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How Varna/Caste System Harmed Brahmins

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Excellent ! Mr.Praveen

Bravo! Mr.Praveen !


Your msg is excellently coined and is able to bring out the true virtues of LIFE .
Einstein's theory of relativity -- applies here too ! As you've mentioned -- Different (people, perspectives ,thought processes) result in
conflicting (contexts , beliefs, faiths) but your final statement is valid for one and all !

To just add a few lines , with your kind permission !

There's also an other easy way to handle things if someone is trying to get you into a duel - prefer not to respond to msgs that taunt you !

That would be a moderate way to handle things !

Sometimes we all say things without actually intending to do so. In the heat of conversations and discussions, things get discussed which at a later point in time or even in another person's perspective would be wrong or even taken in a different context altogether.

............

As long as we co-exist and allows others to walk in the same path, our end goals would be easier to achieve, otherwise we would just be fighting amongst ourselves and be stuck in the middle of the road.

Thank you.
 
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Are there a conservative Hindus and liberal Hindus? I do not think so.

The problem with Hinduism is that trying to describe it is similar to the five blind men trying
to describe an elephant. In fact it is worse.

Hinduism is a parliament of religion with Animism to Advaita included in it. The Hinduism the
wise Seers, our forefathers, evolved was and is inclusive.

Now Hinduism has followers of

1. Purva Mimansa philosophy.

2. Vedanta and its numerous interpretations.

3. Sankhya/Yoga followers.

4. SriVidya Upasakas.

5. Saivas.

6. Sakthas.

7. Nath/Siddhas.

8. Puranic Hinduism.

9. Different Bhakti movements.

10. Followers of different Gurus who consider themselves to be the incarnations of God.

and so on.

Now it happens very often that one group calls the other non-Hindu and claims that their
interpretation of Hinduism is the correct one. I got blasted when I justified the system of
animal sacrifices.

The Hinduism we practice is a permutation and combination of different belief systems.

There have been a lot of arguments between SriVidya followers and other schools on the
Internet. The discussion about the role of women in Hinduism has people quoting history about
the practice of sati and opponents quoting the position of women rishis and the practice in
SriVidya of allowing women not only to perform Pujas, but also be Gurus. There are Smarta Tamil
Brahmin women who are SriVidya Gurus.

Now some people may argue that women should not learn Mantras.

The problem is that there is no right or wrong answer. You can quote scriptures either way.
PurvaMimansa and Sankhya schools in their original form did not believe in the conception of a
Supreme God. Do we call them Atheists like some historians have done?

Every Hindu has his own conception of Hinduism. We have learn to accept that everyone has the
right to his/her own point of view.

I have started threads with a view to talk about some of my pet subjects. This is not one of
them. I had started the thread about the "Oral tradition of the Vedas" and written about
"Bhakthi Yoga" in detail. Those are my pet subjects. This thread and the one on "Why" is more
historical than religious. I have stopped posting in the Philosophy thread as my dissertation on Purva Mimansa and paper on Vedanta may raise some heckles here. As I said earlier this thread is not about the origin or prevalance of the Caste system.
 
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In my view Nacchinarkiniyan's analysis is bang on target. Originally persons of exceptional intelligence and learning ability were chosen don the mantle of the spritual masters and guides, as they had to memorise, internalise and interpret a huge amount of verse and poetry which came to be known as Vedas,, Brahmanas, Samhita, Smrtits, Sutras, Sastras, Upanishads, Puranas, etc. The capacity, diligence, focus, aptitude and patience required to master these were tremendous and only a select few had them and the select were called as Brahmanas. But what followed was quite unexpected. Those of their offspring who were ambitious and enjoyed the power and pelf which naturally followed the learning, were loath to let go of them and let a totally different set of people enjoy them. The simplest thing to do is to persuade the people and the powers that be, through their own interpretations that they, their ilk and their offspring possessed a divine right to their professions. Thus was born the casteist interpretation of "Chaturvarnyam mayasrishtam". If we look around we can find such instances of such usurpation everywhere. Indira, Rajiv, Sanjay, Sonia, Priyanka, Rahul, Benazir, Bilal, Begum Khaleda, Rabri, Akhilesh Yadav, Joseph Kabila, George and Jeb Bush, Hillary, Stalin and Muthu, etc are examples of this doctrine "my family knows best" and the caste system is its larger manifestation. We have to be surprised only if the original intent of our ancestors and seers continued in its original form. As the author has pointed out rightly it is time we threw off the delusion that we are the best and others are not as good. The only good thing that the caste system has unwittingly brought about for us is that we still are forced to keep our traditions for fear of reproof and this has more or less kept our community on the straight and narrow. Isnt this doing a lot in this present world?
 
.... I said things out of my anguish that our exalted religion is being demeaned, derided and at times wantenly and wilfully projected in bad light and those who follow it were demonised. That is no tribute to our ancestors who left us a huge and wealthy heritage that no other community is blessed with.
ramaa,

can i request you not to despair?

i think you are taking too much on yourself and the burden of despair and hopelessness overwhelms.

there are times when i too have felt like that. in such times, it is best to seek out folks who are NOT of the same mindset. like nacchi here. they give us a refreshing different view of life, which is focussed on 'getting on' with things.

hinduism will go on, whether we worry about it or not. what is important is that in our own little way, we practise what we can, preach what we can, and promote what we can.

this is something that we can all chew. to tackle it on a macro or global level is beyond our means, and only fills our thoughts with phantoms, which are more frightful than the original cause of the fear itself.

please be gentle with yourself. and while you are at it, please take a moment to smell the roses and enjoy the moonrays
icon7.gif


all is well ...
 
That is very mature!

.... I said things out of my anguish that our exalted religion is being demeaned, derided and at times wantenly and wilfully projected in bad light and those who follow it were demonised. That is no tribute to our ancestors who left us a huge and wealthy heritage that no other community is blessed with.
ramaa,

can i request you not to despair?

i think you are taking too much on yourself and the burden of despair and hopelessness overwhelms.

there are times when i too have felt like that. in such times, it is best to seek out folks who are NOT of the same mindset. like nacchi here. they give us a refreshing different view of life, which is focussed on 'getting on' with things.

hinduism will go on, whether we worry about it or not. what is important is that in our own little way, we practise what we can, preach what we can, and promote what we can.

this is something that we can all chew. to tackle it on a macro or global level is beyond our means, and only fills our thoughts with phantoms, which are more frightful than the original cause of the fear itself.

please be gentle with yourself. and while you are at it, please take a moment to smell the roses and enjoy the moonrays
icon7.gif


all is well ...
 
To all posters in this thread,

Sri KRS has requested me to give details behind my reasoning in one of my recent interventions in this thread.

I am going to do so.

I will be making references to my interpretations of Sri Saab and perhaps Sri Tech but my comments are strictly intended for Sri KRS. Please do not interfere - this is going to be a two person exchange.

