How Varna/Caste System Harmed Brahmins

[KRS]

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Dear KSR.

My response is in blue, below
Just my preceptions, may be right or wrong.

To me it is both, unmanifest qualities are waiting to be manifested, but ofcourse upon right conditions.
Both the seed and the environments are necessary for the ripening to happen. Both factors are mutually inclusive and not otherwise..
Agreed. The only difference between your argument and mine is that, you are classifying the 'seeds' in to four different types within the overall human genre, while I am saying that there is only one type of 'seed' within the human genre.

I can go in to various real life examples as well as our scriptures to support my theory. You have gone in to our Smrithis especially to support yours. So, this will remain a debatable point.

Appaadi! atleast to this extent you could accept.
But the first sentence "Varna and later Jathis" how you arrive at this ? Just in a light vein.
If you have carefully went through ALL my previous postings, this statement would not have been a surprise to you. There is no 'accepting' something to some 'extent'. My belief is that the Varna system as mentioned in the Vedas does not say anything about it from the gentic point of view. The Upanishads confirm this view.

Both are interwined.
Not really. As I have pointed out, a person is classified according to the Dharma he is born to perform. Not the other way around. 'Merit' exists to perform a particular act, not the other way around.

It is not completely de-railed, still jathi system is in place. There are vedic and agama schools under this system albeit in a very tight situations.
What needed is recognition of the importance of vedic propogation for world welfare.
The prayers in the Vedas are to be recited over and over by as many brahmins as possible for the welfare of the world.- just some sincere commitment to this will turn the table.
Our dharma stands on the tripod , Shruti,Puranas and Smiritis so even though we couldn't reconcile on what is stated, we don't have the authority to dismiss one or the other. (Maha preiva's -In the book "The Vedas" emphasis the holy trinity of the three scriptures.)

What is first needed is the heartware. Then all the otherwares will resolve by itself.
Again, I agree. Brahmins should recite the Vedas for the welfare of the world. But there ends our agreement.

For you, a 'born' Brahmin of today should do it with all other 'Varnas' accepting such a role for 'Brahmins'. They will not. But from the Varna concept, this is meaningless as we have pointed out that the 'Brahmins' as a Varna exist only to do self sacrifice through daily life for the welfare of the 'world' - meaning ALL OTHER VARNAS. If they do not do their dharmas as seperate Varnas, then you are essentially 'secularizing' the role of Brahmins. Then your argument about different Varnas do not make sense.

Unless ALL Varnas go back, to the life outlined, which we can not do, the concept of the original Brahminical Dharma can not be and will not be followed. Even if the 'Brahmins' follow that, they will not be supported. It is that simple.

One's freewill is as effective as one's maturity, his emotional order.

We don't give a child to exercise his/her freewill, there are lot of disciplines we instill, not to arrest the child, but to shape his/her and this continues until certain age he/she grows up to understand what is to be practiced and what is to be not.

So the Vedamada without showing any partiallity to her children instills discipline according to their needs. So that they find everlasting fulfillment.

Unbridled Ichha shakti is similar to "Matham konda kalliru (elephant in heat) ".

If one run life after life feeding one's desires, he will never mature.

Living a life satisfying one's God given talents is not 'feeding one's desires'. Discipline means, a musician should rigorously train to be one, and so on. Yes, perhaps only about 10% of the world population understands what their proclivities are when they are young. But I have seen parents who recognize such talents from young age - I can cite several TB examples from a World Chess Champion to an yester year Tennis Star to Musicians.

To force a person in to an activity that he is not suited for in the name of 'discipline' is the worse Paapam in this world.

Creation of wealth for all? common don't joke.
Why is this a joke? Creation of wealth always increases the size of the total pie, to be shared by those who contribute. It also allows those who are fortunate to take care of the unfortunate.

Is this a statement in a sense of resignment? if so don't worry, be comforted by Tennysons saying "More things are brought by prayers, than the humans dream of" (something to this extent).
I am too amazed at the changes happening in the modern world to be 'resigned'. On the contrary, we are living today, in today's world, with today's ethos and culture. To constantly think that we should go back is holding us back today.

We can move ahead and address our current day's problems with our community, only if we recognize a few things:

1. Ellitism brought about by Casteism is gone. Other Varnas will never accept this anymore (this went out the day we Brahmins started competing for jobs).

2. Unfortunately, our TB community has sects. We should not do anything to not respect the 'traditions' of such sects for the orthodox, but we who wish to be 'progressive' and want change can do so while respecting the traditions.

3. Without such chages, our community will further atrophy.

Now we first put our effort to save our "Dharma", then we will worry about others.

On secularism - broad notion , I just address one point here.

If doing away with religion is secularism, then secularism has no place in our culture, for our culture sees every act is connected to God. So how one can separate state and religion? A blunder to our culture.
'Secularism' as defined in the Indian constitution never envisioned doing away with religion. Secularism in the Indian context to me means that the Government while promoting the majority values, safeguards the minority rights. This is not happening in today''s India.
Just my preceptions, I may be right or wrong.

vanakkathudan
malgova.mango

Pranams,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear vanam9394 Ji,

Is this a general comment or is this pertaining to certain specific discussions ongoing here?

It is hard to follow such a generic comment, which does not help the folks going through this thread, regarding what the meaning of your posting is in response to what.

Please amplify.

