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How to arrest the slide in TB numbers

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How to arrest the slide in TB numbers
Click to expand...

My thoughts on the Original Topic :



According to me post Independance and especially post Liberalization TBs have move out from their villages to small towns to big towns to Cities within India and also moved and settled abroad and this has resulted in a big difference in their networth , lifestyle ,outlook and priorities in life and it is very difficult to consider them as a homogeneous group ( either in economics or in their cultural practices or in their lifestyle ) and find a universal solution to their problems whatever may it be . Within my own family I can see this big diversity and 30 - 40 years back we were all on the same boat but now each person is in a different planet .But I can divide TBs in 3 categories :

1) Name sake TBs :
Many of them are just namesake TBs i.e one TB married to another TB and they themselves do not know what it means to be a TB except for wearing a Sacred Thread ( many times it will be missing and just for an occassion they will wear it ) and visiting a temple occassionally , celebrating some festivals , attending some spiritual talks here and there , attending music concerts and at the most being a Vegetarian ( while their children will be eating non veg with their friends outside ) .This is the most confused lot and like Trisankus and do not know whether to move with the changes taking place in the world or go back to the traditional way .They are always confused .
2) Totally changed TBs :
This group never wears a poonal nor do anything a TB does even for name sake i.e visit a temple , celebrate festivals , be vegetarian etc . They do not like to be called as a TB and want to dissolve their TB identity and they choose a lifestyle that will never even remotely resonate with any TB .Here again they may belong to divese economic / social strata and while they may be happy with a similar totally changed TB but will be careful in keeping him away if he does not belong to their own social , economic strata .This group cares a damn for either preserving the TB Culture or TB lifestyle and hence no point in bothering about them as they care a damn for what we discuss here .Note : I do not mean to say they are bad people or people with vices .I only say that they do not like the TB way of life .They may be working for many non profit organizations and may be doing lot of other social and productive activities etc .

3) Hardcore TBs :
This group knows what it means to be a TB and they strictly follow the tradition and mostly people in this group will be closely associated with either the Kanchi , Sringeri Mutts or other Madhva or Vaishnava Mutts . Such people no doubt also moved out of their villages and also went abroad but they followed the TB life wherever they went and never compromized much .They have no doubt or confusion with regard to following the TB lifestyle and inculcating the same in their children .They are a closed group and very serious about what they are doing . I think there is a pure TB forum also online .I have seen many such groups in Chennai and my relatives abroad say even abroad they remain a closed group and seriously follow the TB culture and practices . Such people seek no advice from others apart from their respective mutt acharyas and hence whatever we discuss here is of no use to them also .

I have no statistics as to how many people will belong to to Group-1 , Group-2 or Group-3 but sure that Group-1 will always lead the pack .For people belonging to Group 2 , Group 3 no advice is needed as they are clear about their respective paths and the problem catgeory is the first category i.e the Trisanku variety and they are the one confused and do not know what to do .They have only 2 choices to i.e Move to Group 2 or Group 3 and take the plus and minus of such a lifestyle as at least people in Group 2 ,3 are clear in what they are doing unlike the Trishanku variety . I leave it to each individual to decide for himself /herself what to do as this cannot be either organized or forced on the people .
 
IMHO opinion people cannot be categorised. They are what they are. They adopt stances depending on the needs of the time, compulsions, oppurtunities, surrounding

community, geographical location and economic imperatives.There can be no slotting and labelling of people. Withn the same nuclear family, there can be different

orientations- some ritualistic,different food preferances, worship style, dress options. No one can say what they say or do constitute true brahmin culture and others are

impure brahmins fit for jathi brashtam.So everyone chooses his own path. Only that might be common is that they were born brahmins and nothing more.
 
krish44 said:
What will happen to tamil brahmins if vaagmiji leaves?
Click to expand...
You are very innocent at times, Krish Sir!

Do you know that a strong elephant became a playful monkey in our forum? :spy:

Our forum is intoxication and seldom members actually leave!!
 
The three categories written by Krishna are correct.

Each one thinks the way he lives is ONLY perfect. :thumb:

So....... how do we arrest the slide in TB numbers?
 
mkrishna100 said:
I have no statistics as to how many people will belong to to Group-1 , Group-2 or Group-3 but sure that Group-1 will always lead the pack .For people belonging to Group 2 , Group 3 no advice is needed as they are clear about their respective paths and the problem catgeory is the first category i.e the Trisanku variety and they are the one confused and do not know what to do .They have only 2 choices to i.e Move to Group 2 or Group 3 and take the plus and minus of such a lifestyle as at least people in Group 2 ,3 are clear in what they are doing unlike the Trishanku variety . I leave it to each individual to decide for himself /herself what to do as this cannot be either organized or forced on the people .
Click to expand...


