How Varna/Caste System Harmed Brahmins

[Ramaa]

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Can you imagine that the issue is pending since 1947 thanks to Nehru-Gandhi's socialist secularism!

No resident papers for West Pakistan refugees (read Hindus)
Luv Puri Jammu: The Jammu and Kashmir government has categorically said refugees who came to the State from the Punjab province (now in Pakistan) during the 1947 communal riots are not eligible for the Permanent Resident Certificate.
Better known as West Pakistan refugees, they are not state subjects of Jammu and Kashmir and hence not eligible for the certificate, Minister of State for Revenue, Relief and Rehabilitation Aijaz Ahmed Khan told The Hindu here on Saturday
Several attempts by the government to evolve consensus among the political parties on the issue had not yielded results.
Grant of the certificate to these refugees, which was part of the Congress manifesto in the 2002 Assembly poll, is set to become a prime issue in the coming elections.
According to official figures, 5,764 families, most of them belonging to Scheduled Castes, migrated from the neighbouring Sialkot district as communal riots rocked the entire Punjab belt in 1947. Though they have been J & K residents for the past 60 years and are Indian citizens, they cannot buy property, get employment in the State or even vote in the Assembly elections as they do not have the Permanent Resident Certificate.

This essential legal document is given only to those whose ancestors have lived in the State for at least 10 years before May 14, 1954.
While human rights groups have been pressing the demand for grant of the Permanent Resident Certificate, many political parties are opposing it as, according to them, the sanctity of the document will be lost.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/20/stories/2008012056051000.htm

 

[Ramaa]

Why was my posting removed?

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

An overview of the caste system

The intention of this thread was to give a new angle to the caste problem.

Most of us who move socially with people from other religions and countries are asked
this question about the Caste system. Hinduism is given a bad name all over the world because
of the Caste system. Though we no longer believe in the system, it has become political and
will continue to haunt us.

Now, since I have faced this question many times, I have drafted a reply giving a sort of
resume of the system.

Of course this post is not for the people who believe in the caste system and consider it to be
the fundamental tenet of Hinduism. These are mostly followers of Purva Mimansa which dwells on
Vidhis or orders and Nitya Karma.

1. The caste system was originally conceived as a simple division of labour. Caste (varna or
jati ) is an Indian phenomenon that is not restricted to Hindu sections of society. The
approving use of the term "Brahmin" in Buddhist and Jain texts shows that even these socially
critical movements were comfortable with a caste structured society provided that obligations
and privileges accorded to the various castes were justly distributed.

2. It basically differs from the class system of the Feudal ages in that the system was not
meant to perpetuate the rule of the Brahmins. Brahmins are the Intellectual Aristocracy and not
hereditary rulers.

3. The Brahmins who brought the system into vogue were not the ruling class. In fact it is a
classic case of self denial in that they placed themselves at the mercy of the ruling class.
The rulers of India came from all castes including Brahmins. But the Brahmin rulers were very
few.

4. The Brahmin scholars wrote the laws of the country which all the Hindu rulers followed.

5. The English colonial government did not give any preference to Brahmins. The Oriental
education in Sanskrit and scriptures that the Brahmins underwent was of no value to the
British.

6. The Brahmins took to English education because they were not the landed gentry. English
education gave them the positions which they occupied in colonial India.

7. Untouchability was practiced by almost all castes in India and not only Brahmins.

8. Brahmins being basically non-violent people never physically harmed any of the other
communities.

9. The Brahmins were as much victims of the system as the other castes. ( The basic idea of
this thread.)

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Continued from earlier post

10. To the question of whether the reservations based on caste shows whether caste system still exists in India, the answer is a firm NO. India is democratic country where the Constitution guarantees equal rights to all citizens.

The reservation policy is similar to the positive discrimination or affirmative action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

But now it has become more of a political ploy for votes. This is resorted to by all parties.

This concludes my posts in this thread. I have said whatever I wanted to say.

I think my efforts are worth it even if one person is influenced by this.

Thank you all.

 

[praveen]

Why was my posting removed?

No 2 individuals are same. What you think is right will be looked as wrong by someone else.

We have a lot of members from varied backgrounds and posts that are offensive to our members will be removed. We received a lot of complaints and thats why your posts were hidden from public view.

We advise all members to check the guidelines at http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/guidelines.php

so that we are all in the same boat

Thank you.

 

[Ramaa]

Praveenji,

Thanks for your posting. If the moderation is even handed I will have no problem. I am giving here an example of what is not even handed.