Pranams,
KRS

We should rename "BRAHMINS" to "BADMINS". The most crooked people in the world are brahmins of Tamil Nadu. They have such hatred among themselves and they try to pull others legs to get ahead. There is no need for DMK people to eliminate brahmins because brahmins will destroy themselves eventually.

 

[malgova.mango]

More on this.............

Dear KRS,

The only difference between your argument and mine is that, you are classifying the 'seeds' in to four different types within the overall human genre, while I am saying that there is only one type of 'seed' within the human genre.

You said, Brahmana,Kshatriya etc... now you say one seed. Well you can say anything you like, after all you express your likings go ahead.

But, I repeat depending on the klesas of "Jiva" there are 4 seeds or varna of jathis classified in scriptures. For "Jiva" to attain full maturity to understand the subject matter of Upanishad, he is necessarily to be purified of his klesas ,and so he has to commit himself to his svadharma no matter whether it is to his inclination or not for purfication.

Vedanta - starts only after one knows what is proper order and what is not?
That is why the vakya "ATHA DHARMA JIGNAYSA" a prefix used before the Bhashya "Brahma Sutra".

I can go in to various real life examples as well as our scriptures to support my theory.

You mean hypothesis ("theory " is an accepted fact), I suppose. Well you can quote real life examples but please keep this dictum in mind "In any rule exception are to be expected" and "Exceptions doesn't define a rule"


There are 18 Smritis, and all are in agreement that one should stick to his Svadharma based on Jati. Only in some minor details they differ. To say Smritis contradict each other is not applicable to this issue.

Mahapreiva says in the book The Veda...

Kavyas , which are also called Kantha Samhita is in full support of the Smritis. His holiness also quoted Maha Kavi Kalidasa on this. Please read the book.

The Upanishads confirm this view.

The subject matter of Upanishad is entirely different from Purva Mimmamsa part which is the Veda part. The Veda part prepares you to understand the Veda - Anta part. Please don't mix the two together.
(I precieve this is why the role of Guru is very important. Without the aid of a competent Guru, if one reads our scripture , there will be a lot of conflicts. Just my preception may be right or wrong.)

Unless ALL Varnas go back, to the life outlined, which we can not do, the concept of the original Brahminical Dharma can not be and will not be followed. Even if the 'Brahmins' follow that, they will not be supported. It is that simple.

I don't dispute this, that's the tight situation I mentioned. But should we not take the responsiblility that we didn't put the necessary effort in the propogation of Vedas and the result is now telling. Hey! look of the 1180 sakhas given to us by Veda Vyasa not even 1% is in vogue. Please answer.

I'll continue to finish answering your queries , when time permits...

Much thanks for venting your preceptions...

Regards
malgova.mango

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

How varna/caste system harmed Brahmins

Dear sir:

It is quite true, a disturbing fact, that we have lost almost 99.5% of the
saakas identified in the Vishnu Purana.

'Ananta vai veda: ', yes vedas are countless. We cant say that the ancient
rishis have got all the saakas. According to Vishnu purana, we had 1180
saakas belonging to the four vedas. Now, we have 8 saakas in active
anushtanam.

In Rig Veda, out of 21 mentioned in Vishnu purana, we have now in anushtanam
only one - aitareya saaka ( saakala saaka ).

In Sukla yajur, out of 15, we have now 2 - kaanva and madhyanthina saaakas.

In Krishna yajur, out of 94, we have now only one - taittiriya saaka.

In saama, out of 1000, we have now three - Gouthama, Thalavakara
(jaimini ) and Raananeeya saakas.

In Atharva, out of 50, we have now only one - Sounaka saaka.

Thus , out of 1180, we have now 8 only in practical anushtana. Raananeeya
is in some parts of Maharashtra and Sounaka in Gujarat.

I agree that it is our duty to preserve at least these and pass them on to
the successive generations. It is a great relief that these are adequate to
take us to liberation, which is the goal of human life.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

There are an estimated 50 Sakhas now being practiced in India. No one has actually collected this information. For example Gurjara Sakha of Sama Veda is the widely prevalent Sakha in West Bengal. The Paippalada Sakha of Atharva Veda is being practiced in Orissa. I had the opportunity of meeting the pundits and listening to these Sakhas recently.

A Sakha is a theological school that specializes in learning certain Vedic texts chosen from the extensive Vedic corpus. Since these were only by oral tradition by the Guru Shishya Parampara many of them have been lost over the years. But this does not mean loss of Vedic hymns as such since the Sakhas only differed in the arrangement of the hymns. Some of them did have their own texts and interpretations.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

How varna/caste system harmed Brahmins

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyanji,
Thanks for the information on veda saakas. I shall be grateful if you will kindly
let me know the names of the other saakas and the Vedas to which they
belong and where they are now in anushtanam. Thanks and regards.

 

[KRS]

Dear malgova.mango Ji,

My responses are in blue.

Dear KRS,

You said, Brahmana,Kshatriya etc... now you say one seed. Well you can say anything you like, after all you express your likings go ahead.

But, I repeat depending on the klesas of "Jiva" there are 4 seeds or varna of jathis classified in scriptures. For "Jiva" to attain full maturity to understand the subject matter of Upanishad, he is necessarily to be purified of his klesas ,and so he has to commit himself to his svadharma no matter whether it is to his inclination or not for purfication.

Vedanta - starts only after one knows what is proper order and what is not?
That is why the vakya "ATHA DHARMA JIGNAYSA" a prefix used before the Bhashya "Brahma Sutra".