More specifically I want no jeering, no sarcasm, no veiled comments, no throwing snide comments from the sides - in short no immature behavior of the sort I have seen played out in this thread and many others.

If I do see any post that reflects such sentiments I will take it down mercilessly, without warning!

Thank you,
Chintana
 
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To Sri KRS

General comment: The following is part of a forthcoming series of exchanges between Sri KRS and I. Please do not interfere if you are not explicitly asked. For more details refer to my posting no. 181 on this thread: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?p=11422#post11422

--

Dear Sri KRS,

Here are some of my thoughts on your ideas about Guna and Varna.

Before I proceed any further I wish to state something about my credentials - some of it you already know. I hold a Bachelor's degree in Indian Sociology where my pet subject was Indian Social Institutions. I have actually had some formal instruction in this area from a sociological point of view. My current doctoral interests are very different, of course. But I have always had a deep interest in the spirituality of our culture since my early teens and have read countless works - some of them in bits and pieces. Today I don't actively read such books for want of time, availability of books etc. So I cannot give you Sruthi and Smrithi references - for that matter I don't remember the titles of the many works I read in earlier years for I assimilated the meaning and let the rest of it go. So what I can give you is my understanding of how some of these ideas operate - developed from various sources, academic and otherwise, through the years with as much patience, receptivity and thoughtfulness I could muster.

Also, I don't happen to believe that more information will always bring clarity and understanding. I believe that learning the underlying logic is more important because in some sense this logic gets somewhat repeated in most of our scriptures.

--
I wish to begin with Sri Saab's ideas in posting #58 and your response #59 on this thread.

First about Guna, then we will worry about Varna.

Sri Saab says that Guna is inherited (not from parents but brough from previous lives).

You are asking, 'Is free will not important?'

My response: Both of you are right.

Why?

I look at the whole thing from the point of karma and reincarnation.

One's conscious good karma will earn a person the family/environmental conditions in the next birth that will give that soul a chance to develop those qualities. (Reincarnation occurs only so that we may improve ourselves to step closer to the Divine).

One's conscious bad karma will earn a person the family/environmental conditions in the next birth that give the consequences of that bad action - but only with the Divine intention that that person may learn to choose the right thing through such suffering.

From this standpoint, yes - it is indeed possible to 'bring' a certain guna from a previous life. This inherited guna (the result of one's karma in one or more lives) creates certain tendencies which cause it to be born under circumstances which will take it closer to God - hence highly evolved souls incarnate in spiritual families etc.

But it is possible to sow the seeds for changing our guna through new karma we perform in our current lives - for all of us have to act ever since we are born. So definitely it is possible to use free will to shape our karma. But we may not be able to change all of the karmic consequences (guna, in this case) that we inherited. The extent of change we are able to achieve depends on our effort and God's grace.

Sri Saab kind of touches on the free will part in one of his later postings (he says "Man is his own author") but sort of does not flush it out. Looks like he kind of knows this but it was not central to the point he was making.

But in your posting no. 59 - in your free will argument - I didn't see any space for inherited guna.

I'd like to hear you on this before I proceed.

Regards,
Chintana

P.S. My responses will be delayed as I am under a lot of work pressure. I apologize for it in advance.
 
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Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji,

When I requested you to give the reasonings behind your posting, I did not contemplate posting the response here. You must think that our conversations here may be of help to our members. And, I agree.

As I told you in private, I took your response to my earlier postings as an administrator 'moderating' and not as a contributor 'commenting'. You usually give details behind your comments and because you did not do so this time (you have mentioned the reason, but as usual I missed it), I thought that may be my postings are looked at as argumentative and so I did not want to continue and be a source of all that is negative.

My knowledge of our scriptures comes from (by my Gurus's anugraham) reading on my own, discussing details with a couple of my very learned friends, who have their own Gurus and as such understand the different nuances of our scriptures. So, I am ready to change my views on anything in Hinduism if sound logic supported by the sayings in our final authority, our Srutis.

Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji, has, in one of his postings above mentioned that there is a difference between a 'Guru' and an 'Acharyal'. I understand and accept what he is saying. In that sense my own Guru is not physically living, but nevertheless He imparts His teachings to me in what seems like miraculous ways. I am indeed blessed.

I am also at present pressed for time. So, please bear with me. I will come back and post my response to your posting above in a day or two.

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to substantiate my words in the Forum.

Pranams,
KRS

To all posters in this thread,

Sri KRS has requested me to give details behind my reasoning in one of my recent interventions in this thread.

I am going to do so.

I will be making references to my interpretations of Sri Saab and perhaps Sri Tech but my comments are strictly intended for Sri KRS. Please do not interfere - this is going to be a two person exchange.

More specifically I want no jeering, no sarcasm, no veiled comments, no throwing snide comments from the sides - in short no immature behavior of the sort I have seen played out in this thread and many others.

If I do see any post that reflects such sentiments I will take it down mercilessly, without warning!

Thank you,
Chintana
 
Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji,

Sorry for the late response. I am answering your query in your last posting above.

My response to Sri Saab Ji, came about as a response in particular to this (in his post above the one of mine which you quoted above):

(Thus Guna which is intrinsic in mind in terms of attitude and inclination is not acquired from parents - and thus not hereditory - but it does not deny that the parents would not have the same Guna. It is not acquired from them but brought into this incarnation as a result of poorva karma.)

My point was not that one does not have Vasanas (likes and dislikes) that are given expression by Gunas when one is born according to one's quota of Prarabdha Karma.

But, one has free will to alter the effects of these Gunas on oneself by practicing detachment from the fruits of action. This is the only way to stop accruing more and more karma.

Gunas are not carried over between births. Vasanas are. And Vasanas are impressions on the bodyless spiritual entity (not 'mind') that then comes back to take a new birth according to Ishwara's decision on what portion of one's accumulated karma from ALL previous lives will fructify during the new life. So, there is an intrinsic relationship between this karmaphala and what accumulated vasanas (which are latent desires) show up. We do not know what the design of rebirth is, because that is Ishwara's to decide. Just because one before dying just thinks that he or she will be born again in the same family for example does not mean that it is guaranteed.

The only way for human beings to evolve is through conscious effort connected with free will. Otherwise, we will be born again and again as our karma accrues. People who want to accrue 'good' karma will also be born endlessly, albeit with the 'good' phalas attached to them. The aim of our religion is to escape them.

Gunas from birth to birth will change for a person according to the present birth fixation of Karma Phala and it's interaction with one's Vasanas that manifest.

Scientifically, it is shown that by injuring, affecting the physical brain, one can alter one's behaviour. A violent person can become sattvic and vice versa. Certain foods also enhace/change one's Guna. It is also shown that Genetics and environment play very important roles in one's behaviour. Now this does not contradict with the Gunas constituting one's 'qualities' in this life when born, but rather tell us that this whole area of behaviour and mind functions are physically very complex. On top of it what happens after death is still more complex.

