How should we overcome our desires?

[Raghy]

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Renuka,

It is possible to view “mind” as both the machinery of perception we have been talking about and the consciousness which perceives the perception, the consciousness that is unconditioned and permanent–in other words, the spirit, the eternal Self.

That's why I believe our thoughts and desires are kind of follow a 'default' value. In fact, if we can work out our 'default', we can pretty much predict exactly what we would be thinking which would govern our desire and eventually our actions.

Thanks for that article. Yes, mind is very powerful indeed. I already mentioned in my previous message, I have actually witnessed the power of my own mind. I remember one interview.... before even going to the interview, I said to my wife " this job is mine! they might as well offered me this job without interview!"... well, I was told I beat my competitors by miles ( but I was the least qualified amoung the short-listed candidates). That was just my mind. I can think of few other occassions too.

Hey not bad yaar...So if I become a Buddha you become my follower ok!!LOL

That is perfectly okay with me. I know my strength is not in philosophy. I suspect you would possibly teach me a thing or two in the subject I think I am strong at anyway!LOL! So, I am more than happy to be the follower in the subject of philosophy!

Cheers!

 

[K Bhaskaran]

Sri.Raghy

The problem you have posed is of very high magnitude. There is no simple solution to avoid desires. Most of the religions have dealt with this issue as the only solution to the ills of man. Our Upanishads say that the false notion of duality is the cause for getting caught up in the cycle of birth and death. To avoid this peril, the sense of duality which we have built up over several births has to be dispensed with. This wrong idea of duality is the root cause of not only desire but also other evils like attachment, anger etc. Except engaging ourselves in serious pursuit of Self Realisation that all else except the single Supreme Brahman are illusory and self-imagined by ourselves there is no short-cut solution to this. Religious and spiritual leaders like Adi Sankara, Bhagawan Ramana advocate experiencing this oneness by Vichara and killing this mind through Samadhi etc. as the only solution. This is possible only for Sanyasis. We householders may try to seriously implement in our daily life the concept of Doing our duties with sincere efforts but not developing attachment/craving for positive results. The temporary nature of all pleasures we enjoy in this life most of which are followed by pain only should be again and again contemplated to develop Viveka and Vairagya.

The suggestion of fulfilling a desire to heart's content to get rid of it will be only counter-productive. The sense pleasures will never allow us to leave them but drag us more towards them as we see what havoc addiction to bad habits brings to one's life. In fact, it is this kind of addiction to desire, anger etc. which we have built up over several births called vasanas is the hindrance to avoid them even if we are now fully convinced that they are bad for us.

 

[murari1970]

Dear sri raghy,

What do you mean as desire? Desire for money, fame, wealth, power....? According to me, if we can pursue our desires and achieve without injurious to others (as well as to oneself since desire for alcohol, smoking is injurious to oneself), no wrong in pursuing them. This need not be linked with spirituality, I think.

Today even running the die-hard religious establishments need money. The difference is they desire money, but get it in a passive way - through donations from business people.

So I don't think we need to worry more about desires, if it is a necessary for leading a good life here.

Regards

 

[Iyyarooraan]

In this world the desire is motive power. We have no idea of what a post natal child desires. Maybe after a year or two it desires toys, sweets and desires to act like its elders. It is after this the instinctual desire gives place to possessive and ambition-driven desires. Mostly people receive the common desires in life less than expected, just as expected or more than expected as they merit, at marriage. Saints get enlightenment or realisation maybe early and they discord the desires. For a married man a union with a woman will bring out issues which will have to be taken care of. If he shirks saying I have no more desires, maybe he would be committing sins. But the desires after these concern the issues and will have to be taken care of till the issues can take care of themselves. Of course, the spouse has to be taken care of. If you have well (reasonably well, not extraordinarily well) provided for the issues and the wife too, you can proceed on vanaprastam shedding all worldy desires.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Bhaskaran, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #52. I was always told "think outside the box". So, when I could think, (which was not very often though!) I thought about it; why I should I think outside the box and go back to the box? So, I kicked the box into nothing. There is no box anywhere around me. To think Samadhi is possible by only "Sanyasis" and not by "samsaris" is not acceptable to me. I think a Samsari stands a much better chance to attain Samadhi than a Sanyasi. A Samsari makes so many sacrifices everyday to make others happy; goes through so many discomforts to keep others comfortable; goes through so many hardships to make others life happy. These others may be his wife, children, kith, kin, dear and near. But still he does all these for someone else.

