How to retain our left out community???

[V.Balasubramani]

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In putting forth the ideas, kindly refrain from personal attacks. That will only weaken your message.

Well taken Sir

Sorry if I have offended you and others which is not intended.

 

[tks]

Well taken Sir

Sorry if I have offended you and others which is not intended.

Sri Balasubramani,

Not at all .. I was thinking of other situations. It was not directed at you , but everyone ..

That is why I used your posting as a reference but addressed to all (did not address you by name specifically)

You have been polite and transparent in your posting. Thanks

Regards

 

[sravna]

Well said Shri TKS Ji

 

[auh]

Imo, there is nothing that has been discussed tangentially in this thread. The thread opener himself, apparently, along with others, seems content with caste brahmins only and not varna brahmins (I dont know if ther were separate categories at all). Notwithstanding some tall claims by some who do not address queries specifically but seek to generalize on a macro level as if that was an example in profoundity.

I have nothing more to say in this thread in which I was originally drawn in by the lament of Shri VB against the supposed "BB" !

You can now merrily discuss caste based (read as birth based) strategies and some members can very well "colour" it as "varna".

 

[prasad1]

Sri Balasubramani,

Not at all .. I was thinking of other situations. It was not directed at you , but everyone ..

That is why I used your posting as a reference but addressed to all (did not address you by name specifically)

You have been polite and transparent in your posting. Thanks

Regards

Some are quick to blame others of "personal attack", they do not understand that THEY are is misinterpreting or misunderstand the post.
Point in fact check the following post:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=31217&p=341941#post341941

Nothing was said about anyone in the forum, yet someone took offence and attacked me personally.
Some members have taken a rigid position of Us vs THEM, and that causes friction.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

One cannot help others getting into their usual victim syndrome.

 

[Vaagmi]

Imo, there is nothing that has been discussed tangentially in this thread. The thread opener himself, apparently, along with others, seems content with caste brahmins only and not varna brahmins (I dont know if ther were separate categories at all). Notwithstanding some tall claims by some who do not address queries specifically but seek to generalize on a macro level as if that was an example in profoundity.

I have nothing more to say in this thread in which I was originally drawn in by the lament of Shri VB against the supposed "BB" !

You can now merrily discuss caste based (read as birth based) strategies and some members can very well "colour" it as "varna".

Balan started the thread with a question as to how to retrieve the community
You came in and went on s tangent to ask whether Brahmins will take to kudumies again as prescribed. To a question as to where is it prescribed for Brahmins you never answered keeping it a secret to yourself. Just to wriggle out you gave a link to wiki which had nothing connecting Brahmins exclusively with kudumi.

Now similarly you are blaming everyone else for not agreeing with your wisdom quips. My question still stands. Where is a kudumi prescribed exclusively for a Brahmin? The members would like to get an answer because it was with this question that you derailed the discussion. You said you had several questions and that it was the first question. I wait for an answer and other questions too.

 

[tks]

Imo, there is nothing that has been discussed tangentially in this thread. The thread opener himself, apparently, along with others, seems content with caste brahmins only and not varna brahmins (I dont know if ther were separate categories at all). Notwithstanding some tall claims by some who do not address queries specifically but seek to generalize on a macro level as if that was an example in profoundity.

I have nothing more to say in this thread in which I was originally drawn in by the lament of Shri VB against the supposed "BB" !

You can now merrily discuss caste based (read as birth based) strategies and some members can very well "colour" it as "varna".

I am using the above only as a reference to make a few points.

1. Sri VB did start the thread about Kula Brahmanas and their issues. There is nothing wrong about stating the issues. 'Being content' is projecting own prejudice. He also quoted Kanchi Seers words which was more about Varna Dharma of Brahmanas. Comments in the above show confusion and incomprehension. Often some messages are typed without reading all that is presented first. It is called 'shoot, then aim' type messages.

