How can we encourage our kids to go to temple more?

[sravna]

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Dear Shri KRS, Shri Yamaka,

Sorry for intruding. I think science has not addressed even the 'how' question of the creation of the universe let alone all the 'whys'

Dear Sri Yamaka Ji,

Okay, we agree on your first point.

But before going further. your point #2, it does not exactly address my point #2. On what basis you are asserting that S&T can explain the 'why', while I explained two reasons why it can not be? What is your rational argument against my assertions to refute this hypothesis, based on logic? Is your belief that science will be able to answer the question on the 'big' issue based on 'faith' in science?

I am a theist. But not because I am a TB from Trichy. I will surprise you on this account, because I do not fit in to the traditional role of a conservative TB as is assumed by you. But again, you are jumping the gun. Let us go step by step in our discussions. Let me wait for your response to my above question.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Sri Yamaka Ji,

Okay, we agree on your first point.

But before going further. your point #2, it does not exactly address my point #2. On what basis you are asserting that S&T can explain the 'why', while I explained two reasons why it can not be? What is your rational argument against my assertions to refute this hypothesis, based on logic? Is your belief that science will be able to answer the question on the 'big' issue based on 'faith' in science?

I am a theist. But not because I am a TB from Trichy. I will surprise you on this account, because I do not fit in to the traditional role of a conservative TB as is assumed by you. But again, you are jumping the gun. Let us go step by step in our discussions. Let me wait for your response to my above question.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS:

I have answered point #2 to the extent that I know now..

We can continue or leave the matter here.

The purpose of this Thread is how one could answer to 15 year old youngsters growing up in large cities, if they come up with the questions I asked you..

I believe if one can answer them convincingly, then they will be eager to go to temples for prayers, poojas and bhajans.. otherwise, they will walk away from God, Religion and Worship, as I did about 40 years ago!

That's all.

Regards.

Y

 

[Servall]

Mr. KRS:

So the question is what 'natural force' is responsible for this event and what existed before the bang? The problem in saying that it was a 'natural force' is that nature and the laws of cause and effect did not exist then, because space and time which produce cause and effect did not exist. So, one can not call it 'natural' as we understand the term. We can call that force 'super natural', 'extra natural', 'deity' as St. Francis, the intellectual theologian of Christianity called it. We call it 'God'.

Very well said.
Y, I fully agree with your assertion as to SET's contribution to mankind. Having said this, science could explain only so much but there are too many things, that couldnt be explained by science. The beginnning of it all, after millions of years after evolution, still remains a mystery which you have not convincingly explained how it came about. Many of us theists, as KRS calls it, attribute it beyond nature, super-natural, extra-natural or God.

We believe these are outside the realms of nature, mysterious to mankind, and I think fall in the ambit of 'grander scheme' unknown to any man.

Until you cannot explain it, the concept of God will remain, that is, forever.

Peace....

 

[Yamaka]

Mr. KRS:



Very well said.
Y, I fully agree with your assertion as to SET's contribution to mankind. Having said this, science could explain only so much but there are too many things, that couldnt be explained by science. The beginnning of it all, after millions of years after evolution, still remains a mystery which you have not convincingly explained how it came about. Many of us theists, as KRS calls it, attribute it beyond nature, super-natural, extra-natural or God.

We believe these are outside the realms of nature, mysterious to mankind, and I think fall in the ambit of 'grander scheme' unknown to any man.

Until you cannot explain it, the concept of God will remain, that is, forever.

Peace....

Dear Servall and others:

My point has been

1. SET has a PROCESS in place - to investigate all the mysteries of Nature very methodically. This PROCESS will get to all the HOWs and WHYs in course of time. Look how much we know in the past 300 years since the Industrial Revolution started.

2. Even if most of the mysteries of Nature remain unresolved in a matter of time X, and these mysteries are called GOD to some of you,

How does THAT BELIEF validate the need for prayers, poojas and bhajans in Temples, Mosques or Churches?

How do you explain that "the Forces of such Mysteries or Secrets of such Mysteries" demand a constant Adoration and Aaraadhana by the worshipers in the form of PPB?

3. As I said elsewhere, I can call Sun as my God: Look up every day and admire it.. Where's the compulsion in me to worship it?

I don't have any reason to worship it as the way the People of Faith do for my livelihood..

4. Some people say "Worship brings somehow HAPPINESS".. Maybe, very TRANSIENTLY. . Is it really giving happiness long term? If it is, HOW and WHY?

Cheers.

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear y !
your quote "I believe if one can answer them convincingly, then they will be eager to go to temples for prayers, poojas and bhajans.. otherwise, they will walk away from God, Religion and Worship, as I did about 40 years ago!" is very appropriate to this post how to make our children go to temple.
but what is your explanation for science inventions used against humanity? how to regulate ? i think the moral teaching in the name of religion from childhood will help to some extent. selfless service will be the cure for all evils born out of materialistic life.
cheers

 

[Yamaka]

dear y !
your quote "I believe if one can answer them convincingly, then they will be eager to go to temples for prayers, poojas and bhajans.. otherwise, they will walk away from God, Religion and Worship, as I did about 40 years ago!" is very appropriate to this post how to make our children go to temple.
but what is your explanation for science inventions used against humanity? how to regulate ? i think the moral teaching in the name of religion from childhood will help to some extent. selfless service will be the cure for all evils born out of materialistic life.
cheers

Dear Guru:

1. Why is SET used against humanity?

This is a very important and very relevant question.

If you read the life and achievements of Alfred Nobel - the inventor of dynamite and various war machines - you will get the feeling he was constantly tormented with this idea for a long time: as a scientist he invented technologies that could have lethal impacts on Society in the hands of "bad guys".