It is not a question of my liking. As I have said, you can never prove the point of people naturally coming in to the world with the four Varna seeds, that too within respective clans! As much as Maha Periaval and some others have said that Varna is by birth, other Hindu mystics and Yogis have said the opposite. So, this point can never be proven by either of us to our liking. That is why, I have said that we agree to disagree and move on.

So as much as you have Smritis that validate your point of view, I can quote relevant portions of Srutis and Smritis to support my point of view.

You mean hypothesis ("theory " is an accepted fact), I suppose. Well you can quote real life examples but please keep this dictum in mind "In any rule exception are to be expected" and "Exceptions doesn't define a rule"

There are 18 Smritis, and all are in agreement that one should stick to his Svadharma based on Jati. Only in some minor details they differ. To say Smritis contradict each other is not applicable to this issue.

Mahapreiva says in the book The Veda...

Kavyas , which are also called Kantha Samhita is in full support of the Smritis. His holiness also quoted Maha Kavi Kalidasa on this. Please read the book.
I said 'Theory' as opposed to 'Law'. A theory is still to be disproved by experments while a Law is universally accepted. In this case, the 'theory' is postulated, because citations to support it from our scriptures are provided. So it is not a 'hypothesis'. One can not keep on saying that there are 'exceptions' to one's theory if the exceptions multiply and overwhelm the foundations of the original theory. Then the theory has to be re-examined and updated or abandoned.

I can only accept something as valid if I find it in the Srutis. While I appreciate the validity of Smritis, I am of the opinion that they were written to apply the principles of Srutis to the life of the respective time periods. I have no problem in appreciating a 'Smartha' would say that what are in all Smritis are True. Yes, but they apply within context to the issues of the decades they were written. I can cite example after example, where certain Smritis themselves have changed over time. This point is indisputable.

The subject matter of Upanishad is entirely different from Purva Mimmamsa part which is the Veda part. The Veda part prepares you to understand the Veda - Anta part. Please don't mix the two together.
(I precieve this is why the role of Guru is very important. Without the aid of a competent Guru, if one reads our scripture , there will be a lot of conflicts. Just my preception may be right or wrong.)

I am sorry, but seems to me that your classification of ALL Vedas as Purva Mimamsa is not correct. I perfectly understand the difference between the Vedas and the Upanishads (I have a Guru). In my opinion, Upanishads are more important for us to understand what the Vedas say, and why they say what they say.

I don't dispute this, that's the tight situation I mentioned. But should we not take the responsiblility that we didn't put the necessary effort in the propogation of Vedas and the result is now telling. Hey! look of the 1180 sakhas given to us by Veda Vyasa not even 1% is in vogue. Please answer.

Both Sri Nacchinarkinyan Ji and Sri N.R. Ranganathan Ji have addressed this above. My argument is not about our scriptures and preserving them. My argument is about the Guna Theory and it's connection to Varnas and the implications thereof.

I'll continue to finish answering your queries , when time permits...

Much thanks for venting your preceptions...

Regards
malgova.mango

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Malgova sir,

I am curious to know how you forget your advise to Sri Saab? Perhaps you are putting your advice to test!

I am reminded of an incident in the Bombay airport a few years ago. There was a pay phone and I put a rupee coin and dialed a local number. The machine did not connect me and also it did not return my rupee. Then a Sardhar came by and he was seen going to the phone booth. I told him that the phone doesn't work and it swallows the money. The gentleman ignored me and went ahead and tried to call putting in a rupee coin. The same fate fell on him and he lost his rupee. Coming out of the booth, he walked straight to me and said: "You are right!"

I am waiting when you are going to tell yourself: "I am right!"

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Ramaa Ji,

I know you intended your response for Sri malgova.mango Ji. But I also went through a very similar experience as your self and let me recount it for the benefit of Sri malgova.mango Ji and the Forum readers.

The setting is very similar except there was a Coke machine instead of a phone booth; there was a burly American instead of a Sardar Ji; and of course there was an American quarter involved instead of an Indian coin.

He put in his Quarter as well, and when the machine did not respond he kicked it. There came tumbling down not only his Coke bottle, but a bunch of Quarters as well. As he took all those, he smiled at me at handed me my Quarter!

Dear Sri Ramaa Ji, we are having a very cordial discussion between myself and Sri malgova.mango Ji. We have very different viewpoints, but that is okay. We are civilized human beings who can agree to disagree. We are not trying to convert each other to other's view points, but rather discussing about why we have such view points based on our understanding. This is Hinduism and discourse as envisioned by our forefathers and practiced by the likes of Adi Shankara (though the quality of discourse based on our understanding of the scriptures may be not at that level).

But this type of civil discourse without emotional outbursts is very important. This is why I presume Sri malgova.mango Ji has taken time to respond to my posting and I also have done so in an earnest effort to respond to him.

By the way, the fruits of our labour are already there, in terms of the responses from Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji and Sri N.R. Rangantahan Ji, who both have brought in additional value added comments to the discussion.

If you want to be a by stander and throw stones, please go ahead. But I would have liked it and the Forum would have benefited more if you have responded with proper explanations to many questions that I have raised that are dangling out there without much logical answers.

Pranams,
KRS

Dear Malgova sir,

I am curious to know how you forget your advise to Sri Saab? Perhaps you are putting your advice to test!