2. There are no BB - Brahmin Bashers. I would like to replace that with Confused Posts (CP) or confused people. Lot of derailing happens by CP only

3. There is NO birth based category called Varna Brahmins. Our scriptures use the terms such as Brahmana, Shudra etc in variety of contexts. Some context refer to the Sanskrit word Varna and some refer to the Kula (Portuguese word for Kula is caste). In an earlier post # 142 I wanted to share this view that Varna classification is part of nature, Kula by birth is human made. This means if some species were discovered in another planet in another universe that has human like mind, the Varna classification will apply. There is elaborate reasoning for this and in order to not digress further I would refer interested people to the explanations found in Sri Sankara's commentaries.

4. The reason one has to know the difference between these two words (Varna and Kula) while coming to debate here is because this confusion has been the source of lot of problems and even violence in our Hindu society. If someone reads certain verses in Chapter 18 of B. Gita that describes the expectations of Brahmana Varna and Karma, a confused Kula Brahmin or TB will think that even Sri Krishna is extolling virtues as to how wonderful he or she is. This is silly and hence we have to realize that we are born Shudra Varna (babies are Tamasic (sleep, output) and Rajasic (eat,cry)). Most die as Varna Shudra also.

5. Because of this confusion some people of Shudra Kula think that the scripture has condemned them and there are foolish people of other castes that reinforce such thinking. In order to make sure that the term is used in right context, some modern authors started using terms such as guna Brahmana or Varna Bramana etc so that the usage of the term Brahmana is not mistaken to mean birth based Kula Brahmana.

6. Aliens with human mind also can be classified as Varna XXX. What the scriptures such as B. Gita provides is a description of aspiration to live up to Brahmana Varna. If this is not understood our scriptures will be trashed along with trashing the "brahminism" which is favorite topics for CPs in this forum for years.

7. The intent of the thread is to move ahead with objectives stated by few people in this thread.

 

[auh]

Balan started the thread with a question as to how to retrieve the community
You came in and went on s tangent to ask whether Brahmins will take to kudumies again as prescribed.

You may have, perhaps, forgotten to put on your reading glasses. As I said earlier, shri vb started to lament about the so called bb in one of the post, after which I commented while remarking on it. Someone has written about "shoot first and then aim". Perhaps your observation may well fit it!!

To a question as to where is it prescribed for Brahmins you never answered keeping it a secret to yourself. Just to wriggle out you gave a link to wiki which had nothing connecting Brahmins exclusively with kudumi.

I have given whatever I knew about it. A reference from Apasthambar, the age old practice that existed. Your hurt ego has not accepted that.

And mr. shoot first aim second, I have never said that kudumi was exclusive to brahmins. Please do some target practice and post.

Now similarly you are blaming everyone else for not agreeing with your wisdom quips. My question still stands. Where is a kudumi prescribed exclusively for a Brahmin?

Sir, I think your thinking apparatus has become jinxed. Where have I said that kudumi is a brahmin exclusive?

The members would like to get an answer because it was with this question that you derailed the discussion. You said you had several questions and that it was the first question. I wait for an answer and other questions too.

Speak for yourself sir. I can recall a post where you had said that you are a "lone wolf". I will take care of the rest.

 

[auh]

I am using the above only as a reference to make a few points.

Yes, of course. So am I doing the same here.

1. Sri VB did start the thread about Kula Brahmanas and their issues. There is nothing wrong about stating the issues. 'Being content' is projecting own prejudice. He also quoted Kanchi Seers words which was more about Varna Dharma of Brahmanas. Comments in the above show confusion and incomprehension. Often some messages are typed without reading all that is presented first. It is called 'shoot, then aim' type messages.

Anybody is quite capable of typing the above accusation. In short it can be identified with "I am ok, you are not ok". Instead of labelling it with your choicest, you could have tried to speak some logic.

2. There are no BB - Brahmin Bashers. I would like to replace that with Confused Posts (CP) or confused people. Lot of derailing happens by CP only

If anybody says that he is clear, it means he isnt.