Dynamite, if used properly, can have profound use and impact in massive constructions of roads and buildings, and war machines have profound "protective" cover to any Society against potential warmongers.

I agree SET can be used as a two sided sword - to help us and to hurt us if misused.

2. How to regulate it?

Only by a widespread use of liberal education to make the Society understand the perils of environmental degradation, over-use of antibiotics, vile and venality of armed conflicts etc etc.

I don't think MORAL teachings in the name of Religion can achieve this.

3. How to instill morality and civic responsibility in youngsters?

Again by widespread use of liberal education and forcing youngsters to think RATIONALLY to "live peacefully with all our neighbors" to "collaborate and grow together as a community or Society" to "succeed at the end together".... etc. etc.

I don't think a blind Belief or Faith in God will ever accomplish this task, unless we define and clearly articulate what or who that God is and HIS mode of operation in this Universe.

More later....



ps. Also, please remember, God and Religion ALSO has created great conflicts in the past and the present: Eg Crusades to occupy and re-occupy Jerusalem, current conflicts with Fundamentalist Islam against Modernity of the West etc.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Yamaka,

As I have said, it seems to me that you 'believe' that Science will know this supernatural entity, regardless of my bringing up a couple of reasons, why it will not be possible! . This is important because Science then becomes in the inquiry of what 'God' and the relationship we have with that entity, on par with any philosophical/religious thought. This is what the kids need to understand.

Is there a better method to understand our physical world than Science? In my opinion, no. But can Science explain the metaphysical world better than Religion? Not really. The mistake that many folks who regard science as religion to answer the big questions like, 'who am I?", "where did I come from?", "where do I go after I die?" are all questions that Science can not adequately answer. This is why Science will never replace Religion to answer these questions to the mankind to the satisfaction of the human kind. A person is not just a physical body, but, a growing social organism conditioned by culture and upbringing meeting with one's thinking process through out ones's life, needing to come to terms with the questions like the ones I posed above, that are being asked by human beings from the dawn of time.

Please read this:
Q&A with Barbara Bradley Hagerty: Can Science Help Find God? - TIME

I will also tell the youngsters that Science can not replace Religion and both are needed to sustain the human beings. Belief about God is natural to a human being (at least for the majority in the world), and knowing and adhering to what Science says is also an imperative to live a healthy and informed life. They can live side by side for ever without ever meeting with each other with respect to the big questions in a human's life.

This is why I do not understand why you would belittle folks who are theists.

I will continue in my next post after your response on some religious concepts like reincarnation and souls.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS:

I have answered point #2 to the extent that I know now..

We can continue or leave the matter here.

The purpose of this Thread is how one could answer to 15 year old youngsters growing up in large cities, if they come up with the questions I asked you..

I believe if one can answer them convincingly, then they will be eager to go to temples for prayers, poojas and bhajans.. otherwise, they will walk away from God, Religion and Worship, as I did about 40 years ago!

That's all.

Regards.

Y

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Sri Yamaka,

As I have said, it seems to me that you 'believe' that Science will know this supernatural entity, regardless of my bringing up a couple of reasons, why it will not be possible! . This is important because Science then becomes in the inquiry of what 'God' and the relationship we have with that entity, on par with any philosophical/religious thought. This is what the kids need to understand.

Is there a better method to understand our physical world than Science? In my opinion, no. But is Science can explain the metaphysical world better than Religion? Not really. The mistake that many folks who regard science as religion to answer the big questions like, 'who am I?", "where did I come from?", "where do I go after I die?" are all questions that Science can not adequately answer. This is why Science will never replace Religion to answer these questions to the mankind to the satisfaction of the human kind. A person is not just a physical body, but, a growing social organism conditioned by culture and upbringing meeting with one's thinking process through out ones's life, needing to come to terms with the questions like the ones I posed above, that are being asked by human beings from the dawn of time.

Please read this:
Q&A with Barbara Bradley Hagerty: Can Science Help Find God? - TIME

I will also tell the youngsters that Science can not replace Religion and both are needed to sustain the human beings. Belief about God is natural to a human being (at least for the majority in the world), and knowing and adhering to what Science says is also an imperative to live a healthy and informed life. They can and live side by side for ever without ever meeting with each other with respect to the big questions in a human's life.

This is why I do not understand why you would belittle folks who are theists.

I will continue in my next post after your response on some religious concepts like reincarnation and souls.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS:

Clearly, as a self proclaimed Atheist (a Secular thinker) I look at issues differently from a Theist.

1.SET most probably will not research on "Who the God is", as understood from the Holy Books. But, SET will try to uncover ALL the mysteries of Nature, and if possible, would harness its power to the betterment of the Society.

2. As an Atheist, this is what I understand:

Homo sapiens (humans) after about hundreds of millions of years of biological evolution from its predecessor (homo erectus) started acquiring language skills and abstract thinking.. some of them started thinking about Super Natural Beings, which slowly became the Holy Books - Vedas/Scriptures (about 5000 - 10,000) years ago. These MEN started their Religions and started writing about their GODs.

Thus, Men created Religions which created their Gods..This IDEA got good following because of UNKNOWN things like human health, diseases, disease-causing agents etc.

About 300 years ago, Industrial Revolution started in earnest and the SET started growing in leaps and bounds answering all sorts of UNKNOWN questions of matters around us... once the knowledge base increased to a critical mass, man started asking the TRUTH & utility of the ancient Religions and Gods...

Here we are...