I am reminded of an incident in the Bombay airport a few years ago. There was a pay phone and I put a rupee coin and dialed a local number. The machine did not connect me and also it did not return my rupee. Then a Sardhar came by and he was seen going to the phone booth. I told him that the phone doesn't work and it swallows the money. The gentleman ignored me and went ahead and tried to call putting in a rupee coin. The same fate fell on him and he lost his rupee. Coming out of the booth, he walked straight to me and said: "You are right!"

I am waiting when you are going to tell yourself: "I am right!"

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[vijisesh]

I have a few points to add at this juncture in this salient discussion relating to effective usages of coins in booths,
As many would have known, there is an easy way to use the coin in the Indian phone booths , by fixing the coin to a thread and using it as many times as one desires . This has been clearly demonstrated in one of Bhagyaraj's movies .

Relevance to context of this thread there is definitely an underlying meaning behind this practice of using the coin --> it just indicates that the soul is one and is used 7 times ( Rebirths - janmas ) , in this world . But there is a surprise as the service providers have introduced calling cards and the coin system is out in most parts of the world !
Please don;t hesitate to raise more queries on this critical issue of using coins in booths !

 

[Ramaa]

Oh Vijisesh! I love you and missed you so much! You are the only sane person in the community of clowns! You do make me to come back to this forum which otherwise I would have shunned.

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Ramaa Ji,

Again, let me please ask you not to make general statements from the sidelines about a whole community. Unfortunately what Sri Vijisesh Ji has said in the vein of making the conversation light is only adding to the problem.

Sir, if you have a specific issue with someone, or some folks, please come in and argue and put forth your case with back up material. This sort of emotional stone throwing will not do proper justice to this Forum.

Pranams,
KRS

Oh Vijisesh! I love you and missed you so much! You are the only sane person in the community of clowns! You do make me to come back to this forum which otherwise I would have shunned.

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[malgova.mango]

More preceptions....

Dear KRS,

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Before proceeding any further ,[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Could you elaborate your understanding on character(Guna), action and birth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Is there any connection between them or no connections? If there are connections please elaborate it, if they are not connected please also reason it. If you have already talked about this in a sequential manner previously, please highlight the post.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Could you elaborate your understanding on Smritis? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Upanishads are the most important no on denies that. To realize the goal of Upanishad the vedic system as expounded by Shruti,Smriti and Puranas are also important. The whole Vedic culture is important for the pursuit of Moksha. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you believe in this spirit, “we agree to disagree”, then do you think the contents of this thread initiator are proper? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On your definition of Vedas much thanks, but please pardon me, in a colloquial way by referring to Vedas I used to identify with purva part only. Since Vedanta is called as such. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Since you talked about the realities of today, I replied the realities are the outcome of neglect of our duties. But completely ignoring that, you are saying that is not my arguments etc.,etc.,.. Never mind, but please don't argue with me I'm not competent enough to argue with, on this subject, If I've used the words arguments please accept my apologies. Just venting my preceptions that's all I'm capable of .[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As for your definition of “theory” please visit wikipedia's definiton. But since it is a small thing, I wish not to pursue any further.[/FONT]

vanakathudan

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malgova.mango[/FONT]​

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Rama and Viji,

Nice to see you guys back. Viji my apologies for venting my emotions on you.
Ramaa your contributions on "GORAKSHANAMS" are praiseworthy. Infact, I wrote about this to a newspaper. But all went like a stone thrown in a well. There is no awareness among public on the importance of this. Even Hindus nowadays patronize western fastfoods without thinking of the papams they incur. How to reach them and instill this age old value of "gorakshanam". I know propoganda are good, but how to do when the news media turn deaf ears to that. Any idea?

And "PONGALO PONGAL" for one and all.

vanakathudan
malgova.mango

 

[malgova.mango]

Some more preceptions...

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dear KRS ,[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This is my reply to last parts of one of your previous post ,[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In India, wealth is not distributed simply like what you said . Even if you say it opens up many avenues to earn money for a living. It also raises the inflation so much so that it punish others who are in traditional sectors. And again open trade is not a new value, It is practiced in Vedic culture too. During the reign of Cholas, Pallavas and Cheras it is the norm.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Only Nehruvian government closed the borders fearing competition and his grand son Rajiv opened it. So open trade is not a new thing but made to look like a new thing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In India “unfortunate” gets the Filth distributed by the “fortunate” really. Don't believe! just take a walk in the street you will understand what I mean. Ok you (for eg) drive a car meaning your are wealthy, but you distribute the filth produced by your car to whom the “unfortunate” one walking on the street. Aren't you responsible for damaging his health? Strangely no laws are enacted to contain this menace caused by the “fortunate” to the “unfortunate”. There are many such menaces, which the “fortunate” passes to “unfortunate” which I leave it to your imagination.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The entire corpus of Veda shastra , with 14 Vidyas are for promoting the God given talent in a structured way. Whenever a King ruled abiding to the wisdom of Veda's the arts flourished. The talents springs forth. History is abound with examples for that. We are amazed by the temple architecuture, which incorprates beautiful art-sculptures are standing testimony to that. Kavi 's Kalidasa, Kambar and innumerable Kavis are the product of Vedic culture. So is Natya shastra , yoga shastra , nyaya shastra, Jyotisha shastra , music etc.. The level of mastery in the above arts acheived by Vedic culture is unparalled. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Jati system helped to bring out this mastery by defining the vocation. The Jati system also helped to maintain the law and order without the much use of police force. With Jati system everbody know what his role and what is expected from him and its easy for him to align to the expectations.Please read the benefits of jati system as expounded by Paramacharya. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]All this are achieved, without disturbing the ecological system much, our culture survived 1000's of years. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now ecology is under strain after just some 100's of years of modern culture. For India's metropolis noise , air , river pollutions so far no solutions are applied. Ok what about US, Japan and the developed countries- they say, they are biggest culprits in polluting the world, they are just smart enough to push the pollution to other place. In fact they are very effiecient in “Filth” distribution .[/FONT]