Just as the Bible is the book of the Christians and Quron is the book of the Muslims, Vedas are the books of Hindus. There is a special class of people who are slowly injecting a view that they can separate the Upanishads from the Veda and throw out the karma kaanda to ridicule and contempt. Unfortunately for them the Upanishads themselves do not separate itself from the karma kanda (from where the Brahmins have their origin) and in all their narration the Upanishads start with the karma kaanda and justify how its conclusions have roots in it. This very thread of Sri Nachi is a fine example of the denunciation of Hinduism and its basics. He has a peculiar view that he can post whatever he wants and would not come to debate. To these special class of people the believers such as ourselves are the fundamentalists! Sri KRS has written a treatise of ridicule and denunciation of the Hindus who want to keep their traditions from being harmed and their followings from being poached and unfortunately the moderator has protected it from being opposed by locking the thread. I think it is a big favour to him to let it stand there unquestioned. She should have really removed that thread like you have removed mine. I guess there are different rules for different people.

I really wonder what options are there for those whose fundamentals are derided and their ability to counter is choked. In fact I would request you to let us know who do you think are the Tamil Brahmins and if they have any roots in Hinduism or are they just a social grouping?

Thank you

 

[Chintana]

Sri Ramaa,

What are you still doing in this thread? This thread is meant for people who think fundamentals CAN be questioned.

For conservative people like you there is another thread called Philosophy under Customs and Traditions.

If you want to promote the view that all that is traditional is great - I repeat - this is NOT the thread for you.

If you choose to post here I will assume that you have no problems with people questioning traditional views.

It is to prevent clashes between conservative and liberal thinkers amongst us that this division was created.

If you don't want to respect that division we will take appropriate action. Please don't complain.

Regards,
Chintana

Praveenji,

Thanks for your posting. If the moderation is even handed I will have no problem. I am giving here an example of what is not even handed.

Just as the Bible is the book of the Christians and Quron is the book of the Muslims, Vedas are the books of Hindus. There is a special class of people who are slowly injecting a view that they can separate the Upanishads from the Veda and throw out the karma kaanda to ridicule and contempt. Unfortunately for them the Upanishads themselves do not separate itself from the karma kanda (from where the Brahmins have their origin) and in all their narration the Upanishads start with the karma kaanda and justify how its conclusions have roots in it. This very thread of Sri Nachi is a fine example of the denunciation of Hinduism and its basics. He has a peculiar view that he can post whatever he wants and would not come to debate. To these special class of people the believers such as ourselves are the fundamentalists! Sri KRS has written a treatise of ridicule and denunciation of the Hindus who want to keep their traditions from being harmed and their followings from being poached and unfortunately the moderator has protected it from being opposed by locking the thread. I think it is a big favour to him to let it stand there unquestioned. She should have really removed that thread like you have removed mine. I guess there are different rules for different people.

I really wonder what options are there for those whose fundamentals are derided and their ability to counter is choked. In fact I would request you to let us know who do you think are the Tamil Brahmins and if they have any roots in Hinduism or are they just a social grouping?

Thank you

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Chintanaji,

My question: "In fact I would request you to let us know who do you think are the Tamil Brahmins and if they have any roots in Hinduism or are they just a social grouping?", is not answered. The best way is for the forum to be a forum where people give pros and cons and even if it is not resolved it will enable the readers to make up their mind. But in the new set up this is becoming a notice board. If people like me who happen not to post then this forum would become a notice board for those who gleefully challenge and deride the basics of Hinduism and the Brahmanas and of course the vice versa is also possible. Is this the intention of the forum?

And why are you more happy cracking your whip? Have I belittled any of the forums guidelines? Is there no respect for people who are in my opinion more respectable than one can assume.

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

How varna/caste system harmed Brahmins

Dear Praveenji and Chintanaji,

In my humble opinion, Sri Ramaaji has a valid point. If anyone wants to post
his views, he is quite welcome to do so. But, he can't say " Now, look my
friends. You would better take it or leave it. I am not going to answer any of
your queries". If anyone has made a point and if this is refuted or countered,
he must come back and reply . He must convince the person who holds a
contrary view.

If you read sri Adi Sankara's bhashya, he himself viewed all his commentaries
as a severe critic and offered explanations to the possible counters, and his
commentaries run like this - commentary, objection, reply to objection, again
objection, again reply and so on.

Of course, I agree that there should be no personal attacks and all the
discussions must be objective.

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri Ramaa,

Since you have addressed some of my actions in your posting I think I won't be out of line answering some of your queries.