I am not belittling the Theists... Many of them have already moved away from their Orthodoxy - the Fundamentalist position to an Agno-Theistic position: they want to have some feable connection to the Traditional God and Religion. In course of time, most of these people in a generation or so would become Atheists or Agnostics..Already about 2.5 billion people in the world don't think about this Super Natural God, and they don't follow any Religion, and no prayers, poojas and bhajans!

This is My View of the World.

I am not interested in knowing about the Religions and the Traditional Gods - the Super Natural Power out their controlling ALL activities of ALL things in this world (as per the Holy Books).

Regards.

Y



ps."I will also tell the youngsters that Science can not replace Religion and both are needed to sustain the human beings. Belief about God is natural to a human being (at least for the majority in the world), and knowing and adhering to what Science says is also an imperative to live a healthy and informed life. They can and live side by side for ever without ever meeting with each other with respect to the big questions in a human's life."

This is your highly compromised view; many of the Theists here (like dear Sravna) will not accept it. I don't like either. Here you want the "Cake and Eat it Too" - You want Religion AND SET, both are quite incompatible in its basic premise: one is a Faith or a Belief forbidding REASONING like "how, why, why not", while the other starts with the sound REASONING! Lol.

 

[tks]

Dear Sri Yamaka,

I used to be a Physicist before my corporate life. Just to provide some context.

Let me respond:

1. Almost everyone (there are some recent developments by Hawkings that deviates from this, but only with a substitute theory that many universes exist and the big bang may be a product, but then this goes back to the question of how those universes come in to being and other cumbersome questions) agree now that the 'big bang' started with an event from a singular sub atomic entity. It is also agreed that the space time continuum started with the event. So the question is what 'natural force' is responsible for this event and what existed before the bang? The problem in saying that it was a 'natural force' is that nature and the laws of cause and effect did not exist then, because space and time which produce cause and effect did not exist. So, one can not call it 'natural' as we understand the term. We can call that force 'super natural', 'extra natural', 'deity' as St. Francis, the intellectual theologian of Christianity called it. We call it 'God'.

2. Science can not explain 'why', it can say 'how'. Well we know from science that there is gravitational pull, but it can not explain, why there is such a pull. All the 'why's even if explained by science, will always ultimately bump in to the ultimate question - what existed or what caused the 'big bang'. There are couple of reasons for this. First there is nothing left in evidence of what existed before the bang, because the physical world started then and also by a well known system theory one can not understand what lies outside of a closed system, if one is part of that system. We are a part and parcel of a closed system called a Universe or several Universes.

Let me stop here and ask your input. If you agree with my thesis above, I will foray in to the role of philosophy and religion in our lives.

Regards,
KRS

Sri KRS -

I came to visit here after a while to see how my special friends in the forum are doing and it is a pleasure to see you posting here.

When I joined the forum earlier in the year I was impressed with your thoughtful, sensitive and measured approach to moderation though that role was unfortunately not understood in the minds of some that you could be a contributor sharing your views at the same time as well. I am happy to see you here as a posting Veteran!

As an ex-Physicist (with more focus on theory than experiment in my PhD days here in America) with a corporate career I can now understand why I may have resonated well with some of your posts in the past.

To have a reasonable discussion on topics such as this I realize that one needs commitment to academic integrity to truly want to learn the mysteries of the world. I know the usage of the word Integrity in one of your posts generated a lot of attention - I remember those details more because I was still relatively new to the workings of this forum then!

Second, regardless of formal academic qualifications which is often irrelevant , one needs critical thinking and abstraction skills . Otherwise statements such as this "well known system theory one can not understand what lies outside of a closed system, if one is part of that system. We are a part and parcel of a closed system called a Universe or several Universes" by you will never be understood by anyone wanting to debate.

Almost all Hindus make up their own theory about God, religion etc. This also complicates their world view since they are almost always wrong and any challenges in a reasonable setting will reveal weakness in their understanding. Commitment to learn from proper teacher becomes important. In some sense the self proclaimed Atheists have been doing a service by taking some people to task

Without these three attributes - commitment to academic integrity to search for truth, well developed abilities in critical thinking and abstraction skills. and commitment to learn from qualified teacher of universal principles it is not possible to teach anyone much less children who will ask questions such as 'why should one go to a temple'..

I don't intend to visit this forum often but do want to share a few thoughts while I am here.

- There is a world of knowledge that can be understood without "faith" or a belief system. Often faith means suspension of reasoning abilities in my view

- Since Upanishads (Vedanta) and its teaching is NOT about faith there is no room for belief based GOD. In fact Theism does not mean belief in a Personal God at all. For the curious you are welcome to research into this on your own

- Atheists are believers - it is a belief system to say something does not exist which cannot be proven or dis-proven. Also human beings are not born as theists or atheists by conventional meaning of the word. We are all born ignorant and many of us stay that way for most of our life

- Science and Technology are in the realms of Knowledge and they do not contradict any other time invariant and space invariant truths which is about knowledge.

-Upanishads cannot be understood by translation - they all refer to one subject matter and every description fits in like pieces in a puzzle but only a qualified teacher can bring this out. I am saying this from my experience.

- Contrary to some popular ideas they are not about Science and Technology at all. Any such ideas are always retrofits to Upanishads and arises from wrong understanding.

- Upanishads describe knowledge. Some of the Hindu traditions which fall under the umbrella of religion are based on that knowledge. However one does not have to be a Hindu to read and appreciate the universal knowledge that applies to all beings , not just human beings

My children both do PhD at MIT in Engineering areas and their need to understand about our universe without faith was important. They are exposed to some teachings of other religions but their respect for universal knowledge expounded in the Upanishads and B.Gita has enabled them to appreciate the profundity and apply to their day today life. They know why our Vedas and Vendanta (Upanishads) do not have a single commandment or have anything remotely resembling laws such as 'Sharia Laws".

