Imbalanced Criticism of India by those who left India , NRI, PIO, OCI ....

[renuka]

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'imagine there's no countries, isn't hard to do. nothing to kill or die for.....(its for yamaka to sing the next line , but im carefully putting a full stop here )

Good,then I dont need to wait a few months before I enter India again with the double entry visa visits are so restricted.

 

[sarang]

US will be the first global piece of land that will build US wall to prevent entry of outsiders. Since we are talking of a global land, we must allow population to relocate till the density per square kilometer reaches a level of 148.3275069 - true global equality.

Good,then I dont need to wait a few months before I enter India again with the double entry visa visits are so restricted.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Good,then I dont need to wait a few months before I enter India again with the double entry visa visits are so restricted.

Dear Doctor,

Oh, yes I would also love to live in such a borderless Utopian World. But it is an ideal which has no relationship to reality. When we come down to terra firma, we realize this. We are divided into Nations, bound by various Laws and regulations.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[ozone]

but K is gone, driven away by prasad1 and ozone. Now, as you admit, it is unfair to cite him.

Moderator, Ladies, Gentlemen and fellow members,

Please help me to know how I should respond to this?
This gentleman in Post #64 at 01:28 AM IST says

As long as you guys refrain from making any personal comments about me directly or indirectly we will be fine.

but doesnt vouch he would do the same in return, and now in post #65 at 02:17 AM says this.

 

[renuka]

Their skin crawls when having to deal with beggars, auto drivers, coolies or the occasional government babu. They feel obliged to defend the choice they have made and one way to do that is to point out the problems with the road they did not take.

Dear Biswa,

When in India many of us also face situations with beggars.

I just allot some amount of money to give beggars on and off and also buy them some food and when I travel I sometimes brings some unused sarees which I bought but didnt get the time to wear and give to to female beggars who dont have proper clothes to wear.

After all how often do I go to India? May be once a year..so lets beggars enjoy for a few days when I am there.

Auto guys too I dont bargain with them too much..cos some are real nice and I even have their mobile numbers and call and book the auto when I reach there.
Me and my hubby know one auto guy so well that we have even been to his house and met his wife and kids.

So even if they are charging me a bit more than usual its no big deal cos at least let them have some extra money once in a while and these types are very trustworthy too.

 

[ozone]

Dear Biswa,

When in India many of us also face situations with beggars.

I just allot some amount of money to give beggars on and off and also buy them some food and when I travel I sometimes brings some unused sarees which I bought but didnt get the time to wear and give to to female beggars who dont have proper clothes to wear.

After all how often do I go to India? May be once a year..so lets beggars enjoy for a few days when I am there.

Auto guys too I dont bargain with them too much..cos some are real nice and I even have their mobile numbers and call and book the auto when I reach there.
Me and my hubby know one auto guy so well that we have even been to his house and met his wife and kids.

So even if they are charging me a bit more than usual its no big deal cos at least let them have some extra money once in a while and these types are very trustworthy too.

Dear Renu,
Isnt it the same auto drivers we need to deal with when you are gone and until you are back?

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,
Isnt it the same auto drivers we need to deal with when you are gone and until you are back?

What I mean is..each one of us should devise a way to deal with anyone.

I studied in India too and never had problems dealing with anyone at all.The only thing I have noted is that sales girls do not smile to customers as much as they should...but thats no big deal cos may be its the culture out there.

 

[renuka]

But the most unique beggars I have met are from Puttaparthi..they can even speak Italian...they pick up words real fast from the foreign devotees there..

When you are looking thru your purse and cant find change to give them they even tell you in English "Maam no problems..I have change..how much you want to give me"

 

[Yamaka]

Dr Y Avl -Though I do not want to be a judge of any member's views, let me answer you since you asked a question. I am sure many members here, in my view, will tend to agree with your reaction to the events that you have chosen to highlight. In other words it is a balanced expression of India in my view based on what you have posted above. I have not been regularly visiting the forum and keeping up with all the posts. So I have not read most of your posts for me to provide a balanced view LoLDoes one feel a sense of belonging and identity with India - a place of their birth? I cannot answer this for others, but only for myself.How do you answer the above question? I am not talking about feeling to connect with tribal India here

Dear Dr. tks Avl:

I have said that there is a feeling in me to connect with the rural India from where I was born and raised. And said it could be due to the "tribal instinct", which we learned over million years.

Further, you ask me to answer the question of "sense of belonging and identity with India - the place of my birth?"

Since I became a Naturalized US Citizen in 1989 (long time ago), I have less of a sense of belonging and identity with India now than I had till 1989. Because that's exactly what you do when you give up the citizenship of your place of birth.

However, as I said before, I read a lot about India and her growth since I left the country in 1979. In the last 33 years, India has more than doubled in total population growing at a rate of about 2%. This population growth is asymmetric in that India91% is exploding in number while the skill level is stagnant or declining, and India9% is doing well.