Even though I do not subscribe to the idea of classifying humans into multiple category based on life style preferences but I fail to see why Group 1 is a problem in your opinion.

According to you..Group 1 is :

1) Name sake TBs :
Many of them are just namesake TBs i.e one TB married to another TB and they themselves do not know what it means to be a TB except for wearing a Sacred Thread ( many times it will be missing and just for an occassion they will wear it ) and visiting a temple occassionally , celebrating some festivals , attending some spiritual talks here and there , attending music concerts and at the most being a Vegetarian ( while their children will be eating non veg with their friends outside ) .This is the most confused lot and like Trisankus and do not know whether to move with the changes taking place in the world or go back to the traditional way .They are always confused
Click to expand...

I dont find anything wrong with Group 1.They are adhering to some aspects of TB culture.
At least practicing some form of Dharma without resorting to Adharmic elements would go a long way to preserve values.

There is no endeavor that is diminutive when it comes to practicing good values/Dharma..it does help safe from calamities of the mind,body and atma eventually.

After all doesnt the Geeta say:

nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti
pratyavāyo na vidyate
svalpam apy asya dharmasya
trāyate mahato bhayāt

In devotional service there is no loss or diminution, and even a small service rendered in devotional life is sufficient to save one from the greatest danger
Click to expand...
 
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There is a group PBO - people of brahmin origin - which is increasing in number - where do you place them - looks they are not considered here - in my street of around 40 house only 2 brahmin household ( mine included) has one non- brahmin d in law and the others have 4 brahmin d in Is ! Now totally 4 TBs and about 10 children of Brahmin origin
 
Raji Ram said:
You are very innocent at times, Krish Sir!

Do you know that a strong elephant became a playful monkey in our forum? :spy:

Our forum is intoxication and seldom members actually leave!!
Click to expand...

Well said, Raji Ram ji, some 40 years ago our TB community used to get addicted to Kalki, Anandavikatan & Kumudam to kill their spare time. Now they are equipped with quality Laptops with TB forum on board!! ha ha..
 
I too would like to say something before closure of this thread is considered. It may not be specific to any point or posts but is a random (and probably meandering) opinion based on my observations and (little) experience.

Post of sarcasm about brahmins and culture (made by me earlier) are to really know what we are talking about.

Though there seems to be some consensus about the identity of a brahmin (by birth), people do not want to say it aloud. They do not want to be known as casteist or racist. That is my first grudge. And probably objection. Objection since 99% of the people who are birth based brahmins will not qualify the rigorous test of a "pure" brahmin. This is from my limited experience and observation. I will state a few to substantiate my point:

1) Brahmins are seekers of knowledge and not wealth - (yadrushtaya laaba santushtaha) does not seem to fit in for we find conflicting and contradicting examples everywhere. I see priests greedy for money, vadhyars charging exhorbitant amounts, pious and ultra-orthodox brahmins being money-minded etc. I am not saying that they shouldnt ever worry about money, but the preoccupation with money whilst displaying the tag of belonging to a knowledge seeker group reeks of hypocrisy.

2) Following religious ways: how many shave their head to a kudumi (or a vilayattu kudumi) during their upanayanam. How many keep kudumis? Alright, then was an era of brahmin antagonism where kudumis were cut. What about now? Most vadhyars do not like the appala kudumi (or its several variations). And the others in employment or business - they care two hoots about the kudumi. How many perform pratah sandhya in a river bank. Argyam to surya should be with two hands. 99% do it with the panchaatra uddarani and with one palm. My intention is not to harp on little things, but these little things are conveniently ignored by most who call themselves brahmins. Again, for the sake of convenience, the timing of maadhyaanhika gayathri has shifted ahead by several hours. We justify by saying that "at least we are attempting to follow it". How many brahmins study vedas and upanishads regularly? In fact it is supposed to be their main job; in kanchi acharya's book, I can vaguely recollect that one of the dharmashastras allow brahmins to do the job of vaishyas and kshatriyas in adverse conditions. Ok, so do we find the rich brahmins inculcating the religious code in their wards since their adverse time is over? A big NO. A wife is supposed to be treated like a sakhi after the seventh step. How many "pure" brahmins of yore can claim to do that? Please note that I am not talking about exceptions here but the norm. Is this not hypocrisy?