3. There is NO birth based category called Varna Brahmins. Our scriptures use the terms such as Brahmana, Shudra etc in variety of contexts. Some context refer to the Sanskrit word Varna and some refer to the Kula (Portuguese word for Kula is caste). In an earlier post # 142 I wanted to share this view that Varna classification is part of nature, Kula by birth is human made. This means if some species were discovered in another planet in another universe that has human like mind, the Varna classification will apply. There is elaborate reasoning for this and in order to not digress further I would refer interested people to the explanations found in Sri Sankara's commentaries.

I have earlier asked you a query, where it seemed that varna according to human nature encounters some practical problems. If you do not want to explain, please do not quote the subject.

4. The reason one has to know the difference between these two words (Varna and Kula) while coming to debate here is because this confusion has been the source of lot of problems and even violence in our Hindu society. If someone reads certain verses in Chapter 18 of B. Gita that describes the expectations of Brahmana Varna and Karma, a confused Kula Brahmin or TB will think that even Sri Krishna is extolling virtues as to how wonderful he or she is. This is silly and hence we have to realize that we are born Shudra Varna (babies are Tamasic (sleep, output) and Rajasic (eat,cry)). Most die as Varna Shudra also.

The siliness of the above assumption would be evident if one were to take it to the acharyas.

5. Because of this confusion some people of Shudra Kula think that the scripture has condemned them and there are foolish people of other castes that reinforce such thinking. In order to make sure that the term is used in right context, some modern authors started using terms such as guna Brahmana or Varna Bramana etc so that the usage of the term Brahmana is not mistaken to mean birth based Kula Brahmana.

Sir, you live in an utopian land where there are clearly identifiable guna varnas. I do not belong there.

6. Aliens with human mind also can be classified as Varna XXX. What the scriptures such as B. Gita provides is a description of aspiration to live up to Brahmana Varna. If this is not understood our scriptures will be trashed along with trashing the "brahminism" which is favorite topics for CPs in this forum for years.

In the Gita, as I mentioned earlier, krishna asks arjuna to do his duty as a kshatriya and fight. Why?

7. The intent of the thread is to move ahead with objectives stated by few people in this thread.

Nobody is holding anybody by the throat.

 

[prasad1]

Sir, I think your thinking apparatus has become jinxed. Where have I said that kudumi is a brahmin exclusive?

Zltan Ibrahimovic of Swedan (soccer) must have been a Brahmin, as he has a kudumi.

The talk of NON-birth based Caste division is purely diversion.
Most of the talk about Brahmin is strictly birth based Caste. If it was about merit based or Guna based, there will be no lamentation. There will no talk of community, no talk of IC & IR marriages etc.
I repeat if you sincerely and honestly introspect you are talking of birth based Caste. The talk of Gotra etc is based on birth. Even the term Brahmin Bashing occurs only when you go against some birth based "brahmin" values.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

But there WAS lamentation even if it was not about "birth-based". For example, when sravna suggested it to be value-based, there was lamentation that brahmins are trying to "appropriate" that value.

I think the fundamental issue is the animosity towards brahmins, I think the people, but some may pretend they are only against the label. It has always been there, with variations in intensity and different players performing that role at different times.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

I think the fundamental issue is the animosity towards brahmins, I think the people, but some may pretend they are only against the label. It has always been there, with variations in intensity and different players performing that role at different times.

Sir, Well said.

While some define this as BB some define this as CP - may be it commensurate with the varations in intensity.

 

[tks]

Some are quick to blame others of "personal attack", they do not understand that THEY are is misinterpreting or misunderstand the post.
Point in fact check the following post:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=31217&p=341941#post341941

Nothing was said about anyone in the forum, yet someone took offence and attacked me personally.
Some members have taken a rigid position of Us vs THEM, and that causes friction.

Sri Prasad, I understand your point.

I hope the thread can go on hopefully with less misunderstanding

 

[tks]

Sir, Well said.

While some define this as BB some define this as CP - may be it commensurate with the varations in intensity.

I think it is best to move forward, not dignifying certain posts with a response.

Some are misinformed, some do not have the right background, some have personal issues based on personal experience, some have deep rooted psychological issues, some may not have the right attitude, some respond without reading what is written, etc - no one will know for sure. But it is not worth wasting time on those posts....