This asymmetry is a pain in my heart. I venture to find a Solution, AFTER exploring the root cause!

As a Globalist, I always compare and contrast India with other developing countries, in particular China.

Perhaps, this attitude is what irking the Indian Nationalists who routinely criticize me here.

Innum varum...

Regards.

Y

 

[KRS]

Dear bro Nara Ji,

My response in 'blue' below:

Dear Shri KRS, let me start with a comment on the above, I never called anyone an idiot and I rarely if ever characterize an idea "stupid". Even in this instance I only said -- "Who Loves India More" contests are silly, and may I add, stupid.", which is not really calling any particular person's idea stupid, let alone any individual one. In other words, I don't believe in calling somebody eles's idea stupid just because I don't agree with it. My preference is deference, not insults direct or disguised.
The statement was not directed solely at you. I chose my context carefully. I said 'even if it is technically correct....', such words can best be avoided. This applies to ALL members.

I appreciate your reasoned presentation. I can't talk for Y, and therefore talking just for myself, I would like to emphasize what you have said yourself, I don't reject everything from the past, and even the aspects I reject I don't hold all our forefathers guilty, most of them very likely didn't know any better, much like many today. Further, I don't see atheism by itself a rejection of the hoary past of India. If we are able to go back far enough it is inevitable somewhere in our ancestral tree there is an atheist, a Buddhist, or whatever else, even if strictly traverse along the paternal side.
My technical agnosticism/practical atheism is not a rejection of our hoary past, but a validation of what at least some of my ancient forefathers stood for. So, if anything, my rationalism is a celebration of our hoary past.
Thank you for your thoughtful answer. I did not say you have rejected your whole past. But you have, at least one part of your immediate past of your parents and I assume your grand parents. I am not saying that it is wrong, it is just very unique. For myself, I can not reject anything from my past, on the basis of any ideology, completely. This is why, I can not become a revolutionist on one aspect of our condition as a Tamil Brahmin as you have. I can do changes in my life though - like shunning casteism, and perhaps in the realm of my own spirituality that are 180 degrees from some members of my family (my late father though, from what I hear, had the same ideas like mine unknown to me when I was young).

While we both love where we came from, perhaps your connection to our motherland seems to be more broad, inclusive of all past cultures and then looking at our Brahminical past based on that, while mine is to identify first with my own culture first and then fan out to other cultures from there.
In this respect. may I say that you are far more intellectual with a small part of emotion, while my makeup is more emotion than intellectual? I am saying this without ascribing any different values to those two aspects of a human being when it comes to our roots.
Cheers!

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Yamaka,

You have said, in response to my post:

I don't like words like "Motherland" or "Fatherland" which are sensational words for Jingoistic Nationalists... I am a Globalist.

Also, I have said that I am standing in Solidarity with the Poor and Voiceless in the World, including India, Haiti, Africa, Central and South America.

In my opinion saying 'motherland' or 'fatherland' are not just jingoism. They give meaning to who I am. I am an American, born and raised in India till I was 23. They become jingoistic only if one rejects humanism and solely and blindly trumpets any supremacy using these words.

So, using the above concept, saying these words does not automatically mean one does not empathize with others in the world, whatever country they come from.

'Globalist' is a term, infused with a heavy, heavy burden. In my opinion, that can only be a person, who empathizes with all the cultures of each one around the world, without judging. I dare say there are only a few of that kind around. Once one starts judging based on whatever ideology, one is just a 'citizen of limited perspective', who sees the world through his/her own colored glasses.

Just my two cents......

Regards,
KRS

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Shri KRS, let me start with a comment on the above, I never called anyone an idiot and I rarely if ever characterize an idea "stupid".

Needs some enlightenment:

Post ..# 109 /NARA

The society has drilled these stupid and superstitious ideas into the heads of women, it is the women themselves who will defend them.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...h-its-been-60-years-post-independence-11.html

 

[prasad1]

I don't like words like "Motherland" or "Fatherland" which are sensational words for Jingoistic Nationalists... I am a Globalist.

This totally ignores the the environment that nurtured the persons growth. It actually shuns and disrespect the people who made sacrifice for you, your parents, your family, your city, your sate, your country, and various other institutions.

That is the definition of Ingratitude.

 

[Nara]

In this respect. may I say that you are far more intellectual with a small part of emotion, while my makeup is more emotion than intellectual? I am saying this without ascribing any different values to those two aspects of a human being when it comes to our roots.

Dear brother KRS, I won't put it in terms of intellectualism or emotion because I don't think you are any less intellectual or I am any less emotional in these matters, again without ascribing any value to either of them. In fact I find the philosophical doctrines that form part of Brahminism very highly intellectual devoid of any emotions to the extent it came to be known as varattu vedantam.