With the right understanding it is possible to appreciate visits to the temples and celebrate religious functions.

I will respond to reasonable responses from anyone that are respectful, thoughtful and display commitment to a sense of academic integrity

KRS - Hope you are doing well

Regards

PS: The icon I chose is the personification of knowledge - nothing to do with a personal God

 

[kunjuppu]

When I joined the forum earlier in the year I was impressed with your thoughtful, sensitive and measured approach to moderation though that role was unfortunately not understood in the minds of some that you could be a contributor sharing your views at the same time as well. I am happy to see you here as a posting Veteran!

dear tks,

i share with you, your joy at seeing KRS back here. i have a question for you?

why are you trying to drive a wedge between KRS and others in this forum? do you realize, if KRS accepts your welcome praise, he is effectively agreeing that they are dumbheads here who cannot differentiate between a moderator post and a private post - and forgetting that KRS usually qualifies his posts such. a red highlight is moderator. otherwise not.

thank you.

 

[ShivKC]

Sri KRS -


- Atheists are believers - it is a belief system to say something does not exist which cannot be proven or dis-proven. Also human beings are not born as theists or atheists by conventional meaning of the word. We are all born ignorant and many of us stay that way for most of our life

oh my! i was missing you for quite long time in that popular 'god exists' thread, and this is what the point i was driving all along in that thread, ie, 'atheist are just another faith mongers"

bowl back the 'russels tea pot' argument towards them, and see how its responded, by just replacing a single word 'some thing exists in universe' Vis a vis , no such tea pot exists out there.

similarly,the recent krs's 'first cause' i was banking on for quite some time.but no one was there to discuss in that level of platform.

having said, what stops you from coming here and debate often? awaiting a honest response.

 

[ShivKC]

dear tks,

i share with you, your joy at seeing KRS back here. i have a question for you?

why are you trying to drive a wedge between KRS and others in this forum? do you realize, if KRS accepts your welcome praise, he is effectively agreeing that they are dumbheads here who cannot differentiate between a moderator post and a private post - and forgetting that KRS usually qualifies his posts such. a red highlight is moderator. otherwise not.

thank you.

let me share a frank view..scared if it would be deleted.

sh.krs is indeed an intellectual person, with wide and broad view, with an amazing set of principles which he sticks to,come what the pressures be..

coming to moderation, i have my own apprehension. in my view, a moderator should mantle the crown of both the defense an prosecution attorney. may be a a kind of chamelon journalist, but definitely not a judge..

moderator should not be a judge... may be , like solomon pappaya of paTtimandam sun tv

 

[Yamaka]

Dear All: Ref Post 459 by Dr.tks

I know Dr.tks is a quite knowledgeable person, whose views are important to this Forum and the Society at large. Some I like, many I just don't agree. I record my response below in bold letters.

"Sri KRS -

I came to visit here after a while to see how my special friends in the forum are doing and it is a pleasure to see you posting here.

When I joined the forum earlier in the year I was impressed with your thoughtful, sensitive and measured approach to moderation though that role was unfortunately not understood in the minds of some that you could be a contributor sharing your views at the same time as well. I am happy to see you here as a posting Veteran!

It's a hard job for anyone to act as a Moderator AND a contributor..Dear KRS must be appreciated for his willingness to do it. I wish Praveen writes about his personal views on various topics; he prefers to stand on the sidelines! Why?

As an ex-Physicist (with more focus on theory than experiment in my PhD days here in America) with a corporate career I can now understand why I may have resonated well with some of your posts in the past.

To have a reasonable discussion on topics such as this I realize that one needs commitment to academic integrity to truly want to learn the mysteries of the world. I know the usage of the word Integrity in one of your posts generated a lot of attention - I remember those details more because I was still relatively new to the workings of this forum then!

Second, regardless of formal academic qualifications which is often irrelevant , one needs critical thinking and abstraction skills . Otherwise statements such as this "well known system theory one can not understand what lies outside of a closed system, if one is part of that system. We are a part and parcel of a closed system called a Universe or several Universes" by you will never be understood by anyone wanting to debate.

Almost all Hindus make up their own theory about God, religion etc. This also complicates their world view since they are almost always wrong and any challenges in a reasonable setting will reveal weakness in their understanding. Commitment to learn from proper teacher becomes important. In some sense the self proclaimed Atheists have been doing a service by taking some people to task

Thanks, Dr. tks.

Without these three attributes - commitment to academic integrity to search for truth, well developed abilities in critical thinking and abstraction skills. and commitment to learn from qualified teacher of universal principles it is not possible to teach anyone much less children who will ask questions such as 'why should one go to a temple'..

I agree.

I don't intend to visit this forum often but do want to share a few thoughts while I am here.

- There is a world of knowledge that can be understood without "faith" or a belief system. Often faith means suspension of reasoning abilities in my view

I agree.

- Since Upanishads (Vedanta) and its teaching is NOT about faith there is no room for belief based GOD. In fact Theism does not mean belief in a Personal God at all. For the curious you are welcome to research into this on your own

Very confusing here!

- Atheists are believers - it is a belief system to say something does not exist which cannot be proven or dis-proven. Also human beings are not born as theists or atheists by conventional meaning of the word. We are all born ignorant and many of us stay that way for most of our life

Totally disagree. Atheists are a group of people who don't agree with Theists, period. Humans are born Atheists. We are all born ignorant. But we learn and get enlightened as we grow up. This sentence is totally inflammatory!!