A samsari's mind is already developed for the attainment of Samadhi.

Self realisation is a gradual, slow process. It is not instantaneous. Such process may be better developed through samsaram, not by sanyasam because a samsari has much better chances of sacrifices. One may argue the Sanyasi sacrificed all the wordly pleasures; I would disagree. a sanyasi did not enjoy a family life, so there was nothing to sacrifice. On the other hand, if that sanyasi left a family, then it is not a sacrifice but leaving a family in hardship. This is a different subject and I am not going into this now.

Sense pleasure need not drag us more into it. That's where the self control comes in. We may even get dragged, but still we can get out early enough. Besides, what is wrong and what is right is subjective, anyway. I don't really think sense pleasure would drag us away from self realisation. I don't know why sense control is prescribed on the road to self realisation. We don't have to get distracted all the time. If we do get distracted, what is the harm in it? We don't really have a time-table for self-realisation. If someone tells me he/she requires to be self realised in a specific period of time, I will kind of watch him/her with interest.

Self-realisation is a fun process. I can't even think of it in anyother way. Addiction, anger, disappointment, rejection, depression, happiness... everything is a part of that long journey. Can anyone assure me a Sanyasi doesn't go through these emotions? We are not statues not to have emotions. We are just human beings. My policy is, let's enjoy life on the way to self-realisation. Let's enjoy the process!

I know, most persons can't agree with this; can't even contemplate this. But this is life for me!

Cheers!

 

[vijay_sivasubramanian]

Dear members,

Warm hello to everyone of you. This is my first post here, though I have been following the various threads for sometime.

This particular thread, that of "How should we overcome our desires" has been of great interest to me. Though there have views expressed on this thread that desires should be fulfilled (how many times, 5 or 10 or 100 or more??) to ultimately overcome them, I do not subscribe to it. Atleast not desires that do not conform with our moral and ethical codes. Now, who defines these? I consider them the handed down guidelines that are necessary for a peaceful co-existence with family, friends and society in general.

For a sadhaka, control of mind is very essential. This has been accepted by almost every great seer, philosopher irrespective of the stream of religion or philosophy they follow. Mind simply cannot be ruled by the sense organs; in that case, the mind becomes another sense organ.

For me, desires that are a direct violation of our set moral or ethical code of conduct are a big NO. IMHO, a married man visiting a strip joint is one such.

The exact question was posted to Bhagvan Ramana and his answer was published in "Be As You Are" page 256.

I'm posting the exact question and answer here for the benefit of the members --

Q: What is the best way of dealing with desires and vasanas with a view to getting rid of them - satisfying them or suppressing them?
A: If a desire can be got rid of by satisfying it, there will be no harm in satisfying such a desire. But desires generally are not eradicated by satisfaction. Trying to root them out that way is like trying to quench a fire by pouring inflammable spirits on it. At the same time, the proper remedy is not forcible suppression, since such repression is bound to react sooner or later into a forceful surging up of desires with undesirable consequences. The proper way to get rid of a desire is to find out `Who gets the desire? What is its source?' When this is found, the desire is rooted out and it will never again emerge or grow. Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink, sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy. They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind.

 

[renuka]

For me, desires that are a direct violation of our set moral or ethical code of conduct are a big NO. IMHO, a married man visiting a strip joint is one such.

Technically even an unmarried person should not be there too.
But you see married man save lots of money these days so they visit online sites.

But sometimes married men might still need to visit a strip joint under the following conditions:

1)Married Paramedic Males might need to enter a strip joint when there is a medical emergency.

2)Married Fire Fighters might need to enter a strip joint when there is a fire.

3)Married Male Politician might need to enter a strip joint to ask the employees there to vote for him in the up coming elections.