3) Whether one likes it or not, being a brahmin mandates ritual purity. I have lived and grown up with it for so long. Madi, theetu, echil and patthu (the last one is often dropped even in religious households now) are integral parts of a brahmin household. If one were to follow all this, he cannot work in the contemporary work culture. My grand parents used to hang madi clothes from the top (in agraharam houses) where no one would be able to touch it. This too on a daily basis. Later this softened only to days when special rituals are required. Now this ritual purity mandates exclusivity; a true and pure brahmin can never mingle with the current society. In other words, they would have to live as a recluse (the community, I mean). Whether or not that is accepted is a different matter. We do not do that. Is this not hypocrisy?

4) There are too many "dos an donts" in a brahmin household - since the entire life is somewhat robotic, there is no concept of free will. Either the vadhyar or the acharya of the concerned mutt can only arbitrate on delicate matters. It is certainly bound to create an atmosphere of frustration and bondage. When something is to their advantage, "pure" brahmins do not hesitate to bend the rules a little. Like I said earlier, convenience and benefit decides the swaying %. Is this not hypocrisy?

5) Lastly, with all the rituals and ceremonies, where are we going? Where is saayujyam? Where is kailayam? Is it in some distant land, or in our minds? The preoccupation and obsession with rituals and breed purity has infested our minds and the purpose, if any, has been almost lost. No practicing brahmin has ever contemplated and attained a "samadarshinah" stage ever. Perhaps, after years take their toll on physique and desires, some realize the futility of what they have gone through and soften. But the majority still have the same weaknesses as they had in day 1. They believe that rituals, purity and mantras alone will carry them to a distant land after their death. If this is not delusion, what is?
 
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but I fail to see why Group 1 is a problem in your opinion.
Click to expand...

When I said problem it is with regard to OP Topic - preserving TB Culture . The members of all 3 groups can be good and decent people otherwise but the OP is concerned with preserving TB Culture . Group-3 is very clear why it wants to retain its TB values and make steps to retain the same in their own way . Group-2 is very clear on its goals and does not mind loosing its TB identity . It is Group-1 that is confused as they want the best of both worlds without paying a price for anything . But beauty of all 3 Groups is being Brahmins by nature they are relatively saatvic and do not involve in adharmic activities ( at least the majority of TBs are like this with some exceptions in all 3 groups )
 
(since the above post was too long, I am continuing here)...

I have grown up in a house of pujas, homams and all the traditions followed to a T. But the experience outside is a teacher in itself. Above all, if one does not question and is not afraid of the answers, freeing oneself from the invisible chains that bind the mind is an arduous task indeed. I have slowly moved out of many, and attempting to come out from a few. Long years of practice and respect towards my parents bind me to my present fate.

The classification of brahmins is nothing but a cruel joke. There are no more "pure" brahmins of yore. Either we are interested in outward symbols and costumes while ignoring the core value, or refuse to accept the core value since symbolism matter the most.

Why cannot we, start a new global community that acts on the principles of "dharma" - acting with the least harm to variables around us"?

My observations are not to hurt the sentiments of anyone but to present a realistic scenario. If there are any factual errors in what I have stated, I would be happy to discuss.

Thanks,
 
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As this thread is winding down, may be it is time to summarize.

1. The focus of the thread was solely on retaining the numerical strength of Tamil Brahmins especially caused due to out of caste/religion marriages. But my opinion is that the the culture is getting fast eroded due to non-adherance to the customs and practices.

The inter-caste/religion marriage ratio was reported to be about 26% as per statistics. But my opinion is that 75% of the TBs do not perform their cultural obligations that too without any compelling reasons.

2. This is the only community I find always hypothesizing whether I am a TB, whether I am a Brahmin or whether I am a Tamilian etc. I have not come across any other community which has serious doubts about itself.

3. Many members repeatedly ask, is there a culture, specifically a TB culture and what is its speciality, whether it is worth preserving etc. But every member who participated in this thread joined this Tamil Brahmins’ Forum basically believing himself/herself to be of TB flock. Their sudden doubts about uniqueness of TB culture is a surprise.

4. Many liberal advisers are asking the parents to refrain from match-making efforts of their wards. But I am yet to come across a SINGLE CASE where the participating member who himself/herself went through marriage arranged by their parents finding fault with selection made by their parents. So why is that suddenly members want the parents to adopt hands off approach in marriage of their children?

5. People who advise right and left to go in for inter-caste/inter religious marriages, at least by the posts made in this thread have given up even the pretences of a Brahmin. So anyone who is seriously considering the suggestions should SUMMARILY REJECT the opinion of such members.

6. I think the need of the hour is to retain and maintain whatever anyone feels to be their cultural identify and consolidate therefrom.

