. But her plaint, was the last time when she went to the temple, she did not donate to the archakar, and was bypassed the prasadam giving, which she has detailed here.

It makes painful reading and I am very embarrassed to belong to a priestly class which has inbuilt ‘brahministical’ feelings as expounded here. What do you say?

gurukkal

this is what I mean by brahminical practices as viewed by NBs. Almost every NB I know has some bad experience in their lifetime brahmins. Do you think they are all exaggerating? Or making much ado about nothing?

What would we have done in such circumstances? I know I have the brahmin kalai and always get respect in the temples. Sometimes to my own embarassment, when I am offered prasadams, out of line (it happened in pittsburgh perumal temple a few weeks ago).

Dear Sri.Kunjuppu, Greetings.

I am not defining any 'brahminical way of living'. Sri. Nara in post #44 quoted Sri.Sangom's message in post #23, where Sri.Sangom pointed out the psche of brahmins. When I shared my point of view for the post #44, I continued to mention certain rituals as 'brahminical way of living', quoting the original message. I did mention in post #48, such rituals are not exclusive to brahmin community, other communities also follow similar rituals. As a youngster, I grew up deviod of such rituals. I did not follow any such ritual, still I was either called 'Paarppanaa' or 'samy'. I did not get offended by either way of addresses; Even while I was in the primary school, I knew, the word 'paarppan' was not derogatory. Since I was comfortable, obody used that word in a derogatory sense either.

As I mentioned in post #48, some rituals as mentioned by me are followed by some other castes too. Harijans also follow their own rituals just like any other community. We have to move with that community closely to observe/for them to share their rituals.

I read the blog about Gurukkal. This has happened to me too. It happened to me, of all the places, in Brisbane! A same pillayar koil too. My wife took a lot of effort to keep me calmed down. I left without a word, of course. In my case, it was not just the disbursement of prasadam though; a bit worst than that.

But, I consider such incidents as isolated. Gurukkal has to have a good human relations; the smaller the community, more important it becomes. In this instance, the said Gurukkal did not provide customer satisfaction. He is likely to loose that custom and few more by bad influence.

I don't have a 'Brahmin Kalai'. In the best of days, I look like a thief; I have a permanent mark under my left eye; most people think I just comeout of a brawl in the local bar. No, I am not kidding. In most temples I neither get a second glance, nor I care for them either. (I haven't been to any temple in years, except during my 2010 trip to India). But in most instances, if I care to get the attention I deserve, I will get that attention, even if I have to fight for one. The blogger did not want to have a showdown on the 'new year day'; bad choice! She is bothered by that incident so much, she wrote a blog accusing the Gurukkal. Well, New years day, one can easily imagine the crowd; this blog is one sided; we don't have the Gurukkal's side of the story. What if there was a geniuine human error due to the volume of the devotees? I am sorry, I can't take that blog on its face value while I don't know the other side of the story.

Why a NB hate brahmins across the board? I asked the question. At one time, I worked in New Market, Ontario in a permanent night shift job. There were just two of us keeping the tools in good repair during the 12 hour night shift. My partner was a person from Tamizh Nadu, a NB. He did not like me at all. So, after putting up with the hostile partner for 3 months, I asked him for the reason. He said he hated brahmins and he hated Malayalees then he said, I was both! It took 3 more months for him to realise I was not a Malayalee (I never said that to him), took another 2 more months to explain why he hated brahmins. He hated brahmins because, oly brahmins were called to conduct poojas in his home, that too in a strange language; he hated them because of the just one brahmin who did not explain to him while he was conducting the pooja in his home! So, I asked my partner if he ever asked the brahmin to explain the pooja; my pal did not. It took a while for him to realise, he could have changed thesituation by asking questions. Well, to make a long story short, I ws considered as the elderly advisor by him and by his wife; he considered my friendship with him as valuable; continued to ring me after I got back to OZ. Well, I just shared my experiences.By he way, I had more NB friends than B friends at anytime. So, my case can't be taken as a general case either.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

I can tell you the my true feelings write me a PM. In this tread we agreed. But in general I do not like to blame a whole community for the despicable actions of few.
Like you said in one of your earlier post, we should have some common grounds.:tea:

thanks prasad.

like everyone else here, there is agreements and disagreements. i just hope to avoid ill feelings,as i feel, we should all able to discuss what we think, provided it is expressed civilly and politely.

we will hit upon our areas of mutual agreements probably elsewhere too, but let us do it publicly, for then eventual the public too will profit.

thanks again.

