How to counter brahmin bashing??

[Jamadagneya]

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Kunjuppu:

When I used to live in the US, they had a nice expression for viewpoints like yours- "you've drunk the cool-aid". You sound more politically correct than anything. You are equating individual prosperity as defined by a materialist society as being the prosperity of the community at large. All you cite is that mercantilization and globalization of the community, completely negating and corroding its original culture, heritage and history, is prosperity.

Brahmins are under attack for very simple reasons, all over India and particularly TamilNad. Don't tell me some other communities also suffer some of these crises. I am only interested in my community. Here is proof: (I am borrowing the words of a friend of mine here, from a yahoo group)

a) According to the constitution of India, by way of Mandal reservation and other acts, Brahmans are second class citizens when seeking government jobs, admissions to colleges etc. Brahmins have a very high % of literacy, degree holdership etc. In fact, in my family, whether, vedic scholars or not, my people have had university degrees for nearly 7 generations, from the first time colleges were opened in India. and I know that there many many such families. Despite such high %, with 31% O.C reservation, in TN, they get a very small share of the pie, that too for extraordinary merit. An SC or ST with half-the-marks sits in the same class. There goes meritocracy. If it were 100% O.C. far more Brahmins will get in, not because they were Brahmin, but because they were smart and studied hard. But the consitution doesn't give you this fair chance. I got shocked when I found myself protected by equal opportunity laws in London and New York, but not protected in Madras. If someone makes a public comment against Brahmins, I am more protected in New York, than Madras, where the police will not come to my aid.

b) Particularly in Tamil Nadu, a proud Brahmin, sporting his roots and heritage well, speaking his own dialect, unafraidly appearing in Vibhuti or Tiruman or Chandan or Ash marks, i.e. maintaining his identity, cannot get elected anywhere in TamilNad. But a Muslim or a Thevar or a Vanniar can get elected, merely because he plays up his identity. A Brahmin has to suppress his identity to get elected. How many "purely Brahmin", Brahmin MLAs now sit in the "satta sabhai"? SV Sekar and Jayalalitha got elected for other reasons. Not for being clean politicians who embrace their Brahmin identity. How may mayors do you have? How many ward councillors do you have?
Do you recall how many ministers, rajgurus and generals were Brahmins before the time of the Arcot twins? This was a very powerful community, even in politics. But, today?

We shouldn't want to Brahmanize the state, but where is the respect in society that we had just two generations ago?

c) There is a systematic war by the English-language press and the govt, state and centre, in suppressing Hinduism, Sanskritism and Brahmins contributions to India. This is very clear if you have done any research in the history of India from ancient times- particularly the intellectual culture of the 1850-1940 period of TamilNad state. Visit the state archives at Connemara library and spend a few days doing this.

d) You are only talking about cases of individual prosperity- you are not considering the fact, that you are part of a larger community. Each time one more temple is closed, each time a Brahmin priest's son refuses to take up the cloth and takes secular education, every Brahmin must weep. Each time you hear a "potri" in a temple, and not a "namaH", you must weep. If I looked at my bank balance or my education or my children's purses, then I may not be individually affected. But that is being selfish.

e) You did the predictable thing. Look for evidence on the web, the newspapers etc. When the media is tilted against you, no one wants to report you- how will you find any word of it? The biggest holocaust is a silent holocaust. When the Allies came to Auschwitz was when the world learned about the Holocaust. Not earlier. You want to experience the holocaust, go to places that supported huge Brahmin populations and traditions- districts like Tanjore, Trichy, Tinnevelly, Arcot- go look at the old dilapidated temples, the vacated agraharams, formerly Brahmin-owned lands lost to squatters, priests doing other jobs to survive- go to the villages, go to Kapali Temple or Parthasarathy temple and ask the priests outside about their livelihood and status- how the govt doesn't care for them- get your information for yourself. Have you ever tried to run a temple in your native place? How much you have to trade-off to get HRCE funds, how this money goes to churches and mosques easily? A war against Hinduism is more a war against Brahmins. Brahmins embody Hinduism. All the Jews in American and the West, did not suffer the Holocaust. Only those living in German territories did. But, the Jews in America were prosperous. Do they not perceive the Holocaust as having affected them too?

f) The govt is not able to order a genocide of Brahmins, but they are doing everything else. Every record about you in history, in the books or in popular culture is disappearing fast.

g) Whatever prosperity Brahmins have, is individual. It is achieved by individual enterprise, against the backdrop of a state that is predisposed against you. It is achieved by completely trading away your identity. It is achieved by giving up the darbhai for a computer. You can't keep both these days. No one is really learned in both systems-Eastern or Western these days, as they used to be until the 1950s. Lots of my aged relatives and people I know from that generation, had both a western and an eastern education. Where is that spirit now? How many of us have attended even a day at a Veda Patashala? Can speak Sanskrit? Know exactly how do a daily fire sacrifice? Don't equate being a Brahmin with merely being vegetarian, wearing a punal, knowing your gotram and a a handful of shlokams?

If the environment weren't so hostile to you and your way of life, would such things be happening? If instead, Brahmins and what they stood for and the good they do, had state support like in olden times, wouldn't we all have done this, and still studied science? E.g. CV Raman and his assistant Krishnan. Remember the incident about the alcoholic effect on Raman? Not that CV Raman had any state support, but even in a land ruled by foreigners, he didn't have Mandal, Periyarites and Viramani against him. Even you, a Brahmin are denying a holocaust.

Will you call it a holocaust only if you are cooked alive in an open stove and Spielberg makes a move about it? Is it not a holocaust if your heritage is erased from the public record and your own memory?

When other communities also "prosper" in globalized times, they too give up some of their heritage- but most of them came from the masses. They don't have a huge heritage to speak of, like Brahmins do. If a Thevar globalizes, all he has given up is Kalari, Kambu, Vel vilaiyatu and farming as a profession. When a Chetty globalizes, all he gives up is the financial customs of his forefathers. But, a Brahmin? He has to give up every inch of his 60-century intellectual heritage.

All the progress you mention, is merely representative of the fact that Brahmans have kept up with the times. It doesn't say anything more. In fact, Brahmans have always been progressive. Recall that in ancient Greece and India, women were considered public property before marital laws were codified. And it was Shwetaketu, a Brahmin who invented the first marital laws. From that time, Brahmans have done a lot. People who build edifices of cultural identity for a nation and integrate it, are always progressive. What Gandhi did for two decades, Brahmins have done for millennia.

Historically, there is now no real thing called a "Tamil Andanan". They existed in the Sangam times. Today they can't be more than 1% of the Tamil Brahmin population. Everyone else has historically traceable roots from elsewhere. May be if there were a Brahman genome project, we can prove this genetically too. For instance, we know when Vadamas migrated, in terms of traditions, their practices etc. Both Saivite, Vaishnavite and secular scholars have commented on such things. Descendants of Vadamas constitute a good number of Iyer as well as Iyengar population. The "Tamil Andandan" has his descendants only among some "chozhiyam" families of Tinnevelly now. If you don't want to read scholarly sources like PhD theses about such matters, (I remember a stellar thesis by a lady in the Meerut university in 1960, about Brahmin holocaust in Mayuram), at least read easily available material like the lectures of Kanchi periyaval. I mention him specifically though I don't agree with many other things he taught, because he has written extensively about the various Brahmin migrations, effects on Vedic dialects, Sangam-age Brahmins etc. Interestingly, he concluded anecdotally, based purely on his own study and observations, what academicians can support with formal research.

All you are telling me is that with these so-called advances you cite, Brahmans have "prospered". This is not true prosperity and this is not prosperity of the community at large. When Kamala Hasan's movie caricutarized and bashed Brahmins and Hindus, how many rose up? Was there any serious reaction from ******* or other people? First of all, how many Brahmins who saw the Dasavatharam movie, even understood the subtext of anti-Brahmin bigotry? When you have traitorous Brahmins like this fellow, Ram and Ravi of The Hindu etc in the mass media, what else can you expect, but a deafening silence about the Brahman Holocaust?! The recent move of New Year by the CM to Jan 14, is a barefaced slap against Brahmins, As is tamil archanai, or calling Deepvali, "deepa oli tirunal". Don't you realize that the Aryan-Dravidian theory has died out even in hostile Western academia, but is state policy in TamilNad? Each time a policy is enacted or their is social engineering or meddling with customs, it is always Brahman baiting. How about social justice for Brahmins for a change? Have you tried to get any merit-cum-means grants or scholarship or pension from the govt? Do you know how tough it is for the poor Brahmin communities in the South. And with stuporous, languorous organizations like ******* we arent fighting back- or even helping each other as survivalists.

So, these matters aren't pan-Brahmin. They affect the Tamil Brahmin the most and the Andhra Brahmin next. Because it is in these states that anti-Brahminism is so rampant. Tamilnad led the way. Andhra followed. A Tamil Brahmin has therefore the highest duty to fight for his kind, first, before anybody else lines up for the Brahmin cause.

Wake up!

 

[silverfox]

Dear Shri Jamadagneya:
When I first read your posting, I thought to myself "hmmmm... good posting". Then my friend, Shri Kunjuppu, came up with some real good questions. But then your latest response is great; makes me think. Let us keep this dialog going; we all can learn from this and use it for the advancement of our community.

By the way, I am expressing my views as a fellow member.

 

[RVR]

Jamadagneya ji,

Your article is really thought provoking.

I wanted to join discussions with you.

Since I have stopped discussions for a quite some time, I am unable to participate.

Let us hope the administrators of this forum will bring out transparent rules and regulations so that none of our discussions are censored after few days of appearance.

Till that time, I can only appreciate people like you

All the best

 

[pannvalan]

Both Kunjuppu and Jamadagneya have presented their viewpoints from their own perspectives in a lucid and forceful manner.

But, between the two, I find more truth in Jamdagneya's write-up. Agreed, we dominated the scene in Tamilnadu until early 1960s. But, even the right share due to us is denied in the present scheme of things.

People are proud to call themselves 'Goundars', 'Thevars', 'Nadars', 'Yadavas' et al.
But, can we openly profess our caste identity or reveal our caste marks, leaving aside the question if they are necessary or unnecessary in today's context?

I shall tell Jamadagneya that in A.P. the anti-Brahmin posture is not so accentuated as in Tamilnadu. In other southern or northern states too, caste distinction exists but never doesn't make people forming warring groups basing on their caste identity. (atrocities against SC/STs in some pockets is a separate subject).

I am also aware of the fact that the anti-brahminism that was at its peak until 1970s has been slowly dwindling for the past 15 years or so. But, yet there is a long way to go. The only redeeming feature here is youth of urban background today do not have time to think about castes and all and hence they are open and inclusive in their outlook and behaviour. Thank God!

 

[tbs]

Kunjuppu:

When I used to live in the US, they had a nice expression for viewpoints like yours- "you've drunk the cool-aid". You sound more politically correct than anything. You are equating individual prosperity as defined by a materialist society as being the prosperity of the community at large. All you cite is that mercantilization and globalization of the community, completely negating and corroding its original culture, heritage and history, is prosperity.

Brahmins are under attack for very simple reasons, all over India and particularly TamilNad. Don't tell me some other communities also suffer some of these crises. I am only interested in my community. Here is proof: (I am borrowing the words of a friend of mine here, from a yahoo group)

a) According to the constitution of India, by way of Mandal reservation and other acts, Brahmans are second class citizens when seeking government jobs, admissions to colleges etc. Brahmins have a very high % of literacy, degree holdership etc. In fact, in my family, whether, vedic scholars or not, my people have had university degrees for nearly 7 generations, from the first time colleges were opened in India. and I know that there many many such families. Despite such high %, with 31% O.C reservation, in TN, they get a very small share of the pie, that too for extraordinary merit. An SC or ST with half-the-marks sits in the same class. There goes meritocracy. If it were 100% O.C. far more Brahmins will get in, not because they were Brahmin, but because they were smart and studied hard. But the consitution doesn't give you this fair chance. I got shocked when I found myself protected by equal opportunity laws in London and New York, but not protected in Madras. If someone makes a public comment against Brahmins, I am more protected in New York, than Madras, where the police will not come to my aid.

b) Particularly in Tamil Nadu, a proud Brahmin, sporting his roots and heritage well, speaking his own dialect, unafraidly appearing in Vibhuti or Tiruman or Chandan or Ash marks, i.e. maintaining his identity, cannot get elected anywhere in TamilNad. But a Muslim or a Thevar or a Vanniar can get elected, merely because he plays up his identity. A Brahmin has to suppress his identity to get elected. How many "purely Brahmin", Brahmin MLAs now sit in the "satta sabhai"? SV Sekar and Jayalalitha got elected for other reasons. Not for being clean politicians who embrace their Brahmin identity. How may mayors do you have? How many ward councillors do you have?
Do you recall how many ministers, rajgurus and generals were Brahmins before the time of the Arcot twins? This was a very powerful community, even in politics. But, today?