On your explanation of papams... (I've difficulty in pasting your quote)


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]How could you conclude it is not suited for him. Anyway even if you conclude that, yes medicine is bitter, the mother has no choice but to administer for her child and by not administering the medicine , she incurs much more “paapam” . [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In Indian context..[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Current ethos and culture are not sustainable. In terms of ecology, pschycology, law and order the damage is severe. It is imperative atleast now the review the ethos and culture. I don't want to go back or front but I want a society based where members can mature properly to understand the profound truths as given to us by Vedas. In this regard , Ishvara not only manifested the world, he also given a scripture to tell us how to live for this maturation to happen. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Swami Parmarthananda (currently based in Chennai says...)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Just like manufactures give a manual on how to operate the equipment you buy from them. So the Vedas, with Shruti,Smriti, Puranas, Kavyas are manuals given by Ishvara to conduct our lives. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Elitism – has 2 meanings – one is excluvism and another snobbery. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you take the first meaning [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Elitism is inevitable – in current ethos also it is highly practiced , only here money and power replace birth and conduct.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you take the second meaning[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Rishi Ashvalayana also Smriti Kartha, after compiling Dharma Shastra, he said , “what I told is only a little please learn the rest from women and people belonging to 4th Varnas” . That is the spirit. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]But snobbery showed its ugly face and we should take every action to oppose it. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On different sects.. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I quote our Pandit Nehru's quote [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"We want unity not uniformity” Different sects have an advantage they devote to differnet aspects of divinity. In uniformity this is not practically possible.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I got the meaning of secularism from Wikepedia. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Just my preceptions....[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]malgova.mango[/FONT]

 

[vijisesh]

Dear malgova.mango ji,

Thanks for the msg.
I didn't quite recollect the emotional episode that you have quoted.
Being a saggi, I belong to the category of people who can smell out only the postive energy from any msg . So only the outer sugar coat engulfing the content is seen and valued, the substance inside is not so important !
Thanks Sri Rama for your msg too !

I feel that this site is definitely worthwhile to vent out one's views and ideas on different topics, to be on the lighter vein ( as Sri KRS ji mentioned ) , spending some worthy time from the mundane routine, with occassional inputs on our religious front!

And I very much enjoy the exchanges , when it comes to streamlined discussions on principles and ideologies ! Continue the good work!

HAPPY PONGAL TO ALL THE READERS !

Dear Rama and Viji,

Nice to see you guys back. Viji my apologies for venting my emotions on you.
Ramaa your contributions on "GORAKSHANAMS" are praiseworthy. Infact, I wrote about this to a newspaper. But all went like a stone thrown in a well. There is no awareness among public on the importance of this. Even Hindus nowadays patronize western fastfoods without thinking of the papams they incur. How to reach them and instill this age old value of "gorakshanam". I know propoganda are good, but how to do when the news media turn deaf ears to that. Any idea?

And "PONGALO PONGAL" for one and all.

vanakathudan
malgova.mango

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri malgova.mango Ji,

Let me first say that I admire you; because you are willing to put forth your ideas in a very cordial manner, understanding that there may be others in the world from our community who may hold a different view. I was tied up with my work the past few days, hence the late reply. My response is embedded in 'blue' below:

Dear KRS,

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Before proceeding any further ,[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Could you elaborate your understanding on character(Guna), action and birth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Is there any connection between them or no connections? If there are connections please elaborate it, if they are not connected please also reason it. If you have already talked about this in a sequential manner previously, please highlight the post.[/FONT]

I think Gunas makes the world. And for a person, they change during a lifetime (ala, Manickavachagar). One can change the compostion of Gunas in oneself based on what they digest each day. But, a Sattvic predominant Guna does not assure 'salvation'. Because, there is a thing called 'free will'. So, I do not think the 'Vasanas' of a soul necessarily carry to the Guna of the previous life to the next. I also do not think that the karma phala one has accrued over several births can manifest according to one's wishes during the current birth. This is Ishwara's role and as such then one can not connect Guna and Karma to Varna. A person can be born as an animal in the next birth to work off the karma based on Ishwara's design.​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Could you elaborate your understanding on Smritis?[/FONT]

Smrithis are subordinate to the Srutis, because they have evolved as the products to service the needs of people who can not grasp the 'high' ended metaphysical enunciations of the Srutis. But, in doing so, they carry the proclivities of the generations and culture they were written in. This is why all the 'big wigs' in our religion has said that the Srutis take precedence over the Smrithis, in other words, if an edict in Smrithi differs from what is spoken in the Sruti, then the Sruti edict stands as the 'truth'. ​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Upanishads are the most important no on denies that. To realize the goal of Upanishad the vedic system as expounded by Shruti,Smriti and Puranas are also important. The whole Vedic culture is important for the pursuit of Moksha. [/FONT]
Yes, I agree, as long as the above dictum is observed. The Srutis are so Universal, and this is why so many different schools of philosophy (including atheism and materialism) have come about within our religion. Theories have been expounded and followed within the frame work of our Srutis, that straddle the gamut from materialism, atheism, monism, monotheism, and dualism, like no other religion.