Pranams,
KRS
 
Dear Sri KRS,

My responses below...

Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji,

Sorry for the late response. I am answering your query in your last posting above.

My response to Sri Saab Ji, came about as a response in particular to this (in his post above the one of mine which you quoted above):

(Thus Guna which is intrinsic in mind in terms of attitude and inclination is not acquired from parents - and thus not hereditory - but it does not deny that the parents would not have the same Guna. It is not acquired from them but brought into this incarnation as a result of poorva karma.)

My point was not that one does not have Vasanas (likes and dislikes) that are given expression by Gunas when one is born according to one's quota of Prarabdha Karma.

But, one has free will to alter the effects of these Gunas on oneself by practicing detachment from the fruits of action. This is the only way to stop accruing more and more karma.

I did mean Vasanas during many times I mentioned Guna in my previous posting. Thanks for bringing out the difference.

To the point you have raised here - I think I recognized the difference in your stance from Sri Saab, in my previous posting.


Gunas are not carried over between births. Vasanas are.

True.

According to Sri Paramahansa Yogananda, if one has lived a God-connected life then the next birth is usually the next logical step in one's spiritual evolution.

To this extent, my understanding is that a large part of one's Guna may get carried over. For example, there are many stories of The Buddha having taken several births as Bodhisattva in several previous incarnations. He was a perfected being several times over before he took birth as Buddha.



And Vasanas are impressions on the bodyless spiritual entity (not 'mind')

Do you just want to say "soul"?

that then comes back to take a new birth according to Ishwara's decision on what portion of one's accumulated karma from ALL previous lives will fructify during the new life.

Actually, according to PY, it is WE who make that decision - not Ishwara. At the time of death one's entire life flashes in front of one's eyes and the most predominant feeling (or set of desires) in a soul makes the soul decide to come back to work out those desires. The soul is assigned a body according to its Karma Phala - has more to do with the law of Karma - which Ishwara usually does not interfere with.

Ishwara longs for us His children to come back to Him. Every effort we take to move toward Him is recognized by Him. He has no use for our stay in this world - it is WE who make that choice.


So, there is an intrinsic relationship between this karmaphala and what accumulated vasanas (which are latent desires) show up.

True.

We do not know what the design of rebirth is, because that is Ishwara's to decide. Just because one before dying just thinks that he or she will be born again in the same family for example does not mean that it is guaranteed.

Yes. Answer above.

The only way for human beings to evolve is through conscious effort connected with free will.

And devotion. And prayers. Spiritual progress is impossible without Divine Grace. Self-effort is of course necessary.

Otherwise, we will be born again and again as our karma accrues. People who want to accrue 'good' karma will also be born endlessly, albeit with the 'good' phalas attached to them. The aim of our religion is to escape them.

Yes.

Gunas from birth to birth will change for a person according to the present birth fixation of Karma Phala and it's interaction with one's Vasanas that manifest.

I agree to the extent that no birth will be exactly like another. To that extent Guna will change. But if one is a diligent in yoga practices this birth it is highly unlikely that that soul will be born an animal in his/her next.


Scientifically, it is shown that by injuring, affecting the physical brain, one can alter one's behaviour. A violent person can become sattvic and vice versa. Certain foods also enhace/change one's Guna. It is also shown that Genetics and environment play very important roles in one's behaviour. Now this does not contradict with the Gunas constituting one's 'qualities' in this life when born, but rather tell us that this whole area of behaviour and mind functions are physically very complex. On top of it what happens after death is still more complex.

Yes. I hope I have answered at least some of the points you raised. While I agree that free will has a big part to play I am not willing to write off whatever we, as souls, are carrying from our previous lives - call it guna or vasana.


Pranams,
KRS

Regards,
Chintana
 
Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji,

Thank you for your response.

I am going to give my response to yours, not line by line. I understand the gist of your argument and here is my reply:

1. I agree with Paramahamsa Yoganada Ji's interpretation of our Srutis as the one that comes closest to my one beliefs based on my own Guru's teachings.

2. One seminal aspect of the Paramahamsa Yoganada Ji's teaching is that VARNA IS NOT BY BIRTH, meaning that one is not born in to a caste automatically by his nature. To Him, Varna signifies the four stages that a 'soul' (I did not deliberately use this phrase before, because this means different things to different folks), goes through in the cycle of spiritual growth. So, as a human being one is first born as a Sudhra (attachment to material values) and progresses to Vaisya (starting to understand the spiritual existence), then to Kshatriya(transferring that knowledge to the welfare of others) and then to a Brahmin (progressing to a state wherefrom Moksha is possible). But He categorically states that the caste system as currently practiced is wrong. So, as such, His philosophy is very much akin to my own, not what Sri Saab Ji agrees with.

3. One has to be careful to differentiate between Vasanas and Gunas. Yes, a person carries the imprint of his/her life after death with Vasanas. So, in a sense we all are the makers of our own Karma. But how the accumulated Karma is divvied up to manifest itself in the next life as it's phala is inot in one's control. I used the word 'Ishwara' again deliberately in my posting as the one who divvy's up our karma pahalas in our next life. Because, if have the control over both the allocation of the portion of our karma in our next life, presumably we can forever till the end of time will come back to enjoy only the positive aspects of our karmaphala. This is where the function of Ishwara comes in (by the way, this function of Ishwara is recognized in all our three different philosophies of Advaitha, Dvaitha and Vishiiswadvaitha, irrespective of the definition of Ishwara in each branch). This is why a cow called Laxmi attained moksha at the hand of the Bhagawan Ramana and why a person like Swami Vivekananda was born as such and attained moksha. So are the numerous Sudras, Vaishyas, Kshatriyas and Brahmanas in our lore who attained moksha from the gunas they had when they operated. Gunas have nothing to do with attaining the final release, because one has to get past them to be liberated. A common fallacy is for folks to think that only attaining sattwa guna will liberate one's soul.

4. So, I agree with you. My differences with Sri Saab ji comes from the fact that he is arguing that Varna is by birth and as such if you are born a brahmin, just because it says that your svadharma is 'brahminical' when you come back you will be born again in a Brahmin family with your guna as sattvic guna. I do not think that this is what you agree with.

5. There are a band of folks who believe that all the brahmins born into the current day brahmin castes are all sattvic when they are born and so the svadharma is dictated by that. This is why I disagree with this thesis and I am willing to argue that a brahmin is not born to do the brahmin dharma, but rather the brahmin dharma is there waiting to be fulfilled by a 'brahmin'. There is a huge difference between the import of these two different ideas. And I am ready to quote the scriptures as well as giants such as the Maha Periaval and the Paramahamsa Yoganada ji to support my argument, while Sri Saab Ji tells me that this fact will be known only through the upadesam of one's guru.

Hope I have made my position clearer. If not, please let me know.

Pranams,
KRS
 
Response to KRS - I

Dear Sri KRS,

Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji,

Thank you for your response.