Just joking....I liked your post.Keep up good work.
Welcome to Forum.

 

[renuka]

Sri. Bhaskaran, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #52. I was always told "think outside the box". So, when I could think, (which was not very often though!) I thought about it; why I should I think outside the box and go back to the box? So, I kicked the box into nothing. There is no box anywhere around me. To think Samadhi is possible by only "Sanyasis" and not by "samsaris" is not acceptable to me. I think a Samsari stands a much better chance to attain Samadhi than a Sanyasi. A Samsari makes so many sacrifices everyday to make others happy; goes through so many discomforts to keep others comfortable; goes through so many hardships to make others life happy. These others may be his wife, children, kith, kin, dear and near. But still he does all these for someone else.

A samsari's mind is already developed for the attainment of Samadhi.

Self realisation is a gradual, slow process. It is not instantaneous. Such process may be better developed through samsaram, not by sanyasam because a samsari has much better chances of sacrifices. One may argue the Sanyasi sacrificed all the wordly pleasures; I would disagree. a sanyasi did not enjoy a family life, so there was nothing to sacrifice. On the other hand, if that sanyasi left a family, then it is not a sacrifice but leaving a family in hardship. This is a different subject and I am not going into this now.

Sense pleasure need not drag us more into it. That's where the self control comes in. We may even get dragged, but still we can get out early enough. Besides, what is wrong and what is right is subjective, anyway. I don't really think sense pleasure would drag us away from self realisation. I don't know why sense control is prescribed on the road to self realisation. We don't have to get distracted all the time. If we do get distracted, what is the harm in it? We don't really have a time-table for self-realisation. If someone tells me he/she requires to be self realised in a specific period of time, I will kind of watch him/her with interest.

Self-realisation is a fun process. I can't even think of it in anyother way. Addiction, anger, disappointment, rejection, depression, happiness... everything is a part of that long journey. Can anyone assure me a Sanyasi doesn't go through these emotions? We are not statues not to have emotions. We are just human beings. My policy is, let's enjoy life on the way to self-realisation. Let's enjoy the process!

I know, most persons can't agree with this; can't even contemplate this. But this is life for me!

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

But there surely comes a point in our lives that we are sort of feeling "what am I doing here"

Even for the most desire ridden person a day will come that everything seems repetitive and saturated.

When the feeling of saturation comes we start to feel that there is much more to life than just sense gratification.

So those who give up sense gratification in the true sense never look back.
It might not be an easy journey but a determined person never looks back and even picks himself up when he falls and moves on.

As I said earlier..I was non veg till the age of 19.
Then I gave up eating non veg at the age of 19 and never looked back.
Many people have asked me.."didn't you feel tempted to eat non veg all these years?"

My answer was "No..not even once I felt tempted..cos I felt I just discarded the desire for Non Veg like how we slough off dead cells in our body.
Do we go back looking for dead cells that are discarded from our body?"

Discarding is not the same as suppression.
Discarding is when we have no more seeds to sprout but suppression still has seeds that might sprout when the environment is conducive.

So true Sanyasis have discarded all there is to discard and they desire no more.
Actually it is hard to compare ourselves with True Sanyasis.

We are still looking thorough the lenses of desire where else they have direct perception not through the pathway of senses.

 

[vijay_sivasubramanian]

Discarding is not the same as suppression.
Discarding is when we have no more seeds to sprout but suppression still has seeds that might sprout when the environment is conducive.

So true Sanyasis have discarded all there is to discard and they desire no more.
Actually it is hard to compare ourselves with True Sanyasis.

We are still looking thorough the lenses of desire where else they have direct perception not through the pathway of senses.

+1 to that. Discarding and supression are not the same.
I was told by someone that when such desires spring up, supress it with a mental knot ("mudichu pottu thalli vei"). The power of the desire diminishes over time and finally "discarded". The lesser the desire, the purer the mind is and more ready for the inward attention.

From a jnani's perspective, I cannot even imagine how their mind (if it exists) works.

And thanks Renuka, for the welcome.

