How to retain our left out community???

[renuka]

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Dear Sravna,

Lets discuss the Varna system from a genetic point of view.

Ok lets take the Vaagmi Gene theory.

In this theory a person inherits a set of genes that has been conditioned for utmost Sattva expression in its double stranded DNA from generations of exposure to a lifestyle conducive to Sattva Guna not to mention the unbroken line of the Y chromosome Gotra based system from a Saptha Rishi.

Going by this theory therefore every person who is a Varna Brahmana should be having a higher degree of Sattva Guna compared to the rest of the population.

But sometimes this is not always seen cos some Varna Brahmanas too do not adhere to Sattva lifestyle..example a famous TB actor we all know..(I am not judging him but just using him as an example).

So how did this happen?

May be there was a genetic mutation along the line of transmission that led to the Sattva Guna not being able to fully express itself.

But going back to the Vaagmi Gene theory..even IF a Varna Brahmana is not expressing Sattva Guna..it is believed that the dormant state of Sattva is capable of resurrecting itself and at any given time even the most Non Sattva Varna Brahmana can revert to his original Sattva state.

Which translates as even a genetic mutation in a Varna Brahmana has the dormant potential of reverting to its pure Saptha Rishi form.


Therefore Sravna...Varna is birth based.

Spiritual development theory loses out to Vaagmi Gene theory.

This is my Renuka Theory.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Genes do play a major role in passing on the gunas but it is not true that only birth based brahmins are sattvic in nature.

 

[auh]

Though you say that are willing to change your stance if one can irrefutably prove the points, in practice you have been dismissive of all quotations as "exceptions", whereas you have not quoted a single scripture which makes it MANDATORY to accept your contention that it was birth-based classification. No one can furnish you "irrefutable evidence" when you are determined to refute any and every evidence adduced to you.

I have been dismissive because they are not proof of whatever you (or the others) have been claiming. I do not have to quote any scriptural evidence to show that varna was birth based. The case itself, by logic lends to that conclusion:

1) If a varna is not by birth, how is it ascertained and by whom?
2) Was there a mechanism in society to ascertain varnas of babies/children/adults?
3) What was it that was practiced by those that adhered to the scriptures?

Please give honest answers to this query and you would understand the hollowness of "varna".

I have given a couple of incidences like vishwAmitrA etc. and I will furnish you one more about karNa as you have been responding to this topic in another thread .

karNa, the sUta-putrA got married to Uruvi, who is a kshatriya princess of Pukeya, born to king vahushA and queen SubhrA. This should show you that inter-jAti marriages were not intransigent.

Those that were born out of intercaste (or inter varna) marriages were even classified and given separate names like chandala etc. I do not recollect now, but you can find charts on the names of such intercaste offsprings given by the orthodoxy. Pratiloma and anuloma was practiced, and I have not said anything about intercaste or intervarna marriages. Your observation seems out of place here.

Also, from the times of Ramayana and Mahabharatha (about 4000 or 5000 years. The orthodox have a different view of the years) till now, you have got only Vishwamitra to show that he was conferred the brahma rishi status. About karna, I do not agree. Even if I were to allow karna, that makes it two cases in all these years. Which is the exception here?

Your insistence that it should be APPROVED-STAMPED by maTAdhipathis is also unwarranted, as no one took their permission to give up their nitya karmAs or agni kAryams.

Oh, but every brahmin belongs to one or the other matam, and is bound by the mutt head. Whatever the sampradaya is, has been given by those mutt heads, if not now, years ago. Hence, the challenge.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Genes do play a major role in passing on the gunas but it is not true that only birth based brahmins are sattvic in nature.

Dear Sravna,

So at least part of Vaagmi gene theory is right..that Gunas and Genes have some connection.

Actually I do not really take the Sattva guna as a virtue and Rajas or Tamas are anything less or more.

I feel Gunas are more of an expression of lifestyle practices and culture that created an imprint genetically or even environmentally.

Going by that anyone else too who is a Non Brahmin can display Sattva characteristics.

If we do not view anything as virtue or non virtue..we understand theories better.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

So at least part of Vaagmi gene theory is right..that Gunas and Genes have some connection.

Actually I do not really take the Sattva guna as a virtue and Rajas or Tamas are anything less or more.

I feel Gunas are more of an expression of lifestyle practices and culture that created an imprint genetically or even environmentally.

Going by that anyone else too who is a Non Brahmin can display Sattva characteristics.

If we do not view anything as virtue or non virtue..we understand theories better.

