Imbalanced Criticism of India by those who left India , NRI, PIO, OCI ....

[sarma-61]

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What kind of description it this, worms wrigling in a cesspool ? if thats the sort of self esteem people within the country carry, then why blame those abroad, they have atleast seen better conditions prevailing and may be have a right to critisize us.

And as far a comparisons go, I heard that one cannot walk out free in France without being mugged. in south africa, most parts of the country is out of bounds for tourist walking alone, In muslim countries non muslims cant eat anything openly during ramzan, that apart there are n number of restricions do and dont dos, god knows what all befalls people in bamboo curtain counties, Compared to all those we live in free state, except for certain parts of the country, one can live free on the roads and breath the fresh air, without the smell of gun power lacing your nostrils, if after all that people find india represive than god help them

Shri arun kumar sir,

I am sorry that due to my lack of command of English, some misunderstanding has arisen. What I really wanted to convey was that the people who have made foreign country as their new home country, have this feeling that India is a very backward, dirty and unhygienic country and the people here are like uncultured and not very valuable human beings. (For example, the West treats an Indian soldier as only one-twentieth the value of a US soldier and the monetary compensation is based on that ratio; hence US asked for Indian contingent to fight its war in Iraq, but luckily, India refused!

So, I was trying to give the foreign-Indian's view point of India but now I realize, it was a very bad mix-up. Kindly pardon me. Hope the matter is clear now.

PS. Pl. see post # 4. civic problems make some of these people to avoid visiting India; so, is it not clear that at least for some of them India's civic condition is very bad?

 

[Brahmanyan]

"Comparisons are odious" thus goes the saying used by the Bard in "Much Ado About Nothing"
meaning comparing people of dissimilar standards will result in unpleasantness. India cannot be compared with any other Country in the world, not even China or Russia.We are different from each other in Religion, Language, Caste and community across the Nation, with strong allegiance towards them.

Our History will tell how this Country has been the victim of continuous plunder by foreigners. All the Religions from across the borders invaded to convert the hapless poor of this Country. Even today what we have is a Union of States, and not the India that our Constitution makers envisaged.

A nation is not a coloured Map in the Atlas, but it is madeup of humans - its citizens. It was after Independence only we tried to unify ourselves as a Nation called India. Just 65 years
is a miniscule period in a Nation's History. We are also facing all the difficulty of a newly freed nation. Please look around us to find how safe and free we are. Comparing ourselves with the conditions prevailing in economically advanced Nations like USA and European Countries or small city states like Singapore is not correct.

Unfortunately we do not have enlightened Political Leadership to take this Nation forward.

This is a vast subject and needs deep study.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[v arun kumar]

Sarma 61, no need to be apologetic, i guess i was too harsh, i take it back

 

[Yamaka]

Having lived outside India for most of my adult life while having benefited by the best of what India offered to me in my teen years I always feel a certain sense of gratitude to which I will never be able to repay.

Perhaps because of this feeling, I tend to notice imbalanced criticism of India by people of Indian Origin living outside India . It is especially noteworthy that the same people are willing to defend their new found homeland and if they tended to offer criticism it seems more balanced.

I have seen people of Chinese origin , even those from Taiwan being proud of accomplishments of people of main land China.
Jewish Americans who have never been to state of Israel always speak of Israel with highest respect.

I am not trying to generalize but based on my minimal samples of interactions I find People of Indian Origin being more harsh towards India compared to any other nationalities & the views they hold about their mother-country.

One could sense this trend even in the posts of a few people of Indian origin in this forum as well.

Comments welcome!

Dear Dr. tks Avl:

I get the feeling you don't like criticism, in general.

I see that you have hedged yourself by saying "I am not trying to generalize, but based on my minimal samples of interactions..."

Whatever may be your view of the world, here is mine -

1. I like criticism very much. And my only hope is it is CONSTRUCTIVE.. for example, if I point out some flaw in the Indian system, I must give some Solutions to solve it. Usually I do.

2. Recently I had a talk with a bitter critic of India, who asked "Y, tell me what we can be proud of India, knowing what all you know?"

I immediately I said, "Well, in spite of overwhelming Poverty, India has a thriving Democracy, very similar to US - although both are dysfunctional as of today!"

Then, he asked, "What good is that?". I said, "Democracy is a good thing... but we must see that it's not abused to the point of being useless and dysfunctional!".

The argument continues...

3. I am one of those writers here who compare and contrast with China & India every turn of the way.

This comparison is very useful to assess the progress we make... many compare India to the US, which is very absurd and cruel.

I maintain that we MUST constantly compare and contrast with China, the neighboring most populous country, who could very well eat our lunch if we become militarily and economically very weak. This is a warning to all the Nationalists out there wide eyed.

Clearly, I am not a Nationalist, as I quickly became a US citizen at the earliest point in time, although some of my friends in their 60s still keep their Indian passport for no known advantage!

4. I have written extensively about the Divided, and thus very WEAK India because of Poverty, Religion, Caste and Language...

This is a REAL practical problem. And we must find a practical Solution to it...

Innum varumm..