This is because our Srutis reveal a 'mystical' truth. And interestingly all the religions in the world (includind Abrahamic religions) are very universal in their mystical truth. So, what we call as Sanatana Dharma is rooted in the mystical tradition of this 'Truth' and this alone is true.

Anything that is not universal and is specific only to different religions is culture based. So, I reject any concept that is not universal within the spirit of ALL religions, and forms of religions in the world. This includes any primitive religion as well as a religion that is evolved (like Hinduism).
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you believe in this spirit, “we agree to disagree”, then do you think the contents of this thread initiator are proper? [/FONT]
Absolutely, YES. I may disagree with Sri Nacchinarkiniyan's views regarding some things. But I would always stand up for his right to cogently present a logical argument irrespective of what it is, against the stone throwers from the sideline.

If our religion is anything, thank GOD, it is not theistic!

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On your definition of Vedas much thanks, but please pardon me, in a colloquial way by referring to Vedas I used to identify with purva part only. Since Vedanta is called as such. [/FONT]
'Purva Mimamsa' is oppsite to 'Vedanta' school. So your definition threw me off. ​

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Since you talked about the realities of today, I replied the realities are the outcome of neglect of our duties. But completely ignoring that, you are saying that is not my arguments etc.,etc.,.. Never mind, but please don't argue with me I'm not competent enough to argue with, on this subject, If I've used the words arguments please accept my apologies. Just venting my preceptions that's all I'm capable of .[/FONT]
I appreciate your thoughts on this. But the crux is 'what are our duties?'. A 'Brahmin's' duty as envisioned within the rubrik of Varna system can never be replicated today. Because it involves other varnas to follow suit. So, then we are discussing about aome folks who follow 50% of the 'duties' versus others who do may be 10% of the duties. This is a 100% game. Who is better? My answer is that for the unity of our community we should say that this 'duty' topic is irrelevant. Times have changed. We can not go back.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As for your definition of “theory” please visit wikipedia's definiton. But since it is a small thing, I wish not to pursue any further.[/FONT]
I was trained to be a scientist - and having visited Wikipedia, i do not see any discrepency with the definition with what I have said.
vanakathudan

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malgova.mango[/FONT]​

Pranams,
KRS

 

[RVenkatraman]

Well I didn’t have much time to go through all the threads, but one can easily guess what could have been discussed all along! I am not sure whether anyone in this thread already have mentioned about this upanishad "Vajrasucikopanishad" Vajra - Diamond, Soochi - needle. It is a vivid upanishad deals with all about guna/varna etc Besides sastra says:

Janmana Jaayathe Sudraha (By birth one is sudra) - Predominantly Taamsik Prikrithi [natured]
Karmana Jaayathe Twijaha (By duty one is twice-born) - Predominantly Rajsik Prikrithi
Brahme idhi vidhihi Braahmanaha (One who realizes the brahman is a Brahmin) Initially Sadvik Prikrithi finally "Nis Trigunyaha:" without any gunas or tranquility!

In that order immediately the person who is catching and filling my thought is Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharish, Maha Periyava and goes on! Anyone can be a Brahmana, provided, One and Only if she/he realizes the Brahman. "The Knower becomes the Known".

Regards
R Venkatraman

 

[malgova.mango]

Reply to KRS

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dear Mr. KRS[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Thanks for letting us know your level of understanding.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On Character , Action and Re-birth [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I couldn't follow your reason and conclusion. I read 3-4 times [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]So are you concluding there are no link or connection between them ? Or otherwise?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you could just stick to my questions or atleast connect to it that will help me.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On Smriti[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Please read all the sub-topics in the site http://www.kamakoti.org/newlayout/template/hindudharma.html/15/1/hindu/Dharmasastra. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Some of the points raised by you in your previous post are neatly addressed there already. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As far your statement “if an edict in Smrithi differs from what is spoken in the Sruti, then the Sruti edict stands as the 'truth'.“ could you give some examples that happened previously and elders of the society used that logic to settle the issue.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On Upanishad[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Your understanding sounds very mystical. What is this “mystical” Truth? could you elaborate on your understanding?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On the spirit of “agree to disagree” [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The content which intiates this thread is not contended in just disagreeing but it went overboard to throw into dustbin of what other's agree. So it doesn't goes well with this spirit of “agree to disagree” again it is just my preception and I don't want your arguments on these. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On Purva Mimamsa[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I'm not at all surprised that you get thrown off, with this level of understanding it is expected. Anyway I do think you bounced back to normal.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On “Duty”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]By Duties , I meant the preservation of Vedas and Yagnas and its propogation are the duties of Brahmanas .[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The question of who is better? Is not relevant here. Because the intention is for atma-shuddi and Loka Kshema everyone can chip their maximum extent. I mean doing Sandhyavandanam and chanting “Hari” nama and seeking a “guru” versed in the parampara,and thereby learning to chant mantras and doing atmavichara at the same time balancing other pursuits of making a living and seeking pleasure is a possible thing even today. It is a question of balance of pursuit , time mangement with the necessary attitude. There is no % game here, to the extent possible is the essence. [/FONT]

For Loka kshema one can patronize Yagyas, give dhanas, entertain guests etc..