I am going to give my response to yours, not line by line. I understand the gist of your argument and here is my reply:

1. I agree with Paramahamsa Yoganada Ji's interpretation of our Srutis as the one that comes closest to my one beliefs based on my own Guru's teachings.

2. One seminal aspect of the Paramahamsa Yoganada Ji's teaching is that VARNA IS NOT BY BIRTH, meaning that one is not born in to a caste automatically by his nature. To Him, Varna signifies the four stages that a 'soul' (I did not deliberately use this phrase before, because this means different things to different folks), goes through in the cycle of spiritual growth. So, as a human being one is first born as a Sudhra (attachment to material values) and progresses to Vaisya (starting to understand the spiritual existence), then to Kshatriya(transferring that knowledge to the welfare of others) and then to a Brahmin (progressing to a state wherefrom Moksha is possible). But He categorically states that the caste system as currently practiced is wrong. So, as such, His philosophy is very much akin to my own, not what Sri Saab Ji agrees with.

Could you please point me to the specific book or other work where he says this?

Right now, the way this paragraph stands - it is your interpretation of the original. I don't have anything to say about that.



3. One has to be careful to differentiate between Vasanas and Gunas. Yes, a person carries the imprint of his/her life after death with Vasanas. So, in a sense we all are the makers of our own Karma.

I agree there is a difference between the two concepts - but the larger point that was made was that we bring something of ourselves into another life - irrespective of the manifested qualities of our parents.

Beyond this specific understanding the concepts of Guna and Vasana are not important - here in this context. I am not trivializing the difference, merely pointing to the amount of weightage each concept lends in making this point.


But how the accumulated Karma is divvied up to manifest itself in the next life as it's phala is inot in one's control. I used the word 'Ishwara' again deliberately in my posting as the one who divvy's up our karma pahalas in our next life. Because, if have the control over both the allocation of the portion of our karma in our next life, presumably we can forever till the end of time will come back to enjoy only the positive aspects of our karmaphala. This is where the function of Ishwara comes in (by the way, this function of Ishwara is recognized in all our three different philosophies of Advaitha, Dvaitha and Vishiiswadvaitha, irrespective of the definition of Ishwara in each branch).

The function of Ishwara is present at all times, not just at the time of death and rebirth. But when a person dies the kind of experience the soul undergoes cannot be replicated when the soul enters the body (unless of course the person learns to attain some kind of a samadhi state). PY has clearly stated in several of his writings that it is we who choose to come back (a little booklet called Understanding Death gives this information). At this time of transition what is more at play is our remorse at our wrong doings and wanting to set them right (therefore take on another body) as well the law of karma. Ishwara kripa doesn't change with our mortality. PY does not even discuss the function of God in this process.



This is why a cow called Laxmi attained moksha at the hand of the Bhagawan Ramana and why a person like Swami Vivekananda was born as such and attained moksha.

These souls must have earned and worked for these benefits in their previous lives. Of course Ishwara kripa must have been there to attain their respective states.

So are the numerous Sudras, Vaishyas, Kshatriyas and Brahmanas in our lore who attained moksha from the gunas they had when they operated.

Same answer.

Gunas have nothing to do with attaining the final release, because one has to get past them to be liberated. A common fallacy is for folks to think that only attaining sattwa guna will liberate one's soul.

Sattva Guna is perhaps not the only way to attain liberation. But it is perhaps the best way.

To attain liberation one must be able to connect with that inner self which is usually achieved consciously by a calm state of mind. This is definitely closer to Sattva Guna. All of our yoga-based scriptures say this.

Of course soldiers and warriors who die in a just cause achieve liberation.

I am sure that there are similar injunctions for other sections of the society.

Point is, working toward one's liberation can happen in two ways - (1) an automatic process of evolution which happens just by us dying and being reborn (2) by an active process of yogic intervention whereby one takes control of one's spiritual evolution and exercises determination to achieve liberation. To follow the latter path Sattva Guna has been deemed best by several stalwarts including PY.


(contd...)
 
Response to KRS - II

(...contd)

4. So, I agree with you. My differences with Sri Saab ji comes from the fact that he is arguing that Varna is by birth and as such if you are born a brahmin, just because it says that your svadharma is 'brahminical' when you come back you will be born again in a Brahmin family with your guna as sattvic guna. I do not think that this is what you agree with.

Until my last posting we hadn't gotten into the Varna part. I specifically said we'd take this piece by piece. So on the Guna-Vasana aspect I am assuming that you concede that some part of who we are we bring with us from other lives. Of course we use our effort in this life to work on the material we brought with us - which has, to some extent, been shaped by our parents and environment.

So I am proceeding from that premise.

I don't know which specific posting of Sri Saab you are referring to - I'd appreciate it if you give me specific pointers next time so that I can go back and check if I agree with your interpretation of his posting.

To me, his posting #70 on this thread deals with some Varna concepts. He is basically saying the Varna system should not be looked at as a division of labor but a division of talent. From this standpoint he is arguing that such talent is inheritable - it seems like a reasonable argument - a musician's daughter could inherit a similar singing voice - there is a whole nature-nurture argument going on here but I am willing to concede that DNA does have some power. This part of his argument can actually be more flushed out by both sides of the argument.

There is another part where he says Brahmin is a Brahmin by birth - and he ascribes it to the DNA part.

You are arguing that it is the qualities that make one a Brahmana - those are not necessarily inherited.

He is arguing that those qualities are inherited - either through one's own karma phala or by DNA, or by virtue of being raised in a Brahminical environment - or perhaps a combination of all three.

How can anybody resolve this argument?

Is there not truth in both?

You are emphasizing self-effort too much - he is emphasizing inherited qualities too much.


5. There are a band of folks who believe that all the brahmins born into the current day brahmin castes are all sattvic when they are born and so the svadharma is dictated by that.

Sri KRS, whenever there has been anybody in this forum who has called you names I have stopped and checked that kind of language.

It is that same sense of fairness that prompts me to write this - how can you use the term "brand of folks"? How can you brand people like that? If you disagree with something you are welcome but this statement and the words that follow below show disdain. How can that be acceptable?


This is why I disagree with this thesis and I am willing to argue that a brahmin is not born to do the brahmin dharma, but rather the brahmin dharma is there waiting to be fulfilled by a 'brahmin'. There is a huge difference between the import of these two different ideas.

Pray, give us the significance of this question. To me it seems like - does the glove fit the hand or the hand fit the glove?

Tell us why the resolution of this question, or more specifically, your way of looking at this issue is so important that the opposite camp has to abandon its stance.


And I am ready to quote the scriptures as well as giants such as the Maha Periaval and the Paramahamsa Yoganada ji to support my argument, while Sri Saab Ji tells me that this fact will be known only through the upadesam of one's guru.

I hope you are not saying that all the knowledge and wisdom these gurus chose to impart have been written out by them in books - and that the understanding and wisdom gained from direct Guru-contact is the same as reading books written by them.