- Science and Technology are in the realms of Knowledge and they do not contradict any other time invariant and space invariant truths which is about knowledge.

I agree.

-Upanishads cannot be understood by translation - they all refer to one subject matter and every description fits in like pieces in a puzzle but only a qualified teacher can bring this out. I am saying this from my experience.

Good advice. I take this as a call for the Hindu Theists to learn Sanskrit well from a good teacher and then read the Vedas to understand the REAL meaning of the complicated texts.

- Contrary to some popular ideas they are not about Science and Technology at all. Any such ideas are always retrofits to Upanishads and arises from wrong understanding.

VERY interesting... "retrofits" is thought provoking!

- Upanishads describe knowledge. Some of the Hindu traditions which fall under the umbrella of religion are based on that knowledge. However one does not have to be a Hindu to read and appreciate the universal knowledge that applies to all beings , not just human beings

My children both do PhD at MIT in Engineering areas and their need to understand about our universe without faith was important. They are exposed to some teachings of other religions but their respect for universal knowledge expounded in the Upanishads and B.Gita has enabled them to appreciate the profundity and apply to their day today life. They know why our Vedas and Vendanta (Upanishads) do not have a single commandment or have anything remotely resembling laws such as 'Sharia Laws".

With the right understanding it is possible to appreciate visits to the temples and celebrate religious functions.

Doc, Please write about it to benefit our youngsters who may visit this site!

I will respond to reasonable responses from anyone that are respectful, thoughtful and display commitment to a sense of academic integrity

KRS - Hope you are doing well

Regards

PS: The icon I chose is the personification of knowledge - nothing to do with a personal God"

This is very confusing!

Cheers.

​

 

[tks]

oh my! i was missing you for quite long time in that popular 'god exists' thread, and this is what the point i was driving all along in that thread, ie, 'atheist are just another faith mongers"

bowl back the 'russels tea pot' argument towards them, and see how its responded, by just replacing a single word 'some thing exists in universe' Vis a vis , no such tea pot exists out there.

similarly,the recent krs's 'first cause' i was banking on for quite some time.but no one was there to discuss in that level of platform.

having said, what stops you from coming here and debate often? awaiting a honest response.

Sri ShivKC -

Thanks for your kind words.

Atheism or Theism both are based on a system of belief regardless of how that came about.Some even think Science is a religion!

The topic of this thread is probably not right to pursue why I am not here often.A simple answer was in this post.

I also have work commitments to run a mid-sized global R&D organization and travel comes in the way.

I have had no issues with moderators or forum owner.

However in my view people leave a forum if they perceive it is not sufficiently interesting or because they are not happy with a moderation action.
In one case I mentioned the mere mention of the word Integrity in a post as a contributor by Sri KRS caused a few to threaten to quit

I think people are guests of a forum and the forum owners get to dictate the rules and they should not be critiqued unless they ask for feedback,
However the guests and members have the option to leave . Any forum will do greatly if it attracts more critical thinkers that can lead to honest debates.



Regards

 

[tks]

[QUO

TE=Yamaka;112180]

Dear All: Ref Post 459 by Dr.tks

I know Dr.tks is a quite knowledgeable person, whose views are important to this Forum and the Society at large. Some I like, many I just don't agree. I record my response below in bold letters.

"Sri KRS -

I came to visit here after a while to see how my special friends in the forum are doing and it is a pleasure to see you posting here.


-

Since Upanishads (Vedanta) and its teaching is NOT about faith there is no room for belief based GOD. In fact Theism does not mean belief in a Personal God at all. For the curious you are welcome to research into this on your own

Very confusing here!

It is necessary to let go of one's belief systems and wrong notions to make sense of what I wrote. Your exposure to religion was a biblical religion based on what you have shared and you may be applying that model for everything you come across. Most ordinary Hindus have no idea why they follow a tradition and hence your extrapolation may seem justified. I am speaking about knowledge and teaching , not preaching and belief based systems.

-Upanishads cannot be understood by translation - they all refer to one subject matter and every description fits in like pieces in a puzzle but only a qualified teacher can bring this out. I am saying this from my experience.

Good advice. I take this as a call for the Hindu Theists to learn Sanskrit well from a good teacher and then read the Vedas to understand the REAL meaning of the complicated texts.

I sense that you may have carelessly responded with your own ideas rather than respond to what I wrote. I did not write anything about learning Sanskrit or reading complicated texts. I also did not mention Theism having any relevance in this context. Theism is based on a system of beliefs which is not the realm I am talking about. This study like all other serious studies require a great amount of infrastructure. The truth is not what it is because a scripture said so , however ancient it might be. This is not like some words of God that has to be preached..The topic can be understood in English. I came across recently a young woman in her late 20s from Brazil whose knowledge of the subject matter would make her a great teacher. Her knowledge of Sanskrit is minimal. Once again theism or atheism or any other ism arising out of belief system has no place here!


With the right understanding it is possible to appreciate visits to the temples and celebrate religious functions.

Doc, Please write about it to benefit our youngsters who may visit this site!
​

I have responded to a few inline comments.

Here is a part relevant to the thread topic in my view.

First of all there has to be a problem statement for one to solve which requires visiting temples. It is not necessary in my view.
Also the best way to teach anyone is to first learn a subject well and then practice what is learnt. Kids or anyone that comes across will naturally get attracted when a set of universal truth is presented with examples that apply to their life.








​

/QUOTE

 

[Yamaka]

[QUO

I have responded to a few inline comments.