Vijay

 

[renuka]

+1 to that. Discarding and supression are not the same.
I was told by someone that when such desires spring up, supress it with a mental knot ("mudichu pottu thalli vei"). The power of the desire diminishes over time and finally "discarded". The lesser the desire, the purer the mind is and more ready for the inward attention.

From a jnani's perspective, I cannot even imagine how their mind (if it exists) works.

And thanks Renuka, for the welcome.

Vijay

Dear Vijay,

Severe suppression is not fully advocated.

Ok I will chose a simple example...ladies know this well.

During pregnancy I desired to eat a particular brand of Instant Noodles but I somehow "fought" with the desire by telling myself that Instant Noodles contain lots of Monosodium Glutamate which is not good for health.

So I told myself.."think of the baby and do not think of yourself"
The desire went away.

So if we actually have any strong desire that might not be beneficial to spiritual growth..it is better to reason out and take the time to write out the pros and cons and then make the best decision.

If we can convince ourselves that an act would be bad..our mind will surely listen to our inner voice.

Our Inner Voice should be firm and once decision has been made there should be no looking back..

Our Inner Voice should be like Actor Vijay's Punch Dialogue:

Naan oru thadava mudivu pannita yen paecha naanae kaeka maaten

 

[Dr.S.Ramanathan]

Dear Dr. Renuka, Excellent quote from Vijai's Punch dialogue.
Talking about desire and suppression, I think a more practical path could be Desire--nonattachment--detachment--Discard. In such a case, there would be no necessity for Suppression. This comes from Sravanam, then Mananam and then Nidhidhyasanam.
Regards,
Ramanathan.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Vijay Sivasubramanian, Greetings.

This particular thread, that of "How should we overcome our desires" has been of great interest to me. Though there have views expressed on this thread that desires should be fulfilled (how many times, 5 or 10 or 100 or more??) to ultimately overcome them, I do not subscribe to it. Atleast not desires that do not conform with our moral and ethical codes. Now, who defines these? I consider them the handed down guidelines that are necessary for a peaceful co-existence with family, friends and society in general.

Sir, you are welcome not to subscribe with my views. But why do you have to add the high-lighted portion? Is it added to make it sarcastic? When you don't subscribe to an idea, why should you make fun of that idea by this kind of sarcastic remark? What do you know about the person who is prescribing such outlandish idea? When you have no idea, kindly don't indulge in sarcasm, please. This man may have sense control you may only dream about. Don't forget such possibilities.

For me, desires that are a direct violation of our set moral or ethical code of conduct are a big NO. IMHO, a married man visiting a strip joint is one such.

Your opinion doesn't count. You are not married to this man, are you? This man says he spoke to his wife over the phone from the strip joint; it is for his wife to set the rule where he can go and where he can't go. His wife is perfectly fine with him knowing very well this man has much better sense control than falling for some random girl in a strip joint. That kind of comfortable relationship between a man and his wife may be way over your head; but, it is daily occurance for this man and his wife. together they set the rules which control them. Thay don't care about any random person's opinion.

Q: What is the best way of dealing with desires and vasanas with a view to getting rid of them - satisfying them or suppressing them?
A: If a desire can be got rid of by satisfying it, there will be no harm in satisfying such a desire.

Did you read the first sentence from Ramana Maharishi? What did I say differently? Following sentences in that reply may not apply to this man; have you thought about that possibility?

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Raghy,

But there surely comes a point in our lives that we are sort of feeling "what am I doing here"

Even for the most desire ridden person a day will come that everything seems repetitive and saturated.

When the feeling of saturation comes we start to feel that there is much more to life than just sense gratification.

So those who give up sense gratification in the true sense never look back.
It might not be an easy journey but a determined person never looks back and even picks himself up when he falls and moves on.

As I said earlier..I was non veg till the age of 19.
Then I gave up eating non veg at the age of 19 and never looked back.
Many people have asked me.."didn't you feel tempted to eat non veg all these years?"

My answer was "No..not even once I felt tempted..cos I felt I just discarded the desire for Non Veg like how we slough off dead cells in our body.
Do we go back looking for dead cells that are discarded from our body?"