Sri Saab, in my understanding, mentioned that the kind of nuanced understanding you seek can be imparted only by a guru.

That is his opinion of course. But I hope the larger point I made is not lost.


Hope I have made my position clearer. If not, please let me know.

Pranams,
KRS

Regards,
Chintana
 
Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji,

First of all, let me apologize for such a delay in replying. Unfortunately, while I am in my Vanaprastha stage of life, my work in the mundane world still exacts a price of time.

My responses are below in 'blue'.

Dear Sri KRS,
Could you please point me to the specific book or other work where he says this?

Please read the interpretation of Chapter III, Verse 24 of Bhagavat Gita by Paramahamsa Yogananda. (It appears in page 385 of the two volume book by the Master titled 'God talks with Arjuna' - 'The Bhagavad Gita' - ' Royal Science of God Realization' Paperback edition - 2001, published by 'Council of self Realization Fellowship'. He says:
"Concerning castes, it may rightly be said that every nation has four castes or types. The four divisions are dependent on quality and have nothing to do with race or caste as these are understood today. As Gita says elsewhere (IV:13) "According to differentiation of attributes and actions (in man), I have created the four castes"

All human beings confined to a physical body inherit at birth the body identified (kayastha) caste of Sudra. The two physical eyes reveal to man nothing but an outer world of duality. After spiritual initiation by a guru, a devotee learns to open his spiritual eye, and by cultivating wisdom he enters the caste of a Vaishya; and then by fighting the senses he rises to the higher caste of a Kshatriya. Eventually, attaining God-realization, he becomes a Brahmin (one with Brahmin, Spirit).

Please read His interpretations of Gita on Varna Chapter IV, verse 13, pages 455-460 (The Lord's Modes of Action Within His Creation) where the Paramahamsa shows why the Varna system was created by the Rishis.
Right now, the way this paragraph stands - it is your interpretation of the original. I don't have anything to say about that.
Yes, it is. I am trying to emphasize my point of view. Seems like I am not succeeding.

I agree there is a difference between the two concepts - but the larger point that was made was that we bring somThis is because,ething of ourselves into another life - irrespective of the manifested qualities of our parents.
But this differentiation is very important. Because, while we acknowledge that we bring Vasanas in to the current life, we can not deny the fact that we also bring the genetic factors from our parents and family. This is because, in my opinion, our vasanas have to interact with the vasanas of others we 'chance' upon in our life (including our Degree 1 relations - our parents, our siblings, our spouse and our children). And all this is designed not only to improve our spirituality, but of those who come in to contact with us.

Beyond this specific understanding the concepts of Guna and Vasana are not important - here in this context. I am not trivializing the difference, merely pointing to the amount of weightage each concept lends in making this point.
Again, this differentiation is very important. Because Gunas you inherit reflect your role in the current life.

The function of Ishwara is present at all times, not just at the time of death and rebirth. But when a person dies the kind of experience the soul undergoes cannot be replicated when the soul enters the body (unless of course the person learns to attain some kind of a samadhi state). PY has clearly stated in several of his writings that it is we who choose to come back (a little booklet called Understanding Death gives this information). At this time of transition what is more at play is our remorse at our wrong doings and wanting to set them right (therefore take on another body) as well the law of karma. Ishwara kripa doesn't change with our mortality. PY does not even discuss the function of God in this process.
Yes, I read PY's writings on this too. But then He also talks about how others' karma interact with your own, implying that you are not the sole arbiter of the expression of your karma (for example you are born in a household where you quarrel with everyone else there, because all of them WERE PUT THERE for a purpose as they probably were your enemies in your previous lives. So, you may call it the function of Ishwara or not. My point is that e is a divine hand that chooses the next life you are going to live and what portion of your lifetime's accumulated karma phala is going to be realized in that life.

These souls must have earned and worked for these benefits in their previous lives. Of course Ishwara kripa must have been there to attain their respective states.
Agreed. Again, I said this to reference the point that an individual soul does not have the exclusive custody on it's rebirth. This is illustrated vividly by the Upanishad story where the Rishi Kaushika, who was quick to anger to burn a bird, got 'educated' by a housewife and a butcher.
Sattva Guna is perhaps not the only way to attain liberation. But it is perhaps the best way.
If one believes that there are different ways to attain Moksha irrespective of one's station in life (meaning the natural born Guna), this statement comes across as ranking the birth. This is where 'free will' can liberate anyone irrespective of their born traits. This is why the Bhakthi Yoga is as valid as the other three paths to Him. When you say that 'Sattva Guna is perhaps the best way to attain liberation', I beg to disagree. This is why, for those of us who can not go beyond the 'Sudra' ways, there is Bhakthis. and for a vaishya there is Bhakthi and Karma yoga; for a Kshtriya there is Bhakthi, Karma and Gnana yoga and then for a Brahmin there is Bhakthi, Karma, Gnana and Raja Yoga. There is nothing delianated as 'best'.

To attain liberation one must be able to connect with that inner self which is usually achieved consciously by a calm state of mind. This is definitely closer to Sattva Guna. All of our yoga-based scriptures say this.
Yes, this is true if you are reflective as an intellectual.
Of course soldiers and warriors who die in a just cause achieve liberation.
I agree.
I am sure that there are similar injunctions for other sections of the society.

Point is, working toward one's liberation can happen in two ways - (1) an automatic process of evolution which happens just by us dying and being reborn (2) by an active process of yogic intervention whereby one takes control of one's spiritual evolution and exercises determination to achieve liberation. To follow the latter path Sattva Guna has been deemed best by several stalwarts including PY.
I agree with the first statement, but not with the second. Because, one can be born predominantly with tamasic or rajasic guna and can still attain salvation through either Karma or Bhakthi yoga. To think that all Sudras or Vaishyas can not attain salvation is not consistent with with the what the scriptures say. Gunas are not by themselves relect good or evil. They reflect the workings of this material world, and as such reflect our society and He has given us various tools, irrespective of our mental capacity the ability to reach Him.

Pranams,
KRS

(contd...)
 
Dear Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji, I continue with 'blue'.

(...contd)

Until my last posting we hadn't gotten into the Varna part. I specifically said we'd take this piece by piece. So on the Guna-Vasana aspect I am assuming that you concede that some part of who we are we bring with us from other lives. Of course we use our effort in this life to work on the material we brought with us - which has, to some extent, been shaped by our parents and environment.
My postings so far about Guna is related to the varna concept that is expounded by Sri Saab Ji. Guna without the Varna connection is not meaningful, as expounded by Sri Saab ji.
So I am proceeding from that premise.

I don't know which specific posting of Sri Saab you are referring to - I'd appreciate it if you give me specific pointers next time so that I can go back and check if I agree with your interpretation of his posting.