Yes Renuka, I agree anyone can display sattva characteristics

 

[GANESH65]

If Varna is birth based as per 'Renuka Theory' how does the following be explained by that:

Sage Vyasa fathered Dhrithrashtra, Pandu & Vidura. The Gunas of all the three were different from one another. Out of the three only Vidura possessed some saatvik Guna although he was born to a made. Which gene did really work here?

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Sravna,

Lets discuss the Varna system from a genetic point of view.

Ok lets take the Vaagmi Gene theory.

In this theory a person inherits a set of genes that has been conditioned for utmost Sattva expression in its double stranded DNA from generations of exposure to a lifestyle conducive to Sattva Guna not to mention the unbroken line of the Y chromosome Gotra based system from a Saptha Rishi.

Going by this theory therefore every person who is a Varna Brahmana should be having a higher degree of Sattva Guna compared to the rest of the population.

But sometimes this is not always seen cos some Varna Brahmanas too do not adhere to Sattva lifestyle..example a famous TB actor we all know..(I am not judging him but just using him as an example).

So how did this happen?

May be there was a genetic mutation along the line of transmission that led to the Sattva Guna not being able to fully express itself.

But going back to the Vaagmi Gene theory..even IF a Varna Brahmana is not expressing Sattva Guna..it is believed that the dormant state of Sattva is capable of resurrecting itself and at any given time even the most Non Sattva Varna Brahmana can revert to his original Sattva state.

Which translates as even a genetic mutation in a Varna Brahmana has the dormant potential of reverting to its pure Saptha Rishi form.


Therefore Sravna...Varna is birth based.

Spiritual development theory loses out to Vaagmi Gene theory.

This is my Renuka Theory.

Renukaji,

Your interpretation of the theory is ok. But I object to your misappropriating the theory to your self and calling it Renuka theory.

Varna is birth based indeed. There is enough scientific evidences for that. I can give the references of atleast three Anthropologists who have worked on this topic in foreign universities. In India no one seems to have paid much attention to this. It is taboo here because we are afraid of the the kind of truths it may reveal.

I would like to make this addition to your understanding of the theory:

1. An individual is made up of sattva, rajo and tamo gunas. It is not as if the emphasis is on being in the satva guna all 24x7. That would not be possible and not meant to be the way/plan of creation. Sattva being a preferred stage for most of the time in 24 hours for brahmana and Rajo and Tamo guna being so for others appears to be the scheme of the creator. Those who are in sattva most of the time realized the benefits of being in that state and actively tried to cultivate that and seek it. Those who were in the other two gunas enjoyed being in them and cultivated it. The environment was sought by them depending on their orientation and over generations this environmental impact had the effect on the genes. All satvik people also have rajo and tamo moments and they fall back to satva naturally and easily without much effort. Thus in course of time it becomes something deliberate (the shuffling between rajo, tamo and sattva moments) for them. Thus when sAtvik individual gets angry, it is deliberate and not losing himself to anger (a rajo guna manifestatiuon). This deliberate anger can be more potent than the losing onseself type of anger. Thus a Chanakya's anger was more potent than the Nanda's anger. Similarly with Tamo moments.

2. Apart from Anthropological research there is another branch of research called the Behavioural Science which also supports this theory. There is a branch of this science called transaction analysis which is taught by Corporate Gurus in Institutes of management. In this theory the human mind is said to exist in three states:- 1. Parent Ego State 2. Child Ego State and 3. Adult Ego state. This theory when developed further leads to the Hindu belief system's sattva, rajo and Tamo gunas theory. Please google and study transaction analysis and then you will understand whatever I say.

This can be taken as the modified Renuka Theory of genes. LOL.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Sravna,

..............clipped...............
Actually I do not really take the Sattva guna as a virtue and Rajas or Tamas are anything less or more.
I feel Gunas are more of an expression of lifestyle practices and culture that created an imprint genetically or even environmentally.
Going by that anyone else too who is a Non Brahmin can display Sattva characteristics.
If we do not view anything as virtue or non virtue..we understand theories better.

Renukaji,

You are right.

There is nothing good or bad about these just like there is nothing good or bad in being in a particular ego state. You need a child ego state to lose yourself in thought and wonderment when you run after a thumbi or when you observe spell bound the antics of a baby monkey or the spider furiously building its nest. Similarly you need the other ego states too for different situations. So it is all part of existence and the scheme of the creator. When you go to the war front or when you are in the bed room without adequate rajo guna you will be a thorough failure. LOL.