Here is a part relevant to the thread topic in my view.

First of all there has to be a problem statement for one to solve which requires visiting temples. It is not necessary in my view.
Also the best way to teach anyone is to first learn a subject well and then practice what is learnt. Kids or anyone that comes across will naturally get attracted when a set of universal truth is presented with examples that apply to their life.

/QUOTE​

​

Dear Servall and other temple goers:

I agree with Dr.tks' statement that "Kids or anyone that comes across will naturally get attracted when a set of universal truth is presented with examples that apply to their life".

If you also do, then please articulate about "A Set of Universal Truths with Examples that apply to Your/Their Life".

Cheers.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

The thread "Stephen Hawking-There is no Heaven" is a closed thread.
Dr.P.V.Vartak a Scholar has given reply to various points raised by Mr.Stephen Hawking.
I attach the Note containing the reply of Dr.P.V.Vartak for information of all members.

*Dr.P.V.Vartak*,
M.B.B.S.,F.U.W.A.I., Ph.D.(Washington DC).
Founder President of *Veda Vidnyana Mandal (
https://sites.google.com/site/vvmpune)
*Founder President of *Adhyatma Samshodhan Mandir (
https://sites.google.com/site/asmandirpune)*
Address: 521 Shaniwar Peth, Pune 411030, Maharashtra, India.
www.drpvvartak.com
Phone.No.+91 020 24450387

__._,_.___

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Programmes are to be planned in such a way that are interested to the children
are to be conducted at frequent intervals at temples. Besides various competitive
nature of programmes are to be organized with attractive prizes to enable the children
to take part in them. While they visit the temples some audio & video clips can be
exhibited to attract them to stay there for sometime.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[Diviratha]

Namaste to all,
although education is a pretty individual question, let me just give you some rough general rules.

1) as we say in Germany: what is the use of education - the children anyway just imitate the parents! I strongly believe that the most important factor for educating the children is the example parents set.
2) The vedic method is to give unlimited freedom to children up to the age of 5 (of course this does not mean to let them run on the street or let them play with razor blades and the like). From 5 to 16: teach them what is right and what is wrong, give them strict rules etc. From the age of 16 treat them as friends.
3) Parents should be able to explain WHY respect, forgiveness, mercy, honesty etc. are values. They should be able to explain WHY culture and religious behavior is important. Before you can explain why it is preferable to develop a character like Rama instead of Ravana, parents must know themselfes the reasons.
4) Teaching the children respect to leaders, elders etc. includes the attitide of the parents to respect the decision of the children (especially if they are teenagers or older) if they want to follow the religion of the parents (or any other religion) or not. The faith of a person is the deepest level of his existence; one should respect the decision of a person for a certain religion.
5) If there is a God and if the law of reincarnation exists ( I personally believe in both) than there is no need to panic. Give the children a platform to start with religion/philosophy, give them the ability that they COULD practice a live according to dharma - and pray and help them that they will pick it up. If not - what can you do? Even Krsna does not force anyone to anything. Why should we?
6) Last but not least: have trust in Bhagavan. If a person is honestly seeking, He will help. Look at me. I was raised as a complete atheist. No spiritual guidance by my parents. But by the mercy of the Supreme I came in touch with the Vaisnavas at the age of 20. Their character and behavior touched me and I even spend 13 years at a monastery as a brahmacari (now I am a Grhastha).
As the saying goes: you can bring the cow to the well, but you cannot force the cow to drink.
You do not know what your children did last life, they have to go their way. Just be caring, loving, helpful. Guide them with your love and give a good example how to follow your "own" religion. If you can do this much - everyone will be satisfied.
Maybe this helps a bit. Jaya Sita Rama. Diviratha

 

[renuka]

Namaste to all,
although education is a pretty individual question, let me just give you some rough general rules.

1) as we say in Germany: what is the use of education - the children anyway just imitate the parents! I strongly believe that the most important factor for educating the children is the example parents set.
2) The vedic method is to give unlimited freedom to children up to the age of 5 (of course this does not mean to let them run on the street or let them play with razor blades and the like). From 5 to 16: teach them what is right and what is wrong, give them strict rules etc. From the age of 16 treat them as friends.
3) Parents should be able to explain WHY respect, forgiveness, mercy, honesty etc. are values. They should be able to explain WHY culture and religious behavior is important. Before you can explain why it is preferable to develop a character like Rama instead of Ravana, parents must know themselfes the reasons.
4) Teaching the children respect to leaders, elders etc. includes the attitide of the parents to respect the decision of the children (especially if they are teenagers or older) if they want to follow the religion of the parents (or any other religion) or not. The faith of a person is the deepest level of his existence; one should respect the decision of a person for a certain religion.
5) If there is a God and if the law of reincarnation exists ( I personally believe in both) than there is no need to panic. Give the children a platform to start with religion/philosophy, give them the ability that they COULD practice a live according to dharma - and pray and help them that they will pick it up. If not - what can you do? Even Krsna does not force anyone to anything. Why should we?
6) Last but not least: have trust in Bhagavan. If a person is honestly seeking, He will help. Look at me. I was raised as a complete atheist. No spiritual guidance by my parents. But by the mercy of the Supreme I came in touch with the Vaisnavas at the age of 20. Their character and behavior touched me and I even spend 13 years at a monastery as a brahmacari (now I am a Grhastha).
As the saying goes: you can bring the cow to the well, but you cannot force the cow to drink.
You do not know what your children did last life, they have to go their way. Just be caring, loving, helpful. Guide them with your love and give a good example how to follow your "own" religion. If you can do this much - everyone will be satisfied.
Maybe this helps a bit. Jaya Sita Rama. Diviratha

Well said, I can't find words to describe the wisdom in what you just shared with all of us.