7. Almost all the posts by TBs (in this thread as also in other threads) betray a yearning for Wealth & Recognition by TBs, which was nearly absent about 40 years back.

8. Respect to spiritual heads like MaThAdiphatis, Jeers, vAdhyArs, Bruhaspathis etc. have nose-dived during the last 30-40 years and in this very forum we have witnessed people discussing the supposed salacious details with gay abandon. It is hardly likely that when religious heads are being given such scant respect, scriptures will get special merit.
 
6. I think the need of the hour is to retain and maintain whatever anyone feels to be their cultural identify and consolidate therefrom.
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True and as I have mentioned earlier already one group is seriously following the same within India and Abroad and they have no confusion in the same and know what they are doing . As regards the rest people are free to follow their own path .
 
zebra16 said:
As this thread is winding down, may be it is time to summarize.

1. The focus of the thread was solely on retaining the numerical strength of Tamil Brahmins especially caused due to out of caste/religion marriages. But my opinion is that the the culture is getting fast eroded due to non-adherance to the customs and practices.

The inter-caste/religion marriage ratio was reported to be about 26% as per statistics. But my opinion is that 75% of the TBs do not perform their cultural obligations that too without any compelling reasons.

2. This is the only community I find always hypothesizing whether I am a TB, whether I am a Brahmin or whether I am a Tamilian etc. I have not come across any other community which has serious doubts about itself.

3. Many members repeatedly ask, is there a culture, specifically a TB culture and what is its speciality, whether it is worth preserving etc. But every member who participated in this thread joined this Tamil Brahmins’ Forum basically believing himself/herself to be of TB flock. Their sudden doubts about uniqueness of TB culture is a surprise.

4. Many liberal advisers are asking the parents to refrain from match-making efforts of their wards. But I am yet to come across a SINGLE CASE where the participating member who himself/herself went through marriage arranged by their parents finding fault with selection made by their parents. So why is that suddenly members want the parents to adopt hands off approach in marriage of their children?

5. People who advise right and left to go in for inter-caste/inter religious marriages, at least by the posts made in this thread have given up even the pretences of a Brahmin. So anyone who is seriously considering the suggestions should SUMMARILY REJECT the opinion of such members.

6. I think the need of the hour is to retain and maintain whatever anyone feels to be their cultural identify and consolidate therefrom.

7. Almost all the posts by TBs (in this thread as also in other threads) betray a yearning for Wealth & Recognition by TBs, which was nearly absent about 40 years back.

8. Respect to spiritual heads like MaThAdiphatis, Jeers, vAdhyArs, Bruhaspathis etc. have nose-dived during the last 30-40 years and in this very forum we have witnessed people discussing the supposed salacious details with gay abandon. It is hardly likely that when religious heads are being given such scant respect, scriptures will get special merit.
Click to expand...

A reasonable summary.

Pts 1 to 3.-Very true

Pt 4.-Last generation got married in totally patriarchal where head of family often decided what was good for family.Marriage was between families and not individuals.

Many got married young when they fell in line with what parents decided,Most could not easily get a match outside the community for marriage nor were tempted as the

persons from other communities were not well educated or aspired for brahmin matches.Still there were some odd balls who married outside caste.

Now the protection of joint family is dead. Nuclear family does not make possible or enable getting good matches. Women are well educated and employed with economic

clout.They do not trust judgement of parents any further as they are not in touch with social realities. Since the average age of girls has gone up to 28years , they

would like to directly decide what is good for them. So parents can either be just enablers if requested or lay off as they can cause only damage .

Many in last generation marriages continued in partially dead or totally dead marriages as they could not contemplate life outside marriage.They were also cowards to

admit that their marriage was dead.

Pt5. One cannot say that those who suggest IC/IR are not brahmins. It is an issue of supply and demand. If one does not get what one wants within the community, the

choice is between staying unmarried or taking what one gets even if it is from any other community.This is practical sense.

Pt6.There is nothing to consolidate.

Pt7 In a materialistic society , wealth is a requirement for decent living and recognition all humans want.So nothing wrong or harmful There is no wisdom in staying poor

and live on alms and freebies in old age.

Pt8. All godmen are given the respect they deserve. Many damage their reputation by their own conduct.. Scriptures will continue to get respect irrespective Of bogus

gurus .Vadhyars and temple priests have their own economic problems who require rehabilitation. Brahmin community is not generous in helping them. Other communities

engage and

pay them well.
 
It is fashionable to talk about TB culture in circumspect terms, without specifying any thing. Each has their own identity and want others to follow it without being told exactly what it is. Then lament the decline in numbers etc.
Here is a different perspective of TB culture (west coast of USA).