Awareness helps in being in command of the gunas instead of being a slave of them. Slavery leads to misery while control leads to happiness immensely.

 

[prasad1]

We have changed........


I think members who come here to write against the trials and tribulations of Bs don’t belong to Tamil Nadu at all and they don’t have any firsthand experience. For them it is all hear say and whatever they read from the print media. They have not experienced the claustrophobic persecution that ‘Bs’ have undergone ever since the Dravidian movement took shape in Tamil Nadu.

Do they spare some time to think as to

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly gave up their hair style Kudumi (tuft)?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly started to change their attire from Panchakatcham?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly stopped the practice of applying ethnic mark on their forehead?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly started to grow mustache?

Why they changed their dialect which there were used to for generations?

Why these ‘Bs’ suddenly stopped to identify themselves as ‘Bs’ among others?

Only Bs in Tamil Nadu who tasted the bitter experience under the rule of the Dravidian Parties can able to narrate their agony which has some authenticity and there are few who have absolutely no idea about Tamil Brahmins but come here just to rant for passion sake. Undoubtedly one may feel that they are ignorant of the impact of Dravidian culture on TBs.

Was this lamentations of the thread starters for Guna Brahmin or Caste (KUla) Brahmin?

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Was this lamentations of the thread starters for Guna Brahmin or Caste (KUla) Brahmin?

What do you mean by Guna Brahmin or Caste (Kula Brahmin? Why omit Varna...? Jathi.......?, etc

Explain in detail with illustrations and with supporting material evidences.

I expect your answer.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Wow sir. So what do you mean by community here? Birth based or the exotic "guna" based? People have been taking your name left and right with you having switched on the mute button.

Please clarify.

Auh Ji,

Do you have answers to my questions in Posting No.1 ??

Myself and other members are perhaps waiting for 10 days and it is going to be more than 260 postings.........

How long the wait will be....?

This thead seems to be again hijacked to topics touching from 'Kudumi' to now Kula, Guna, Varna, Jathi, etc

I am just exploring the feasibility of steering this thread safely to achieve its desired goal.

And I have a senior member here coming often and asking for 'Solutions' like that of 'Quick-fix' available in Hardware stores.

P.S: BTW what is the difference between 'listening mood' and 'mute mode'?

 

[prasad1]

What do you mean by Guna Brahmin or Caste (Kula Brahmin? Why omit Varna...? Jathi.......?, etc

Explain in detail with illustrations and with supporting material evidences.

I expect your answer.

My post was the question, you did not answer it. I know the answer but I wanted your version first.
A guna Brahmin will not lament the loss of community.
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TD]Warren Buffett[/TD]
[TD]$30.7 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Healthcare, extreme poverty, education, access to information technology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bill Gates[/TD]
[TD]$29.0 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Healthcare, education, AIDS-prevention, sanitation[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Li Ka-shing[/TD]
[TD]$10 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Education, healthcare[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chuck Feeney[/TD]
[TD]$6.2 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Healthcare, youth, ageing, poverty, human rights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]George Soros[/TD]
[TD]$6 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Health care, anti-Fascist publications, human rights, economic, legal, and social reform[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal[/TD]
[TD]$3.5 billion[SUP][14][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Foster cultural understanding, develop communities, empower women, enable youth, provide vital disaster relief and create a more tolerant and accepting world[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Azim Premji[/TD]
[TD]$2.3 billion[SUP][15][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Education, healthcare[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Howard Hughes[/TD]
[TD]$1.56 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Healthcare[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Are probably guna Brahmins, they are not Brahmins by birth. They do not lament the loss of Kudumi.
Except for Guna Brahmins all other categories of Brahmin is by birth.

 

[renuka]

Renukaji,

Your interpretation of the theory is ok. But I object to your misappropriating the theory to your self and calling it Renuka theory.

.

Sorry...that was not my intent...my last line was meant to be a joke..but I feel I can call my interpretation of the Vaagmi Gene Theory as a Bhashyam!LOL

 

[renuka]

. or when you are in the bed room without adequate rajo guna you will be a thorough failure. LOL.