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If you say that by doing this are we not contradicting the Smritis- Yes we do, but it is much better than totally turning away from our duties, to say to the extent “duties” are irrelevant. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Smritis as I understood didn't impose any rigid laws , it is open to say that if you wish to have a fulfilled life without disturbing others as much as possible then this is the way it is upto you to follow or not. Smritis allows human freedom and judgement but also warn that, the result is directly proportional to the effect we practise, as simple as that.[/FONT]

Rishi vakyas are "mrudhu" vakyas with the altruistic intention of benefitting one and all.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This sense of “back” as you say in “we don't want to go back” is addressed in my previous reply.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On “Theory” you are a scientist so you could be right. Just curious what is the difference between “Hypothesis” and “theory” . I had a preception that a hypothesis, when proved by experiments becomes a theory. So in my interpretation theory is always equal to a fact. Is that not so.?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]vanakathudan[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]malgova.mango[/FONT]

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Well I didn’t have much time to go through all the threads, but one can easily guess what could have been discussed all along! I am not sure whether anyone in this thread already have mentioned about this upanishad "Vajrasucikopanishad" Vajra - Diamond, Soochi - needle. It is a vivid upanishad deals with all about guna/varna etc Besides sastra says:

Janmana Jaayathe Sudraha (By birth one is sudra) - Predominantly Taamsik Prikrithi [natured]
Karmana Jaayathe Twijaha (By duty one is twice-born) - Predominantly Rajsik Prikrithi
Brahme idhi vidhihi Braahmanaha (One who realizes the brahman is a Brahmin) Initially Sadvik Prikrithi finally "Nis Trigunyaha:" without any gunas or tranquility!

In that order immediately the person who is catching and filling my thought is Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharish, Maha Periyava and goes on! Anyone can be a Brahmana, provided, One and Only if she/he realizes the Brahman. "The Knower becomes the Known".

Regards
R Venkatraman

Thank you, Venkatraman.

Online translation of the Vajrasucikopanishad. A must read for all.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://pages.intnet.mu/ramsurat/Upanishad/Vajrasucikopanishad.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DVajrasucikopanishad%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26hs%3D6lp

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Ramaa,

My reply in blue...

Dear Malgova sir,

I am curious to know how you forget your advise to Sri Saab? Perhaps you are putting your advice to test!

Basically I used this opportunity to just vent my preceptions. I've no expectations (atleast now) to correct anybody's view point. Just use the opportunity to present the LOGIC that's all.

I am reminded of an incident in the Bombay airport a few years ago. There was a pay phone and I put a rupee coin and dialed a local number. The machine did not connect me and also it did not return my rupee. Then a Sardhar came by and he was seen going to the phone booth. I told him that the phone doesn't work and it swallows the money. The gentleman ignored me and went ahead and tried to call putting in a rupee coin. The same fate fell on him and he lost his rupee. Coming out of the booth, he walked straight to me and said: "You are right!"

I am waiting when you are going to tell yourself: "I am right!"

Hope I answered, I just want the present the case of orthodox and I really don't expect anyone to change his views. I 'm more interested in seeing their the logic than their conclusion. This keeps me going. But if the opponent is interested only in his conclusion I always have the choice of not replying.

Mahaperieva is a master in this art. He always present a lot of reasoning before he conclude. We all have to learm a lot from "Him" .

My another request keep contributing.

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri Saab,

This is specific reference to your idea that the Moderator has to approve the posting before it appears in the threads.

No. This is not so.

What happens is the word editor does not accept more than a certain number of words (I think 1000). So if your posting got too long it won't accept it.

It is a feature of the software.

Not a decision of any of the Moderators.

Regards,
Chintana

Dear Sri Ranganathan,

Namaskaram. And thank you for giving me the exerpts from Bhagavan Ramana. He is my Guru. Aum Namo Bhagavathe Sri Ramanaya! His 128th Jayanthi falls on the 25th December this year. Let us all pray for his Grace to be bestowed on us! Actually He has said that the Grace is always there and it is upto us to take it in spoon or in buckets or just plunge into it!

Now I did post something in reply to Sri Tech Sir, however the program wouldn't take it and came the message that a Moderator has to have a look at it! I do think it would be beneficial for those who are interested and so I am going to post in parts, hoping it will appear in the forum. Here I would have to mention that way back in June 2006 one Sri Anbu has written a series of Musings in this forum under the 'Religion' section on page 3 called 'Musings on the Fundamentals of Hinduism' where he has elaborately dealt with the Guna. I recommend our readers to go through these Musings to get a good grasp to follow our discussion. With this preamble let me post again that which did not appear!

Dear Tech Sir,

You have said:

I have been a visitor to this forum for a long time but it is for the first time I ventured into participating in discussions that seem to plunge me headlong!

To me, certain basic ideas have not been clearly understood by most participants as can be discerned from your understanding or disputation of what is a revealation.

Couple of years ago on Sri Anbu has been posting under the 'Religion' segment what he called 'Musings on the Fundamentals of Hinduism' and I think he clearly enunciates the nature of Guna. I urge our fellow readers to read all his musings to gain a good understanding on the play of Guna.

There is an important thing that we have to bear in mind. We Hindus look at the world from the point of view of an eternal individual who keeps reincarnating into this world in different guises according to the endless karmas that he/she has performed. This is our 'home' and we pray for its safety in the famous benediction called 'manthra pushpam' where we repeatedly call out 'aayathanavaan bhavathi' ('aayathanam means abode, so 'aayathanavaan bhavathi' means 'let me be assured of this abode'. The western religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam whose influence pervade our thinking (this is our 'dhOsham'!), looks at the world from the eyes of the individual who is a one time visitor whose permanent abode is either heaven or hell. We, on the other hand, come back to fulfill our unfulfilled ambitions. And then we try something else in eternal pursuit! In Mahabhaaratha the story of 'Sikhandi' tells us the idea of revenge in the mind bringing her back to fight and cause the death of Bheeshma.