To me, his posting #70 on this thread deals with some Varna concepts. He is basically saying the Varna system should not be looked at as a division of labor but a division of talent. From this standpoint he is arguing that such talent is inheritable - it seems like a reasonable argument - a musician's daughter could inherit a similar singing voice - there is a whole nature-nurture argument going on here but I am willing to concede that DNA does have some power. This part of his argument can actually be more flushed out by both sides of the argument.
The whole crux of his argument in question is what you cite:He is basically saying the Varna system should not be looked at as a division of labor but a division of talent.
There is nowhere in our scriptures that this statement is substantiated. I can quote fron the most conservative view of Mahaperaival all the way to our reformers os Hinduism (Sri Vivekanada Ji and others, including Paramahamsa Yoganada Ji) to substantiate this claim. What this claims is that the 'talent' of a person born in to different castes are different.

This raises the question, 'what talent?'

So, if one then draws the conclusion that the BORN ''Brahmins' are natuarally talented with the 'Brahminical life' and the born 'Kshatriyas' have the talent for their Dharma and so on, then this coclusion is true.

BUT IN REAL LIFR, THIS ASSUMPTION IS FALSE, as you see the capabilities of all folks around oneself in real lufe.

There is another part where he says Brahmin is a Brahmin by birth - and he ascribes it to the DNA part.

I accept 'Brahmin by Brahmin by birth' concept as long as those Brahmins fulfill the role and the concept of the Brahmin varna. Please read 'A Day in the life of a Brahmin' by Maha Periaval in His 'Hindu Dharma' as to what a Brahmin is supposed to do in his daily life. A Brahmin who is born a brahmin nowadays, in my opinion, is born with enormous responsibilities to bear in the religious life (not in secular life).

You are arguing that it is the qualities that make one a Brahmana - those are not necessarily inherited.
Yes. This is because what MahaPeraval Has said: Brahmins today, who are doing good in the secular world are benefiting from their previous history that trained them in the intellectual role in the Varna Dharma. He says that it is like driving a bicycle - the cycle will only go as far as the pedallar is engaged in fulfilling the original Varna Dharma that is expected of this caste.

He is arguing that those qualities are inherited - either through one's own karma phala or by DNA, or by virtue of being raised in a Brahminical environment - or perhaps a combination of all three.
The problem with his argument is that his aversion that the Varna is connected to 'talent'. What is 'talent' as represented by Varna? Is a 'Sudra' then inferior to a 'Brahmin'? What defines this stratification of 'talent'? So, just by being born in to a 'Brahmin' family, (which I did), makes me better (one has to define 'better') than a person who was born in a family that was subservient to my family, even thpugh that person was superior intellectually to me? Why?
How can anybody resolve this argument?
I don't know. But our arguments are 180 degrees apart. So, please apply logic and come to a valid conclusion.
Is there not truth in both?
i DON'T THINK SO,
You are emphasizing self-effort too much - he is emphasizing inherited qualities too much.
But, I hope, I have shown that it has nothing to do with inherited qualities as defined by him.
Sri KRS, whenever there has been anybody in this forum who has called you names I have stopped and checked that kind of language.
Yes, I know this, and I am deeply appreciative.
It is that same sense of fairness that prompts me to write this - how can you use the term "brand of folks"? How can you brand people like that? If you disagree with something you are welcome but this statement and the words that follow below show disdain. How can that be acceptable?
This is a very fair question. I do not want to 'brand' certaiin group of folks who may differ with my opinion on this topic. But my disdain is perhaps towards those folks who claim to speak for our Hindu community as a whole who tend to not look at us as a part of whole humanity but as the pieces of different castes. If this is what you mena, then I stand properly accused.
Pray, give us the significance of this question. To me it seems like - does the glove fit the hand or the hand fit the glove?

Tell us why the resolution of this question, or more specifically, your way of looking at this issue is so important that the opposite camp has to abandon its stance.
Again, I have already given my response.

I hope you are not saying that all the knowledge and wisdom these gurus chose to impart have been written out by them in books - and that the understanding and wisdom gained from direct Guru-contact is the same as reading books written by them.
No, I do not. But at the same time, There are ceratain FUNDAMENTAL truths of Hinduism, that can not be mis interpreted.
Sri Saab, in my understanding, mentioned that the kind of nuanced understanding you seek can be imparted only by a guru.
Unless those truths are against the 'fundamental' truths of our religion.
That is his opinion of course. But I hope the larger point I made is not lost.
'Opinion' is relative. But what Sri Saab says has no foundation in our scriptures. But if you want to argue that what i am saying is just to oppose his valid views, then it is okay. I would then request you to substantiate his claims.
Hope I have made my position clearer. If not, please let me know.

Pranams,
KRS

Regards,
Chintana

Regards,
KRS
 
I have been reading the number of Posts on this subject. Very interesting to read.Most of them are well documented and supported by scriptural authorities. But the discussions on Varna and Caste have become only academic interest. All the varnas have left their prescribed duties long back. Starting with Brahmins, even the caste sir names were left 60 or 70 years back.Till the last generation the caste division was only used for marriage alliances. We were meticulous in selecting girls and boys by matching horoscopes, Gothra and social status for marriage. That too is crumbling at present due to economic emancipation of men and women. Easy mixing of Youngsters in work places in India and abroad facilitate selection of partners by themselves by "meeting and eating" without Caste or Varna distinctions. The word "Divorce" which was considered hush hush word in olden days is cropping up in many Brahmin families on flimsy reasons today. Let us be honest in evaluating changes in our Social structure.

Days are not far away that we may have to protect the few families of true Brahmins who live according to ancient division of Varnasrama (as enunciated in Gita by the Lord which I had quoted in my Post #11 on this tread) just like the "old Agraharams" which are now declared as Heritage sites.

I am sorry for my pessimistic views. Though Varnasrama had not harmed Brahmins who followed their duties strictly at one time, the fast changes in our social and economic structure has made Varnasrama and Caste distinctions irrelevant in the modern Hindu Society today and nobody can stop these changes.

Regards,
Brahmanyan.
 
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Dear Sri Brahmanyan Ji,

Thank you for your response above. I know Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji is pre-occupied with her day job right now and is extremely busy. I expect her to come back in the not too far distant future to continue our conversations here.

The impetus of my arguments here is to illustrate the points you have very beautifully summarized above.

1. Unless we follow the Varna Dharma in it's entirety as prescribed, we can not call ourselves as Varna Brahmins.

2. Being born in to a Brhamin family alone does not confer the title 'Brahmin' to anyone. In this sense doing a fraction of karmas ordained of a Brahmin today, while making a living in the 'secular' world does make one, a 'Brahmin' by culture and custom and not by Dharma and Guna. So a majority of us have become a 'shell' of the Varna Brahminhood and instead are, what I would call 'Jathi Brahmins'.

3. But there are a few who are still following the Varna Dharma 100% and that number is shrinking. And it behooves us all, who are 'Jathi Brahmins' to protect and support these 'Dharma Brahmins' both financially and morally.