Yes...I can understand from the male point of view.. Rajoguna is needed but for a female even Tamoguna of playing dead itself can bring Ananda!LOL

 

[V.Balasubramani]

My post was the question, you did not answer it. I know the answer but I wanted your version first.
A guna Brahmin will not lament the loss of community.
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TD]Warren Buffett[/TD]
[TD]$30.7 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Healthcare, extreme poverty, education, access to information technology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bill Gates[/TD]
[TD]$29.0 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Healthcare, education, AIDS-prevention, sanitation[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Li Ka-shing[/TD]
[TD]$10 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Education, healthcare[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chuck Feeney[/TD]
[TD]$6.2 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Healthcare, youth, ageing, poverty, human rights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]George Soros[/TD]
[TD]$6 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Health care, anti-Fascist publications, human rights, economic, legal, and social reform[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal[/TD]
[TD]$3.5 billion[SUP][14][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Foster cultural understanding, develop communities, empower women, enable youth, provide vital disaster relief and create a more tolerant and accepting world[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Azim Premji[/TD]
[TD]$2.3 billion[SUP][15][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Education, healthcare[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Howard Hughes[/TD]
[TD]$1.56 billion[SUP][citation needed][/SUP][/TD]
[TD]Healthcare[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Are probably guna Brahmins, they are not Brahmins by birth. They do not lament the loss of Kudumi.
Except for Guna Brahmins all other categories of Brahmin is by birth.

Thanks for your judgement declaring above members as Guna Brahmins. BTW why this 'probably....???' So, you are not sure about it.


Since you said, you know the answer, I thought that you will certainly quote Dharma Shastras/scriptures to convince me.

It appears you seems to be having more wisdom on subjects touchig Guna Brahmin and Brahmins by birth.

Good to have such members who know a lot but don't write a bit. lol

 

[Vaagmi]

Sorry...that was not my intent...my last line was meant to be a joke..but I feel I can call my interpretation of the Vaagmi Gene Theory as a Bhashyam!LOL

Take it easy.

Future generations of the virtual world will build a virtual temple for the bhashyakari and worship Renuka. LOL.

 

[yesmohan]

Brahman is by birth or by Guna ?
It is an intriguing / a stimulating question.

In this connection an interesting passage by Apasthamba Maharishi, which may throw some light.

Apasthamba (Maharishi of the Apasthamba Sutra), in his “Samayacharika” declares distinctly that there are four

Varnas, the Brahmana, the Kshatriya, the Vaisya,the Sudra, but that the initiatory rites, the Upanayana in particular,

are only intended for the three first classes. The same is implied, no doubt, in the other Sutras, which give the rules

as to the proper time when a young Brahman, a young Kshatriya, or a young Vaisya should be apprenticed with their

spiritual tutors, but never say at what age this or similar ceremonies should be performed for one not belonging to

these three Varnas. Yet they never exclude the Shudra expressly, nor do they represent him as a born slave or client of other castes.

Inthe Dharma – sutrasthe social degradation of the Sudra is as great as in the later books, and the same crime, if committed by a Brahman and Sudra, is viewed with very different punishments. Thus, if a member of the three Varnas commits adultery with the wife of the Sudra, he is to be banished; If Sudra commitsadultery with the wife of a member of the three Varnas, he is to be executed. Ifa Sudra abuses an honestmember of the three Varnas,his tongue is to be cut out.He is to be flogged for not keeping at arespectful distance.

For murder, theft, pillage the Sudra is executed; the Brahman, if caught on the same offences, is only deprived of his eye-sight. This is he same iniquities of law, which we find in he later Law-books.

But although the distinction between the Sudras and the other Varnas is so sharply drawn by Apasthamba , he admits that a Sudra, if he obeys the law, may be born again as a Vaisya, the Vaisya as a Kshatriya and the Kshatriya as a Brahman; and the Brahman , if he disregards the law, will be born again as a a Kshatriya, the a Kshatriya as a Vaisya and the Vaisya as a Sudra.


It might be supposed that the Dharma-sutras formed merely an appendix to the
Srauta and Grihya sutras, and they should be classed with the Parisishta literature.

 

[prasad1]

No one is fooled by all these pretensions of so called Guna Brahmin. Everyone knows the intent of the original post was and others post in the similar vein are about Tamil Brahmins Caste by birth, that too living in Tamil Nadu (for purity).

They still play this charade of Guna Brahmin, for which there is no test.