I will let Praveen handle the rest.

Read on...

Praveenji,

Thanks for your posting. If the moderation is even handed I will have no problem. I am giving here an example of what is not even handed.

Just as the Bible is the book of the Christians and Quron is the book of the Muslims, Vedas are the books of Hindus. There is a special class of people who are slowly injecting a view that they can separate the Upanishads from the Veda and throw out the karma kaanda to ridicule and contempt.

Please point to the appropriate posting that says this. I personally did not get this sense from reading any of the postings. May be I missed something. Do let me know.



Unfortunately for them the Upanishads themselves do not separate itself from the karma kanda (from where the Brahmins have their origin) and in all their narration the Upanishads start with the karma kaanda and justify how its conclusions have roots in it.

Same response as above.

This very thread of Sri Nachi is a fine example of the denunciation of Hinduism and its basics.

I have read that post several times - nowhere does he denounce Hinduism or its basics, in my opinion. Again, please point to the specific wording that you find problematic.


He has a peculiar view that he can post whatever he wants and would not come to debate.

I think he knows what he says will be discussed. Of course he seems to prefer discussion over any type of fighting - that is the sense I have.


To these special class of people the believers such as ourselves are the fundamentalists!

You are getting carried away here. Point me to the specific part you found offensive.


Sri KRS has written a treatise of ridicule and denunciation of the Hindus who want to keep their traditions from being harmed and their followings from being poached and unfortunately the moderator has protected it from being opposed by locking the thread.

I did not agree with what he said - that is why I closed that thread.

Before you throw words at me, please pause.

What I thought I had also done, which apparently has not been executed effectively is that - I thought I deleted that thread. Looks like I haven't.



I think it is a big favour to him to let it stand there unquestioned. She should have really removed that thread like you have removed mine. I guess there are different rules for different people.

Again, I encourage you to watch what you write!



I really wonder what options are there for those whose fundamentals are derided and their ability to counter is choked. In fact I would request you to let us know who do you think are the Tamil Brahmins and if they have any roots in Hinduism or are they just a social grouping?

Sri Ramaa, you basically have to understand that our forum has two major types of members - conservatives, like yourself and liberalists like the people you have mentioned in your posting.

The problems between these two groups CAN NEVER BE SOLVED.

Every country has its share of conservatives and liberalists who cannot see eye-to-eye. That problem is so big that frequently they form opposite ends of the political spectrum in any country.


This forum is just a small representation of that.



--

To all posters in general,

Anybody here would be highly mistaken to think that I can resolve the problems between conservatives and liberalists.

It is specifically to avoid this kind of clash that the "philosophy" section appears under two different heads - one called Customs and Traditions and the other called Philosophy - I think the description makes this very clear.

The likes of Sri Ramaa are never going to like the views of Sri Nacchinarkiniyan and Sri KRS one hundred percent.

Sri KRS and Sri N are never going to like Sri Ramaa's views one hundred percent.

What do you want me to do?

It is precisely to avoid this kind of problem that I suggested very early on (quite a few months ago) that we should all pick out specific problems with an intent to evolve an ACTION PLAN.

But nobody wants to do that.

Everybody is bent on CONVERSION.

Liberalists want to convert the conservatives and conservatives want to convert the liberalists.

Nobody has come up with any concrete action plans that will actually help the community.

What of what you say in these threads is going to actually help a Tamil Brahmin in TN live better?

None of you have good answers!!!

On top of this we have frequent comments that show anger and frustration toward the moderators.


All of you just want to talk!


Loudly!


And fight!


And convert!


None of you has managed to convince me how your topics are actually going to help our community.


Give me one good reason I should invest my time moderating your discussions!!!


Chintana

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri NRR,

Dear Praveenji and Chintanaji,

In my humble opinion, Sri Ramaaji has a valid point. If anyone wants to post
his views, he is quite welcome to do so. But, he can't say " Now, look my
friends. You would better take it or leave it. I am not going to answer any of
your queries". If anyone has made a point and if this is refuted or countered,
he must come back and reply . He must convince the person who holds a
contrary view.

Please point me to the appropriate posting.

If you read sri Adi Sankara's bhashya, he himself viewed all his commentaries
as a severe critic and offered explanations to the possible counters, and his
commentaries run like this - commentary, objection, reply to objection, again
objection, again reply and so on.

Of course, I agree that there should be no personal attacks and all the
discussions must be objective.