Regards.

Y

 

[C RAVI]

"Comparisons are odious" thus goes the saying used by the Bard in "Much Ado About Nothing"
meaning comparing people of dissimilar standards will result in unpleasantness. India cannot be compared with any other Country in the world, not even China or Russia.We are different from each other in Religion, Language, Caste and community across the Nation, with strong allegiance towards them.

Our History will tell how this Country has been the victim of continuous plunder by foreigners. All the Religions from across the borders invaded to convert the hapless poor of this Country. Even today what we have is a Union of States, and not the India that our Constitution makers envisaged.

A nation is not a coloured Map in the Atlas, but it is madeup of humans - its citizens. It was after Independence only we tried to unify ourselves as a Nation called India. Just 65 years
is a miniscule period in a Nation's History. We are also facing all the difficulty of a newly freed nation. Please look around us to find how safe and free we are. Comparing ourselves with the conditions prevailing in economically advanced Nations like USA and European Countries or small city states like Singapore is not correct.

Unfortunately we do not have enlightened Political Leadership to take this Nation forward.

This is a vast subject and needs deep study.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Very well said Shri Brahmanyam..Absolutely right conclusion.

Political leadership in India is unfortunately pathetic and that's how and why Corruption and Exploitation is dancing in its might and establishing Fatalism and Poverty in India.

It's only we Aam Admi/Aam Jantha of India who are all keeping the spirit of National Patriotism. Many are the NRI'S, PIO'S who share the same spirit. Unfortunately there are few NRI's, PIO's who all hold wrong ideas about India. Ironically many seem to be not understanding that poverty and the poor civic/administrative plight of India is due to corrupted/dirty politics, otherwise of which atleast each of Indian major cities can be as glittering as Dubai.

 

[Yamaka]

Very well said Shri Brahmanyam..Absolutely right conclusion.

Political leadership in India is unfortunately pathetic and that's how and why Corruption and Exploitation is dancing in its might and establishing Fatalism and Poverty in India.

It's only we Aam Admi/Aam Jantha of India who are all keeping the spirit of National Patriotism. Many are the NRI'S, PIO'S who share the same spirit. Unfortunately there are few NRI's, PIO's who all hold wrong ideas about India. Ironically many seem to be not understanding that poverty and the poor civic/administrative plight of India is due to corrupted/dirty politics, otherwise of which atleast each of Indian major cities can be as glittering as Dubai.

Dear Ravi:

How will you get Political Leadership, anyway? From outside??

It's People who elect the Political Leadership!!! We have Elections, local and national, very regularly.

Then, ask yourself "Why People are not making the good CHOICES, if any?"

"What keeps "good leaders" from coming to the fore?"

Many Indians will throw their hands up in the air and say, "Nammaa Thalai Ezhuthinga...Yaar Kanda... Antha Aandavaa... Why you keep us like this?"

My simple answer to all this is the RF / TF... this MINDSET should go away to get to the bottom of the problems, if any.

Wait & watch.



ps. If India gets the Petroleum reserves of the Dubai and UAE, then our cities will be shining....the Qn is How will we get those Petroleum Reserves in India? Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

To me
Janani janmabhoomishcha swargadapi gariyasi’’, well illustrates this sentiment. Janani (mother) and janmabhoomi (motherland) are more exalted than even swarg (heaven).

Having said that I do realize that we can improve on lot of front. I still have the values of ester years. India has moved on. The culture has changed, priorities have changed. But they are progressing on all fronts. We NRI's do crib about lack of amenities, civic sense, and the increased corruption. But generally because we have seen better places, and trying to encourage India to move in that direction.

People in India accept the status quo and work around it, the NRI do not know current practices or not comfortable with them, and complain.

But a person who claims to hate India is a deshdrohi, and despicable human being, he should be banned from entering the country, and should be shunned by everybody who loves India.

 

[Yamaka]

What Made Me Happy and Unhappy recently?

1. Last week President Obama conferred the National Medal for Humanities to Dr. Amartya Sen - the Pride, Promise and Conscience of India.

Although I refuse to get infected with the pathology of Jingoistic Nationalist, I was very happy for Dr. Sen.

Then I asked, as usual, for the 1200 million people, where are the 100 Dr. Sens, 100 Oscar Rahmans, 100 Dr. Venki Venketaramans, 100 Sachin Tandulkars etc ?

Some Nationalists pride in saying "You know, India has the 4th largest economy in the world?"

I ask, "Yes, $2 trillion GDP economy by 1200 million people! What's the big deal about it?".

What we mostly lack is the SENSE of Proportion! Lol.

2, Recently, Mamta Banerjee said, "Oh, this 37 year old woman says that she was raped by armed policemen.... she says this to malign my name / name of WB!"

I was pained to read this... instead of saying,"In WB, no one will be raped by anybody... I will get to the bottom of this issue, right away.... My heart goes out for the Victim".

I was very sad to read that Kerala and TN are on a War-Like posture on the Mullaiperiyar Dam!