 

[RMK]

Sir, First the society needs to understand one thing; In other states, Purushartha (Aram/porul/Inbam/Veedu) is a hindu ideology whereas in Tamil nadu it is Tamil ideology; Before 1500 years, there were only two languages mainly in India with grammar, Tamil and sanskrit; Hindi is nothing but raped sanskrit due to cultural invasions; But it is the tamil which protected sanskrit; Tamil absorbed the cultural invasions and protected sanskrit in south India; but after the birth of telugu, it got changed;basically the so called dravidian politics is nothing but idea of telugu speaking kshatriya TN people (This dravidian politics itself is a cold war between telugu kshatriyas and tamil kshatriyas but both annihilate brahmins); For them, hindi is a fourth language; Hence by stimulating tamil feelings, they achieved by not bringing hindi education, which eventually, helped some politicians here to oppose sanskrit too;First thing brahmins need to do is, they should propagate atleast themselves first, that purusharthas are the seeds of the culture of this country which integrates all. Once we understand that we can explain all the concepts of hinduism.
1.Guna Brahmin - It could be from the definition of Lord Krishna - Chatur varnam maya srishtam guna karma vibaagacha;Lord has not included birth.
2.Kula Brahmin - It could be from parasara dharmam (which is the dharma smiriti for kaliyuga) - a person who is born for a brahmin man and brahmin woman is a brahmin.
3.Which we need to consider? Geetha is like constitution; Smiriti is like Act; Constitution will say all are equal; But if you enter a army camp they will say entry restricted; Hence administrative convenience is the key to understand this.
4. Varna/Jati - There are four varnas - Brahmins,Kshatriyas,Vaisyas, Sudras - First three are called dwijas; They need to wear poonool i.e ideally, in a society, people wearing poonool should be majority; but now reverse is the case; Each varna is having aim as establishing one of the purusharthas; Jati/Caste is nothing but a family job that one was carrying on as jeevana sadhanam (Now a days doctors marry doctors and form a jati.) and it belongs to the varna based on which purusharthas that jati is aiming at to establish.

 

[tbs]

hi

i know ONLY BRAHMIN....NOT BY GUNA/BY BIRTH......JANAMANA JAYATE SUDRAHA...SO EVERYBODY BORN WITH SUDRA....

NOBODY IS BRAHMIN BY BIRTH/BY GUNA....ONLY SCHOOL RECORD SAYS THAT BRAHMIN....

 

[tks]

Sri VB, (shortform is easier to type)

I did not mean to put you on spot to answer anything about Varna or anything I introduced into the conversation.

Scriptures like B. Gita is accepted worldwide for its wisdom. Initially people believe in the teaching only to be replaced by understanding after a lot of effort.

I provided citation of B. Gita 4.13 to illustrate a meaning for the word Varna.

Scriptural teaching in B. Gita (and in many other teaching oriented scriptures including in many sub-stories of Maha Bharahta) reaffirms the precise meaning of what Varna is which is based on Karma and Guna (and not by birth) . It is noted here that Bhagavan created the four Varnas, but then he quickly follows that he is a non-doer.

1. If a person a is a believer of B. Gita (as a starting point), then their beliefs has to be squared away with 4.13 verse. If they resist it they do not believe in B.Gita, which is fine.

2. If a person wants to understand this with reason and logic as to why this four Varnas are 'created' then one needs a lot of infrastructure knowledge. If the background does not exist then they have to get the background. I referred to Sri Sankara's commentaries because he puts this entire discussion logically in sure footing. Teaching this properly will take about 20 to 30 hours in my view (I am saying this only to communicate the depth involved to understand all this)

If people claim to believe differently or do not want to put the effort to understand, what they claim from their imaginatons cannot be deemed appropriate for any debate .


Now let us look at Sri Vishanava translations of 3 verses in Chapter 18 of B. Gita. Here is a reference

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-18-40.html

The meanings of Brahmana, Kshatriya and Vaisya are stated as follows. Note that this translation says 'arising out of one's nature' only and not by birth!

A. The actions of a Brahmana arising out of his own nature are serenity, self control, auterity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge of Vedas and wisdom and firm sharddha (often translated as faith)


B. The actions of a Kshatriya born out of his own nature of heroism, exuberance, determination, resourcefulness, without a trace of cowardice in battle, generosity and leadership.




C. The actions of a Vaisya born of his nature are agricluture, cow prtection, and trade. Action of a Sudra born of his nature consists in service to Brahmanas, Kshatiryas, and Vaisyas.

If one tells such Shudra caste (by birth) that B.Gita is one of the greatest works of mankind and then cite the meaning of the above 3 verses, such a person will reject the entire B.Gita and want to become an atheists.

Similarly foolish people through the ages believe the Brahmana caste (by birth) think that they somehow are entitled to be described as above (in item A). To call them fools is not doing justice, they have to be called in Tamil as முட்டாள் !