 

[mskmoorthy]

My response may be an example for this adage:
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread

This video may answer some of the questions regarding prayaschitham (if I understand them correctly)

A discourse by Dr. S Kalyanaraman Neuro Surgeon from Chennai. This video is 21 minutes long - If you do not have time to listen fully , please listen (particular explanation comes around) from 4:00 minute mark till 7:55

Sri Rathnagiriswarar Temple Sadas - Dr. S Kalyanaraman

 

[kunjuppu]

..Like you said in one of your earlier post, we should have some common grounds.:tea:

dear prakash,

i am trying to understand the use of smiles. i use happy and sad many times because i think they add some value to my post, or when i add happy, just to reinforce that the post is in light humour, and not too serious.

you have posted a tea here. does it mean that we should drink tea together? why tea? and not coffee?

and what is the purpose of the two mugs tapping each other.

i am earnest in this query, for the other day a lady poster posted a smiley in reply to me, which looked like a mock to me. when i asked for an explanation, she said that it had nothing to do with making fun of or insulting me. still i did not have the explanation of 'why' that particular smiley.

thank you.

 

[prasad1]

dear prakash,

i am trying to understand the use of smiles. i use happy and sad many times because i think they add some value to my post, or when i add happy, just to reinforce that the post is in light humour, and not too serious.

you have posted a tea here. does it mean that we should drink tea together? why tea? and not coffee?

and what is the purpose of the two mugs tapping each other.

i am earnest in this query, for the other day a lady poster posted a smiley in reply to me, which looked like a mock to me. when i asked for an explanation, she said that it had nothing to do with making fun of or insulting me. still i did not have the explanation of 'why' that particular smiley.

thank you.

I hope you meant Prasad,
Every smiley expresses an emotion, but both parties have to be on the same page.
It was just to say that we should share a drink, like friends.
Only tea was available (and I do drink gallon of it). Coffee was not a symbol available. It is a toast like they do with champagne, I was drinking to your health. LOL (hopefully laughing with you).

 

[kunjuppu]

dear prakash,

that is what i thought. just to confirm.

the previous smileys thrown at me where


:laser:

:whip:

:behindsofa:

:llama:

which were not relevant to the reply or were in context that i was unable to fathom.

folks here use smileys freely, and i am sure, that sometimes if they meant to tell me something, i would rather they do it openly, so that i can understand the nature of their plaint, and many an instance, i am wrong, and am in a learning mode.

that is all.

i thank you again. regards (much)..

 

[renuka]

When I read some of the post here about Brahmin Kalai..I remember this funny incident here.
Once an Iyengar priest out here(from India BTW) was telling me that now days Brahmins dont look as good as before becos its Kaliyuga and Brahmin life style is on the decline.
He was using the word Brahmana Tejas.He said they lacked the Tejas..he said before if a Brahmin were to walk on the road you can see his Tejas.
and he added that by right he should be more handsome than what he is now.

So I thought I will tease him a little..so I asked him "how does the Tejas look like"
He said a Brahmana of yesteryears had a radiant look and I asked him "Tejas as in Surya Koti Sama Prabha ?" and he smiled and said "yes yes a bit like that"

Then I asked him "why you say you should be more handsome? Now itself you look good enough almost like Vikram" and to my suprise he was really excited and said "really?? you think so?"and started singing the then famous song "Excuse me Mr Kandasamy.."
That was the last time I ever teased any Iyengar priest!!

 

[tks]

dear tks !
it is written as a fun . but i could measure your inner heart feeling for the state of brahmin community

Sri Guru - I am not visiting the site often, pardon delay in my response.

Actually I do not have any 'inner heart feelings' for the state of the Brahmin community since I would not know how to even define such a community.

Like some people, I am against narrow minded acts and posts, and against generalized prejudices of a group being applied to any member of group or what their group may represent.

In that sense I do not care for posts that show narrow minded prejudices against any group or what they may represent (e.g., including brahmins or any other group). In my mind there is no such thing as Brahminism - it is silly to assign attributes and denigrate it. In a way posts that pull anyone down by generalizations reflect a hypocritical reasoning and narrow minded thinking in my book. I do not expect anyone to agree to this, so no responses needed.