We shouldn't want to Brahmanize the state, but where is the respect in society that we had just two generations ago?

c) There is a systematic war by the English-language press and the govt, state and centre, in suppressing Hinduism, Sanskritism and Brahmins contributions to India. This is very clear if you have done any research in the history of India from ancient times- particularly the intellectual culture of the 1850-1940 period of TamilNad state. Visit the state archives at Connemara library and spend a few days doing this.

d) You are only talking about cases of individual prosperity- you are not considering the fact, that you are part of a larger community. Each time one more temple is closed, each time a Brahmin priest's son refuses to take up the cloth and takes secular education, every Brahmin must weep. Each time you hear a "potri" in a temple, and not a "namaH", you must weep. If I looked at my bank balance or my education or my children's purses, then I may not be individually affected. But that is being selfish.

e) You did the predictable thing. Look for evidence on the web, the newspapers etc. When the media is tilted against you, no one wants to report you- how will you find any word of it? The biggest holocaust is a silent holocaust. When the Allies came to Auschwitz was when the world learned about the Holocaust. Not earlier. You want to experience the holocaust, go to places that supported huge Brahmin populations and traditions- districts like Tanjore, Trichy, Tinnevelly, Arcot- go look at the old dilapidated temples, the vacated agraharams, formerly Brahmin-owned lands lost to squatters, priests doing other jobs to survive- go to the villages, go to Kapali Temple or Parthasarathy temple and ask the priests outside about their livelihood and status- how the govt doesn't care for them- get your information for yourself. Have you ever tried to run a temple in your native place? How much you have to trade-off to get HRCE funds, how this money goes to churches and mosques easily? A war against Hinduism is more a war against Brahmins. Brahmins embody Hinduism. All the Jews in American and the West, did not suffer the Holocaust. Only those living in German territories did. But, the Jews in America were prosperous. Do they not perceive the Holocaust as having affected them too?

f) The govt is not able to order a genocide of Brahmins, but they are doing everything else. Every record about you in history, in the books or in popular culture is disappearing fast.

g) Whatever prosperity Brahmins have, is individual. It is achieved by individual enterprise, against the backdrop of a state that is predisposed against you. It is achieved by completely trading away your identity. It is achieved by giving up the darbhai for a computer. You can't keep both these days. No one is really learned in both systems-Eastern or Western these days, as they used to be until the 1950s. Lots of my aged relatives and people I know from that generation, had both a western and an eastern education. Where is that spirit now? How many of us have attended even a day at a Veda Patashala? Can speak Sanskrit? Know exactly how do a daily fire sacrifice? Don't equate being a Brahmin with merely being vegetarian, wearing a punal, knowing your gotram and a a handful of shlokams?

If the environment weren't so hostile to you and your way of life, would such things be happening? If instead, Brahmins and what they stood for and the good they do, had state support like in olden times, wouldn't we all have done this, and still studied science? E.g. CV Raman and his assistant Krishnan. Remember the incident about the alcoholic effect on Raman? Not that CV Raman had any state support, but even in a land ruled by foreigners, he didn't have Mandal, Periyarites and Viramani against him. Even you, a Brahmin are denying a holocaust.

Will you call it a holocaust only if you are cooked alive in an open stove and Spielberg makes a move about it? Is it not a holocaust if your heritage is erased from the public record and your own memory?

When other communities also "prosper" in globalized times, they too give up some of their heritage- but most of them came from the masses. They don't have a huge heritage to speak of, like Brahmins do. If a Thevar globalizes, all he has given up is Kalari, Kambu, Vel vilaiyatu and farming as a profession. When a Chetty globalizes, all he gives up is the financial customs of his forefathers. But, a Brahmin? He has to give up every inch of his 60-century intellectual heritage.

All the progress you mention, is merely representative of the fact that Brahmans have kept up with the times. It doesn't say anything more. In fact, Brahmans have always been progressive. Recall that in ancient Greece and India, women were considered public property before marital laws were codified. And it was Shwetaketu, a Brahmin who invented the first marital laws. From that time, Brahmans have done a lot. People who build edifices of cultural identity for a nation and integrate it, are always progressive. What Gandhi did for two decades, Brahmins have done for millennia.

Historically, there is now no real thing called a "Tamil Andanan". They existed in the Sangam times. Today they can't be more than 1% of the Tamil Brahmin population. Everyone else has historically traceable roots from elsewhere. May be if there were a Brahman genome project, we can prove this genetically too. For instance, we know when Vadamas migrated, in terms of traditions, their practices etc. Both Saivite, Vaishnavite and secular scholars have commented on such things. Descendants of Vadamas constitute a good number of Iyer as well as Iyengar population. The "Tamil Andandan" has his descendants only among some "chozhiyam" families of Tinnevelly now. If you don't want to read scholarly sources like PhD theses about such matters, (I remember a stellar thesis by a lady in the Meerut university in 1960, about Brahmin holocaust in Mayuram), at least read easily available material like the lectures of Kanchi periyaval. I mention him specifically though I don't agree with many other things he taught, because he has written extensively about the various Brahmin migrations, effects on Vedic dialects, Sangam-age Brahmins etc. Interestingly, he concluded anecdotally, based purely on his own study and observations, what academicians can support with formal research.

All you are telling me is that with these so-called advances you cite, Brahmans have "prospered". This is not true prosperity and this is not prosperity of the community at large. When Kamala Hasan's movie caricutarized and bashed Brahmins and Hindus, how many rose up? Was there any serious reaction from ******* or other people? First of all, how many Brahmins who saw the Dasavatharam movie, even understood the subtext of anti-Brahmin bigotry? When you have traitorous Brahmins like this fellow, Ram and Ravi of The Hindu etc in the mass media, what else can you expect, but a deafening silence about the Brahman Holocaust?! The recent move of New Year by the CM to Jan 14, is a barefaced slap against Brahmins, As is tamil archanai, or calling Deepvali, "deepa oli tirunal". Don't you realize that the Aryan-Dravidian theory has died out even in hostile Western academia, but is state policy in TamilNad? Each time a policy is enacted or their is social engineering or meddling with customs, it is always Brahman baiting. How about social justice for Brahmins for a change? Have you tried to get any merit-cum-means grants or scholarship or pension from the govt? Do you know how tough it is for the poor Brahmin communities in the South. And with stuporous, languorous organizations like ******* we arent fighting back- or even helping each other as survivalists.

So, these matters aren't pan-Brahmin. They affect the Tamil Brahmin the most and the Andhra Brahmin next. Because it is in these states that anti-Brahminism is so rampant. Tamilnad led the way. Andhra followed. A Tamil Brahmin has therefore the highest duty to fight for his kind, first, before anybody else lines up for the Brahmin cause.

Wake up!

hi jamadagneya
thank u so much...nice information...its holocaust against hindus
aiming to destroy bhahminism...especially against tamil brahmins..
i just read a speech by thiruvidaimarudur addenam recently held in chennai ...samayam thaan thamizhai kappatra mmudiyum..
we will come up from these hurdles...as sri krishna said in
bhagavad gita....yadaa yadda hi dharmasya glani bhavati bharata..
meaning whenever there is threat for dharma...some kinda
form of god will protect us.....we trust in GOD...dharmo rakshati
rakshitaha....only jews suffered in germany...now whole
world has fear of Isreal/jews....jews are living in the
middle of enemies...still survive....we will survive...we are
fittest/more adaptable in the world.......its my 2 cents opinion..
UTHISHDA...JAAGRATHA....PRAPYAVARANIBHOTATA...
ARISE.........AWAKE...........TILL YOU SUCCEED...

regards
tbs

 

[anandb]

Dear Shri. Jamadagneya,

What a hard hitting post? Absolutely brilliant. I concur on most of what you said. Parmacharyal said it beautifully. The materialistic west is now waking up to Eastern spiritualism while we Indians are now hankering after materialistic pursuits. And that was during his times. Now we can only sigh. He was always advising the Brahmins not to forsake their kula dharma and traditions. Who listens now?

I am always amazed by one thing. Does proximity and familiarity with one's traditions breed some kind of contempt for it as time progresses? You see the new converts into Islam or Christianity. They seem to carry more zeal in trying to follow the tenets of their new religion. There is a lot of anti-Hinduism going on everywhere and sadly Hindus are not even aware of it. I came across this article recently which I am producing in part below.

Electronic Media and Hindu Sentiments – I
Thamizhchelvan
26 Oct 2009
[Tamil Hindus have noted an increasingly anti-Hindu bias in the electronic media. Recently, a programme telecast by Vijay TV of ‘Star TV’ Group on 11 October, in Tamil, ridiculed the Hindu cultural practice of married women wearing Mangalsutras and insulted Hindu women. There is growing concern that this is part of a concerted socio-political move to defame and delegitimise all aspects of Hindu tradition in public life – Editor]



Christian Media House insulting Hindus

As a milestone on this destructive path, Chennai based ‘Vijay TV,’ part of Rupert Murdoch’s media empire (Star TV Group), has been telecasting a programme titled “Neeyaa Naanaa” (You or Me – Tum aur Mein) every Sunday for over two years. It is produced by another Christian production company called Mercury Creations; the CEO is one Antony. The programme is anchored by one Gopinath, also a Christian. It is basically a discussion forum wherein two teams (one ‘for’ and one ‘against’) debate a subject before a chief guest (a supposed celebrity), and finally the chief guest and anchor declare their ‘verdict’ in conformity with the ‘motive’ of the producer firm.

It has been noticed that this company invariably takes Hindu oriented subjects for discussion, and demeans Hindu culture, insults Hindu tradition and wounds the religious sentiments of Hindus, planting seeds of poison in the minds of gullible viewers (mostly Hindus) so that they suspect and distrust their own cultural heritage and religious traditions.


A few weeks ago, for instance, the channel telecast a debate: “Do we need to worship the Kula Devatas?” The debate was organized between ‘elders’ and ‘youngsters’, elders talking about Kula Devata worship and youngsters against it. It programme would certainly have impacted upon the innocent minds of the next generation against Kula Devata worship.


Similarly sensitive topics like, “Why not we have Tamil archana in temples?”, “Why should we have only Brahmins as archagas in Agamic temples?” have been debated with the motive of ridiculing Vedic and Agamic principles and to project only so-called Brahminism as Hinduism. These topics were utilized to the hilt to create a rift between Purohits and Pujaris and alienate worshippers of village deities. Another topic “Which is better, arranged marriage or love marriage?” saw Hindu customs ridiculed.


Normally, the participants, who are supposed to talk in favour of the production company’s motive, are handpicked by the company; even if the other team’s participants perform better, their arguments get edited. This writer has had the personal experience of participating in one such programme, anchored by the same Gopinath.


Unfortunately, most participants are Hindus who simply come to show their faces on television without realizing that they are also playing a part in the denigration of their religion and culture. For such persons, seeing themselves on the TV screen is a big achievement, to boast about in the neighbourhood. This is a reason for the obsession with sending children to so-called ‘Reality Shows’, which smack of indecency and even vulgarity.