In India, the entire caste discrimination is based on such people's wrong interpretations. All this arises by confusing the word Varna and its description with a birth based entitlement of a caste. This is Adharma at its core motivated by ignorance.

In Mahabharatha's time, it seems such a confusion did not exist since there are many teaching segments where the distinction of Jaathi or Kula is defined differently compared to Varna.

If the revival of TB culture is about sustaining false notions of unearned superiority (which seem to be the norm among most uninformed Brahmanas) , it is not possible - nature will reject it, which is what is happening today.

Yes, there is evidence of disproportionate amount of contribution to the world by those in Brahmana Kula which could be considered a statistical fact. But this has nothing to do with perceived entitlement due to birth. While a musically oriented families can produce music genius more often than not, attribution of this to some genes is like putting cart in front of the horse.

One will see the cart move and think cart is pulling the horse.

There are many more such incorrect notions that can arise and they all can be dismissed with logic but I dont want to waste time on such discussions.

The only thing I want to state is that the idea of any entitlement by birth and connecting to TB preservation is not workable in nature.

However if the interest is to protect dharma, aspire to live up to Varna Dharma of Brahmana without aggrandizing ego oriented caste ID, then it is workable.

What is needed is to connect how daily Karmas, special Poojas, various ritualistic activities (wedding, upanayanam) etc are connected to enabling one to aspire to live up the expectations of a Brahmana as laid out B. Gita Chapter 18. The objective has to be for the overall welfare of the society.

With education many of the issues of today's TB society will disappear over time.

However we have a few posts bent of filibustering any conversations by injecting wrong ideas or keep getting confused about precise meaning of Jaathi/Kula and Varna. Since, it is an open forum, there will be no closure, given that the content is not moderated.

I think what is needed is to summarize the take-away thoughts, form a small group outside of the forum in India for a more action oriented discussions.

Best,

 

[கால பைரவன்]

If the revival of TB culture is about sustaining false notions of unearned superiority (which seem to be the norm among most uninformed Brahmanas) , it is not possible - nature will reject it, which is what is happening today.

The only thing I want to state is that the idea of any entitlement by birth and connecting to TB preservation is not workable in nature.

However if the interest is to protect dharma, aspire to live up to Varna Dharma of Brahmana without aggrandizing ego oriented caste ID, then it is workable.

Dear TKSji,

I am only responding to this quoted portion of this message.

With due respects, I think you are getting influenced by the non-stop anti-brahmin rantings in this forum. The easiest thing for anyone to do here is to accuse Brahmins of being haughty, feeling superior etc and attribute such motives even if they were to take a simple initiative - such as the one taken by vgane, vaagmi and VB.

You talked about reviving culture. Let's say practising vegetarianism is part of culture. Let's say there is a concern among kula brahmanas that the youngsters in their families are not adhering to it. What is wrong in a few Kula brahmanas trying to come together and finding ways to promote it in their families as a community? Yes, it is a birth-based group trying to promote a value within the group but I do not think it is either illegal or immoral. Will others outside this group who happen to be vegetarians stop being vegetarians because this birth-based grouping has it in its agenda?

I chose vegetarianism as an example because people can easily relate to it. You can extend the argument to nitya karmas, poojas, rituals etc.

I also want to point out a subtle difference. Maybe it is correct to say that no culture is superior over other, but the fact is that different groups choose to follow one culture over the other because each group finds that culture "superior" over others for themselves. Otherwise people won't discriminate one culture from other. So it may be wrong to make a statement "vegetarianism is superior" but it is NOT wrong to say "Group X considers vegetarianism superior for their own group" even if that group is birth based grouping. If anything the workability of preserving a culture works better when people are familiar with it as in a birth based group. I had asked this before. What is the chance of success if you were to try and make an average American shun turkey and become vegetarian even for one Thanksgiving day?

So there is no need to put down people even if the intended group is birth-based group. I feel these remarks such as "unearned superiority", " aggrandizing ego" etc are coming out because of constant propaganda against kula-brahmanas in this forum, neither earned nor deserved.

 

[renuka]

Get real everyone!LOL

Ask yourself sincerely...do you really believe in the Guna Brahmin theory?

I am Non TB myself and I do not buy this Guna Brahmin theory cos I feel it does not make sense cos its almost like a delusion.

Let me give an example...just say an Apple exist..we see it...we hold it and we can eat it..Apple is real for now(Sravna..I am not talking about Advaita here!LOL)

So the Apple is a Kula Apple for it exists for us to enjoy its taste.