My opening post had nothing to do with caste though I used two explosive words - Brahmin (this site has this name), and the word hierarchy!

There are always differences in people, their capabilities and what they accomplish in life. Such differences are inherent in life. So it is immature in my view to think that hierarchy is a bad word!

My opening post primarily organized people by content of character consistent with meaning and expectation of the Sanskrit word Brahmin.
If anyone noticed my examples included people born outside India and therefore not born as Brahmin in this hierarchy.

Also I did not mention that Indians living outside India are lower in the hierarchy implying anything about the content of their character. I only gave examples of behavior of some - people ready to provide balanced views about their own adopted country but ready to criticize India at the drop of a hat. Any misinterpretations of this by generalization is a deliberate mischief in my view and hence I am not dignifying those posts with a response

As always most discussions strayed to the same topic of caste issues.

I am reminded of situation while growing up.

In my middle school days we used to memorize essays in English, Hindi, Sanskrit etc. We hope that they ask one of the known essay in the exam.
Some of us may have memorized essays on Cow or Dog but the exam may ask us write about Food.

Well, the trick is to start writing about flood and then observe a cow or dog floating in the water. Then we write about the topic we know which would be about cow or dog LoL


Regards

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Tks,
I accept your explanation of your original post.
But I still fail to see the point you are making in your original post.
Why should there be gradation of birth based groups? What criteria is used in this rating? Who is rating?

 

[guruvayurappan]

Sri Guru - I am not visiting the site often, pardon delay in my response.

Actually I do not have any 'inner heart feelings' for the state of the Brahmin community since I would not know how to even define such a community.

Like some people, I am against narrow minded acts and posts, and against generalized prejudices of a group being applied to any member of group or what their group may represent.

In that sense I do not care for posts that show narrow minded prejudices against any group or what they may represent (e.g., including brahmins or any other group). In my mind there is no such thing as Brahminism - it is silly to assign attributes and denigrate it. In a way posts that pull anyone down by generalizations reflect a hypocritical reasoning and narrow minded thinking in my book. I do not expect anyone to agree to this, so no responses needed.

My opening post had nothing to do with caste though I used two explosive words - Brahmin (this site has this name), and the word hierarchy!

There are always differences in people, their capabilities and what they accomplish in life. Such differences are inherent in life. So it is immature in my view to think that hierarchy is a bad word!

My opening post primarily organized people by content of character consistent with meaning and expectation of the Sanskrit word Brahmin.
If anyone noticed my examples included people born outside India and therefore not born as Brahmin in this hierarchy.

Also I did not mention that Indians living outside India are lower in the hierarchy implying anything about the content of their character. I only gave examples of behavior of some - people ready to provide balanced views about their own adopted country but ready to criticize India at the drop of a hat. Any misinterpretations of this by generalization is a deliberate mischief in my view and hence I am not dignifying those posts with a response

As always most discussions strayed to the same topic of caste issues.

I am reminded of situation while growing up.

In my middle school days we used to memorize essays in English, Hindi, Sanskrit etc. We hope that they ask one of the known essay in the exam.
Some of us may have memorized essays on Cow or Dog but the exam may ask us write about Food.

Well, the trick is to start writing about flood and then observe a cow or dog floating in the water. Then we write about the topic we know which would be about cow or dog LoL


Regards

thanks tks sir !
i am able to understand your stand points and will take as guideline for posting in the forum.
regards,
guruvayurappan

 

[tks]

Mr. Tks,
I accept your explanation of your original post.
But I still fail to see the point you are making in your original post.
Why should there be gradation of birth based groups? What criteria is used in this rating? Who is rating?

Sri Prasad -

The point of the post is for us to think about what the meaning of the word Brahmana mean .

In this century the new Brahmins may not be just from Indian origin only if one goes by the expectations implied in the word.

Due to traditions there are many that believe they are Brahmins only by birth and in my mind there are those who are harmless to others with that thinking.
Then there are those who are harmful to others by their actions, words and deeds.

I admit that all this hierarchy and organization is somewhat arbitrary.

Regards

 

[prasad1]

The way we spell sometimes is misleading.
Brahmin= caste generally birth based. May also mean Guna based.
Brahman=Supreme self, universal soul, God (from Advaita)

We need to clarify what we mean.