Vijay TV’s audacious show


The last debate telecast by Vijay TV must be viewed in this backdrop and the topic debated on Sunday, 11 October 2009, between 9 pm and 10 pm (primetime Sunday) was, “Should the Mangalsutra be necessarily worn by women?”

In course of the debate, the sacred Hindu custom was ridiculed in demeaning terms and the Mangalsutra termed as just an ‘ordinary thing’ which need not be worn. Some of the outrageous comments made by the anchor and some participants include:


- Wearing the Mangalsutra is only a superstition; it doesn’t have any sanctity attached to it; the Mangalsutra is just an ordinary thing.


- Most women do not wear it nowadays.


- Women who go out for jobs do not want to show themselves as ‘married’ and hence they conceal their Mangalsutra inside their blouses.


- A lot of women do not wear it while sleeping at night.


- Many women do not wear it while going out and prefer to leave it at home.


- It is like a dog’s license hanging round the neck. The Mangalsutra is only a marriage license and doesn’t have any sanctity (comment by a Christian lady)


The arrogant Gopinath asked a participant who supported wearing Mangalsutras if she would remove hers if a doctor asked her to do so before a surgery. The lady replied that she would obey the doctor and wear it again after the surgery. The anchor teased her, “Will you do whatever the doctor says?” which made her squirm in embarrassment.


In a shocking incident, one lady simply removed her Mangalsutra and handed it over to the anchor when he asked for it. Chief guest Nirmala Periyasamy, a former news reader in SUN TV, who belongs to the school of Dravidian thought, gave the ‘Best Participant’ prize to this lady. When the prize was handed over, the anchor forced the other participants to applaud her for her ‘courage’ and ‘rational’ thinking.


It was obvious that this lady and others who spoke against the sanctity of the Mangalsutra were handpicked by the production company and that the arguments of the opposite team have been edited sharply. The anchor openly bullied participants who spoke in support of wearing the Mangalsutra and the sanctity attached to it. One can imagine the adverse impact this programme could have made on the minds of young girls and innocents in semi-urban and rural areas.

 

[happyhindu]

Some views:

a) According to the constitution of India, by way of Mandal reservation and other acts, Brahmans are second class citizens when seeking government jobs, admissions to colleges etc. Brahmins have a very high % of literacy, degree holdership etc. In fact, in my family, whether, vedic scholars or not, my people have had university degrees for nearly 7 generations, from the first time colleges were opened in India. and I know that there many many such families. Despite such high %, with 31% O.C reservation, in TN, they get a very small share of the pie, that too for extraordinary merit. An SC or ST with half-the-marks sits in the same class. There goes meritocracy. If it were 100% O.C. far more Brahmins will get in, not because they were Brahmin, but because they were smart and studied hard. But the consitution doesn't give you this fair chance. I got shocked when I found myself protected by equal opportunity laws in London and New York, but not protected in Madras. If someone makes a public comment against Brahmins, I am more protected in New York, than Madras, where the police will not come to my aid.

Brahmins are not the only people who are not getting reservations. This is the Tamilnadu list of BCs: LIST OF BACKWARD CLASSES* APPROVED Most telugu communities living in TN such as Kamma, Kapu, Balija, Reddy do not figure in that list. Every year i see many of them getting into professional colleges under open competition. Several have been going overseas for higher studies as well.

Only in the recent times, i am getting to hear about a drastic fall in standards due to a growing number of private colleges that thrive on donations. Anyone even with substandard school performance is able to get an admission in these private colleges. People who survive on donation seats come from almost all castes.


b) Particularly in Tamil Nadu, a proud Brahmin, sporting his roots and heritage well, speaking his own dialect, unafraidly appearing in Vibhuti or Tiruman or Chandan or Ash marks, i.e. maintaining his identity, cannot get elected anywhere in TamilNad. But a Muslim or a Thevar or a Vanniar can get elected, merely because he plays up his identity. A Brahmin has to suppress his identity to get elected. How many "purely Brahmin", Brahmin MLAs now sit in the "satta sabhai"? SV Sekar and Jayalalitha got elected for other reasons. Not for being clean politicians who embrace their Brahmin identity. How may mayors do you have? How many ward councillors do you have?
Do you recall how many ministers, rajgurus and generals were Brahmins before the time of the Arcot twins? This was a very powerful community, even in politics. But, today?

We shouldn't want to Brahmanize the state, but where is the respect in society that we had just two generations ago?

A community with a small number as 3 to 7% can perhaps manage to get perhaps only 2-3 seats if every single person of the brahmin community voted for his own caste member. To get represented in large numbers, brahmins wud need the support of other castes. It wud have not possible when brahmins were seen as oppressors by the general masses. Now there is no such ideology. But many do not wish to enter politics because it is considered a sewerage to enter. Even in other castes, i notice that people with political leanings or connections are seen as 'those people' (not considered respectable) by the usual masses. The professions of choice are obviously technology, medicine and the like.


c) There is a systematic war by the English-language press and the govt, state and centre, in suppressing Hinduism, Sanskritism and Brahmins contributions to India. This is very clear if you have done any research in the history of India from ancient times- particularly the intellectual culture of the 1850-1940 period of TamilNad state. Visit the state archives at Connemara library and spend a few days doing this.

Could you please specify a few instances if Connemara has suppressed hinduism?

e) You did the predictable thing. Look for evidence on the web, the newspapers etc. When the media is tilted against you, no one wants to report you- how will you find any word of it? The biggest holocaust is a silent holocaust. When the Allies came to Auschwitz was when the world learned about the Holocaust. Not earlier. You want to experience the holocaust, go to places that supported huge Brahmin populations and traditions- districts like Tanjore, Trichy, Tinnevelly, Arcot- go look at the old dilapidated temples, the vacated agraharams, formerly Brahmin-owned lands lost to squatters, priests doing other jobs to survive- go to the villages, go to Kapali Temple or Parthasarathy temple and ask the priests outside about their livelihood and status- how the govt doesn't care for them- get your information for yourself. Have you ever tried to run a temple in your native place? How much you have to trade-off to get HRCE funds, how this money goes to churches and mosques easily? A war against Hinduism is more a war against Brahmins. Brahmins embody Hinduism. All the Jews in American and the West, did not suffer the Holocaust. Only those living in German territories did. But, the Jews in America were prosperous. Do they not perceive the Holocaust as having affected them too?

i think the problem is this - the whole idea that "brahmins embody hindusim". it sort of invites people (esp missionaries and mullahs and their sponsored associates) to attack brahmins.

i do not think hinduism has survived for so long in a country because of brahmins alone. can brahmins please shed this tag of 'because of us only' and 'only we embody hindusim' or as i came across a comment in the past "brahmins architected hinduism"..

just as you mention about government not asking priests about their livelihood, there may be other communities who wish to question the governemnt on why it is not helping their profession. i heard the padmashalis and weavers live a miserable life of poverty because government does not help their weaving skills (profits are made either by middlemen or by big retail shops like kumarans, pothys, nalli, etc; and government does nothing to help these weavers)....

f) The govt is not able to order a genocide of Brahmins, but they are doing everything else. Every record about you in history, in the books or in popular culture is disappearing fast.

Could you please quote specific examples please?

g) Whatever prosperity Brahmins have, is individual. It is achieved by individual enterprise, against the backdrop of a state that is predisposed against you. It is achieved by completely trading away your identity. It is achieved by giving up the darbhai for a computer. You can't keep both these days. No one is really learned in both systems-Eastern or Western these days, as they used to be until the 1950s. Lots of my aged relatives and people I know from that generation, had both a western and an eastern education. Where is that spirit now? How many of us have attended even a day at a Veda Patashala? Can speak Sanskrit? Know exactly how do a daily fire sacrifice? Don't equate being a Brahmin with merely being vegetarian, wearing a punal, knowing your gotram and a a handful of shlokams?

Isn;t this a problem with the brahmins tehmselves? Is this not a problem with "changing times" everywhere? Can a former landed zamindar family ask the governemnt to return their lands and their administrator position of those lands? Can a rajput ask the governemnt to give his land back so that he can rule as a king on it?

If the environment weren't so hostile to you and your way of life, would such things be happening? If instead, Brahmins and what they stood for and the good they do, had state support like in olden times, wouldn't we all have done this, and still studied science? E.g. CV Raman and his assistant Krishnan. Remember the incident about the alcoholic effect on Raman? Not that CV Raman had any state support, but even in a land ruled by foreigners, he didn't have Mandal, Periyarites and Viramani against him. Even you, a Brahmin are denying a holocaust.

Will you call it a holocaust only if you are cooked alive in an open stove and Spielberg makes a move about it? Is it not a holocaust if your heritage is erased from the public record and your own memory?

(to me) holocaust is too extreme a word....i don;t think brahmins have been put in concentration camps and exterminated like that to qualify that kind of self-pity...even in the online classes i take on judaism, i am not coming across jews carrying baggage of that sort..they are simply tehre to learn something about judaism at their own pace and time...

When other communities also "prosper" in globalized times, they too give up some of their heritage- but most of them came from the masses. They don't have a huge heritage to speak of, like Brahmins do. If a Thevar globalizes, all he has given up is Kalari, Kambu, Vel vilaiyatu and farming as a profession. When a Chetty globalizes, all he gives up is the financial customs of his forefathers. But, a Brahmin? He has to give up every inch of his 60-century intellectual heritage.

All the progress you mention, is merely representative of the fact that Brahmans have kept up with the times. It doesn't say anything more. In fact, Brahmans have always been progressive. Recall that in ancient Greece and India, women were considered public property before marital laws were codified. And it was Shwetaketu, a Brahmin who invented the first marital laws. From that time, Brahmans have done a lot. People who build edifices of cultural identity for a nation and integrate it, are always progressive. What Gandhi did for two decades, Brahmins have done for millennia.

Not sure on what basis wud you say that brahmins have done for 'millenia' what gandhi did for 2 decades...

Historically, there is now no real thing called a "Tamil Andanan". They existed in the Sangam times. Today they can't be more than 1% of the Tamil Brahmin population. Everyone else has historically traceable roots from elsewhere. May be if there were a Brahman genome project, we can prove this genetically too.

Wud be interesting indeed

For instance, we know when Vadamas migrated, in terms of traditions, their practices etc. Both Saivite, Vaishnavite and secular scholars have commented on such things. Descendants of Vadamas constitute a good number of Iyer as well as Iyengar population. The "Tamil Andandan" has his descendants only among some "chozhiyam" families of Tinnevelly now. If you don't want to read scholarly sources like PhD theses about such matters, (I remember a stellar thesis by a lady in the Meerut university in 1960, about Brahmin holocaust in Mayuram), at least read easily available material like the lectures of Kanchi periyaval. I mention him specifically though I don't agree with many other things he taught, because he has written extensively about the various Brahmin migrations, effects on Vedic dialects, Sangam-age Brahmins etc. Interestingly, he concluded anecdotally, based purely on his own study and observations, what academicians can support with formal research.

All you are telling me is that with these so-called advances you cite, Brahmans have "prospered". This is not true prosperity and this is not prosperity of the community at large. When Kamala Hasan's movie caricutarized and bashed Brahmins and Hindus, how many rose up? Was there any serious reaction from ******* or other people? First of all, how many Brahmins who saw the Dasavatharam movie, even understood the subtext of anti-Brahmin bigotry? When you have traitorous Brahmins like this fellow, Ram and Ravi of The Hindu etc in the mass media, what else can you expect, but a deafening silence about the Brahman Holocaust?! The recent move of New Year by the CM to Jan 14, is a barefaced slap against Brahmins, As is tamil archanai, or calling Deepvali, "deepa oli tirunal". Don't you realize that the Aryan-Dravidian theory has died out even in hostile Western academia, but is state policy in TamilNad? Each time a policy is enacted or their is social engineering or meddling with customs, it is always Brahman baiting. How about social justice for Brahmins for a change? Have you tried to get any merit-cum-means grants or scholarship or pension from the govt? Do you know how tough it is for the poor Brahmin communities in the South. And with stuporous, languorous organizations like ******* we arent fighting back- or even helping each other as survivalists.