I thought "How sad. We are the same People! We have millions of families with ties across the border... why we fight like this over this MD. Just ask a non partisan Professional Engineers (from both Kerala & TN) to give their unvarnished FACTS on the condition of the MD, then go from there!"

Very sad...

More later..

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi:

How will you get Political Leadership, anyway? From outside??

It's People who elect the Political Leadership!!! We have Elections, local and national, very regularly.

Then, ask yourself "Why People are not making the good CHOICES, if any?"

"What keeps "good leaders" from coming to the fore?"

Many Indians will throw their hands up in the air and say, "Nammaa Thalai Ezhuthinga...Yaar Kanda... Antha Aandavaa... Why you keep us like this?"

My simple answer to all this is the RF / TF... this MINDSET should go away to get to the bottom of the problems, if any.

Wait & watch.



ps. If India gets the Petroleum reserves of the Dubai and UAE, then our cities will be shining....the Qn is How will we get those Petroleum Reserves in India? Cheers.

Shri Yamaka,

Compared to Abu Dhabi, Dubai's Petroleum Reserves are nothing. Just nothing.

Dubai could have its advancement booms purely due to its ruler who is the Prime Minister & Vice President of U.A.E as well.

He is a visionary and changed Dubai to a completely different world. Many people of other countries even think that Dubai is the capital of U.A.E. Dubai's prime Economic growth is purely due to Trading, Constructions/Real Estate and Tourism. (Dubai is now doomed in it's Construction Industry due to financial crises)

The systems in Dubai are as such that, Locals would never bear the brunt of shortage even if there exists high no. of expatriates. The rulership and administrative strategies are very much for the betterment of the country and country men.

India is a highly resourceful country. Natural resources, cultiviable land, technical advancements, human resources/intellectuals are more than enough for India to be extremely productive and economically high.

Misproportion of resources/funds by corrupt politicians who all are focused to swindle in order to fill their pockets are the FATALISTIC reasons behind India's poverty and poor state of affairs.

Yes, I agree, Indian politicians are none other that local Indians, from among Aam Jantha. But they are the people who could come to power by hook or crook. They are the people who are all going against their consciousness, righteousness, moral principles and do all dirty politics for their benefit. They are those ruling people who all never bothers about "Nammaa Thalai Ezhuthinga...Yaar Kanda... Antha Aandavaa... Why you keep us like this?" They are highly rationalistic people who could use all their talents to cheat Indian citizens and swindle Governemnt Money.

Not only ignorant poor folks but even educated elite folks are duped with their hopes of good and corruption free Goverence, by these filthy politicians. What else ordniray folks can do irrespective of whether they belong to INDIA91% OR INDIA9%?. The only difference is INDIA9% could make their better living some how living in this corrupted country. Poor people bear the brunt more and continue to suffer.

INDIA91% is also living in all the ways and means possible, by hook or crook, doing something or other in order to make their survival. But still they couldn't come out from the pathetic plight. All because of wide spread Corruption and Exploitation.

Unless the leadership/ruling class gets reformed, INDIA91% gonna continue to exists.

If INDIA91% stop producing children and their population gets declined in due course of time, still the plight of India would continue. The corrupted politician would come up with their own unique and effective strategies to fool people and swallow money. They would have earning opportunities more from foreign infiltrations/terrorism etc.

Atleast we can say that, INDIA91% is highly contributing man power for INDIAN DEFENCE- ARMY/AIRFORCE/NAVY/CRPF/BSF/STF, to which INDIA9% would hardly contribute.

It's a big game Shri Yamaka. Unless Indian politics gets better and Indian Politicians don't indulge in Corruption and Exploitation, nothing can work better for INDIA91%.

India is a great nation. Indians are highly patriotic towards their nations. Indians are extremely hard workers. With no doubt India is a highly resourcefull country and have sufficient man power. It's all due to filthy Indian Politics governed by corrupted politicians that is still keeping India as a Developing Country. Otherwise of which India could have been in the list of Well developed Nations, by now.

 

[Nara]

.....It is not as if non-resident Indians are not aware of India's development or progress, but they have better things to do than being vociferous in internet forums!!

I would also like to draw your attention to the large Indian diaspora in Middle East and South East Asian nations, but their observations are more nuanced than their cousins in North Ameican countries of USA and Canada. Needless to say their contribution to India's growth in the form of NRE/FCNR deposits will dwarf the contributions of the atlantic group many times over.

Well Narayan, let me try to understand what you are saying, (i) NRIs are aware of development in India, (ii) those NRIs have better things to do than come to forums like this one, and (iii) NRI deposits from USA and Canada are but a fraction of such deposits from NRIs living in other countries.

The message you want to convey is quite clear, yet, you have allowed enough vagueness in these statements you can easily just deny it -- don't blame all NRIs, not even the NRIs from North America, it is only these people from USA and Canada who write in this forum, they are the ones levelling these criticisms never acknowledging any of the real achievements.

Let us see who these posters from USA & Canada can be. In the past this list included myself, KRS, Yamaka, and Kunjuppu. I don't think any of you guys will say anything about KRS. That leaves the three of us, even though I rarely ever get into China/India topics.