4. The macro changes are going to continue to happen. We can either cry foul and cling on to a notion that somehow we will all get back to the 'golden' yester years of thousands of years ago, or we can adapt to the circumstances and contribute to the modern society in a selfless manner wherever possible, for the uplift of the entire society. This is now our Dharma. I believe, we can strengthen our community within the parameters of the global civilizational march, by updating and preserving the roots of our culture that we need right now.

5. I understand that there is a large section of our clan who are still very orthodox and conservative and they have every right to be so. My issue is not with those. My issue is with a narrow band of folks who are intent on stipulating what Hinduism is and what it is not. These folks do not recognize any modern interpretations of Hinduism at all. In my opinion, this attitude of not accepting other's views of Hinduism (still based on the preachings and words of some of our modern pure souls) is precisely the reason that Hindus, especially TBs, are fractured, both culturally and politically.

Pranams,
KRS
 
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How Varna/Caste System Harmed Brahmins.

Dear Sri K.R.S.,

I fully agree with your views . I always believe that the strength of a Community lies in accepting the reality and open for changes according to the needs of the circumstances. Tamil Brahmin community is the best example of this. During the past generations we accepted many Social changes without destroying our core beliefs and structure of the community.Varna/Caste is one among them. Others in the Hindu Society followed us or sought the comfort of changes in other Religions. Senior person like your good self belonging to my generation would have been a part of these changes. First it started with our personality, Tufts have gone.Outward caste symbols changed to bare minimum. Followed by mode of Dress, eating habits, Plan of houses, mixing of Castes in living places etc. Modern education opened up new fields of jobs to Brahmins. Our women folk also did not lag behind men in all these fields. Many among our community left our traditional education and entered the portals of secular educational systems introduced by the British.

Culture is vibrant. Advancement is revolution. A static society reluctant to accept changes cannot survive long. Though we show initial reservation for changes due to our cautious approach to accept radical changes in the proven social systems, we readily accept them once we found that the changes will not affect our core beliefs. This trait we will find among the followers of two other ancient Religious beliefs, the Jews and Parsees.

To be an orthodox or conservative is not sin. These great people only preserved all our national treasures Vedas, Itihasas, Puranas, Dharma Sastras, Art, Music, Literature, and all other great things we flaunt as our glorious past to the world today. These great men and women who preserved deserve our gratitude.

Politically Tamil Brahmin community may be insignificant due to lack of numerical strength in the present system of electoral Democracy. That should not bother us too much. An intelligent person always influences others by his/her honest and rational views. Let us follow our Dharma and set up our moral standards high. The results will follow. Through out my life I have found most, I mean most of the people in other communities are good to us. Many of them took care of our Veda Patasalas, Temples and Mutts by munificent financial support. Today, there may be differences due to political or economical reasons. That we find every where in the world.

Regards,
Brahmanyan.
 
The Brahmins of the early Vedic period who first thought of the Varnashrama system were great Rishis. Their idea of the system was entirely different from what it turned out to be later.

The rigid Varna system was not their idea. It is a total corruption of the original concept.

The Varna Dharma as originally envisaged classified the Brahmins as an Intellectual class. The corrupt caste system believes that you bacame a Brahmin by birth.

How was the Hindu society especially the Brahmins affected by the rigid caste system?

I am not talking about the divisions caused by it and the atrocities committed in its name. We have one too many books detailing all that. This thread is not about that.

There is no way to ensure that all the people born in the same family have 140+ IQ. When this is not true of any family it is foolish to think an entire community would consist of high IQ intellectuals. Again application varies from person to person. Even a high IQ is not suffecient.

Vedas are extremely difficult to learn and recite. There is a lot of emphasis on the pronunciation, utterance of letters, and intonation. This requires a more than average IQ and tremendous application.

There is write up about it here.

http://www.svbf.org/sringeri/journal/vol1no2/chanting.html

In the early Vedic period only those who had these abilities were chosen for this job. Other than reciting the Vedas, they were expected to seek Brahman. That is why this class of people were called Brahmins or the seekers of Brahman.

They were chosen by their ability and not by birth.

Our caste system was not like the Japanese caste syatem, which placed the Samuarais (Warriors) at the top.

In later years the caste system became more rigid and only those who were Brahmins by birth were expected to recite the Vedas.

What the caste system did not take into account was that you can not group people like you group inanimate things. No two human being are the same.

This had an unintended effect on the community. Not all the children of Brahmins could recite the Vedas properly. Their mental abilities also varied. Many of them did not have the right aptitude. A life devoted to seeking the Brahman was not everybody's cup of tea.

It was easier for the Kshatriyas. You can become a king even if you are not courageous and are not a good fighter.

But learning of the Vedas is not like that. You either have the ability or you do not. There is no midway. We find a number of Purohits who do not know how to recite the Mantras properly or have knowledge about the rituals even after years of training.

In the engineering college we had to learn carpentary. In spite of my best efforts I could not master it. My teacher was from the carpenter community. One day I remarked to him that it was easy for him because he is born in the community. He told that he learnt it only by years of practice and not by birth and said that his son is not a good carpenter in spite of his best efforts to teach him carpentary.

The Brahmins who by birth did not have the mental abilities to recite the Vedas had to choose some other professsion.

But the Varna Dharma prevented that. Though some of the smiritis did speak of the professions which a Brahmin could take up when he is in distress it was not practical.

The injunction about the Brahmins not seeking riches applied only to the Veda reciting Brahmins who were very happy seeking Brahman. People respected them and gave them Dhana.

But what about the Brahmin who could not recite the Vedas? Should he idle away his time cursing the fate which has made him take birth in a Brahmin family? He was neither respected nor given Dhana.

The Brahmins started seeking ways and means of earning a living. Even 1000 years back they had sought other professions as evidenced by the drama Mricchakatika where the hero Charudatta is a merchant. The thief in the play is also a Brahmin. This play also revals a startling fact that only Male Brahmins were allowed to speak Sanskrit. Women and other castes were not allowed to even speak Sanskrit. What a horrible system?

Varna Dharma which bound people to a particular profession enslaved the Brahmins and other castes and prevented individuals from developing according to their own aptitude and ability.

Throughout history it is seen that progress has been made only by individual efforts. Individuals have changed the society. Society in general does not like changes. But individuals by their efforts have brought about a change. Hinduism more than any other religion emphasizes the individual. It always talks about the relationship between the individual and the supreme God.

If the Brahmin community had confined themselves to what was enjoined by the Varna Dharma, they would have become extinct by now. The Brahmins have survived and prospered because all of them did not follow the Varna system.

The varna system reduced the Brahmins to a class of mendicants or worse.

Again Manu Smirti expressly forbids any men of the three twice-born castes from dwelling in any other country other than Aryavarta. Arya varta did not include the Deccan peninsula.

The brahmins broke this rule in order to survive.