West Coast Brahmins (non residents)


"Do you know about your family, your clan?" my uncle demanded. Indian? Tamil? I thought, dimly. He continued, "We are Vadama Iyers from Thanjavur district, our ancestors flourished as scholars and priests at court while kings came and went, we have sipped from the Kaveri river for generations". Sure enough, my older relatives proudly carried place names that reflected this geographic clustering, towns like Melakaveri, Sirkazhi and Kumbakonam starting off the multisyllabic chant of their full names.


We have dispersed across the globe since then, but one place has become the new Thanjavur. Within 30 miles of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco lives one of the densest populations of Iyers outside India. The Bay Area Brahmins.


The southern sect, the Silicon Valley Iyers, is mainstream. They are the fierce guardians of Iyer culture, keeping alive the language, music, dance and festivals. Their children attend Tamil school on Saturdays, Gita classes on Sundays, Carnatic music lessons during the week, and plan for their bharatanatyam arangetrams before the all-important junior year of high school. They score perfect 2400s on SATs and 12+ APs on their path to Ivy league programs, and play flute or violin for their school orchestra in their spare time. Some parents are eminent scholars in the fiefdoms of Cisco, IBM, Oracle and Google. Others are fanatics, priests at the temples of Zuckerberg, Jobs and Pincus. And yet, when Avani Avittam arrives, the men troop to Komala Vilas at 5 am, where they can switch into pristine poonal, eat madi samayal, and drink filter kapi, all the while watching a live cricket test match. The women do no less. Navaratri is ushered in with elaborate golus and extravagant kanchipurams. Dressed to kill and armed with visit schedules, yummy maamis jump in and out of Maybachs and Cayennes for rounds of speed socializing. Even sunbird grandparents contribute their bit, flocking to the ICC to argue about presidential primaries or bemoan the rising land prices in Los Altos.


The northern sect, the San Francisco Iyers, is the reform movement. They relocate to places like Burlingame, Mill Valley or Danville. Close enough to grab dosas on Fillmore or shop for appalam and vadam at Coconut Hill, but far enough to escape the intense pace of valley life. They enjoy sushi and dimsum, watch Andaz and MTV India, and send their children to Montessori or Waldorf or any school with a laidback attitude and a good sports program. Their offspring speak halting Tamil with an accent, play football and basketball, and pursue passions in unbrahminly professions like art or social work or architecture. Rumor has it that one actually went away to culinary school, ayyo paavam. Parents have likely used up their spare poonal to truss up the blue lake beans in their organic garden, and they invariably panic when the Livermore priest prompts them for their first-born's nakshatram. Um, rohiniaa, revathiaa? And yet they organize Diwali festivals with zeal, so that the kids can get their annual dose of desi culture. No Thyagaraja music festivals here. If they are lucky, they will hear (or better yet, sing) Kolaveri di on stage. But every other year without fail, they return to their Mambalam mothership to savor the joys of eating kalyaana sapaadu off a banana leaf, and to pay homage at their family temple in some obscure dusty village in Thanjavur district.


I can imagine the future. "Do you know about your family, your clan? Our ancestors were managers and engineers in Silicon Valley as IPOs came and went. Our family has run marathons across bridges, hiked the open space ridges and surfed these beaches for generations. We are Bay Area Iyers."
 
prasad1 said:
It is fashionable to talk about TB culture in circumspect terms, without specifying any thing. Each has their own identity and want others to follow it without being told exactly what it is. Then lament the decline in numbers etc.
Here is a different perspective of TB culture (west coast of USA).

West Coast Brahmins (non residents)


"Do you know about your family, your clan?" my uncle demanded. Indian? Tamil? I thought, dimly. He continued, "We are Vadama Iyers from Thanjavur district, our ancestors flourished as scholars and priests at court while kings came and went, we have sipped from the Kaveri river for generations". Sure enough, my older relatives proudly carried place names that reflected this geographic clustering, towns like Melakaveri, Sirkazhi and Kumbakonam starting off the multisyllabic chant of their full names.


We have dispersed across the globe since then, but one place has become the new Thanjavur. Within 30 miles of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco lives one of the densest populations of Iyers outside India. The Bay Area Brahmins.