From what I am able to gather, one of the issues is comparing India with China. Some may feel such comparisons are unreasonable, fair enough. But, as far as I understand, such comparisons by K and Y, (I myself have not participated in India/China discussions much) are along the lines of an yearning to see India succeed and be an economic powerhouse like China. This is seen as "shrill noise" of criticism of India, even by you Narayan? Such remarks from people whose intellectual DNA does not permit anything but sniping and snide remarks is to be expected, but not from you.

There is another strain I see in these posts, and that is, any criticism of Hindutva is a criticism of India itself. To them, right or wrong, no criticism of India can be tolerated. But, Hindutva people don't get to define what is what is not criticism of India. India is lot bigger than Hindutva forces. In many ways, these Hindutva touting hyper-jingoists are the worst enemies of the country they purport to revere.

Speaking for myself, I have never shied away from criticizing of my adopted country, but that does not mean my allegiance to USA is any less than those hyper-jingoist Hindutva counterparts here in America. Similarly, though I have tons and tons of criticism about India, I am second to none when it comes to love for India.

Finally, "Who Loves India More" contests are silly, and may I add, stupid.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

It is surprising that so called rationalist, have never found anything to praise in Hinduism, India, or Indians. They have every reason to troll from one thread to other only to criticize PIO, and India to put down any achievement, and then they claim that is constructive. If they were raising their children in this fashion, of constant criticism it would be termed cruelty.

There is a lot that we have to be proud off in India, these nay Sayers will never admit. They call others who admire and encourage India and Indians are called idiots!!! What audacity.

 

[Nara]

What audacity.

prasad1, stop with this shadow boxing, if you have any issue state it openly. I condemn this cowardly tactic of repeatedly sniping without naming the obvious intended target. Stick to the issues, express your views on them, provide as much evidence and logic for your views, and let us have a rational debate, simply saying they always criticize, they are all naysayers, is nothing but emotional prattle.

Who called anybody an idiot? Just don't make things up.

Thank you ....

p.s. I would like the moderators to clarify, what is the rule with respect to responses like this, one that is clearly intended to me, but not addressed to me, clearly no issues are discussed but personally derogatory remarks -- "what audacity" -- are made. Please clarify the rules with respect to this kind of posts. I am really tired of this tactic adopted by a few posters, prasad1 and ozone in particularl, repeatedly dumping on me without naming me, always using derogatory epithets, always refusing to engage in a substantive way. Why can't these guys be asked to discuss the issues and the least I am entitled to is to be named when they say nasty things about me?

 

[Yamaka]

Caste in India: A Nice Article From The Hindu 20 Feb 2012

[h=1]India's destiny not caste in stone[/h]

ANDRÉ BÉTEILLESHARE · COMMENT · PRINT · T+

THE HINDU

Outside politics, there are other areas of life in which caste consciousness has been dying down.