I remember one of our respected Brahmin administrators speaking proudly in an interview that one of the herditary profesion of the Tamil Brahmins was Culinary art. I used to make an annual trip to Chennai during the Music season. It was not only the music, but also the food served by Arusuvai Natarajan and Jnanambica mess which attracted us.

Let us dump the varna system to the dust bin of history. Let us forget the racial theory that anyone is born superior because he was born in a community.

All the great Tamil Brahmins like Ramana Maharishi, Swami Sivananda, Ramnujam, C.V. Raman and a host of others became great due to their own efforts and not because they were born Brahmins.



Being still fairly new to the forum, I happened to read this original article which has given 20 pages of replies and comments from many. The original article is so beautiful in itself, that I would like to show my appreciation by not adding any more comments or views to it.
 
Kindly permit me to say some words here.

The word 'varnam' itself is open to differing interpretations and many of them are either irrelevant or meaningless today.

I also concur with the view that mere birth into a brahmin family does not make anyone a brahmin, automatically. Birth into a particular family is just an enabling (or hindering) aspect.

Again, I do not fully subscribe to the view that learning holy scriptures and practicing
them rigourously alone make one a true brahmin. This doesn't mean I am against these.

Narrow-mindedness or Closed-mindedness mars our outlook and behaviour. Let us follow all good things in life, according to own convictions and beliefs obtained over a period of time, without any taboos or misconceptions standing in between.

I have gained good knowledge and experience from all sorts of people, whatever caste or group they belong to. Similarly, I never hesitated to correct myself whenever many people, regardless of their background, challenged my views and finally convinced me to change mine or accept theirs too.

'Caste' is just a mark or identification which can be left or acquired afresh, by anyone,
as one wishes. It is both a matter of pride and a matter of shame, depending on the
context and circumstances. Hence, it shall not be taken to decide one's identity on a permanent basis.

As a brahmin, I have more friends from other communities - may be out of social necessity or compulsion - who have gladly accepted me into their fold and treat me as one among them. By my belonging to them, I feel they also belong to me. This is subject to the condition, we share similar views, ideals and values in our respective realms or professions.

I wish to conclude by saying this. Choice of one's parents is not in one's hands. Hence, without dwelling too much on this (birth), let us choose our correct life-path.
 
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Oral Info

>>What the caste system did not take into account was that you can not group people like you group inanimate things. No two human being are the same.<<

I believe in ancient era's,they had checks and balances to ascertain,the traits,in a human.Unless and untill the benchmark as ascertained by the guru,the shisya,will have to undergo,the neccessary,experiance to learn.

In order to have administrative comfort for the ruler's as well as socio-economic changes of yesteryears,people got grouped by birth itself,and asked to lead a format specified.Its been a slow gradual process of trial & error as it is even today.

We do not remember our past lives and some of us,including me when i was aged 13,categorical went about saying,there is only one life,live it with dignity and honor,which will make your family proud,your community proud,your city proud,your state proud,your country proud and finally,the lord proud.

At that time,it was my belief,that god is someone outside of me and a guru shows the way.Have a personal god,to guide you.Luckily for me,things were established as Kula Guru,Kula Daivam,Gothram....etc.

A complete record of of where my Pitrus are.How Lord teaches.

Take for instance,there was Palaki System.So,one would sit inside the Pallak and four people were needed to carry the pallak and the occupant.

Its normal human nature,that the hard physical labor,be done by the strongest physically.In those ancient times,by virtue of eating habits,ability,intellectual clarity,business acumen to trade....etc had its bearings for classification.

Even now,When we read Bhagavath Gita,the Lord,talks about personality traits existing in human beings.In todays nomenclature,we have labor unions,managerial class,executive class,director class.etc..as it suits the time.Something, like old wine in new bottle.

The bottom line is,survival of the fittest.By Lords grace,the fittest survive.Constantly we have re-innovate ourselves,and be independent,without depending on anybody else.:peep:

sb

:):hippie:
 
>>What the caste system did not take into account was that you can not group people like you group inanimate things. No two human being are the same.<<

I believe in ancient era's,they had checks and balances to ascertain,the traits,in a human.Unless and untill the benchmark as ascertained by the guru,the shisya,will have to undergo,the neccessary,experiance to learn.

In order to have administrative comfort for the ruler's as well as socio-economic changes of yesteryears,people got grouped by birth itself,and asked to lead a format specified.Its been a slow gradual process of trial & error as it is even today.

We do not remember our past lives and some of us,including me when i was aged 13,categorical went about saying,there is only one life,live it with dignity and honor,which will make your family proud,your community proud,your city proud,your state proud,your country proud and finally,the lord proud.

At that time,it was my belief,that god is someone outside of me and a guru shows the way.Have a personal god,to guide you.Luckily for me,things were established as Kula Guru,Kula Daivam,Gothram....etc.

A complete record of of where my Pitrus are.How Lord teaches.

Take for instance,there was Palaki System.So,one would sit inside the Pallak and four people were needed to carry the pallak and the occupant.

Its normal human nature,that the hard physical labor,be done by the strongest physically.In those ancient times,by virtue of eating habits,ability,intellectual clarity,business acumen to trade....etc had its bearings for classification.

Even now,When we read Bhagavath Gita,the Lord,talks about personality traits existing in human beings.In todays nomenclature,we have labor unions,managerial class,executive class,director class.etc..as it suits the time.Something, like old wine in new bottle.

The bottom line is,survival of the fittest.By Lords grace,the fittest survive.Constantly we have re-innovate ourselves,and be independent,without depending on anybody else.:peep:

sb

:):hippie:

hi sb
yes .. you are right...varna system is still in this world..varna means
color in sanskrit.. here we called white american, black american,
hispanic american, indian american etc... we call white collar job/
blue collar job etc...old wine in new bottle....human society
cannot survive without varna system.....may be different names..

regards
tbs
 
hi sb
yes .. you are right...varna system is still in this world..varna means
color in sanskrit.. here we called white american, black american,
hispanic american, indian american etc... we call white collar job/
blue collar job etc...old wine in new bottle....human society
cannot survive without varna system.....may be different names..

regards
tbs

I must agree...people accept the new varna system....as quoted by tbs....if we observe better....it all indicates about various races or nature of jobs....of course the spiritual race is excluded in recent times...just that the new varna system allows people from subsequent generations to jump to another varna of choice
 
I had read a posting by KRS. This posting was made a loooong time ago by him.

Originally Posted by KRS

Please read the following chapter in 'Hindu Dharma' by MahaPeriaval HH Sri Chandrasekhara swamigal, to learn about why our fore fathers left their native agraharams. He presents a very logical argument for it.

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap6.htm

After reading through the contents, I now feel the title of this discussion itself is wrong. It is the brahmins who have harmed the varna system and not the other way around.

Maha Periyaval has clearly admonished Brahmins for the root cause of degradation of the varna system in the past 150 years. I cant but accept our fault as a society of Brahmins.
 
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