The southern sect, the Silicon Valley Iyers, is mainstream. They are the fierce guardians of Iyer culture, keeping alive the language, music, dance and festivals. Their children attend Tamil school on Saturdays, Gita classes on Sundays, Carnatic music lessons during the week, and plan for their bharatanatyam arangetrams before the all-important junior year of high school. They score perfect 2400s on SATs and 12+ APs on their path to Ivy league programs, and play flute or violin for their school orchestra in their spare time. Some parents are eminent scholars in the fiefdoms of Cisco, IBM, Oracle and Google. Others are fanatics, priests at the temples of Zuckerberg, Jobs and Pincus. And yet, when Avani Avittam arrives, the men troop to Komala Vilas at 5 am, where they can switch into pristine poonal, eat madi samayal, and drink filter kapi, all the while watching a live cricket test match. The women do no less. Navaratri is ushered in with elaborate golus and extravagant kanchipurams. Dressed to kill and armed with visit schedules, yummy maamis jump in and out of Maybachs and Cayennes for rounds of speed socializing. Even sunbird grandparents contribute their bit, flocking to the ICC to argue about presidential primaries or bemoan the rising land prices in Los Altos.


The northern sect, the San Francisco Iyers, is the reform movement. They relocate to places like Burlingame, Mill Valley or Danville. Close enough to grab dosas on Fillmore or shop for appalam and vadam at Coconut Hill, but far enough to escape the intense pace of valley life. They enjoy sushi and dimsum, watch Andaz and MTV India, and send their children to Montessori or Waldorf or any school with a laidback attitude and a good sports program. Their offspring speak halting Tamil with an accent, play football and basketball, and pursue passions in unbrahminly professions like art or social work or architecture. Rumor has it that one actually went away to culinary school, ayyo paavam. Parents have likely used up their spare poonal to truss up the blue lake beans in their organic garden, and they invariably panic when the Livermore priest prompts them for their first-born's nakshatram. Um, rohiniaa, revathiaa? And yet they organize Diwali festivals with zeal, so that the kids can get their annual dose of desi culture. No Thyagaraja music festivals here. If they are lucky, they will hear (or better yet, sing) Kolaveri di on stage. But every other year without fail, they return to their Mambalam mothership to savor the joys of eating kalyaana sapaadu off a banana leaf, and to pay homage at their family temple in some obscure dusty village in Thanjavur district.


I can imagine the future. "Do you know about your family, your clan? Our ancestors were managers and engineers in Silicon Valley as IPOs came and went. Our family has run marathons across bridges, hiked the open space ridges and surfed these beaches for generations. We are Bay Area Iyers."
Click to expand...

prasadji,

That made interesting reading.

Thanks for bringing it here.
 
zebra16 said:
As this thread is winding down, may be it is time to summarize.

1. The focus of the thread was solely on retaining the numerical strength of Tamil Brahmins especially caused due to out of caste/religion marriages. But my opinion is that the the culture is getting fast eroded due to non-adherance to the customs and practices.

The inter-caste/religion marriage ratio was reported to be about 26% as per statistics. But my opinion is that 75% of the TBs do not perform their cultural obligations that too without any compelling reasons.

2. This is the only community I find always hypothesizing whether I am a TB, whether I am a Brahmin or whether I am a Tamilian etc. I have not come across any other community which has serious doubts about itself.

3. Many members repeatedly ask, is there a culture, specifically a TB culture and what is its speciality, whether it is worth preserving etc. But every member who participated in this thread joined this Tamil Brahmins’ Forum basically believing himself/herself to be of TB flock. Their sudden doubts about uniqueness of TB culture is a surprise.

4. Many liberal advisers are asking the parents to refrain from match-making efforts of their wards. But I am yet to come across a SINGLE CASE where the participating member who himself/herself went through marriage arranged by their parents finding fault with selection made by their parents. So why is that suddenly members want the parents to adopt hands off approach in marriage of their children?

5. People who advise right and left to go in for inter-caste/inter religious marriages, at least by the posts made in this thread have given up even the pretences of a Brahmin. So anyone who is seriously considering the suggestions should SUMMARILY REJECT the opinion of such members.

6. I think the need of the hour is to retain and maintain whatever anyone feels to be their cultural identify and consolidate therefrom.

7. Almost all the posts by TBs (in this thread as also in other threads) betray a yearning for Wealth & Recognition by TBs, which was nearly absent about 40 years back.

8. Respect to spiritual heads like MaThAdiphatis, Jeers, vAdhyArs, Bruhaspathis etc. have nose-dived during the last 30-40 years and in this very forum we have witnessed people discussing the supposed salacious details with gay abandon. It is hardly likely that when religious heads are being given such scant respect, scriptures will get special merit.
Click to expand...

Well summarized..In addition the suggestion of Brahmin panchayat is timely..We need aggression not a timid response to protect and preserve our culture and numbers
 
prasad1 said:
It is fashionable to talk about TB culture in circumspect terms, without specifying any thing. Each has their own identity and want others to follow it without being told exactly what it is. Then lament the decline in numbers etc.
Here is a different perspective of TB culture (west coast of USA).