Those who try to keep up with discussions on current affairs in the newspapers and on television may be forgiven if they conclude that caste is India's destiny. If there is one thing the experts in the media who comment on political matters have in common, it is their preoccupation with caste and the part it plays in electoral politics.
Many are now coming to believe that, despite the undeniable demographic, technological and economic changes taking place in the country, the division into castes and communities remains the ineluctable and ineradicable feature of Indian society. They also believe that to ignore those divisions or to draw attention to other divisions such as those of income, education and occupation is to turn our backs on the ground reality. The more radical among them add that ignoring those realities amounts to an evasion of the political responsibility of redistributing the benefits and burdens of society in a more just and equitable manner.
Does nothing change in India? A great many things have in fact changed in the last 60 years both in our political perceptions and in the social reality. The leaders of the nationalist movement who successfully fought for India's freedom from colonial rule believed that India may have been a society of castes and communities in the past but would become a nation of citizens with the adoption of a new republican constitution. They were too optimistic. The Constitution did create rights for the citizen, but it did not eradicate caste from the hearts and minds of the citizens it created. For many Indians, and perhaps the majority, the habits of the heart are still the habits of a hierarchical society.
Inter-dining rules
Universal adult franchise opened up new possibilities for mobilising electoral support on the basis of caste and thus prevented the consciousness of caste from dying down. Democracy was expected to efface the distinctions of caste, but its consequences have been very different from what was expected. Politics is no doubt an important part of a nation's life in a democracy, but it is not the only part of it. There are other areas of life in which the consciousness of caste has been dying down, though not very rapidly or dramatically. The trends of change which I will now examine do not catch the attention of the media because they happen over long stretches of time, in slow motion as it were. They are not noticeable from month to month or even year to year but across two or more generations.
Let us start with the ritual opposition of purity and pollution which was a cornerstone of the hierarchical structure of caste. The rules of purity and pollution served to mark the distinctions and gradations among castes and sub-castes. Characteristic among them were those relating to commensality or inter-dining. They determined who could sit together at a meal with whom, and who could accept food and water from whom. Only castes of equivalent rank could inter-dine with each other. In general people accepted cooked food and water from the hands of their superiors, but not their inferiors.
The ritual rules governing food transactions were rigid and elaborate until a hundred years ago. Nobody can deny that there has been a steady erosion of those rules. Modern conditions of life and work have rendered many of them obsolete. The excesses of the rules of purity and pollution have now come to be treated with ridicule and mockery among educated people in metropolitan cities like Kolkata and Delhi. It is impossible to maintain such rules in a college canteen or an office lunch room. To insist on seating people according to their caste on a public occasion would cause a scandal today.
In the past, restrictions on inter-dining were closely related to restrictions on marriage according to the rules of caste. The restrictions on marriage have not disappeared, but they have eased to some extent. Among Hindus, the law imposed restrictions on inter-caste marriage. The law has changed, but the custom of marrying within the caste is still widely observed. However, what is happening is that other considerations such as those of education and income are also kept in mind in arranging a match. At any rate, it will be difficult to argue that caste consciousness in matrimonial matters has been on the rise in recent decades.
In politics, the media
There continues to be a general association between caste and occupation to the extent that the lowest castes are largely concentrated in the menial and low-paying jobs whereas the higher castes tend to be in the best-paid and most esteemed ones. But the association between caste and occupation is now more flexible than it was in the traditional economy of land and grain. Rapid economic growth and the expansion of the middle class are accompanied by new opportunities for individual mobility which further loosens the association between caste and occupation.
If, in spite of all this, caste is maintaining or even strengthening its hold over the public consciousness, there has to be a reason for it. That reason is to be found in the domain of organised politics. Caste had entered the political arena even before independence, particularly in peninsular India. But the adoption of universal adult franchise after independence altered the character and scope of the involvement of caste in the political process.
The consciousness of caste is brought to the fore at the time of elections. Elections to the Lok Sabha and the Vidhan Sabhas are now held all the year round. For logistical and other reasons, elections to even the Vidhan Sabhas may be stretched out over several weeks. There are by-elections in addition to the general elections. Election campaigns have become increasingly spectacular and increasingly costly, and they often create the atmosphere of a carnival. The mobilisation of electoral support on the basis of caste is a complex phenomenon whose outcome gives scope for endless speculation.
Even though for the country as a whole the election season never really comes to an end, the individual voter participates in the electoral process only occasionally and sporadically. The average villager devotes far more thought and time to home, work and worship than to electoral matters. It is well known that the voter turnout among urban professional Indians is low. But even when they do not participate in the elections to the extent of visiting their local polling booths, they participate in them vicariously by following on television what happens in the outside world. Television provides a large dose of entertainment along with a modicum of political education.
Private television channels have created a whole world in which their anchors and the experts who are regularly at their disposal vie with each other to bring out the significance of the “caste factor,” meaning the rivalries and alliances among castes, sub-castes and groups of castes by commentators who, for the most part, have little understanding of, or interest in, long-term trends of change in the country. These discussions create the illusion that caste is an unalterable feature of Indian society. It will be a pity if we allow what goes on in the media to reinforce the consciousness of caste and to persuade us that caste is India's destiny.
(The writer is Professor Emeritus of sociology, Delhi University, and National Research Professor; the illustration is from Seventy Two Specimens of Castes in India, General Collection, Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale University.)
[email protected]
Keywords: Y


​

 

[Yamaka]

The Hindu Article "Caste in India"....

My view

1. Unfortunately, I view India as the Affluent India9% and the rest of India91%.

Most of the coverage in the press/media, including THE HINDU ( a newspaper I started reading since 1967, a very progressive authentic news source for millions of South Indians) is about India9%.

The author talks about Inter-Dining. I agree to some extent. But still "two tumbler system" is prevalent in small towns and villages.

2. The concluding para is perhaps misleading... those who are affluent enough to subscribe to the Private TV Channels get the news of the India91%.. this could be disgusting to most of them... but that's the fact of life for the majority of Indians...

3. During Elections, many of the India9% are not going to the polls, whereas about 50% of India91% is heading towards the booths...

Granted some of the India91% is getting bribed by the politicians to cast their votes for money!

These people are happy to get some cash because they are poor and they are hard pressed for cash!

Who can blame them?

More later..

Cheers.

ps. I have defined India91% as those who can't make more than Rs.150 per day per person, primarily due to poor skills from poor education and very large family! These people live in the Slums of major cities and in rural India.

 

[KRS]

Folks,

Sorry, I was away for the long weekend in USA and saw this thread now.

Let me start with a Moderator's opinion. On Professor Nara Ji's request for opinion above and then respond to Sri tks Sir's posting.

I think Professor Nara Ji's request for direct dialog is correct. While Sri Prasad1 Ji's post imputed Professor Nara Ji as the reference messages such as these should be addressed directly to the referenced, in this case Professor Nara Ji. But at the same time, there is no rule that anyone should be compelled to post a response about someone, with whom one is loathe to carry a one on one conversation. I have said this often enough in this Forum, I am still surprised to see the type of indirect posting that Sri Prasad1 Ji made above in response to Professor Nara Ji's post.

Still on this subject, words like 'idiot', 'stupid' etc., even though technically okay in terms of attacking one's ideas, tend to be taken personally and should be avoided.