Discarding is not the same as suppression.
Discarding is when we have no more seeds to sprout but suppression still has seeds that might sprout when the environment is conducive.

So true Sanyasis have discarded all there is to discard and they desire no more.
Actually it is hard to compare ourselves with True Sanyasis.

We are still looking thorough the lenses of desire where else they have direct perception not through the pathway of senses.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

It looks like everyone posted in this thread except me knows exactly what to do to overcome desires and exacctly how to acheive self-realisation.

Chances all these great persons may not have next janma at all. But I think, this earth should be populated. I am absolutely happy to take many more janmas again and again in this earth.

I have no desire to get any self-realisation. I love this life on thisd earth. Why not? For me, This is sorgam......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-G04tKe-RQ

I thank you and all the others who took part in this thread. You tried your level best to show me the way that you are convinced is right. But I am not taking any of those. I am happy to continue the way I live.

Cheers!

 

[shakuntala]

Shouldn't we have desires? Why not? We can have desires which are not harmful or inconvenience to others and gives us pleasure and motivation to do something....what is the problem. A scientist has a desire and ambition (sometimes the line may be thin between the two)....isn't it a good thing. A doctor, a scientist or a lay person who wants to do something in life...they can do so.

When we are doing something we do get attached, expect results, definitely. If a student is studying for exams or an engineer is doing a project or a doctor is treating a patient...do they not expect good results. Of course if they do not get the results they expect they would be disappointed...but that is not the end of the world. They would try again and change their line of working over the problem.

I hope the moderator would make this comment visible....sometimes I get a message that after the moderator approves then only it would be visible. It may be in the rule book...I am a member in some other forums also but no where I got that type of message. I am not abusing anyone or writing obscene language...hope so.

Shakuntala

 

[Raji Ram]

..............
I hope the moderator would make this comment visible....sometimes I get a message that after the moderator approves then only it would be visible. It may be in the rule book...I am a member in some other forums also but no where I got that type of message. I am not abusing anyone or writing obscene language...hope so. .........

There is a random check always! Even veterans get such messages, sometimes. I don't find anything wrong in that!

If there is NO abusive language, the post will be definitely approved by the moderator. No need to worry!
And, the members have the option of reporting abuse! :ranger:

 

[Raji Ram]

......... I am happy to continue the way I live. ...

Dear Raghy Sir,

Are you still not aware that we all know this: "unga vazhi, thaneeeeee vazhi!' :high5:

 

[guruvayurappan]

post 30&31#
dear raghy !
very nice and thought provoking. personally telling i am not as frank like you to discuss things with my wife and she will also will not tolerate me for such things.i am telling what elders told us and i find your words come from your experience .even viewing erotic scene in TV is embracing and i do not subscribe for visiting strip joint.i neither strong believer or non believer .i am following things without knowing what is desire ,kama or krotha.not to hurt other's feeling is my brought up.
i could not even understand what you wnat to convey with that girl with glove
you post makes every body to think
cheers
guruvayurappan

 

[Raji Ram]

ஒரு அழகிய குறள் நினைவுக்கு வருகின்றது!

'பற்றுக பற்றற்றான் பற்றினை அப்பற்றைப்
பற்றுக பற்று விடற்கு.'

பற்றுக - பற்றிக்கொள்க

பற்றற்றான் - ஆசை இல்லாத இறைவன்

பற்றினை - பாதத்தை

அப்பற்றை - அப்பாதத்தை

பற்றுக - பற்றிக்கொள்க

பற்று விடற்கு - ஆசையை விடுவதற்கு.

எதன் மீதும் அதீத ஆசை கூடாது. அதீத ஆசையை வெல்லும் எளிய வழி, வள்ளுவர் காட்டும் வழியே! eace:

 

[kk4646]

ஒரு அழகிய குறள் நினைவுக்கு வருகின்றது!

'பற்றுக பற்றற்றான் பற்றினை அப்பற்றைப்
பற்றுக பற்று விடற்கு.'