So, these matters aren't pan-Brahmin. They affect the Tamil Brahmin the most and the Andhra Brahmin next. Because it is in these states that anti-Brahminism is so rampant. Tamilnad led the way. Andhra followed. A Tamil Brahmin has therefore the highest duty to fight for his kind, first, before anybody else lines up for the Brahmin cause.

Have not heard of antibrahmanism in andhra. The people there have a very different (moneyminded type of) mentality as compared to the tamils. Methinks if tehre was a antikamma agitation in andhra, it wud get very many supporters, from reddys to naxalites...

Wake up!

 

[kunjuppu]

jama,

thank you for your lengthy answer.

this post looks to me like something lifted out of recruitment poster of right wing organization, with a trend to violence. yours is the initial excerpt, setting the groundwork, to the next stage, which will blame the other groups for our supposed misery, and name them.

then will come the recruiting piece, where the youth will be sacrificed by self serving politico goondas, with their own agenda.

i have given detailed reply to your initial fiery post. you have dismissed in one line as if they are of no consequence.

you have gone all over in your efforts to come up with an emotional harangue, which can bring up anger and frustration in TBs.

let me once again go by your points and i request you to go back to my previous post, and answer me point by point where what is wrong with what i said.

a. it is unfortunate that you do not wish to appreciate the gross inequalities which the caste system imposed. if you want india as a whole to go ahead without a violent social revolution, there needs to be a stake for every group in the life of the country.

there is always a case against reservation and case for meritocracy, whatever it may be. it probably was what tamil nadu was in the 50s and 60s, when TBs were the dominant all over the ruling spectrum and education spectrum of Tamil Nadu.

such things of domination by one community cannot go on forever. in other countries, social revolutions have been violent. here, tamil nadu, due to oncoming better opportunities we have moved on.

we cannot blame reservations on our diaspora status. i do not agree with you that reservation has contributed to any decline. we as a community started moving out since 1920s and we have done well for ourselves.

we sought greener opportunities abroad and in the north to poor paying civil service jobs of tamil nadu. other communities are now following our lead.

b. it is the same blindness to the changing winds of tamil nadu and our inability to move along with times, that has contributed, i think, to our political eclipse in tamil nadu.

the only and the only ever time, when TBs were at any position of lead in politics was during the indedpendence movement. post independence, the rules changed towards a democratic system, and sir, i think, we simply did not how to play this game. the other communities were cleverer and we could perhaps copy a page or two from their books.

c. again wild accusation re systematic suppression of hinduism etc. sir, if you want to study sanskrit who is stopping you?

d. i do not understand your arguement. it is my feeling that we as a community are prosperous as ever. there are pockets of poverty, which should be addressed from within. richer TB can open up their purses wider to give scholarships for poorer youths. if you look around, there is no dearth of seats for any college admissions. it has become expensive, for everyone.

f. unsubstantiated.

g. further on, i think, it is simply arrogant to dismiss other groups as worth insignificant compared to a brahmin's 60 century cultural heritage. this is the type of talk that gets you into right wing clubs which plot against the unity and peaceful structure of the country.

i, for one, like tamil prayers. i for one llike priests from all communities. i for one like female priests. i for one, am not frightened of the future.

your tone is one of fear and about a year ago, there were a group of people who carried on similar propaganda for rss here. in the process we lost some valuable members.

i see from the responses, you seem to have stuck a chord among the respected members here.

there are two things i wish to say

- establish your bonafide. who you are. what are your antecedents. where you come from. and whether you belong to vhp, rss, bjp or any other socio political organization

- come up with cogent facts and not statements to whip up hysteria. at the end of your document, the ordinary reader will be left feeling angry, upset and above all indignant, as i suspect that is exactly what you wish to do.

these types of documents, cloaked in our ancient glory, the loss of it, and blaming everyone else around for such supposed abject condition of our community, are ill winds that bring no good use to any.

the best of our TB tradition, i always believe, is one of peace and erudition.

i accept the fact, that times are changing fast, and along with, are the even faster changing mores and ways of life.

as a community, i think, we have adapted to the change remarkably well. today's successes, whether we like it or not, is judged by how high one moves in the corporate world.

that is where we have focussed. we have moved away from politics, which was a chief avenue during independence.

we found our own village not large enough to accommodate our ambitions. we moved to north india, and the neighbouring countries. then we moved to the rest of the world. i have not met many who wish to come back to their villages.

the fact that other communities are doing what we did, shows that we are doing something right.

of late, villification of gandhi from the right appears to be accepted among certain groups. sir, no matter what anyone may say, outside of india, he is considered a saint. to compare him versus supposed centuries of brahmin erudition is not even is to prove what?

finally, after all this tirade, what is your plan of action?

i wish to caution folks, this article is, i think, an excerpt from right wing socio religious extremist recruitment journals. if that is what you wish to become, so be it.

i do not believe anything constructive will come out of it, except more vitriol and damnation of those who question such methods.

i repeat, let us see the next steps and plan of action.

also, you might want to do the same courtesy that i did for you.. i have two detailed posts, which answers and address point by point your angst. would not mind you replying in the same format.


thank you.

 

[Jamadagneya]

For the EDUCATION of KUMJUPPU and HAPPYHINDU - 1

I am happy if at least 3 or 4 people woke up from my post. Now, HH's objections are the more pointless of the two. KUnjuppu's objections are that of a goat willingly dancing its way to the slaughterhouse. We will look at HH first, and then Kunjuppu.

HH:
1) First thing I said was some things my community suffers from, other people might also suffer; I am interested in my survival first. Just read properly. My point is on the whole no one suffers more than I do.

2) TamilNad invented "reservation" in the 1940s. long before Mandal. Do you know that? Instead of considering just your survival, first consider whether the country is treating you fairly. The US did something much worse than casteism, called racism. Have you heard about Jim Crow laws and murders? Happened in 1965. Can happen in the deep south, today. Absolutely low standards in recruitment have been a rule for 3 decades. Do you know how government office promotions from clerk to officer etc, were done even in the 50s? By GO (govt order) and roster, which said which case must get promotion when. That you are blind to this, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You are just like a sacrificial lamb. Do you know when TamilNad exceeded Mandal limits? In MGR's time itself when the Vanniars set off a bomb, and got 18% for MBCs. Before any one heard of Mandal. US and other countries too have "equal opportunity" laws- but they are not outright quota systems. Helping others is fine. Depriving me, to help others is not fine. How is a poor priest working one shift in, say, Tirukkatupalli or Uttarakosamangai temple, going to pay donation? His son or daughter would have got a merit seat, if not for reservation.

3. I am not talking about "getting elected by weight of numbers". I am talking about being "socially accepted with respect". Kammas make such a small % compared to Kapus in AP. How have Kammas ruled AP for so long? I said a Brahmin must not have to de-Brahminize to get elected. If elected, he should represent ALL people, not just Brahmins.

4. Connemara: I must ask if you understand English. I wanted you to go to the Connemara library and read the archives- about the intellectual, artistic, peony and other cultures of British times. You'll see that Brahmins were better off even under the British, even though they were fighting against him. I didn't say Lord Connemara, for whom the library is named, did anything!

5. Being the community that maintains the Vedas and the liturgy of Hindus, Brahmins DO embody Hinduism. There is no two ways about it. If you take away the Scriptures and Liturgy of any religion- Hinduim, Catholicism and Buddhism, all have such functionaries. You don't have to say you are superior because you preserve Hinduism and others inferior- India was never a theocracy like Europe or the Middle East. But, acknowledge History!!! Once the monastic order was upset by Muslim raids, Buddhism died out in India- because "Those who embody" Buddhism were wiped out. Brahmins in ancient times sacrificed wealth to Vaishyas and power to Kshatriyas, and so were given the "cloth". Wipe out Brahmins today, and Hinduism does die with them. You may not get it, but even the British did. Max Mueller and Monier Williams and their like explicitly learned Sanskrit, to "get to" Brahmins. The West knew if the Brahmins were converted, all other castes would follow. Why do you think they supported people like Raja Ram Mohun Roy or Michael Madusudhan Dutt?! Here you are in the 21st century, unaware of your own history!

As mentioned earlier, I don't care if other communities suffer from some of the ills. I want to save myself first, then come back to save others. Next, weavers in penury, is a result of scientific advancement and obsolescence. It is not the result of state-ordered jingoism against weavers. As combines and tractors become more used, farmer with ploughshare on his shoulder is going to disappear- that is advancement. Tell me, is religion, or Hinduism or culture becoming obsolete anywhere in the world, that we are turning into robots who don't need these? Weavers and Brahmin priests are NOT the same.

6. Examples of govt anti-Brahmin policy?!-- IF you can't open your eyes and ears, no one can help you. Dance your way to the slaughterhouse, you poor lamb! Anyway, to humor you- do you know that the west graduates more PhDs in Sanskrit than India (ie. mainly Europe- US doesn't have many Sanskrit programs). Shameful. Do you know how hard it is to get "research money" for research in Sanskrit or Indian culture for even famous professors? How often grants are withdrawn? I know because I have been involved in such research. Do you know how few fellowships are offered for PhD students? And even then, how few actually receive money to study? And the terrible response they get from state or central govt staff, if they go to press their claims? I am personally paying for two PhD students of Madras University, because the govt won't give them their money. Now, say you are researching in Sharia.. see what a red carpet you get.

7. Egalitarianism and keeping up with the times is fine. Losing your land is fine. Losing your identity is wrong. Dilution and erosion of your heritage is wrong. When dilution and erosion is required and promoted by the state- such as Tamil archanai, blocking of Sanskritic efforts etc, and you are too asleep to wake up.. that is wrong.

8. Understand the meaning of the word Holocaust. Lots of communities, such as the Armenians, Japanese Americans, erstwhile Soviets and others now use the word genocide and holocaust. If you are as defenceless as a Brahmin and won't wake up, why is it not a holocaust?!
You speak of online classes. I am well read in Jewish history. In fact, I have even written an article on some not-well-known Jewish customs that resemble Hindu customs. The Jews you encounter today, are mostly the ones who have lived well in the US. Why must being aware of your status as an oppressed community necessarily LEAD TO BAGGAGE? Why do you make that assumption? Every time the Jewish American Lobby, makes the Senate and Congress bow to their wishes, you can be dead sure that the oneness the lobby gets from its memory of the Holocaust unites them and gives the lobby its strength. Heard of the Indian lobby in the US? It- all of it- is waiting in the lobby of the local Days Inn. America's support of Israel- which, though morally right, is against its own diplomatic interests (due to oil)- is no accident. But, why do you expect every Jew to carry a chip on his shoulder about the Holocaust, every time you meet him "online"? Let me tell you, they stand up to be counted when it matters.

9. The basis I have to say what Brahmins did for 60 centuries-- ie. Brahmins gave India its identity- comes from the fact, that the Rg Vedic Rshis, were all Brahmin. It is with the Rg Veda that India History starts. It was the Brahmin Chanakya who first spoke of India as a nation- until then, as under the British, there were many kingdoms, no nation. Indian culture and religion, Indian science and art, Indian scholarship and cuisine- in fact, almost everything Indian, has provably been invented and/or preserved by Brahmins. The fabric that unites India is this identity. So, if Brahmins have done that for 60 centuries at least, how have they not united the country, given it a common thread and made a Kashmiri feel some commonness with a Keralite?
Before asking questions, go get your history books and learn about yourselves. Then, come back to me.

(Now, some Half-read Macaulayite, Romila Thaparite JNUite needn't teach me about Harappa. Instead, provide evidence to me that Harappa was pre-Vedic or un-Vedic. there is none. And yes, Vishwamitra and others, even Valmiki and Vyasa, MUST be considered Brahmins, in the real sense of the term. I don't consider them Kshatriya or fisherfolk etc, as I go by the Vedic/shastric definition. Didn't Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhva, who were responsible for the Hindu resurgence, each go to Kashmir, to learn and achieve?
And no, just because I am anti-JNU, I don't have to belong to a right-wing organization or support one. I am actually for "Clean" "agenda free" academia like in Europe. Academia became tainted in many universities in the US, under Bush. JNU and Thapar and the others HAVE an agenda- hindu bashing. Get them to lose it first.)