Now about criticizing India, I don't know many folks who are settled in North America that I know who 'hate' India. Out of may be 100s I have met, there was probably one person who was bitter about the way India treated him, but then, it was not about India, it was about the TN government treatment of TBs, and he was caught in the policy and was denied admission to a school that he earned by his performance. But then, he was not against the country and the people, but was virulently against the policy of the government. Having met him, was when I started thinking about the evil impact of the quota system.

For myself, my emotional, intellectual and spiritual persona invariably springs from my motherland, even though by now I have spent only 1/3rd of my entire life there. As they say. 'I can be out of India, but no one take India out of me'. I have the long culture and the past of India in me, including all influences (yes, that includes the British too), all religions (my neighbors where I grew up represented all religions and castes), all sub cultures. I am proud of who I am today - I know even though I am so different from my forefathers, yet I carry their genes and all the accumulated wisdom and prejudices. My life's journey has been to live a life where I can improve and add to the wisdom of my forefathers to my progeny, while minimizing the accumulated prejudices. This is how I am connected to India, my motherland.

The material things don't matter. While I am fine financially, going after money has never been a motive. I live where I live not to make tons of money. To me, egalitarianism and a decent opportunity to raise a family to give proper education to my children in a caste less society was important. In fact I did not become a citizen of America till 10 years after I was eligible, I had to emotionally sort it out in my mind. I think most of the Indian Americans who have settled here that I know feel the same way. This is why as we get older, our visits to India become more often. This is where I disagree respectfully with Sri Sarma-61 Ji.

Let me conclude with one last observation. Professor Nara Ji and Sri Yamaka Ji are very unique individuals. They have the make up to reject their birth religions completely, solely based on their own intellectual reasons. That is fine for them, but I often I struggle to understand how one can do that? I can never do that. It is because of not only who I am, but what all I am. This is the same reason, why I am attached to India, seeing the country with sympathetic stance, while not wishing to reject her hoary past as all bad. I don't judge the past in today's terms but be a cause for her evolution in to the future as a son of the soil, with my personal conduct, without hurting anyone.

I suspect, this is where this topic arises from, where folks like Professor Nara Ji and Sri Yamaka Ji seem to reject certain aspects of our lives in India that is viewed as rejecting the values of the motherland. I only suspect this, but if examples for this are provided, my view may change.

Regards,
KRS

 

[tks]

Dear Dr. tks Avl:I get the feeling you don't like criticism, in general. ..Innum varumm..Regards.Y

Dr Y Avl -What I like or don't is not the topic ..The key word here is not "criticism" - but the word preceding it - " imbalanced" !!LoL

 

[tks]

Folks,


Now about criticizing India, I don't know many folks who are settled in North America that I know who 'hate' India.
.
.

For myself, my emotional, intellectual and spiritual persona is invariably springs from my motherland, even though by now I have spent only 1/3rd of my entire life there. As they say. 'I can be out of India, but no one take India out of me'. I have the long culture and the past of India in me, including all influences (yes, that includes the British too), all religions (my neighbors where I grew up represented all religions and castes), all sub cultures. I am proud of who I am today - I know even though I am so different from my forefathers, yet I carry their genes and all the accumulated wisdom and prejudices. My life's journey has been to live a life where I can improve and add to the wisdom of my forefathers to my progeny, while minimizing the accumulated prejudices. This is how I am connected to India, my motherland.

The material things don't matter. While I am fine financially, going after money has never been a motive. I live where I live not to make tons of money. To me, egalitarianism and a decent opportunity to raise a family to give proper education to my children in a caste less society was important. In fact I did not become a citizen of India till 10 years after I was eligible, I had to emotionally sort it out in my mind. I think most of the Indian Americans who have settled here that I know feel the same way. This is why as we get older, our visits to India become more often. This is where I disagree respectfully with Sri Sarma-61 Ji.

Let me conclude with one last observation. Professor Nara Ji and Sri Yamaka Ji are very unique individuals. They have the make up to reject their birth religions completely, solely based on their own intellectual reasons. That is fine for them, but I often I struggle to understand how one can do that? I can never do that. It is because of not only who I am, but what all I am. This is the same reason, why I am attached to India, seeing the country with sympathetic stance, while not wishing to reject her hoary past as all bad. I don't judge the past in today's terms but be a cause for her evolution in to the future as a son of the soil, with my personal conduct, without hurting anyone.

I suspect, this is where this topic arises from, where folks like Professor Nara Ji and Sri Yamaka Ji seem to reject certain aspects of our lives in India that is viewed as rejecting the values of the motherland. I only suspect this, but if examples for this are provided, my view may change.

Regards,
KRS

Sri KRS ji

I could not have verbalized parts of my sentiments any better ..

Having said that I have not come across anyone in USA that 'hate' India. I have come across a few that are far too critical (somewhat out of balance) while they are much more balanced in their critique of their adopted country. It is the intensity of those feelings that is interesting to understand ..