 

[tks]

The way we spell sometimes is misleading.
Brahmin= caste generally birth based. May also mean Guna based.
Brahman=Supreme self, universal soul, God (from Advaita)

We need to clarify what we mean.

There was no spelling mistake as far as I know! The first line in the first item of the opening post had this clarification , admittedly cryptic.

Brahmana is Brahmin - like Thanjavur is Tanjore.

 

[Nara]

My response may be an example for this adage:
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread

This video may answer some of the questions regarding prayaschitham (if I understand them correctly)

A discourse by Dr. S Kalyanaraman Neuro Surgeon from Chennai.

Dear mskmoorthy, taking just the two of us, a quick look at the count of posts by you and me surely would leave no doubt as to who the fool is and who the angle is .

Be that as it may, I watched the entire 21+ minutes of the video and the most striking aspect of the video, to me, is how similar the views expressed in it are within the SV community -- change the horizontal on the forehead to vertical, "periyaval" to "Azhagiya Singar", "chandramouliswar" to "Lakshminrisimha", that is all, none of the sycophantic detail need any alteration.

I have no doubt the respected Dr. is a brilliant surgeon, great humanitarian, and all around nice person; so, when I say the speech filled with hyperbolic adulation for an acharya of questionable social conscience leaves one squirming, I mean no disrespect.

This is what is emblematic of religiosity, it demands shishyas to go overboard with their adoration, if one says he has seen the Acharya walk on water, the other has to up the ante and say he has been blessed with the sight of seeing the acharya fly; if one says the acharya can read his mind, another has to up the ante and say the acharya sends thoughts to his mind and guides him in everything he does.

I have seen this play out many times. This mindset is fertile grounds for superstitions to grow and flourish. This is not good for the community. Escalating sycophantic adulation is not a surrogate measure for true respect.

Cheers!

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

A few years before,I read a news item that a lady from an European country visited the Shiva temple in Rameshwaram and witnessed the
'Pradosha Pooja'.She was very much pleased.On returning to her country,she remitted money(equivalent to Rs.1 crore)and requested the
temple authorities that her donation to the temple may be utilised exclusively for 'Pradosha Pooja'

As usual,her donation was not even acknowledged by the temple authorities.A lady from Ramanathapuram Maharaja family who is a Trustee of the Temple happened to see the letter from the European lady felt sad that the donation has been accepted but not acknowledged. She immediately arranged to get in touch with that lady
and wanted to give that Lady a Grand Welcome when she visited the temple next time.
I want to know from the enlightened members of this Forum to which 'VARNA' or 'CASTE' or'HIERARCHY' this noble lady should be assigned.

 

[renuka]

A few years before,I read a news item that a lady from an European country visited the Shiva temple in Rameshwaram and witnessed the
'Pradosha Pooja'.She was very much pleased.On returning to her country,she remitted money(equivalent to Rs.1 crore)and requested the
temple authorities that her donation to the temple may be utilised exclusively for 'Pradosha Pooja'

As usual,her donation was not even acknowledged by the temple authorities.A lady from Ramanathapuram Maharaja family who is a Trustee of the Temple happened to see the letter from the European lady felt sad that the donation has been accepted but not acknowledged arranged to get in touch with that lady
and wanted to give that Lady a Grand Welcome when she visited the temple next time.
I want to know from the enlightened members of this Forum to which 'VARNA' or 'CASTE' or'HIERARCHY' this noble lady should be assigned.

I am not enlightened but let me give my opinion here.
Why assign her any Varna..is she asking for it?Do we need to even classify the act of donation and assign a Varna for that?
For all I know she wouldnt even desire the grand welcome.

 

[renuka]

There was no spelling mistake as far as I know! The first line in the first item of the opening post had this clarification , admittedly cryptic.

Brahmana is Brahmin - like Thanjavur is Tanjore.

Brahman is as we know .....Supreme Self.

One who realizes Brahman is a Braahmana.

Just like a worshipper of Vishnu is a Vaishnava,
a worshipper of Shiva is a Shaiva.
Son of Vasudeva is Vaasudeva,Son of Raghu is Raaghava etc.

Its called Taddhita,Its a grammar rule here where its denotes sense of belonging.