10. No anti-brahminism in Andhra? Do you know that in the election before last, even the relatively less anti-Brahmin TDP ran exactly 1 Brahmin candidate among 300 for the Vidhan Sabha. The Congress, wasn't much better. The next election it worsened. Look at their elected officials. Again, if any Brahmin gets elected, he has to deBrahminize. In the West and North of the country, a Brahmin doesn't have deBrahminize to the extent he has to in TN and AP. GET OFF YOUR ARMCHAIR. Travel in the rural areas- you will see how it resembles the TN situation. For many years, I thought TN was ten times worse; until I started coming into hard evidence, that AP was not much better off. Try hiring priests from rural Andhra for your temples in the US- ask them their stories- you will be shocked.

I thought Kunjuppu had drunk the kool-aid, but good god! What the hell is Happy Hindu smoking?!

Now, Happy Hindu, I have a question for you. Are you a REAL Brahmin or a troll on this site, posting pointless Opposing Views, just to obfuscate the dialog?

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

how to counter brahmin bashing ?

I refer to post 151 by Jamadagneya.

Oh! My God! I feel the heat of the burning fire in his heart.The flowing lava touching every sensitive member. The message is just straight from his heart. It reminds me of my own mental state during my teens .

Yes,I will pause at that.

Will only wailing and weeping bring result and fair space for TBs ( and Brahmins as a whole) ? Can jut one Jamdagneya or a handful of honest and sincere sympathizers be able to achieve betterment of TBs ( again , I may hyphenate –whole Brahmins community) ? If we believe so, it is just Utopian dream, castles in the air.

We need solid progressive actions. We need huge numbers with us in all these steps. We need whole- hearted support from other sympathising and similar suffering communities.. We should also extend our wholehearted support to other similar helpful communities or organizations. Hand-in-Hand only we should move (intra community and inter community).

For any individual , Loyalty and devotion ,and sense of belonging starts at micro level. My home, my village, my district, my state, my country. – On other levels, : my relatives ,my community members, my religion, etc., Loyalty attachments and groupings occur on base of language also.This will manifest and progress as per situations at that particular time and need.
As of now we do not have a magic wand to get result on the spot. It may need tireless perseverance, not by just one individual, but collectively.

Reminds old adage –“United We stand,Divided we fall”.

As a first step why not we use this TB.com? I admit, that some posts are moderated, censored or deleted. It is a disappointment to the persons who posted it.No creative person likes his creation to be destroyed. But…let us take it this way… It is like trimming a flower to make it more attractive : cutting grass to make it more presentable…….
It is a minor sacrifice on their part for the betterment of TBs ( and all Brahmins at a more advanced stage). Are we not hiding dirty linen or other unpresentable items , before our guests arrive?

Let me quote : “Satyam Brooyat,Priyam Brooyaat

Na brooyaat Satyamapriyam..”

( We may utter Truth, We may utter pleasant Truth,
But Let us not utter unpleasant Truth. )

[FONT=&quot](a personal noting : let me concede , I also hide many unpleasant Truths. Inside ,the compressor is hot,but air coming out is cool..no other way…)[/FONT]
….because pain from hearts broken due to harsh words spoken are more severe than pain from broken bones….. and eventually will be counterproductive. Let us not fall into open traps, walking with our eyes wide open…

While agreeing on a heart to heart level with Jamdagneya , and many other well meaning members, as a fellow Tamil Brahmin, I would also like to endorse the moderators,( for reasons of practical sense not to spoil the broth just getting cooked and expected to be a medicine for our community members’ ills.)

I hope you all will agree with me.

An appeal to Sri Venkatramani, Pls do not discontinue or take a break, we need you also. Let moderators do their brief. You may continue to contribute positively. My Kudos to Happyhindu—a sane voice presented logically and to the point- displaying a mature thought and mind.

Greetings.

 

[kunjuppu]

jama,

may i remind you that one of your posts was removed for unsuitability to this forum.

please before going any further, establish your bonafide. happy and myself are long standing honourable members.

i cannot say the same thing of you. let us know who you are, your background. to me, your answers appear to be canned reproductions of right wing groups, which tend to feel that they should utterly destroy their opposition. which appears to be the tone of your posts.

for the other members, i only wish to caution you, that this is the type of whirlwind that leaves behind ill feelings and damages behind, as there is nothing constructive in jama's post. it is all about supposed harm done and destruction of the past, aimed to stirring the basest of insecurities.

your posts are increasingly attacking the person in happy. it looks like i am next.

i am not moderating this thread. the other moderators can handle this as they feel appropriate.

i have asked you several questions in two posts, all answers to issues raised by you.

you have gone more into what i consider rabble rousing, without bothering to answer my queries.

you have used terms which are deragotory like kool aid or smoking. happy hindu is a valued member and not a troll. i request you to apologize for using such words.

i will consider further replies, based on how you answer my queries on the two posts, which i have asked more than once. a silence from me will speak for itself.

also, i will not answer if you tend to attack personally happy hindu or me.. as your current tones appear to go.

it is very rude and counters the norms of decorum and decency. you might want to learn to write politely and brush up your manners before coming back here again to put your imprints.

thank you.

 

[silverfox]

My thoughts

My comments in red. I am sure Shri Jamadagneya will answer your points. Please forgive me; I have my own doubts/questions on what you wrote. I am not speaking for Shri Jamadagneya and these are my personal views.

jama,

thank you for your lengthy answer.

this post looks to me like something lifted out of recruitment poster of right wing organization, with a trend to violence. yours is the initial excerpt, setting the groundwork, to the next stage, which will blame the other groups for our supposed misery, and name them.

then will come the recruiting piece, where the youth will be sacrificed by self serving politico goondas, with their own agenda.

i have given detailed reply to your initial fiery post. you have dismissed in one line as if they are of no consequence.

you have gone all over in your efforts to come up with an emotional harangue, which can bring up anger and frustration in TBs.

let me once again go by your points and i request you to go back to my previous post, and answer me point by point where what is wrong with what i said.

a. it is unfortunate that you do not wish to appreciate the gross inequalities which the caste system imposed. if you want india as a whole to go ahead without a violent social revolution, there needs to be a stake for every group in the life of the country.

there is always a case against reservation and case for meritocracy, whatever it may be. it probably was what tamil nadu was in the 50s and 60s, when TBs were the dominant all over the ruling spectrum and education spectrum of Tamil Nadu.

such things of domination by one community cannot go on forever. in other countries, social revolutions have been violent. here, tamil nadu, due to oncoming better opportunities we have moved on.

I agree.

we cannot blame reservations on our diaspora status. i do not agree with you that reservation has contributed to any decline. we as a community started moving out since 1920s and we have done well for ourselves.
I am not sure if reservation has contributed to any decline. However, as anybody would agree, that this caste system is perpetuated by the Government itself by making reservations by caste instead of need-based. If the govt., is for abolition of castes, let them start at the elementary school level and not ask students their castes.

we sought greener opportunities abroad and in the north to poor paying civil service jobs of tamil nadu. other communities are now following our lead.
He is right about no protection against folks making derogatory statements against Brahmins. In the US, I know I will be protected. Speaking of reservation (reverse), in the USA, some white young man sued and got successful admission in a medical school. He was appealing against the Affirmative Action. The only difference is in the US the whites are in the majority whereas the brahmins are not in India. He is right; in Tamil Nadu, no one is going to come to defend you (the brahmin).

b. it is the same blindness to the changing winds of tamil nadu and our inability to move along with times, that has contributed, i think, to our political eclipse in tamil nadu.

the only and the only ever time, when TBs were at any position of lead in politics was during the indedpendence movement. post independence, the rules changed towards a democratic system, and sir, i think, we simply did not how to play this game. the other communities were cleverer and we could perhaps copy a page or two from their books.

c. again wild accusation re systematic suppression of hinduism etc. sir, if you want to study sanskrit who is stopping you?

d. i do not understand your arguement. it is my feeling that we as a community are prosperous as ever. there are pockets of poverty, which should be addressed from within. richer TB can open up their purses wider to give scholarships for poorer youths. if you look around, there is no dearth of seats for any college admissions. it has become expensive, for everyone.

f. unsubstantiated.
I can attest for this; whenever I visit Chennai I see the blatant discrimination, the harassment and mockery directed against brahmins, in implicit ways. Many don't even want to say they are brahmins.

g. further on, i think, it is simply arrogant to dismiss other groups as worth insignificant compared to a brahmin's 60 century cultural heritage. this is the type of talk that gets you into right wing clubs which plot against the unity and peaceful structure of the country.

I may not agree with Jamadagni; however, I don't see what this has got anything to do with right wing clubs. (whoever they are)

i, for one, like tamil prayers. i for one llike priests from all communities. i for one like female priests. i for one, am not frightened of the future.

I agree with you 100%. But before we proclaim anybody can be a priest, let the govt., address the poverty and alternate means of livelihood for thousands of marginally-living brahmin priests.

your tone is one of fear and about a year ago, there were a group of people who carried on similar propaganda for rss here. in the process we lost some valuable members.

i see from the responses, you seem to have stuck a chord among the respected members here.

there are two things i wish to say

- establish your bonafide. who you are. what are your antecedents. where you come from. and whether you belong to vhp, rss, bjp or any other socio political organization.

Does someone have to belong to those organizations in order to express their feelings or views?

- come up with cogent facts and not statements to whip up hysteria. at the end of your document, the ordinary reader will be left feeling angry, upset and above all indignant, as i suspect that is exactly what you wish to do.

these types of documents, cloaked in our ancient glory, the loss of it, and blaming everyone else around for such supposed abject condition of our community, are ill winds that bring no good use to any.

the best of our TB tradition, i always believe, is one of peace and erudition.

i accept the fact, that times are changing fast, and along with, are the even faster changing mores and ways of life.

as a community, i think, we have adapted to the change remarkably well. today's successes, whether we like it or not, is judged by how high one moves in the corporate world.

that is where we have focussed. we have moved away from politics, which was a chief avenue during independence.

we found our own village not large enough to accommodate our ambitions. we moved to north india, and the neighbouring countries. then we moved to the rest of the world. i have not met many who wish to come back to their villages.

the fact that other communities are doing what we did, shows that we are doing something right.

of late, villification of gandhi from the right appears to be accepted among certain groups. sir, no matter what anyone may say, outside of india, he is considered a saint. to compare him versus supposed centuries of brahmin erudition is not even is to prove what?

Just who ARE these right wing groups? I am ignorant of Indian politics and so this question.

finally, after all this tirade, what is your plan of action?

i wish to caution folks, this article is, i think, an excerpt from right wing socio religious extremist recruitment journals. if that is what you wish to become, so be it.

Again, who are these people? Do they have recruitment journals? Are they even recruiting for a jihad?

i do not believe anything constructive will come out of it, except more vitriol and damnation of those who question such methods.

i repeat, let us see the next steps and plan of action.

also, you might want to do the same courtesy that i did for you.. i have two detailed posts, which answers and address point by point your angst. would not mind you replying in the same format.


thank you.

 

[Jamadagneya]

For the EDUCATION of KUMJUPPU and HAPPYHINDU - 2

Kunjuppu:

You are not understanding what I say properly. You are the one speculating wildly. I have nothing to do with any right-wing group. If anything, I am appalled by the disunity among Brahmins. In the US, where I lived for a long time, every community has to come together to gain its rights. Brahmins despite their adverse situation, like you, are failing to unite and rise up. Rising up, does not mean throwing bombs. It can mean what happens in the west- civil rights lawsuits. Recall that Mandal got delayed for years because of lawsuits. It can also mean Gandhian methods. So, where is the call for violence? I am a survivalist- but unlike you, I am interested in the whole community, not just mine. And if I constantly talk about "getting elected" and representative democracy, how can you foolishly combine that with "violent means" or "right wing orgs"? Btw, it might interest you to learn that I know the chairman of TN RSS/hindu munnani very well, and he hates me because I don't believe in things like hindu supremacy or out-of-india theory, unless they are scientifically proven. my only motivation is civil rights. I am interested in equal rights for all, including me.