Regards

 

[ozone]

prasad1, stop with this shadow boxing, if you have any issue state it openly. I condemn this cowardly tactic of repeatedly sniping without naming the obvious intended target. Stick to the issues, express your views on them, provide as much evidence and logic for your views, and let us have a rational debate, simply saying they always criticize, they are all naysayers, is nothing but emotional prattle.

Who called anybody an idiot? Just don't make things up.

Thank you ....

p.s. I would like the moderators to clarify, what is the rule with respect to responses like this, one that is clearly intended to me, but not addressed to me, clearly no issues are discussed but personally derogatory remarks -- "what audacity" -- are made. Please clarify the rules with respect to this kind of posts. I am really tired of this tactic adopted by a few posters, prasad1 and ozone in particularl, repeatedly dumping on me without naming me, always using derogatory epithets, always refusing to engage in a substantive way. Why can't these guys be asked to discuss the issues and the least I am entitled to is to be named when they say nasty things about me?

Dear Nara,
Please clarify how:

Such remarks from people whose intellectual DNA does not permit anything but sniping and snide remarks is to be expected, but not from you.

o - statement such as this falls in line with your line of rational debate and is not an emotional prattle?
o - why this isnt calling someone an 'idiot' and why it implies a make up?
o - why this isnt a shadow boxing?
The reason why I dont engage with you directly is your loose and dirty/derogatory tongue - or fingers if you want to call it. - which unfortunately gets always overlooked by the moderators

<edited. no need to for a veiled attack. have an issue, sort it out in private not in public - praveen. But i am leaving this as is, please see my response here http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/8299-imbalanced-criticism-india-those-who-left-india-nri-pio-oci-6.html#post123779 >

 

[sarang]

<edited. no need for a veiled attack. have an issue, sort it out in private not in public - praveen>


Brahmins form only a small fraction of 'hindu maha samudram' (cho's book); they want everyone to survive and and practise what they want.

Dear Nara,
Please clarify how:

o - statement such as this falls in line with your line of rational debate and is not an emotional prattle?
o - why this isnt calling someone an 'idiot' and why it implies a make up?
o - why this isnt a shadow boxing?
The reason why I dont engage with you directly is your loose and dirty/derogatory tongue - or fingers if you want to call it. - which unfortunately gets always overlooked by the moderators

 

[zebra16]

Sri Nara Sir,

The message you want to convey is quite clear, yet, you have allowed enough vagueness in these statements you can easily just deny it -- don't blame all NRIs, not even the NRIs from North America, it is only these people from USA and Canada who write in this forum, they are the ones levelling these criticisms never acknowledging any of the real achievements.

If it is not asking for too much, would you kindly indicate some posts where they have acknowledged any of the real achievements of India? Thanks.

Or is India such a country that it is irredeemably shorn of any achievements?

Let us see who these posters from USA & Canada can be. In the past this list included myself, KRS, Yamaka, and Kunjuppu. I don't think any of you guys will say anything about KRS. That leaves the three of us, even though I rarely ever get into China/India topics.

Do I detect a subtle permanent group-ism based on some affiliation that would prohibit a member from agreeing with the views of the other group, even if his thoughts or opinions agree with that other group?

As regards views of Sri KRS, I am positive that myself and Sri Sangom were on the opposite side of the views of Sri KRS when the topic of Dr. MMS being the only two Indian PMs to be appreciated by american TV media came up.

From what I am able to gather, one of the issues is comparing India with China. Some may feel such comparisons are unreasonable, fair enough. But, as far as I understand, such comparisons by K and Y, (I myself have not participated in India/China discussions much) are along the lines of an yearning to see India succeed and be an economic powerhouse like China. This is seen as "shrill noise" of criticism of India, even by you Narayan?

Let me clarify what I felt as a "shrill noise"

As Sri Y is participating in this forum, there would be ample opportunities for me to directly address the issues to him. As regards Sri K, as he is not participating, it would be unfair for me to bring him in the context. But, as I have to respond to your query, I have to draw your attention to the post of Sri K here (msg #73): http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7960-prime-minister-peril-8.html

Sri K as a solution fondly hoped that 20% of indian population is wiped off in the civil war, that India needed some of the guillotine therapy of Russia, France, China and England that chopped off the heads of the ruling class. In response to my post Sri K did say that his post was full of "tongue in cheek" humour, sarcasm, hopelessness and love etc. all rolled into one and I was dumb enough to miss the mark.

Sure I am not Sri A.G. Gardiner, Sri K's favourite essayist, nor am I Ernest Miller Hemingway to be awarded Nobel for English literature, but I amused myself thinking that I had a reasonable comprehending ability of English.

While Sri K was posting about dalit atrocity video clips and news items published in a leading Canadian national daily called Global Mail or something, there was also a news item approximately at the same time of an Indian being murdered in Canada which was suspected to be a hate crime. For some reason or other, Sri K chose not to give any Canadian perspective to the news item and I was left wondering about the objectivity of Sri K's posts concerning India.