If you start looking at the world from the western perspective of enterprise of the individual into this world, which in my opinion is a purely vaisya attitude, you either make a profit or loss and live with it in heaven or hell for ever! The 'free will and destiny' is cast in this regimen. There is no rhyme or reason in this chance based on skill testing question sort of thing!

We on the other hand have the freedom to do what we want and are only affected by the proportionate (not eternal) reward of enjoyment or suffering. Yet our freedom is conditioned by our innate ability, for example if you are so saathwic then you do not even think of violence to others even though it would be considered an option under the free will by westerners. Thus our freedom is real and yet the outcome (destiny) is not uncertain.

As the karmaphala caused the individual to come back, his main purpose of the incarnation is therefore the 'bhOgam' or the enjoyment (or suffering) of his fruit. Then he also has the samskaara (taste) that he has brought with him into this incarnation which impels him into action. Thus he is primarily a bhOktha and secondarily a kartha. What he would specifically enjoy and suffer and perform are enabled by the Guna or inclination with which he is cast into this birth. That is Easwara Sankalpam by virtue of His power to dispense the fruits of karma. Thus it could be easlily inferred that the Guna with which a person is born into this birth is solely for this incarnation only and is not necessarily carried forward into a future birth. It could change depending on the Easwara Sankalpam again. Such Easwara Sankalpam is not arbitrary but directly related to one's karma. So the man is his own author. I hope Sri KRS gets his answer if he would open up the vista of his vision to more than a specific time period in a person's life. Devoid of this background one keeps arguing that a person can make his destiny within this birth. Such concept would vitiate karma theory of 'as you sow so you reap' and would be illogical.

Regards,
Saab

 

[Chintana]

Yenakku purigirathu!

This comment was aimed at KRS. And completely unnecessary!

We are not going to have insults in this forum!

I have repeated this time and again!

Chintana

Brahmasri Saba!

" aho shastram asho shastram
aho guru aho guru
aho gnanam aho gnanam
aho aanandam aho aanandam "

In one film "maya bazar" there is one quote from NTR - "puriyadhavankku sonnalum puriyadhu" at first I was puzzled by this statement - ungalluku puriyartho?

vanakkathudan
malgova.mango

 

[Chintana]

Reponse to Sri KRS and Sri Saab

Dear Sri KRS & Sri Saab,

My response specifically has to do with your postings no. 90 & 91 on this thread.

I concur with Sri Saab - that Sri KRS you are expressing an unwillingness to see a point of view.

I think several persons have answered your deep, thought-provoking questions in an equally deep, thought-provoking way. Sri Saab is one such.

As a neutral observer, I am able to see the merits in your argument as well as the astounding merits in all the counter arguments posed as a response to you (I am discounting the frivolous insults here, of course).

As to your questions on Varna I think they have been ably answered by many.

There is one concept that I would like to bring up here - something that features in most of your discussions - the idea of a Guru.

My understanding of a Guru-disciple relationship: When one has found his/her Guru OR the Guru has found him/her - there is an immediate knowing in the heart that - YES! - this is it!

In other words, a search ends.

But a journey begins.

This journey involves practicising all the spiritual disciplines that the Guru lovingly imposes on the disciple, plus reading his/her works or listening to his/her words.

Once the Guru-disciple connection is made the disciple usually does not go after other writings or other Gurus' prescriptions - any Guru-respecting tradition strongly discourages that because that leads to the dilution of one's spiritual essence and discipline.

This does not mean there are no other qualified gurus and that one should not respect their views.

It is more like the PhD program in the US (something I am doing - so I can talk about it with a measure of confidence). You need ONE advisor to work with to get your PhD. One PhD, one advisor. One Spiritual goal, One Guru. There may be other qualified members in the faculty whose lectures one may enjoy (other Gurus) but for all practical purposes my advisor is the expert in my field and I should rely on his word as final. Other qualified faculty may have interesting things to say but final say - always advisor - always Guru.

You say Bhagavan Sri Ramana is your Guru. But you quote many other spiritual giants with equal fervor. You are particularly bothered by some things that Maha Periyava has said. Well he is not your Guru! So why are you bothered? He makes sense to others - so be it!

Whatever Bhagavan Sri Ramana says about Varna or Caste should be the point from where you get your clarifications.

If one has a Guru one cannot be so all over the place.

I hope I haven't offended you.

Best,
Chintana

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri KRS,

This exchange is a classic example of what I was talking about.

If you didn't get an answer yet maybe your Guru didn't think you are ready yet.

We all have to work for spiritual answers. Maybe your Guru wants you to put more effort.

Only you know. It's between you and your Guru.

I think this is why Sri Saab didn't know how to answer your question.

Regards,
Chintana

Dear Sri KRS,

Thanks again for your reply.

You have said:


There is no secret information. Just as what is Gayathri is known to all yet the efficacy of it is when given to a sishya by a Guru, one's knowledge is not the same from self-knowledge and that learnt from a Guru.

If you have a Guru to whom you have explicitly put these questions regarding Guna and you did get answers the way you have described them to us, I have nothing else to say.

Regards,
Saab