West Coast Brahmins (non residents)


"Do you know about your family, your clan?" my uncle demanded. Indian? Tamil? I thought, dimly. He continued, "We are Vadama Iyers from Thanjavur district, our ancestors flourished as scholars and priests at court while kings came and went, we have sipped from the Kaveri river for generations". Sure enough, my older relatives proudly carried place names that reflected this geographic clustering, towns like Melakaveri, Sirkazhi and Kumbakonam starting off the multisyllabic chant of their full names.


We have dispersed across the globe since then, but one place has become the new Thanjavur. Within 30 miles of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco lives one of the densest populations of Iyers outside India. The Bay Area Brahmins.


The southern sect, the Silicon Valley Iyers, is mainstream. They are the fierce guardians of Iyer culture, keeping alive the language, music, dance and festivals. Their children attend Tamil school on Saturdays, Gita classes on Sundays, Carnatic music lessons during the week, and plan for their bharatanatyam arangetrams before the all-important junior year of high school. They score perfect 2400s on SATs and 12+ APs on their path to Ivy league programs, and play flute or violin for their school orchestra in their spare time. Some parents are eminent scholars in the fiefdoms of Cisco, IBM, Oracle and Google. Others are fanatics, priests at the temples of Zuckerberg, Jobs and Pincus. And yet, when Avani Avittam arrives, the men troop to Komala Vilas at 5 am, where they can switch into pristine poonal, eat madi samayal, and drink filter kapi, all the while watching a live cricket test match. The women do no less. Navaratri is ushered in with elaborate golus and extravagant kanchipurams. Dressed to kill and armed with visit schedules, yummy maamis jump in and out of Maybachs and Cayennes for rounds of speed socializing. Even sunbird grandparents contribute their bit, flocking to the ICC to argue about presidential primaries or bemoan the rising land prices in Los Altos.


The northern sect, the San Francisco Iyers, is the reform movement. They relocate to places like Burlingame, Mill Valley or Danville. Close enough to grab dosas on Fillmore or shop for appalam and vadam at Coconut Hill, but far enough to escape the intense pace of valley life. They enjoy sushi and dimsum, watch Andaz and MTV India, and send their children to Montessori or Waldorf or any school with a laidback attitude and a good sports program. Their offspring speak halting Tamil with an accent, play football and basketball, and pursue passions in unbrahminly professions like art or social work or architecture. Rumor has it that one actually went away to culinary school, ayyo paavam. Parents have likely used up their spare poonal to truss up the blue lake beans in their organic garden, and they invariably panic when the Livermore priest prompts them for their first-born's nakshatram. Um, rohiniaa, revathiaa? And yet they organize Diwali festivals with zeal, so that the kids can get their annual dose of desi culture. No Thyagaraja music festivals here. If they are lucky, they will hear (or better yet, sing) Kolaveri di on stage. But every other year without fail, they return to their Mambalam mothership to savor the joys of eating kalyaana sapaadu off a banana leaf, and to pay homage at their family temple in some obscure dusty village in Thanjavur district.


I can imagine the future. "Do you know about your family, your clan? Our ancestors were managers and engineers in Silicon Valley as IPOs came and went. Our family has run marathons across bridges, hiked the open space ridges and surfed these beaches for generations. We are Bay Area Iyers."
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Well written piece!

Actually similar write up is possible for other parts of USA (e.g., East coast states like NY, NJ, MA etc) and Canada. The TBs trying to follow the traditions including those who could be termed second generation Americans are very sincere.
 
auh said:
I too would like to say something before closure of this thread is considered. It may not be specific to any point or posts but is a random (and probably meandering) opinion based on my observations and (little) experience.

Post of sarcasm about brahmins and culture (made by me earlier) are to really know what we are talking about.

Though there seems to be some consensus about the identity of a brahmin (by birth), people do not want to say it aloud. They do not want to be known as casteist or racist. That is my first grudge. And probably objection. Objection since 99% of the people who are birth based brahmins will not qualify the rigorous test of a "pure" brahmin. This is from my limited experience and observation. I will state a few to substantiate my point:

1) Brahmins are seekers of knowledge and not wealth - (yadrushtaya laaba santushtaha) does not seem to fit in for we find conflicting and contradicting examples everywhere. I see priests greedy for money, vadhyars charging exhorbitant amounts, pious and ultra-orthodox brahmins being money-minded etc. I am not saying that they shouldnt ever worry about money, but the preoccupation with money whilst displaying the tag of belonging to a knowledge seeker group reeks of hypocrisy.