There is another strain I see in these posts, and that is, any criticism of Hindutva is a criticism of India itself. To them, right or wrong, no criticism of India can be tolerated. But, Hindutva people don't get to define what is what is not criticism of India. India is lot bigger than Hindutva forces. In many ways, these Hindutva touting hyper-jingoists are the worst enemies of the country they purport to revere.

My post steers clear of any political jingoism.

Similarly, though I have tons and tons of criticism about India, I am second to none when it comes to love for India.

Finally, "Who Loves India More" contests are silly, and may I add, stupid.

Cheers!

I am concerned only with imbalanced criticism of India and whether someone loves India more or less or who is on top in the scales of their love of India does not enter into the picture.

While on the subject, please have a look at msg # 39 of Sri Y, deftly introducing two-tumbler system and caste into the discussions (and the news article of "The Hindu" makes no mention of the two tumblers.

How is caste issue related to the discussion on hand? Is it a random action by a rationalist, or is it agenda based?

Regards,

 

[sarma-61]

Namaste everyone,

I am taking a leaf out of Shri Saidevo's posts here. I felt this is the best and most direct way of addressing all and everyone in this Forum. I request Shri Saidevo sir, to allow me this liberty.

Talking about India and its poverty, its future, etc., I remember having read somewhere, years ago, that the time for granting Independence to India was decided as per the astrological advice given by some very learned Pundit/s from Kashi, to Lord Mountbatten, Nehru, Gandhi, etc., and that, unfortunately the moment chosen was not very auspicious.

During the 1970's or 1980's I had read an article by the Late Shri B.V. Raman, analysing the astrological future of China, in which he says clearly enough that China will emerge as the world's only super power in the 21st. century, and that the Indian nation will get broken up into many small fragments.

The message I got was that the future of India will be a very big question mark and possibly Indians are at peace blaming their lot on poorva janma karma and god's will.

These are from my memory; I will request learned members knowing astrology to further clarify and even correct me, if I am wrong.

 

[zebra16]

What Made Me Happy and Unhappy recently?



Although I refuse to get infected with the pathology of Jingoistic Nationalist, I was very happy for Dr. Sen.

Then I asked, as usual, for the 1200 million people, where are the 100 Dr. Sens, 100 Oscar Rahmans, 100 Dr. Venki Venketaramans, 100 Sachin Tandulkars etc ?

Before I point out fingers at 1200 million people with or without jingoism of any variety, I will take a hard look at myself and introspect:

(i) Am I a nobel awardee?

(ii) Wait a minute, what is it with just one nobel award? Hasn't Marie Curie won two Nobel awards?

(iii) Wait yet another minute - With all the tons of progress made in education field now-a-days what with digital learning, extensive library system, advanced and state of the art curriculum etc., can I not beat Marie Curie?

If I did not reach anywhere there, what was that I was lacking? May be those 1200 million people may also be lacking some such ingredient.

When I do not have a realistic scope of "grabbing" a nobel, what next best thing can I do? How can I propel them in that direction?

Am I an expert in some field? In my chosen area of profession? May be I am an expert in theoretical physics, or nano technology, or cloud computing or genetic engineering, may be business finance or algo trading?

How about me putting about 4 or 5 papers of 700-1000 words of high quality material in my blog spot or "Share your knowledge" thread in TB forum, where I frequent?

I know theism is just a waste of time, but then so is atheism - all talk about people trapped below $ 2 dollars a day - is nothing of substantial value. Why do not I genuinely contribute and share the useful knowledge?

Here is a true karmayogi in action: Khan Academy

 

[ozone]

<edited. no need for a veiled attack. have an issue, sort it out in private not in public - praveen>

 

[prasad1]

Sri KRS ji

I could not have verbalized parts of my sentiments any better ..

Having said that I have not come across anyone in USA that 'hate' India. I have come across a few that are far too critical (somewhat out of balance) while they are much more balanced in their critique of their adopted country. It is the intensity of those feelings that is interesting to understand ..

Regards

Mr. TKS, you are too charitable.
Mr. Yamaka wrote

2. Recently I had a talk with a bitter critic of India, who asked "Y, tell me what we can be proud of India, knowing what all you know?"

A bitter critic of your motherland, it can only be a ..........., and you are friends with that person. really !!!!
If you always find fault with Hinduism, India, and Indians in general there is definitely some personality disorder. We all bitch about some aspect of Indian politics, practice etc, but the overall the majority of us love India. I am very proud of the achievements, the rich history, and the bright outlook for India.

 

[sarma-61]

Respected Shri ozone,

You know I am a rather conservative type of brahmanan and do believe in the religion bequethed to my generation by my parents and elders; I value it though I might have been an utter failure in using that religion and its instructions for any type of improvement of my own life itself.

Still, I humbly feel that we need not (and rather should not) give in to the temptation of "intolerance" of atheistic or irreligious views. I believe it is the same God who causes all these things to manifest and unless and until such people compel us to forsake our religion and do only these posts in this web forum, we need not mind those statements at all. Their views will add relish to my religious beliefs just like a taste of chutney in between sips of very delicious 'paayaasam'.

So, I request you to desist from lowering yourself and let the caravan of religious-minded folks go on.