Just a thought

 

[V.Balasubramani]

I think it is best to move forward, not dignifying certain posts with a response.

Some are misinformed, some do not have the right background, some have personal issues based on personal experience, some have deep rooted psychological issues, some may not have the right attitude, some respond without reading what is written, etc - no one will know for sure. But it is not worth wasting time on those posts....

Just a thought

Sir, Agreed.

 

[Vaagmi]

You may have, perhaps, forgotten to put on your reading glasses. As I said earlier, shri vb started to lament about the so called bb in one of the post, after which I commented while remarking on it. Someone has written about "shoot first and then aim". Perhaps your observation may well fit it!!

Your r.glasses require change. They are old by centuries. VB named the thread " how to retain our left out community". That has nothing to do with kudumi. You brought in kudumi in an attempt to dilute the focus of the discussion and the the thread got hijacked. The rest of the blabbering I leave for yourself to contemplate on and correct.

I have given whatever I knew about it. A reference from Apasthambar, the age old practice that existed. Your hurt ego has not accepted that.

Read again my post after changing your reading glasses. Just naming Apasthambar is not equal to a reference to him. Your attempt to hoodwink is pathetic. Please let me know where you have quoted Apasthambar's words. Don't worry about my ego. Please take care of yours which is bleeding.

And mr. shoot first aim second, I have never said that kudumi was exclusive to brahmins. Please do some target practice and post.

That name suits you better. You said "prescribed". I asked where is it prescribed. Give that reference.

Sir, I think your thinking apparatus has become jinxed. Where have I said that kudumi is a brahmin exclusive?

Where is it prescribed for Brahmins?

Speak for yourself sir. I can recall a post where you had said that you are a "lone wolf". I will take care of the rest.

The forum is reading your inconsistent blabbering. I am not suffering it alone.

 

[auh]

But there WAS lamentation even if it was not about "birth-based". For example, when sravna suggested it to be value-based, there was lamentation that brahmins are trying to "appropriate" that value.

I think the fundamental issue is the animosity towards brahmins, I think the people, but some may pretend they are only against the label. It has always been there, with variations in intensity and different players performing that role at different times.

There can never be a clear cut guna manifestation in an individual. Hence the demarcation of someone as a brahmana, kshatriya, vysya and a shudra can have no basis at all.

Hence the objection.

How is varna determined? Could you please explain?

 

[auh]

Your r.glasses require change. They are old by centuries. VB named the thread " how to retain our left out community". That has nothing to do with kudumi. You brought in kudumi in an attempt to dilute the focus of the discussion and the the thread got hijacked. The rest of the blabbering I leave for yourself to contemplate on and correct.

The thread initiator agreed to answer my questions, and hence I asked. Apart from your glasses, you seem to require help in comprehension. You can go and reread until it dawns on you.

Read again my post after changing your reading glasses. Just naming Apasthambar is not equal to a reference to him. Your attempt to hoodwink is pathetic. Please let me know where you have quoted Apasthambar's words. Don't worry about my ego. Please take care of yours which is bleeding.

No, I told you the book name. What else do you want?

That name suits you better. You said "prescribed". I asked where is it prescribed. Give that reference.

You are like "kanni theevu" in thanthi. Never ending ramble of incongruency and stubbornness.

Where is it prescribed for Brahmins?

Ah, so you agree that your earlier query as to exclusivity was a "dummy"?

The forum is reading your inconsistent blabbering. I am not suffering it alone.

But you reciprocate the talent with aplomb.

;D

 

[auh]

Where have I selectively quoted. I have been transparent and am willing to change my stance if you can irrefutably prove the point that:

1) Society, as a norm, accepted brahmanas other than by birth.
2) Birth was/is not the criteria for varna
3) Explain, why characters in epics like ramayana and mahabharatha were not treated otherwise than by birth.
4) The present mutts would be willing to accept this definition and practice it. Otherwise, this could very well fall under the "creative interpretations" that you mentioned earlier.

For those who harbour grandiose intentions of the varna per our scriptures, please answer to the above.