Regards,
Chintana

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Sow. Chintanaji and Sri Praveenji,

After reading your posting I felt it is more important to answer my question: "who do you think are the Tamil Brahmins and if they have any roots in Hinduism or are they just a social grouping?"

As you know that there are some Christians who think they are Tamil Brahmins. There has been discussions in this forum if a Tamil Brahmin can be athiests too.

These surmise that Tamil Brahmins are a social grouping.

You have suddenly created a cleavage that there are 'conservatives' and I am one of them. All that I know is that I am a Tamil Brahmin and I resent such branding of me. By the way who are these liberals and what constitutes to be a liberal?

To be nebulous is no escape. If you don't make your choice, members will and is it not taking place right before your eyes? Creating artificial barrier would serve no useful purpose other than buying some time. Also nothing in this world continue for ever to be irresolute. Are you willing to be author of the resolution is the question.

I did not agree with what he said - that is why I closed that thread.

Before you throw words at me, please pause.

What I thought I had also done, which apparently has not been executed effectively is that - I thought I deleted that thread. Looks like I haven't.

Dear Sow. Chintanaji, I am no privy to your thoughts and I take it from the facts of what happened. You deleted Sri Desi's posting but kept Sri KRS's. I don't have to watch or be afraid of saying the truth. You can say sorry instead of throwing admonitions such as 'watch your words'!

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

How varna/caste system harmed Brahmins

Dear Chintanaji,

Sorry, It is not there now ! I vividly remember I have seen a statement to
this effect -' I will not answer any queries '. I regret, therefore, my inability
to point out this statement now. Thank you for your response and with regards,

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Ranganathanji,

I had myself pointed out to this earlier and in fact Sow. Chintanaji had sided with me and questioned the propriety of Sri Nachi's stand that he would only post his views but not answer questions. Not only Sri Nachi continues his stance but in the last post he contends that he would be happy even if one person buys into his views! Is not this using the forum for propaganda?

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Ramaa...

Please cool down, whatever we all wanted to say we said. Let's Finish it.


malgova.mango

 

[kunjuppu]

chintana,

you have my sympathies and support.

moderation is not an easy job and my admiration to you for taking up this rather time consuming and at times frustrating task.

you are absolutely correct when you say that views will differ. even within a household, we cannot agree on many things. yet we all live together, and agree to disagree, accommodate our difference, and move on.

let us all, as participants here, give our views without fear. at the same time agree that others will not agree to it, to a varying degree, ie from 0% to 99.99%.

the most important point which chintana made, ie come up with practical ideas to make our tamil brahmin cohorts' lives in tamil nadu more in tune with the tamil society.

be positive people, and let a million ideas flow through this forum

 

[Chintana]

I am sorry, Sri Ramaa.

It is downright wrong of you to imply that I somehow have favorites in this forum.

That is not a correct view and I cannot let you propagate that.

So I repeat - do watch your words!

Regards,
Chintana

Dear Sow. Chintanaji, I am no privy to your thoughts and I take it from the facts of what happened. You deleted Sri Desi's posting but kept Sri KRS's. I don't have to watch or be afraid of saying the truth. You can say sorry instead of throwing admonitions such as 'watch your words'!

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[Chintana]

Here we go again...

I don't SIDE with anyone!

If you happen to like some of what I am saying you say I am SIDING you.

If you happen to think some of what I am saying is in line with Sri KRS or Sri N - you crow "look at what is happening in this forum!"

If you believe that you are not being handled fairly in this forum, Sri Ramaa - you have no compulsions to be here.

I do not want to spend my time and energy on unnecessary, unthoughtful, inconsiderate, egoistic responses!

Regards,
Chintana

Dear Ranganathanji,

I had myself pointed out to this earlier and in fact Sow. Chintanaji had sided with me and questioned the propriety of Sri Nachi's stand that he would only post his views but not answer questions. Not only Sri Nachi continues his stance but in the last post he contends that he would be happy even if one person buys into his views! Is not this using the forum for propaganda?

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu,

I thank you for your support.

It is always encouraging to work with people who want to support.

Regards,
Chintana

chintana,

you have my sympathies and support.

moderation is not an easy job and my admiration to you for taking up this rather time consuming and at times frustrating task.

you are absolutely correct when you say that views will differ. even within a household, we cannot agree on many things. yet we all live together, and agree to disagree, accommodate our difference, and move on.

let us all, as participants here, give our views without fear. at the same time agree that others will not agree to it, to a varying degree, ie from 0% to 99.99%.

the most important point which chintana made, ie come up with practical ideas to make our tamil brahmin cohorts' lives in tamil nadu more in tune with the tamil society.

be positive people, and let a million ideas flow through this forum

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri Ramaa,

Please recognize that you are a conservative in a liberals thread.