பற்றுக - பற்றிக்கொள்க

பற்றற்றான் - ஆசை இல்லாத இறைவன்

பற்றினை - பாதத்தை

அப்பற்றை - அப்பாதத்தை

பற்றுக - பற்றிக்கொள்க

பற்று விடற்கு - ஆசையை விடுவதற்கு.

எதன் மீதும் அதீத ஆசை கூடாது. அதீத ஆசையை வெல்லும் எளிய வழி, வள்ளுவர் காட்டும் வழியே! eace:

"எதன் மீதும் அதீத ஆசை கூடாது"

'அதீதம்' என்பதின் அளவுகோல் எது...?


யார் முடிவு செய்வது...?

tvk

 

[Iyyarooraan]

அளவுக்கு மீறினால் அமிர்தமும் விஷம். ஒரு குடம் பாலுக்கு ஒரு துளி விஷம் போதும்.

 

[Raji Ram]

[/b][/b]'அதீதம்' என்பதின் அளவுகோல் எது...?

யார் முடிவு செய்வது...?

மிகச் சரியான கேள்வி! :clap2:

ஒருவரின் உணவு மற்றொருவரின் விஷம் என்பதுபோல, ஒருவரின் அதீதம்
இன்னொருவரின் குறைவாகவும் இருக்கலாம்! அவரவர் முடிவுதான் அது! :decision:

 

[Raji Ram]

அளவுக்கு மீறினால் அமிர்தமும் விஷம்.........

அந்த அளவை அறிவதுதான் நிஜமான அறிவோ? :thumb:

 

[Athreyan]

மிகச் சரியான கேள்வி! :clap2:

ஒருவரின் உணவு மற்றொருவரின் விஷம் என்பதுபோல, ஒருவரின் அதீதம்
இன்னொருவரின் குறைவாகவும் இருக்கலாம்! அவரவர் முடிவுதான் அது! :decision:

If only one person is involved, that "Excess" can be as low as possible; if two or more persons are involved, " Excess" is decided by all the persons involved. For example, if I decide to celeberate Deepavali in a very simple way, then for me personally, it is acceptable. But I should not force my decision on my wife. If she likes to celeberate Deepavali in her own way, then even though it may seem "excess" by my standard, it is not really "Excess". It is the individual decision even in a company.

Thanks.

 

[Athreyan]

post 30&31#
dear raghy !
very nice and thought provoking. personally telling i am not as frank like you to discuss things with my wife and she will also will not tolerate me for such things.i am telling what elders told us and i find your words come from your experience .even viewing erotic scene in TV is embracing and i do not subscribe for visiting strip joint.i neither strong believer or non believer .i am following things without knowing what is desire ,kama or krotha.not to hurt other's feeling is my brought up.
i could not even understand what you wnat to convey with that girl with glove
you post makes every body to think
cheers
guruvayurappan

Dear Guruvayurappan Sir,

I could not understand post #31. I think in post #30 that girl in gloves is desire. Raghy has given a picture to desire. He/she also says that desire beat Raghy in the very first round. That girl is wearing gloves to denote she was boxing or karate fighting. ( May not be karate; her shoes are not appropriate). I have not read other messages yet.

Thanks.

 

[Athreyan]

Shouldn't we have desires? Why not? We can have desires which are not harmful or inconvenience to others and gives us pleasure and motivation to do something....what is the problem. A scientist has a desire and ambition (sometimes the line may be thin between the two)....isn't it a good thing. A doctor, a scientist or a lay person who wants to do something in life...they can do so.

Shakuntala,

It is very difficult to gauge the "inconvenience to others". If we are very close to someone, we tend to take certain advantages due to the closeness although it is wrong. Sometimes our own ego takes over our actions. Sometimes we actually think, " we will stop now. it is close enough" but by that time the other person may be offended. I remember when I was young, I lost one girl friend for a very silly reason. Same reason, " inconvenience to her". I regretted that incident for a long time. But it was broken, could not be fixed.

Otherwise, we all have only simple desires. what is there to overcome such simple desires? But the messages in this thread looks like very philosophical.

Thanks.