Now just say we are seeing a virtual apple or a hologram of an apple.

We can see it...we cant really touch it cos its not solid..any interpretation of its state has to come from past reference to a Real Apple the Kula Apple.

Therefore the virtual apple is a Guna Apple for it has all characteristics of a Kula Apple except that it does not have a solid form.

Without a Kula Apple...the Guna Apple could not have been created in virtual space.

Now..does the Guna Apple the Virtual Apple really exists?(Ok Sravna..now you can talk about Advaita)...

The answer is NO!

Virtual Apple does NOT exist..its a fiction of our imagination.

Impression : Guna Varna does NOT exists.

So be real..get real!

 

[tks]

Dear TKSji,

I am only responding to this quoted portion of this message.

With due respects, I think you are getting influenced by the non-stop anti-brahmin rantings in this forum. The easiest thing for anyone to do here is to accuse Brahmins of being haughty, feeling superior etc and attribute such motives even if they were to take a simple initiative - such as the one taken by vgane, vaagmi and VB.

You talked about reviving culture. Let's say practising vegetarianism is part of culture. Let's say there is a concern among kula brahmanas that the youngsters in their families are not adhering to it. What is wrong in a few Kula brahmanas trying to come together and finding ways to promote it in their families as a community? Yes, it is a birth-based group trying to promote a value within the group but I do not think it is either illegal or immoral. Will others outside this group who happen to be vegetarians stop being vegetarians because this birth-based grouping has it in its agenda?

I chose vegetarianism as an example because people can easily relate to it. You can extend the argument to nitya karmas, poojas, rituals etc.

I also want to point out a subtle difference. Maybe it is correct to say that no culture is superior over other, but the fact is that different groups choose to follow one culture over the other because each group finds that culture "superior" over others for themselves. Otherwise people won't discriminate one culture from other. So it may be wrong to make a statement "vegetarianism is superior" but it is NOT wrong to say "Group X considers vegetarianism superior for their own group" even if that group is birth based grouping. If anything the workability of preserving a culture works better when people are familiar with it as in a birth based group. I had asked this before. What is the chance of success if you were to try and make an average American shun turkey and become vegetarian even for one Thanksgiving day?

So there is no need to put down people even if the intended group is birth-based group. I feel these remarks such as "unearned superiority", " aggrandizing ego" etc are coming out because of constant propaganda against kula-brahmanas in this forum, neither earned nor deserved.

Sri KB,

I read selectively. I have stopped reading rants of any kind. While I do not have anyone in an ignore list (anymore), I usually skip over many posts. If you think I am influenced by anyone here I do not know. If someone is polite with me (or apologized in private if not so) I have no issues with them even if they hold other views.

I have not stated in this thread anything differently in the last 5+ years. Besides the few frequent posters here do not represent the reality in my view.

There is no problem with BB/CP per se if they are straight and have some logic. The ones who are worse are those that try to portray as holier than thou but harbor deep rooted hatred which eek out now and then. In any case I avoid reading such posts if I can do so.


I think what Sri VB or Sri Vgane has written here in such threads are in the best of intent. I support their intent and I was showing my support by drawing attention to scriptural teaching that has been time tested. Such teaching can influence how this preservation can be looked at.

But I notice that there are voices of birth based superiority asserted now and then in such threads. Such people in my view can kill any hope of revival.

If there is a belief that somehow the Brahmin caste has special genes that need to be protected by preventing IC/IR marriages and if the entire saving the community is only to address this, I want to point out that it will not work. This is because the assumption can be shown to be wrong, does not have scriptural support and lacks logical reasons for such a thinking. Besides it will address only the symptoms and will have no lasting result.

Let us take your example of vegetarianism. For someone aspiring to live up to the Varna Dharma of Brahmanas Vegetarianism is essential and not optional. If the milk comes from factory farms even that has to stopped or buy from farms that allow cows to graze

One has to be clear why they want to aspire to follow a given Varna Dharma.

For youngsters to understand this, one has to know the reasons in clear terms.



If someone believes that somehow some one is endowed with special genetic advantage because of birth as a Brahmana, but uses harsh language with others all the time, such a person can never bring about any change. Perhaps a few children in his or her family may listen to the 'preachings' but if given an opportunity many will be influenced by outside factors.


Not sure I really understood all your points well. I tried to read it more than once.

Feeling superiority by birth is an ego aggrandizing thinking and is against the very Varna Dharma of Brahmanas.
Feeling cowardly by birth will sink those aspiring to follow Kshatriya Dharma.