2) Following religious ways: how many shave their head to a kudumi (or a vilayattu kudumi) during their upanayanam. How many keep kudumis? Alright, then was an era of brahmin antagonism where kudumis were cut. What about now? Most vadhyars do not like the appala kudumi (or its several variations). And the others in employment or business - they care two hoots about the kudumi. How many perform pratah sandhya in a river bank. Argyam to surya should be with two hands. 99% do it with the panchaatra uddarani and with one palm. My intention is not to harp on little things, but these little things are conveniently ignored by most who call themselves brahmins. Again, for the sake of convenience, the timing of maadhyaanhika gayathri has shifted ahead by several hours. We justify by saying that "at least we are attempting to follow it". How many brahmins study vedas and upanishads regularly? In fact it is supposed to be their main job; in kanchi acharya's book, I can vaguely recollect that one of the dharmashastras allow brahmins to do the job of vaishyas and kshatriyas in adverse conditions. Ok, so do we find the rich brahmins inculcating the religious code in their wards since their adverse time is over? A big NO. A wife is supposed to be treated like a sakhi after the seventh step. How many "pure" brahmins of yore can claim to do that? Please note that I am not talking about exceptions here but the norm. Is this not hypocrisy?

3) Whether one likes it or not, being a brahmin mandates ritual purity. I have lived and grown up with it for so long. Madi, theetu, echil and patthu (the last one is often dropped even in religious households now) are integral parts of a brahmin household. If one were to follow all this, he cannot work in the contemporary work culture. My grand parents used to hang madi clothes from the top (in agraharam houses) where no one would be able to touch it. This too on a daily basis. Later this softened only to days when special rituals are required. Now this ritual purity mandates exclusivity; a true and pure brahmin can never mingle with the current society. In other words, they would have to live as a recluse (the community, I mean). Whether or not that is accepted is a different matter. We do not do that. Is this not hypocrisy?

4) There are too many "dos an donts" in a brahmin household - since the entire life is somewhat robotic, there is no concept of free will. Either the vadhyar or the acharya of the concerned mutt can only arbitrate on delicate matters. It is certainly bound to create an atmosphere of frustration and bondage. When something is to their advantage, "pure" brahmins do not hesitate to bend the rules a little. Like I said earlier, convenience and benefit decides the swaying %. Is this not hypocrisy?

5) Lastly, with all the rituals and ceremonies, where are we going? Where is saayujyam? Where is kailayam? Is it in some distant land, or in our minds? The preoccupation and obsession with rituals and breed purity has infested our minds and the purpose, if any, has been almost lost. No practicing brahmin has ever contemplated and attained a "samadarshinah" stage ever. Perhaps, after years take their toll on physique and desires, some realize the futility of what they have gone through and soften. But the majority still have the same weaknesses as they had in day 1. They believe that rituals, purity and mantras alone will carry them to a distant land after their death. If this is not delusion, what is?
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The term Brahmin here only refer to caste ( a birth based characterization) and hence there is no expectation of seeking knowledge only in today's world.

However in another era there was an effort to live up to the Varna definition of the term (Varna Brahmana or Guna Brahmana) through observance of many rituals. Somewhere the rituals seem to have evolved without any understanding of the underlying significance in many families which is certainly unsustainable over time.

There is no need to characterize the above phenomena as hypocrisy . It is one of ignorance 'achieved' over time.

Saayujyam and Kailayam etc are more of an expression of SV theology and hence I do not know the extent to which it is even known to Vaishnava people. I think it need not be practiced only by Brahmins (Iyengars). I can be corrected if my understanding is incorrect.
 
prasad1 said:
like Melakaveri, Sirkazhi and Kumbakonam starting off the multisyllabic chant of their full names.
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Interesting. My FIL's ancestors are from Melakaveri.

I can imagine the future. "Do you know about your family, your clan? Our ancestors were managers and engineers in Silicon Valley as IPOs came and went. Our family has run marathons across bridges, hiked the open space ridges and surfed these beaches for generations. We are Bay Area Iyers."
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We are Bay Area Iyers without subsects.
 
Raji Ram said:
The three categories written by Krishna are correct.

Each one thinks the way he lives is ONLY perfect. :thumb:

So....... how do we arrest the slide in TB numbers?
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Item 2 is a liability to B community. They must be ignored. They are of no use.

While Item 3 can stay for ever, item 1 is a fence sitter. They may switch over sides.

However, the attitude of items 1 and 3 can be modified to adjust to the changed environment, in order to retain B identity.
 
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