I am an academic. I didn't find any logical argument in your earlier post, meriting point-by-point rebuttal. So you didn't get one. You didn't state anything of substance to get one. Get off your armchair- go travel in the read world; learn the art of getting true stories and unbiased histories, then make up your mind. Please cut your ad-hominem crap about whether I went all over or all under. It pains me that while other communities- in India and other countries, all unite, organize and fight for their rights, the Brahmin community remains helpless- the Tamil Brahmin community being the worst offenders of all. People like you, who refuse to be woken up, are the reasons why. Who can save you, if you won't save yourself?

With friends like you, that are deluded and drunk the kool-aid, who needs enemies?

a) Why do you expect me to say sorry for the caste system? Should the sins of the father be visited upon the son? Do modern day whites keep saying sorry to every black in the US? Next, historically, what is the truth about the caste system? What was "made out of it" by the British historians or what is now embellished on that bigoted account, by modern day "historians"? Caste system, was a class system. Show me one nation without a class system in the world? How can the miniscule Brahmin community be solely responsible for the caste system? And tell me, will a wealthy SC or MBC today, marry his son or daughter to a very poor temple priest's child? The wealthy man will be the first to object.

a 2) If you want to heal the caste system- why should only a "quota system" be the solution. Equal opportunity drives for different disenfranchised communities exist all over the world. "Quota system" is not the way. It is okay to "help someone"; it is not okay to "help someone, by stealing my breakfast". GET the difference?!

a 3) Get your history right. Reservation was invented in TN in the 30s and 40s- with admissions and curricula to schools and colleges. LEARN, BEFORE YOU OBJECT!

a 4) If we had full opportunities in TN and in India, why would be move out? There is a Diaspora that is looking for greener pastures- because the homeland is not green. You are forgetting the context and history of India. In the 40s India was newly independent. It had GREAT NEED and USE for a new community of intelligentsia. Then since 1990s it was on the first flush of prosperity. Again, it needed the intelligentsia. Brahmans being the readily available intelligentsia, should have had FAR more rewards in a budding nation- they never got the rewards- nor the right opportunities to serve. This is not the case with the Asian Tigers, that profited from their readily trained communities more quickly. This was something suicidal India did. Not leverage its talent quickly.

a 5) I am pro-meritocracy. You don't understand that I don't consider mere-vegetarianism and punal as being Brahminhood. No, you must be much more.I want quota-system and the social stigma against Brahmins to go, and a true meritocracy to prevail. I don't want any domination, nor do I consider myself so entitled.

b) Other communities were not purged from govt and politics like brahmins were. it doesnt matter whether the brahmin can play the game or not- depends on the individual. First, give us or fair share. make us equal citizens. then it is meritocracy and equal rights.

c) See my response to HappyHindu. You have not tried to research in Indian ethics and history, either a student or a professor, or attend a Vedapatasala as a priest-initiate or as a teacher. You have not tried to run a temple in the US and in IN and found the difference and the issues. I have done many or all of these things. I can speak from experience, not from my armchair. There is so much money that could be given and should be given to preserve Indian culture and "Sanskrit". But do you know how hard it is to get students, and hire professors in the adverse environment? Do you know how few PhD seats are available for this subject statewide? Do you know how much harder it is for the patasalas to survive? For example, do you know about the struggles of the Madras Sanskrit College, or the Sanskrit School near Chinglepet? I have received appeals from so many places, so many people- other than the ones I have sought out, asking me- begging me, to raise money, because I am one of the few ON THE INSIDE that knows the problem. No other country with an ancient culture, spends so little on the preservation of that culture. The buffoons in your armchairs are part of the malaise of the uninformed.

=contd.

 

[Jamadagneya]

Kunjuppu- futher resposnse to is coming: to address the issues in your recent post briefly:

I stand for one thing and one thing only. Civil Rights When I lived in the US, it meant standing up for immigrant rights, for Darfur, for Rwanda, for blacks and hispanics and also for asian-indians and so I served in the ACLU. In India, I stand for "equal rights" for my community before I stand for anything else. I am not ONE of the things you impute to me. That is just your illusion. I have nothing to do with RSS or any such body.

Then, what is WRONG with a right wing group? Right wing means to stand for a strong national identity and national defense. Right-wing economics or free-marketism or laissez-faire is different. So, what is wrong with right wing? What is so correct with pan-nationalism, communism or proletarianism, and the loss of nationhood as the far-left espouses? If the Marxists had had their way, India, China and USSR would have been one large communist bloc. Is that for good or for bad? Depends.

Before you start making any threats or accusations about me- make sure you are free of bigotry yourself. I don't care whether you are a moderator or not. IF this site or any such venture, is to be useful it must a)inform b) empower and c) enfranchise.
Otherwise, you can exchange pleasantries, run a coffee-club and take the nonsense that N. Ram and DMK heap on you daily. IF you want me to pointedly answer you, stop moderating and listen to sane discourse. Get off your collective tuchas.

How does it matter if you are long-standing honorable members here? What have you done of use to Brahmins, than post here? That is REAL honor. When I die, I will leave behind hundreds, if not thousands of Brahmins whose lives I have touched. YOU? What do you think you can say?

This is not being rude; this is being factual. Go on remove posts or whatever. Such self-censorship is not going to help even one poor Brahmin.

What do you mean by there is nothing constructive? Is there nothing to be said about becoming "Aware" and going out and doing something "Real", off your "armchair"?

Don't pass of your ignorance and quisling bigotry as moderation?

If you won't even wake up to the carnage around you, I will say the carnage is richly deserved. This passivity is what happened when Alexander invaded and some states refused to resist. And again when Muslims invaded across the HinduKush. Kashmir, the seat of all Vedic thought, the place where all three Acharyas-Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhvacharya learned the deepest of Vedopanishads, went Muslim.

If one conforms to a set of beliefs that is directly against one's self-interest, that is called drinking the kool-aid. Or "Seeing the light" or whatever.

Tell me, when your brethren are being slaughtered, if not physically, in other ways, you won't wake up, what must I call you?

 

[Jamadagneya]

Educating HappyHindu and Kunjapu - 3

Well, back to the original train:

d) You don't see a dearth, because you don't know where to look. You have given up your identity already- you think material prosperity in a consumerist society is everything- this is dead-against Brahmin ideology. It is against the point of being a Brahmin, and standing for virtue, knowledge, wisdom and piety. Brahmins are called "Vipra" in Sanskrit. What does that mean? He who knows. I see a dearth, because I look in the right places. I try to live life as a true brahmin. I don't think just because I have three cars and a big house, I am prosperous. No, the ones that are well off are NOT opening the purses for the many that aren't. Have you seen sons of priests become farm workers? become truck drivers? I have. Have you wept that you are not able to return them to Vedic study? I have. Frankly, you have lost your Brahmin identity already when you think "getting rich" is good. If getting rich was all it took, when world literacy levels were less than 0.5% centuries ago, why didn't Brahmins all get rich?! Or even try to ?! You are completely forgetting what it means to be a Brahmin. When you look at the situation, WITH your Brahmin identity and see that things are available to you, only when you deBrahminize, that is when you will see the dearth I talk about. Btw, Brahmins were far more prosperous in ancient times. Their learning ensured they never had to stand in line. Every Brahmin was entitled to free food and shelter, wherever he traveled. In return, he was above monetary want- something you are not.

f) IT is not unsubstantiated, just because you type that word! Please go look at the text books from TamilNad school board- how much they are wiped off and how serious academics internationally, don't take school textbooks seriously from TN govt. And I am not speaking about the out-of-India camp. But, what to do children learn from? Only from these textbooks. How many go out and learn the real story? How many buildings and libraries and projects are named after great Brahmin luminaries from no more than 50 years ago, but they dig up insignificant people of little achievement of other castes for this purpose? IF you have read your history impartially, you will see what I mean. But you have not done your homework. Go to Connemara library. Read the history of TamilNad state from the time the British set foot. See how frequently Brahmins figure in it in various roles. Then ask, how is there no mention about our achievements in history today?! Why is the govt and the country silent about my people. It is a virtue to accept your ignorance if you don't know something. Practise it. Even Sankara could accept he didn't know certain things.

g) I am interested in civil rights. True equality. I don't care about right wing clubs or left wing clubs. I care about the systematic assault on Brahmins and Hindu heritage. First of all, you are being jingoistic that "right wing is bad". Who said that? Ram, Romila Thapar and Congress-I, who don't care about Indian culture. Next, I am not interested in defaming other people. I am only interested in getting my fair share. A meritocracy. My forefathers have done a lot of good; so the country should not be silent about that. Prove to me what other communities have done some good and I will respect that. I am for fairness and civil rights. I am for the indolent Tamil Brahmin waking up. In the first place, I made an example of Gandhi. Was he a Brahmin?!

i) Legally and historically, Religion is beyond your likes and dislikes. It doesn't matter whether you like Tamil prayers or I like French prayers. Sanskrit is the only allowed liturgical language of Hinduism as Latin and Arabic are for others. If you don't like Sanskrit temple services, please form your own religion, or denomination within Hinduim. Don't bowdlerize mainstream and original Hinduism with your likes. Same goes for women as priests. I explained this in another thread already. I may not be a misogynist. But, to believe in a religion, I have to believe it fully, 100% and unquestioningly. Not question what I don't like, not pick and choose articles of faith. Next, no religion, including Hinduism has any responsibility to explain every detail to its adherents. It is not science. Science is what we discover. Religion is believed to be the "Way of God" that has been revealed. It is not for you to question it.

For your minor points:
I don't now what happened here one year ago. I know what has been happening to Brahmins from many years ago. Where is the erudition in you? When under threat, Manu onwards, all laws tell even the passive Brahmin to act, for the sake of society. You didn't understand the point I made about Gandhi. In detail: His chief contribution, was creating a pan-Indian identity against the British. Historically, Britain left India because of the beating they took in WWII. They had to give up all their colonies one by one, in the new world order. India was just the largest. But, Gandhi did create or at least foster a nation-wide identity. Brahmins DID DO THIS for thousands of years. It is the Vedas and other scriptures, the customs and the cultures and the learning that has bound India. Not anything else. And these are not of Brahmin making?!

You ask what is my plan of action. This is the difference between you and me. You are on an armchair. I am not. You think I am ranting and venting and after that, will need to act. Not true. I have already done a lot and whether I have money or not, I have poured several crores into Brahmin upliftment in several villages. Some efforts have been paying off- at least on a small scale. As I said, even if I die tomorrow, I will have a legacy. And it won't be some posts on a little website, or the claim of moderating it. If, unlike you, a few people here wake up, then there is something useful done already. That is the point of my posts. If they wake up, they can join me, or join other groups or go out do something on their own- that is good for the whole community, not just themselves. IF even one person does that, that is good enough returns for my posting these posts.

I am not going to tell you who I am; excepting to say a few things. I don't sit on an armchair. I go out and do stuff. I have a semi-public profile. So I am not a total unknown either. And if there are people like you on this site or elsewhere in the world, that won't just wake up, you simply don't deserve any better than the lot in your life. Heaven help you.

 

[Jamadagneya]

For people who think, "what can one person do", what can a "few do"- I will only say this- it depends on who that one person is. Who those few are. Even a few can use the press and mass-media. Use the court system, fight on and make a difference. Weight of numbers may just not be needed.

If the legal system were not so tainted in India and not so dependent on the executive, mere civil litigation would have tossed out the reservation-quota system. Even one person can use the legal system for the benefit of the entire community.

If you think about it, learn how other communities have organized, do your research and your planning even a handful of people can bring social change.

As I said earlier asking for equal rights for Tamil Brahmins is the same as the rioting peasantry during the French Revolution asking for bread and shouting "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity".