This is song is for you..You will like this;


[video=youtube_share;3ep4Y16cWeg]http://youtu.be/3ep4Y16cWeg[/video]

 

[happyhindu]

Reg post # 469.

Shri Diviratha,

In my experience all religions are like onions; with the onion peels representing various socio-religious constructs created over various cultural phases. The more we understand the constructs deeply; peeling off layer by layer; there is nothing left in the end.

Must add, it is quite a liberating feeling, to realise that everything leads to nought. Whence from the nought did it all begin, and where it all leads to, i know not.

I gave myself plenty of religion/philosophical platforms, finally i am like the nasadiya sukta agnostic who wonders if a creator-god exists or not.

I worship though. For i feel, all gods (of egyptian, indian, celtic, chinese, etc) are ancestor spirits of the myriad peoples of earth, who can protect and nourish, and thereby fill a void in our neural networks (if one exists).

However, i have no use for religion..Back to square one in that regard.

Why am saying all this is because of the various points you mention. Despite all the grounding you give kids, they may end up like me.

I rightly agree with you that first "parents must know themselfes the reasons".

Parents need to give convincing answers to kids, like if they ask "if mahabali composed om namo bhagavate vasudevaya, why did 'vamana' send him to patala". An answer from the philosophical pov may not suffice everyone, your kid may start digging into the historical basis of such a religious contruct. And that may cause discomfort for some parents.

I would say, explore with your kids. Understand various underlying religious reasons, various philosophical concepts, try out various worship methods, basically explore various cultures, and see it all as a process of understanding yourself (instead of thinking you are guiding your kids).

Regards.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Yamaka,

My response in 'blue' below. Sorry for my tardiness.
QUOTE=Yamaka;112034]Dear KRS:

Clearly, as a self proclaimed Atheist (a Secular thinker) I look at issues differently from a Theist.

1.SET most probably will not research on "Who the God is", as understood from the Holy Books. But, SET will try to uncover ALL the mysteries of Nature, and if possible, would harness its power to the betterment of the Society.

What do you mean by "SET most probably will not research on "Who the God is", as understood from the Holy Books" ? Does this mean that Science will not explore who or what is reponsible for the Big Bang?

2. As an Atheist, this is what I understand:

Homo sapiens (humans) after about hundreds of millions of years of biological evolution from its predecessor (homo erectus) started acquiring language skills and abstract thinking.. some of them started thinking about Super Natural Beings, which slowly became the Holy Books - Vedas/Scriptures (about 5000 - 10,000) years ago. These MEN started their Religions and started writing about their GODs.

Thus, Men created Religions which created their Gods..This IDEA got good following because of UNKNOWN things like human health, diseases, disease-causing agents etc.

About 300 years ago, Industrial Revolution started in earnest and the SET started growing in leaps and bounds answering all sorts of UNKNOWN questions of matters around us... once the knowledge base increased to a critical mass, man started asking the TRUTH & utility of the ancient Religions and Gods...

Here we are...

Sir, again you are confusing between religion and science. Yes, the science has disproved that the earth is flat. But has it explained why Earth is a globe? When I say 'expalining' I am not talking about that the gravitational forces made it so. I am talking about the origin of those gravitational forces.

I am not belittling the Theists... Many of them have already moved away from their Orthodoxy - the Fundamentalist position to an Agno-Theistic position: they want to have some feable connection to the Traditional God and Religion. In course of time, most of these people in a generation or so would become Atheists or Agnostics..Already about 2.5 billion people in the world don't think about this Super Natural God, and they don't follow any Religion, and no prayers, poojas and bhajans!
Sorry sir. This is a wishful thinking. First of all, let me agree with you on one point. Blind adherence to faith's diction on day to day living will change as time progresses. Extreme examples are perhaps today's reasons for jihad. We all can agree that this is totally opposed to today's values of multi culturalism and living together peacefully. Every religion has such anachronistic notions, and, in my opinion, they will fall off. But what will not fall off is the notion that we are specs in the design of Universe and inquiry in to who we are.

Yes, the non believers always existed, and with a small percentage they always will, but I consider them as exceptions rather than mainstream, like homo sexuality in a majority hetero sexual universe.

This is My View of the World.

I am not interested in knowing about the Religions and the Traditional Gods - the Super Natural Power out their controlling ALL activities of ALL things in this world (as per the Holy Books).

I am surprised at this statement. Because the Abrahamic religions don't say that 'GOD' is controlling 'ALL activities of ALL things' as you say. Please let me know which Abrahamic religion says that!

Hinduism, by the way, certainly does not say that, as proved by the existence of Karma theory.

What are you sir, referring to here?

Regards.

Y



ps."I will also tell the youngsters that Science can not replace Religion and both are needed to sustain the human beings. Belief about God is natural to a human being (at least for the majority in the world), and knowing and adhering to what Science says is also an imperative to live a healthy and informed life. They can and live side by side for ever without ever meeting with each other with respect to the big questions in a human's life."

This is your highly compromised view; many of the Theists here (like dear Sravna) will not accept it. I don't like either. Here you want the "Cake and Eat it Too" - You want Religion AND SET, both are quite incompatible in its basic premise: one is a Faith or a Belief forbidding REASONING like "how, why, why not", while the other starts with the sound REASONING! Lol. [/QUOTE]

We have already established that the ultimate belief for both Religion and SET are the same, they are both based on BELIEF based on the question about the Creator. So, sorry sir, your argument does not hold any water. This is where, I am sorry, you do not seem to understand the differences between Metaphysics and Science, both, I may add are valid human inquiries. It is just that one accepts the unknown and the other pretends that it would uncloak all the unknowns with REASONING and LOGIC!