Apart from that if varna is based on guna, please also state clearly as to how a particular guna can be established in an individual. And how and who would ratify it in an individual.

If you cannot prove any of these, but still want to pat your back saying that varna is based on guna, then you are really like "guna". (kamal guna)

 

[auh]

Sir, Agreed.

Wow sir. So what do you mean by community here? Birth based or the exotic "guna" based? People have been taking your name left and right with you having switched on the mute button.

Please clarify.

 

[zebra16]

Where have I selectively quoted. I have been transparent and am willing to change my stance if you can irrefutably prove the point that:

1) Society, as a norm, accepted brahmanas other than by birth.
2) Birth was/is not the criteria for varna
3) Explain, why characters in epics like ramayana and mahabharatha were not treated otherwise than by birth.
4) The present mutts would be willing to accept this definition and practice it. Otherwise, this could very well fall under the "creative interpretations" that you mentioned earlier.

Though you say that are willing to change your stance if one can irrefutably prove the points, in practice you have been dismissive of all quotations as "exceptions", whereas you have not quoted a single scripture which makes it MANDATORY to accept your contention that it was birth-based classification. No one can furnish you "irrefutable evidence" when you are determined to refute any and every evidence adduced to you.

I have given a couple of incidences like vishwAmitrA etc. and I will furnish you one more about karNa as you have been responding to this topic in another thread .

karNa, the sUta-putrA got married to Uruvi, who is a kshatriya princess of Pukeya, born to king vahushA and queen SubhrA. This should show you that inter-jAti marriages were not intransigent.

May be you should read B R Ambedkar's book "Who are the SudrAs" to have a broad idea how this varNA came about.

Your insistence that it should be APPROVED-STAMPED by maTAdhipathis is also unwarranted, as no one took their permission to give up their nitya karmAs or agni kAryams.

 

[sravna]

For those who harbour grandiose intentions of the varna per our scriptures, please answer to the above.

Apart from that if varna is based on guna, please also state clearly as to how a particular guna can be established in an individual. And how and who would ratify it in an individual.

If you cannot prove any of these, but still want to pat your back saying that varna is based on guna, then you are really like "guna". (kamal guna)

Dear Auh,

Guna is based on one's spiritual development. The extent of spiritual development can be ascertained from how far a person is in control of body and mind. Again let me not use labels as it brings in prejudiced thinking. A person has least spiritual development if he is least in control of body and mind. The next level is that the self exercises some control but the mental and physical force is still overwhelming. The next level of spiritual development is when the self exercises good control over the physical but the mental force is overwhelming. Finally the self subsides both the physical and mental force. These four levels may correspond to the levels of spiritual development in a person and was the basis for the varna system.

 

[renuka]

Dear Auh,

Guna is based on one's spiritual development. The extent of spiritual development can be ascertained from how far a person is in control of body and mind. Again let me not use labels as it brings in prejudiced thinking. A person has least spiritual development if he is least in control of body and mind. The next level is that the self exercises some control but the mental and physical force is still overwhelming. The next level of spiritual development is when the self exercises good control over the physical but the mental force is overwhelming. Finally the self subsides both the physical and mental force. These four levels may correspond to the levels of spiritual development in a person and was the basis for the varna system.

Dear Sravna,

This does not have a strong foundation.

Cos if Guna is based on spiritual development that means even identical twins could have different gunas and it would have never led to a birth based classification.

Gotra is also a factor..so it has to be birth base..cos a spiritual development based classification would not need a Gotra...since a Gotra is of utmost importance that shows Varna is verily birth based.

BTW even Vishwamitra case...he did NOT aim to be a Brahmana..he wanted to be a Brahmarishi.

So the Varna Kshatriya and Guna Brahmana theory does not apply here.

Brahmarishis are beyond Gunas and do not identify with Varna anymore.

A person who is spirituality developed is beyond Guna and Varna..a classification of any kind merely denotes still not reached the top yet!

 

[sravna]

Renuka I am talking only about different stages of spiritual development and not about full spiritual development.