 

[Jamadagneya]

For those new to this thread:

My points, lengthy arguments educating HH and Kunjuapu aside, are simply:

a) In modern India, particularly TN, through quota, social stigma and other means, Brahmins are not getting their FAIR share from the state- in education, employment, land or money grants or in getting elected in representative democracy. That is, I am asking for equal civil rights.

b) Tamil Brahmins in particular, and Brahmins in general, must awaken, unite, organize and fight and get this fair share.


People like kunjapu who think Brahmins are fine and doing well, need to learn the history and about the Brahmin identity and then ask themselves if Brahmins are doing fine. Start thinking about underprivileged Brahmins, not just your own stomach. And tell me, if the Republican party of the US, the Tory party of UK and the ruling parties of France and Italy-in such progressive countries- can all be "Right wing", but be considered mainstream, have millions of followers, because they promote a sense of strong national identity, why, is "right wing" a bad word by Kunjuapu and others like him? Is this not self-loathing?

 

[Jamadagneya]

Stop calling Vibhuti, Tiruman, Chandan, Kungumam etc "caste marks". That was a British term. Call them what they are: "sacred marks", "prayer marks", "marks of adoration, devotion" etc. Don't Christians use Holy Ash on Ash Wednesday? Do they call that a caste mark? Don't Pillais, Naidus, Reddys and so many others use Vibhuti or Tiruman or Chandan? If you hear anyone else say such things, correct them too.

---
And kunupu, I am not yet done with you: you think I am "right wing" I fight against some group etc. Can you tell me any group I have identified and blamed so far or asked you to attack? Only people I have accused are Tamil Brahmins who are not united and are spineless or confused and refuse to wake up. Like who? India and TamilNad fail Brahmins through the policies of the govts. These are the enemy. A country and its govt are supposed to help the people, not repress them. When the executive branch fails us, we can a)go to the judiciary or b) go to the legislative branch and change the laws. In india, now it is getting better, but any lawyer will tell you, that a) is not really independent of the executive. For b) we need to raise awareness, organize and fight.

<And no, I don't find any of my posts "deleted" on this site. You are confusing me with somebody else.>

 

[Jamadagneya]

Also, kunjupu, I started laughing when I read your phrase "plot against the unity and peaceful structure of the country". Well, we could have had unity and peaceful structure under the British too. Somehow, our ancestors thought such unity and peace were not worth a loss of self-respect. Right-wing means "strong national identity". So, right-wing groups are plotting in some voodoo-land at destabilizing the country?! Tell me, do you work for Frontline or at Satyamurthi Bhavan?

Your whole point is so far-fetched. If it werent so tragic I would chainmail it as a joke.

If unity and peace means, Brahmins must allow themselves to be stigmatized like now, is such unity and peace preferable? or is Death preferable? Honorable Death or Dishonorable Life?

 

[Jamadagneya]

What is real rationalism, liberalism and progressivism?

Dear Shri. Jamadagneya,

What a hard hitting post? Absolutely brilliant! I concur on most of what you said. Parmacharyal said it beautifully. The materialistic west is now waking up to Eastern spiritualism while we Indians are now hankering after materialistic pursuits. And that was during his times. Now we can only sigh. He was always advising the Brahmins not to forsake their kula dharma and traditions. Who listens now?

Electronic Media and Hindu Sentiments – I
Thamizhchelvan
26 Oct 2009
[Tamil Hindus have noted an increasingly anti-Hindu bias in the electronic media. Recently, a programme telecast by Vijay TV of ‘Star TV’ Group on 11 October, in Tamil, ridiculed the Hindu cultural practice of married women wearing Mangalsutras..

Christian Media House insulting Hindus

As a milestone on this destructive path, Chennai based ‘Vijay TV,’ part of Rupert Murdoch’s media empire (Star TV Group), has been telecasting a programme titled “Neeyaa Naanaa” (You or Me – Tum aur Mein) every Sunday for over two years. It is produced by another Christian production company called Mercury Creations; the CEO is one Antony. The programme is anchored by one Gopinath, also a Christian.

Alas! This is but "rationalism" of Parashakti days again. Anti-Brahminism-redux. Ok, now if we want to westernize, why not all the women who remove mangalsutra, walk around in bikinis during the summer? They won't have the guts to do that; nor will the rationalist crowd, "rationalize" that far. Only widespread education, organization and activism can resolve this.

There is a difference between real rationalism and real progressive thinking and this kind of veiled "hindu bashing". Simple proof- why not have the same discussion about burkha? "Some women remove burkha at work". "Some women find burkha uncomfortable" etc? Does Vijay TV have the guts to show that? The point is, even in the West- yes in UK, US and France that I can attest to personally- FREE SPEECH is different from the freedom to abuse religions and "articles of faith".

I will tell you what real progressive thinking is. I am an ardent Sanskritist, Brahmin advocate etc. But, I also support gay rights and the rights of gays to marry. Why? We move forward as science moves forward. By now, we know that gayness is biological and not a perversion. So, just like we allow tall people and short people, fat people and cross-eyed people to marry, we must allow gays to marry too. Live and let live. What is marriage but the rite of passage of two people to share a life. If two men or two women want to share their lives, without harming others, why stop them? Now, I might be a westernized intellectual, with an eastern education also and say this. But I remember rediff.com asking a Hindu priest some years ago about gay marriage and he simply said " a marriage is for two people to share their love. so, there is no restriction in our marriage ceremony to prevent two gays from marrying". So, even that traditional priest could agree and allow gay marriage.

If any gay couple ask me to officiate at their marriage, as a Brahmin, I would marry them without a second thought. Let's see Viramani or DMK or any rationalist party ever support gay rights and gay marriage. Just like in anuloma and pratiloma or western morgantic marriages, I won't allow religious lineage succession among the children of such marriages- because that is a liturgical subject. But, I will never deny them the right to marry.

Next, I never think punal and vegetarianism or such symbols alone make a Brahmin. A nescient Brahmin is no Brahmin. A Brahmin must merit being called a Brahmin. I won't accept just anybody's claim to being a Brahmin. That is what scripture teaches. So, if an SC or MBC or whoever, comes to me and says, "I have learned so much in the scripture. I want to learn more. I live my life purely according to Vedic injunctions. I am a vegetarian and do all anushtanas required of me, and swear to keep anymore that you teach or require of me. Please initiate me. I can't find anyone else." I will certainly sit down as their guru, perform their upanayam, samashraya kramam etc, and take them into the fold. Vedas were meant for the deserving, not to go by way of inheritance.

Tell me, kunjupu, for all your Politically Correct and secularist speech, can you practise as much as I?

 

[sapthajihva]

...

A well phrased, rounded approach with appropriate examples, to the subject of anti brahmin discrimination by Jamadagneya... hats off!!!!

I must say that I refrained from posting as the discussions in this forum were becoming more and more of a light banter, teethering towards anti-brahminism and brahminical practices. Your posts made me to pen this post.

Jamadagneya, your posts are an awakening bolt to all those who seek scapegoats within our community, and search for black holes in our practices.

I have always felt that writing with a purpose is the best way to open a discussion; there are some who just question for the sake of questioning... these are all 'banter' cases.

 

[Jamadagneya]

...

A well phrased, rounded approach with appropriate examples, to the subject of anti brahmin discrimination by Jamadagneya... hats off!!!!

I must say that I refrained from posting as the discussions in this forum were becoming more and more of a light banter, teethering towards anti-brahminism and brahminical practices. Your posts made me to pen this post.

Jamadagneya, your posts are an awakening bolt to all those who seek scapegoats within our community, and search for black holes in our practices.

I have always felt that writing with a purpose is the best way to open a discussion; there are some who just question for the sake of questioning... these are all 'banter' cases.

Thanks are due to you, my friend, and the others who appreciated my posts too. I am glad at least one or two people are listening. All I will tell Brahmins is this:

a) Know your history.

b) Live up to your legacy, by becoming a scholar. (In addition to a western education; i.e. be worthy of being called a Brahmin)

c) Look out for the whole community. Not just yourself.

d) Educate. Organize. Enfranchise. Fight for equal rights.

 

[pannvalan]

May I place the following requests and thoughts before our members?

1. Please be brief in your postings.

2. Use small paragraphs and don't use bold letters. Similarly, using multi-coloured
posts to an unnecessary level is not desirable. Then only, it will be pleasing to the
eyes.

3. People like me are tired of reading a long post with bold letters and often
we run out of patience, before we could read the whole post.

4. Avoid personal references, as members like me are not interested in reading
messages/conversations between two or a very few people, who would like to
dominate the scene.

5. Yes, it is true, Brahmins in Tamilnadu are discriminated against. But, certainly it
does not amount to persecution or holocaust, as described herein.

6. I wish to repeat that in Andhra Pradesh, Brahmins are better off than their
brethren in Tamilnadu.

7. We must be pragmatic in our approach. In general, Brahmins' lifestyles have
undergone drastic changes, whether we like it or not. We can not bring back the
past. Without shedding tears over this, we should think about deriving the best
out of the present situation and then march on.

8. We can fight legally and democratically to retain and win back certain basic rights.
One issue is professional education: for medicine, a brahmin student has to
secure 99.5% cut-off marks to secure a free seat.

9. Another point is reservation in employment. At the entry level and that too
for lower grade posts, reservation is acceptable. But even for internal promotions
and direct recruitment to higher level posts, reservation is unfair and cannot be
accepted.

10. Despite Supreme Court's ruling regarding the pegging of reservation at 50%,
in Tamilnadu, it is at 69%. We are unable to do anything and watching helplessly.
So also is the case with exempting the creamy layer from the purview of reservation.

11. Except very few communities in Tamilnadu like Brahmins, Chettiars and Pillais/
Mudaliars, all others have been included under BCs/OBCs/SCs/STs. Thus, nearly
85% of the population is eligible for reservation. This is quite atrocious.

12. We have so many erudite scholars in all fields. But, there is no unity of purpose
and co-ordinated action in our community.

13. Hindu bashing goes on unchecked. History is distorted to suit the whims and
fancies of the political masters. What we as brahmins and as Hindus have done
so far to check this? Sporadic voices like Vijayan, Subramanyam Swamy,
Gurumoorthy are heard and they are not enough. Our own people do not take
them seriously.

14. The general attitude of the present day's brahmins "Namakken Vambu?" brings
more misery and downfall. Why nobody realises?

15. Migration to other parts of the country and abroad is not the ultimate solution.

16. Those who are settled outside Tamilnadu/abroad also forsake our traditions in the
beilief that they (our unique traditions) are not in conformity with the local culture
and they are outdated and lost their relevance today.

17. I have seen for myself the present generation youth do not know their mother
tongue and they don't feel shy to admit it. Parents also never show interest in
teaching mother tongue to their children.

18. I have been repeatedly telling/writing that language plays a very major role in
one's cultural identity. Without Tamil, how can we be called Tamil Brahmins?

19. If we ourselves show scant respect for our own customs, practices, traditions,
festivals, manners, etiquette, habits, beliefs and values, do we have any moral
right and locus standi to criticise others who belittle us in every conceivable way?

20. We say so many things, but do none.

21. When a person wants to commit suicide, nobody can prevent him and cannot
have a watchful eye on him, always. But, when a community wants to commit
suicide, without even realising that they are on the suicidal path, it can be
prevented, because this degeneration does not take place in one single day.

22. I have noticed personally, even today, in private groups or at an informal level,
a true brahmin commands respect from others. That's the silver lining in the
cloud.

 

[happyhindu]

Jamadagneya,

Thankyou for your education. Responses to your education posts are my last on this thread. Just posting a few views below. Not intended to displease or anger you. Just take them as someone's viewpoints that you need not agree with.

I am happy if at least 3 or 4 people woke up from my post. Now, HH's objections are the more pointless of the two. KUnjuppu's objections are that of a goat willingly dancing its way to the slaughterhouse. We will look at HH first, and then Kunjuppu.

HH:
1) First thing I said was some things my community suffers from, other people might also suffer; I am interested in my survival first. Just read properly. My point is on the whole no one suffers more than I do.