This is not the thread for you.

I hope I won't see another posting of yours in this thread. I will delete it. It doesn't belong here.

And no, I will NOT solve your problem!

I believe all of you are adult enough to understand where you should post what views!

Regards,
Chintana

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Malgovaji and Sow.Chintanaji and Sri Praveenji,

I agree that we have said enough of what we have to say. I agree with Sri Kunjuppu that Sow. Chintanaji has done her best and it is not easy. Sow Chintanaji I am sorry too if I hurt your feelings. I said things out of my anguish that our exalted religion is being demeaned, derided and at times wantenly and wilfully projected in bad light and those who follow it were demonised. That is no tribute to our ancestors who left us a huge and wealthy heritage that no other community is blessed with.

And Sow. Chintanaji, you are right. Unless I understand to my satisfaction the purpose of this forum from the founder as to the basic question that I have raised, my participation would be merely to visit. I will not be using this to do any propaganda pro or anti.

I have no personal animosity towards Sri Nachi or Sri KRS. I stand beyond that.

With my best regards to all,
Ramaa

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri NRR,

Thanks for trying.

Regards,
Chintana

Dear Chintanaji,

Sorry, It is not there now ! I vividly remember I have seen a statement to
this effect -' I will not answer any queries '. I regret, therefore, my inability
to point out this statement now. Thank you for your response and with regards,

 

[praveen]

Sometimes we all say things without actually intending to do so. In the heat of conversations and discussions, things get discussed which at a later point in time or even in another person's perspective would be wrong or even taken in a different context altogether. Unfortunately, none of us know what the other person thinks and will answer.

Because of this, whatever that is being discussed anywhere has the tendency to flare up.

I believe the same has happened here in this thread.

Some have a conservative view, while some have otherwise. While i do not want to name ppl, we all know who have been at loggerheads trying to prove the other was wrong.
In a view to "calm" things down, i am going to restore all the previous postings of Ramaa and let the end user come to a conclusion.

At the same time, i am going to close this thread and if anyone want to have a "meaningful" discussion on the same topic, feel free to start one in the section of your interest.

As chintana mentioned we have 2 sections for Philosophy - one for the right wing and the other for the left wing.

Please remember we are all here for the same purpose but have different paths.

As long as we co-exist and allows others to walk in the same path, our end goals would be easier to achieve, otherwise we would just be fighting amongst ourselves and be stuck in the middle of the road.

Thank you.

 

[Chintana]

Dear Praveen,

I am highly in favor of your decision to close this thread.

But I also think we should give the posters one more chance to sort things out and get back to normality.

Could we postpone this decision for now?

Regards,
Chintana

Sometimes we all say things without actually intending to do so. In the heat of conversations and discussions, things get discussed which at a later point in time or even in another person's perspective would be wrong or even taken in a different context altogether. Unfortunately, none of us know what the other person thinks and will answer.

Because of this, whatever that is being discussed anywhere has the tendency to flare up.

I believe the same has happened here in this thread.

Some have a conservative view, while some have otherwise. While i do not want to name ppl, we all know who have been at loggerheads trying to prove the other was wrong.
In a view to "calm" things down, i am going to restore all the previous postings of Ramaa and let the end user come to a conclusion.

At the same time, i am going to close this thread and if anyone want to have a "meaningful" discussion on the same topic, feel free to start one in the section of your interest.
As chintana mentioned we have 2 sections for Philosophy - one for the right wing and the other for the left wing.

Please remember we are all here for the same purpose but have different paths.

As long as we co-exist and allows others to walk in the same path, our end goals would be easier to achieve, otherwise we would just be fighting amongst ourselves and be stuck in the middle of the road.

Thank you.

 

[praveen]

Dear Chintana,

I will leave the thread open, but as i mentioned above, we do not want "fighting" amongst ourselves.

While we allow open discussions and freedom of expression in the forum, the same should not be misused for other purposes.

Meaningful discussions with a view to "learn/understand" our fantastic culture will always be encouraged anytime.

Time spent arguing amongst ourselves could be well used for various things.

I dont think i have to say that each and everyone of us is gifted in their own respects and we have lots of sections where we could use the help to "teach" other people about our culture or even clarify things which modern youngsters do not understand or even make an attempt to understand.

Thank u.