Regards,
KRS

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear krs !
i could understand your sincere belief in GOD( you are theist) and question to Mr.Y. but the quote"Yes, the non believers always existed, and with a small percentage they always will, but I consider them as exceptions rather than mainstream, like homo sexuality in a majority hetero sexual universe." is little bit harsh. again mr . yamaha will say science will explain only about a function known to him and not about the super natural powers
guruvayuarappan

 

[renuka]

dear krs !
i could understand your sincere belief in GOD( you are theist) and question to Mr.Y. but the quote"Yes, the non believers always existed, and with a small percentage they always will, but I consider them as exceptions rather than mainstream, like homo sexuality in a majority hetero sexual universe." is little bit harsh. again mr . yamaha will say science will explain only about a function known to him and not about the super natural powers
guruvayuarappan

I dont feel the comparison is harsh(unless you have an impression that being homosexual is abnormal).The comparison is more on lines of Majority Minority basis.

There is medical evidence that Homosexuals are some what neurologically variant from the average Heterosexual.

For all I know an Atheist and a Theist might differ Neurologically/Biochemically at a cerebral level.
We have to take into account some gene or biochemical changes in the brain that might differ that might even lie dormant and transform the thinking pattern that might evolve from Theist--to Agnostic--to Atheist and also in the reverse direction from Theist--to Agnostic --to Atheist.

psychology also must be given a deep consideration cos some past bitter or pleasant experiences in life might activate this so called bio chemical changes which could have been lying dormant all these years.
Just my unproven thoughts.

Who knows? May be we should think of conducting some experiments on this and we might actually understand why some reject the God concept and grow up to be Atheist or some readily accept the God concept and become Theist and we can put all this differences of Theist Vs Atheist aside.

 

[happyhindu]

I dont feel the comparison is harsh(unless you have an impression that being homosexual is abnormal).The comparison is more on lines of Majority Minority basis.

There is medical evidence that Homosexuals are some what neurologically variant from the average Heterosexual.

For all I know an Atheist and a Theist might differ Neurologically/Biochemically at a cerebral level.
We have to take into account some gene or biochemical changes in the brain that might differ that might even lie dormant and transform the thinking pattern that might evolve from Theist--to Agnostic--to Atheist and also in the reverse direction from Theist--to Agnostic --to Atheist.

psychology also must be given a deep consideration cos some past bitter or pleasant experiences in life might activate this so called bio chemical changes which could have been lying dormant all these years.
Just my unproven thoughts.

Who knows? May be we should think of conducting some experiments on this and we might actually understand why some reject the God concept and grow up to be Atheist or some readily accept the God concept and become Theist and we can put all this differences of Theist Vs Atheist aside.

Very interesting Renu. The idea of a gene predisposing humans for theism or atheism maybe sorta appealing for some, i suppose. We differ from apes in around 1 percent of dna. So i suppose such a gene (if any) lies in this 1 percent of dna

Buddhism, Jainism, confucianism, even Shintoism and Taoism, do not depend on the principle of a creator-god. I feel the concepts of these faiths arose from thinkers and philosphers who examined things from a naturalist pov. Hope the practitioners of these religions are not viewed as those with a genetic defect !!

To me, agnosticism, theism and atheism are just experiences of a soul along its journey. I beleive unless a soul experiences all forms, varieites, and hues of situations/events/experiences, it cannot move towards release.

For all we know, the soul of Richard Dawkins may have been that of Kulothunga Chola in a previous birth (so fanatical in his faith that he persecuted vaishnavas). Generally those involved in a particular specific aspect of life, very deeply in one birth, turn out to be attracted to the same thing, in an other (random) birth. So Kulothunga Chola and Richard Dawkins both turn out to be involved in religion.

Then again, the brain is designed to be optimistic, because that possibly gives humans an evolutionary edge in enhancing their survival prospects. I often wonder about this fight for good against evil in various religious scriptures (bible, quran, puranas/itihasas, etc).

After exploring the concept of evil in various religions, i realise that any concept which helps survival for one group is seen as 'good' (with the other ofcourse dubbed 'evil', 'selfish', 'greedy', etc). Which is why you have pagans with trishuls dubbed 'evil' over which christianity/islam is 'good'.

I suppose every 'religion' absorbs motifs of older faiths, which help that 'religion' to survive with some fables / stories, and end up dubbing those who prevent the 'religion' from flourishing as 'evil'.

I have no idea if there is anything called 'good' or 'evil' per se. Its all relative.

Then there are some people, who are rather content in accepting things in life as they occur, and do not sense a void in their neural networks, no matter what happens. Such people, i feel are in a state of moksham in a way. But to get to that stage is tuf, i suppose...

Then again, there are extremely rare souls like that of Namalvar, immersed in the divine from birth.

So, Renu, what i feel (so far) is there are various states of consciousness, each with its own experience (own loka), and each individual during his/her lifetime may pass thru several states of consciouness. I would not dub anything 'good or 'bad'...

If genes do determine our emotional states, then possibly we may have a situation, where an experiment should be able to track every transmigrating soul from a genetic pool with all its expereinces well tabulated, in order to infer something from it. We should also be able to track which event was borne out of free will and which did not come out of free will from any of the previous births.

But Renu, instead of all this, i simply beleive in karma. And each individual's journey as it is. For whatever it is, 'good' or 'bad'.

Regards.