Everyone is interested in their own survival. One's suffering to themselves might look magnified, while those living in equal or worse situations might look acceptable.

2) TamilNad invented "reservation" in the 1940s. long before Mandal. Do you know that? Instead of considering just your survival, first consider whether the country is treating you fairly. The US did something much worse than casteism, called racism. Have you heard about Jim Crow laws and murders? Happened in 1965. Can happen in the deep south, today. Absolutely low standards in recruitment have been a rule for 3 decades. Do you know how government office promotions from clerk to officer etc, were done even in the 50s? By GO (govt order) and roster, which said which case must get promotion when. That you are blind to this, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You are just like a sacrificial lamb. Do you know when TamilNad exceeded Mandal limits? In MGR's time itself when the Vanniars set off a bomb, and got 18% for MBCs. Before any one heard of Mandal. US and other countries too have "equal opportunity" laws- but they are not outright quota systems. Helping others is fine. Depriving me, to help others is not fine. How is a poor priest working one shift in, say, Tirukkatupalli or Uttarakosamangai temple, going to pay donation? His son or daughter would have got a merit seat, if not for reservation.

Again, i repeat its not the brahmins alone that have suffered due to reservations. Its also the poor people of the so-called NB forward castes who cannot afford a donation seat, who are also at the receiving end. I do not support reservations.

In a way, the reservations system has pushed to create a survival game of the fittest. Survivors i think are people who take things in their own hands. A man whose father presently works as a call-taxi driver i know of, got an engineering seat in merit but did not have money for the fees. He took a bank loan, completed his engg studies, worked for 6 years in india, paid off his study loan plus saved money, went to singapore, worked part-time, and completed an mba there and has been employed in a good position. Only thing is that he is in his 30s, and finding it difficult to get a bride now after having worked so hard all his younger years. But then looks like survivors are those who have such initiative and perseverance.

3. I am not talking about "getting elected by weight of numbers". I am talking about being "socially accepted with respect". Kammas make such a small % compared to Kapus in AP. How have Kammas ruled AP for so long? I said a Brahmin must not have to de-Brahminize to get elected. If elected, he should represent ALL people, not just Brahmins.

It is possible kammas were not viewed the same way as say brahmins in tamilnadu in the past. Those leaders possibly reached out and represented everyone in his constituency...as such, telugu people, i think, still are a very cohesive group and despite the internal bickering, i do not think they take things to the extreme...i do not know much about politics, the only thing i notice is that JJ or SV Sekar have not debrahmanized so far.

4. Connemara: I must ask if you understand English. I wanted you to go to the Connemara library and read the archives- about the intellectual, artistic, peony and other cultures of British times. You'll see that Brahmins were better off even under the British, even though they were fighting against him. I didn't say Lord Connemara, for whom the library is named, did anything!

Did i say anything about "Lord Connemara" (!!). You said the library is suppressing hinduism, and i asked you to specify in what way did it do that...and now you ask if i understand english You go on to mention that brahmins were better off under the british. I do not know in what way has connemara suppresed hinduism then..and yep, i am not interested in knowing anymore either.


5. Being the community that maintains the Vedas and the liturgy of Hindus, Brahmins DO embody Hinduism. There is no two ways about it. If you take away the Scriptures and Liturgy of any religion- Hinduim, Catholicism and Buddhism, all have such functionaries. You don't have to say you are superior because you preserve Hinduism and others inferior- India was never a theocracy like Europe or the Middle East. But, acknowledge History!!! Once the monastic order was upset by Muslim raids, Buddhism died out in India- because "Those who embody" Buddhism were wiped out. Brahmins in ancient times sacrificed wealth to Vaishyas and power to Kshatriyas, and so were given the "cloth". Wipe out Brahmins today, and Hinduism does die with them. You may not get it, but even the British did. Max Mueller and Monier Williams and their like explicitly learned Sanskrit, to "get to" Brahmins. The West knew if the Brahmins were converted, all other castes would follow. Why do you think they supported people like Raja Ram Mohun Roy or Michael Madusudhan Dutt?! Here you are in the 21st century, unaware of your own history!

Yes sir, history is not my subject. Its a passing interest that comes and goes. However, i do not agree with you that buddism died out in india bcoz the monastic orders were upset by the muslim raids. Neither do i think brahmins sacrificed wealth and power to vaishyas or others. They earned a living as much as anyone else did.

As mentioned earlier, I don't care if other communities suffer from some of the ills. I want to save myself first, then come back to save others. Next, weavers in penury, is a result of scientific advancement and obsolescence. It is not the result of state-ordered jingoism against weavers. As combines and tractors become more used, farmer with ploughshare on his shoulder is going to disappear- that is advancement. Tell me, is religion, or Hinduism or culture becoming obsolete anywhere in the world, that we are turning into robots who don't need these? Weavers and Brahmin priests are NOT the same.

Their plight of penury is the same. If technology has upset the weaver, then the same technology, such as computers, robotics, advancements in medicine, space research, etc has changed the occupations and the way of life of other people too including present day brahmins.

6. Examples of govt anti-Brahmin policy?!-- IF you can't open your eyes and ears, no one can help you. Dance your way to the slaughterhouse, you poor lamb! Anyway, to humor you- do you know that the west graduates more PhDs in Sanskrit than India (ie. mainly Europe- US doesn't have many Sanskrit programs). Shameful. Do you know how hard it is to get "research money" for research in Sanskrit or Indian culture for even famous professors? How often grants are withdrawn? I know because I have been involved in such research. Do you know how few fellowships are offered for PhD students? And even then, how few actually receive money to study? And the terrible response they get from state or central govt staff, if they go to press their claims? I am personally paying for two PhD students of Madras University, because the govt won't give them their money. Now, say you are researching in Sharia.. see what a red carpet you get.

I do not know how many cash strapped indian universities can afford to have departments in Sanskrit. Or how much PhD studies in Sanskrit is going to help such students in india get a well paying job. This (to me) is similar to boys studying in madrasas. If those boys do not get a job (they study everything in urdu and arabic) then they blame the government for their unemployment.

Obviously, the west has the money, they are well funded and they are able to offer research grants not only to sanskrit studies, but to studies in persian, arabic, greek, etc as well..


7. Egalitarianism and keeping up with the times is fine. Losing your land is fine. Losing your identity is wrong. Dilution and erosion of your heritage is wrong. When dilution and erosion is required and promoted by the state- such as Tamil archanai, blocking of Sanskritic efforts etc, and you are too asleep to wake up.. that is wrong.

yes, (to me) each one should be allowed to pray as one wishes. The govt shd not interfere in which language shd be used.

8. Understand the meaning of the word Holocaust. Lots of communities, such as the Armenians, Japanese Americans, erstwhile Soviets and others now use the word genocide and holocaust. If you are as defenceless as a Brahmin and won't wake up, why is it not a holocaust?!
You speak of online classes. I am well read in Jewish history. In fact, I have even written an article on some not-well-known Jewish customs that resemble Hindu customs. The Jews you encounter today, are mostly the ones who have lived well in the US. Why must being aware of your status as an oppressed community necessarily LEAD TO BAGGAGE? Why do you make that assumption? Every time the Jewish American Lobby, makes the Senate and Congress bow to their wishes, you can be dead sure that the oneness the lobby gets from its memory of the Holocaust unites them and gives the lobby its strength. Heard of the Indian lobby in the US? It- all of it- is waiting in the lobby of the local Days Inn. America's support of Israel- which, though morally right, is against its own diplomatic interests (due to oil)- is no accident. But, why do you expect every Jew to carry a chip on his shoulder about the Holocaust, every time you meet him "online"? Let me tell you, they stand up to be counted when it matters.

As regards this lobbying, i remeber having read some responses from Shri KRS ji in some other thread.

As regards other stuff, it looks more like (to me) as just noise. And nope, i do not think a brahmin is more defenceless than a NB with no political clout. And people who want and get political clout these days (irrespective of caste) i think are not really decent people (except ofcourse when it comes to big business houses that depend on political patronage, the cloak of respectability seems to get worn very well).

9. The basis I have to say what Brahmins did for 60 centuries-- ie. Brahmins gave India its identity- comes from the fact, that the Rg Vedic Rshis, were all Brahmin. It is with the Rg Veda that India History starts. It was the Brahmin Chanakya who first spoke of India as a nation- until then, as under the British, there were many kingdoms, no nation. Indian culture and religion, Indian science and art, Indian scholarship and cuisine- in fact, almost everything Indian, has provably been invented and/or preserved by Brahmins. The fabric that unites India is this identity. So, if Brahmins have done that for 60 centuries at least, how have they not united the country, given it a common thread and made a Kashmiri feel some commonness with a Keralite?
Before asking questions, go get your history books and learn about yourselves. Then, come back to me.

I can dispute this very well. Right from the dating of 60 centuries, to what the term 'brahmin' meant at different point of time. I have been speaking to historians and genetists.

But i find your whole post carrying a lot of angst, seeking redressal for what you think is the right version of history. Its not the post of someone looking for info mining or sharing. So, i leave it at that bcoz i know very well that if i respond to this, it will turn into an angered verbal dispute; and it might anger not only you but other readers as well. Will therefore not be responding to anything you say on this.

(Now, some Half-read Macaulayite, Romila Thaparite JNUite needn't teach me about Harappa. Instead, provide evidence to me that Harappa was pre-Vedic or un-Vedic. there is none. And yes, Vishwamitra and others, even Valmiki and Vyasa, MUST be considered Brahmins, in the real sense of the term. I don't consider them Kshatriya or fisherfolk etc, as I go by the Vedic/shastric definition. Didn't Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhva, who were responsible for the Hindu resurgence, each go to Kashmir, to learn and achieve?
And no, just because I am anti-JNU, I don't have to belong to a right-wing organization or support one. I am actually for "Clean" "agenda free" academia like in Europe. Academia became tainted in many universities in the US, under Bush. JNU and Thapar and the others HAVE an agenda- hindu bashing. Get them to lose it first.)

10. No anti-brahminism in Andhra? Do you know that in the election before last, even the relatively less anti-Brahmin TDP ran exactly 1 Brahmin candidate among 300 for the Vidhan Sabha. The Congress, wasn't much better. The next election it worsened. Look at their elected officials. Again, if any Brahmin gets elected, he has to deBrahminize. In the West and North of the country, a Brahmin doesn't have deBrahminize to the extent he has to in TN and AP. GET OFF YOUR ARMCHAIR. Travel in the rural areas- you will see how it resembles the TN situation. For many years, I thought TN was ten times worse; until I started coming into hard evidence, that AP was not much better off. Try hiring priests from rural Andhra for your temples in the US- ask them their stories- you will be shocked.

To run elections, to become a candiate, one needs money. If tehre was no brahmin candidate, it obviously means 2 things - a) they do not have the money and b) as political novices they know that they cannot survive in a scenario of corruption, rowdyism and competition.

Again, priests from rural andhra are as poor as others from rural areas. I have heard of farmers in the rayalseema region committing sucide due to poverty. One of my classmate's father had committed suicide like that abt 15 years back. Not sure why wud one judge the lack of brahmin candidates in an election or poverty of rural people as anti-brahmanism.

I thought Kunjuppu had drunk the kool-aid, but good god! What the hell is Happy Hindu smoking?!

Now, Happy Hindu, I have a question for you. Are you a REAL Brahmin or a troll on this site, posting pointless Opposing Views, just to obfuscate the dialog?

No i am not a brahmin. What you might consider as 'opposing views' are possibly just an other prespective to look at things from. One need not accept whatever are those "opposing views".

 

[praveen]

Jamadagneya - a lovely replies i must say. some were on the dot and good. but i must say it was long, very long for a tuesday morning read

Brahmins in general, must awaken, unite, organize and fight and get this fair share.

Out of personal experience, over the last year or so i must have seen a lot of people who all have an idea but are not open to a collaborative effort with the others which is sad, cos without the support of others in our community, its a bit tad difficult to move unless one has endless $$$. By others i mean, other sections of the brahmin community..