Discrimination will always exist in some form so long we have human minds.
What is needed are few Kshatriya Varna people (but Kula Brahmanas) who can appropriately respond in today's world.


Let me give a personal example: I have acted with enormous force in my career when I have sensed unfair opposition. I did not experience discrimination in my career since I was lucky to work where merit played the predominant role. But politics can interfere with the best of our intent. For larger good , in my view, I have taken on powerful forces. I have done my own dharmic political actions to do, what I view, as the right thing. In these things I was not acting like an aspiring Brahmana but one who learnt to be an effective Kshatriya.

I have found in all these areas that embracing the intent to do the right thing against things I could have gotten away had actually protected my larger interests in the long run.

"Vegetarianism with full understanding is essential for those aspiring to be a Brahamna Varna Dharma" is how I would phrase what you have written.

I have a real story to share in response to one of your other rhetorical question. Many years ago a neighbor's daughter (American, and friends of my children) had long discussions about vegetarianism with me and my children. After many days of talking she completely gave up eating meat, fish and chicken etc. I heard recently after many years that she is a total vegan now. I am not saying it all happened because of our discussion but her Samskara is such that the discussion may have hit home. We had no agenda to make her a vegetarian.

There are many Americans that will not do so and I do not insist on such discussions with them. However if asked I have stated why I am a vegetarian and why we do not consider animal flesh as food. I have not offended anyone to the extent I know.

I did not put down any birth based grouping which is ALL we have in the world.

The Varna classification is but a classification for living up to an ideal in order to uphold Dharma. I am not sure why this is so hard to understand for so many people.

 

[Vaagmi]

If there is a belief that somehow the Brahmin caste has special genes that need to be protected by preventing IC/IR marriages and if the entire saving the community is only to address this, I want to point out that it will not work. This is because the assumption can be shown to be wrong, does not have scriptural support and lacks logical reasons for such a thinking. Besides it will address only the symptoms and will have no lasting result.

Please show proof why it will not work.

The gene bank theory is supported by scientific research. Please disprove that and go ahead with your theory of guna brahmins. Science is otherwise called logic. Till then this guna brahmins theory can at best be a product of wrong understanding of the scriptures.

Genes are post scripture development and so you can not expect references to that in scriptures.

The brahmin community has to be preserved not for rubbing its superior culture/traditions/achievements/life style/maturity etc., on others. It has to be preserved for the welfare of the society in the long run because it is a power house. It is potent. It has the potential to save the society from disaster. There is no selfishness or narrow parochialism that is the driving force of the desire to preserve the community. It requires a mind free from clouds of accumulated prejudices to understand this.

There is a cattle variety which is found only in Kerala. It is called Vechoor Cow. The vechoor cow is found to have some of the best qualities that are needed for survival. It is small in size/and weight wise compared to the giant Jersy and Sindhi breeds. So its fodder requirement to sustain itself is less compared to the other varieties. Most importantly it is disease resistant. It will not fall sick as easily as the other breeds. Its milk quality is better compared to others though its yield is not comparable to the yield of others. The government is taking steps to preserve this breed by creating a gene bank.

Considering the frequent occurrence of brilliance, and considering the handsome,disproportionately large contribution to the society in every field despite being a microscopic community, brahmin community deserves better treatment. Brahmins have to realize this and take steps. Brahmins here are brahmins by birth and all other criteria are just hot air. other criteria are all indeterminate parameters with the present metrics and so birth can only be the yard stick.

Feeling superiority by birth is an ego aggrandizing thinking and is against the very Varna Dharma of Brahmanas.
Feeling cowardly by birth will sink those aspiring to follow Kshatriya Dharma.

This can not be true always. This is like saying, " If you are not with us, you are with them". and following it up with " we will bomb you to the stone ages". Why cant we look at birth based brahmins without immediately thinking and speaking in terms of superior/inferior binary mental conflicts and hatred/exploitation/grievance logic? I am 6' tall and Deng Xiaoping was just two thirds my height. I would just say I was tall. I would also recognize Deng achieved much for the vast China than me for India. There is no intention on my part to belittle Deng when i say I am tall. This business of "ego aggrandizement" is all the result of the success of political forces which have sowed the seeds of hatred/grievances in the psyche of Indians. Victims of such a sustained propoganda that we are, we are unable to get out of this fear and hatred psychology. Without belittling any one I/we can be genuinely proud of my/our achievements. If someone calls it self aggrandizement, I leave it to the members here to judge as to what is the truth.