On one level what you are suggesting is true, it was not hard for me to transform myself when it made sense to me, first when I was a believer and SV made perfect sense, and then when I renounced my faith and SV theology when I was no longer able to justify my "beliefs", to myself, the foundation upon which my SV rested. It was not an overnight transition, I wrestled with it for almost a year. It was a slow and deliberate process.

But I am still emotionally attached to Azhvar pasurams for the grand vision of true equality they sang about, one that was so sadly quashed by -- it is coming, brace yourself -- Brahmnical forces, let truth be told.

Cheers!

 

[zebra16]

Sri Nara Sir,

Dear Narayan, you made a post highly suggestive of just the NRIs from Canada and USA who write in this forum. That is a pretty small group and I named them. If there was groupism, it was you who suggested it. Having detected this nonexistent "subtle groupism" you then launched into further speculations, totally uncalled for. What is the point of all this?

This is not a non-existing "subtle groupism" but a real and existing one, that too as per your own posts. I can quote many number of posts of yours bracketing yourselves with 3 or 4 members and addressing all others as "you guys"

So, the only citation you have to support your "sheer noise" is some past posts of K. That is it? This is instructive in many levels.

1. Why should you take what one poster said and posit it upon NRI's from Canada and USA who write in online forums?
2. If you disagreed with K, then you confront him at that time, it is not right to nurse this perceived slight and take it out on a generalized group.
3. K is no longer in the forum to defend himself. Citing him is not fair.

I understand that you are reluctant to address the basic issue . I had raised a basic question, i.e. is India a country that is of irredeemably shorn of any achievements and whether you have come across any posts by "them" (meaning those short-listed by you) acknowledging any real achievements of India? Your post skipped both the issues.

Precisely, yet you didn't let this sentiment stop you, why? You had your chance to confront K, I don't know whether you did or not, but K is gone, driven away by prasad1 and ozone. Now, as you admit, it is unfair to cite him.

Sri K had left the forum even when you responded to my post in this thread. Why did you drag his name at all?

This is the crux of the problem. If there was imbalanced criticism you confront the criticizer in real time. But, what is being done is like indiscriminate carpet bombing after the person with whom you have a difference is long gone. I don't know what the intent of OP was, but this thread is serving as a vehicle to give expression to all the pent up anger over the views a lot of people disagree with. How can this be anything other than spite?

If you have a problem with that why don't you take it up with him. Letting it go now, but keeping a sort of grudge to be taken out at a later day in a generalized form with no care for collateral damage to others is not right.

There is nothing like a "real time". Time itself is defined as "interval between two events". So all discussions are jaded. Everyone's post is held to be his opinion, till he recants his opinion.

What is imbalanced and what is not is a subjective thing. One can only have opinions on it. So, a thread like this cannot serve any purpose other than fanning the flames of passion, which it has achieved admirably. So sad Narayan, one whom I erespect, you have fallen prey.Cheers!

Almost all posts in this forum are opinion, more especially subjective speculations, This thread is no different.

Regards

 

[biswa]

Almost all posts in this forum are opinion, more especially subjective speculations, This thread is no different.

At the risk of using a Christian epithet, all I can say is: ​Amen!

 

[biswa]

But the most unique beggars I have met are from Puttaparthi..they can even speak Italian...they pick up words real fast from the foreign devotees there..

When you are looking thru your purse and cant find change to give them they even tell you in English "Maam no problems..I have change..how much you want to give me"

I hope the beggars were not wearing Gucci as well.

Definitely I support giving alms, but perhaps one should think whether giving directly to these so-called beggars helps. I know for a fact that many beggars in the US (or pan-handlers as they are called here) use their revenue to buy drinks and drugs.

So instead I donate to organizations such as United Way, Red Cross, homeless shelters and food banks. But of course to each his/her own.

 

[Yamaka]

To All the Indian Nationalists living in the US/Canada/Australia/UK as Naturalized Citizens or Green Card Holders long term:

Have you ever tried to leave everything in the New Land and attempted to go back and settle in India for good? Why? or Why not?

Dear Nara has written very candidly his attempt...and he said it failed.

For me, in 1982 (3 years after entering US on J-1 Visa) I talked with my wife about going back and settling in India (in Madurai, Trichy or Chennai)...

She looked at me in some wonderment and asked,"Are you crazy? My family - all Religious Supremacists - will kill you for what we did! You always forget that we have an IRM and you are an Atheist! And, you want to raise our kids in a Secular Household! Forget it, Y. Just apply for Green Card.. and we are becoming US Citizens ASAP... India is not for people like us!"

I didn't speak a word, I immediately applied for Green Card.. and in 1989 we became Naturalized US Citizens... I never tried once to go back! I enjoy every minute of everyday here in Houston.. because I am a Globalist! Lol

I am little puzzled from some of the posts of the Nationalists here! If they have so much fondness of their "Motherland", what are they doing away from her, anyway?

I am missing something, here.

Please enlighten me!

 

[C RAVI]

To All the Indian Nationalists living in the US/Canada/Australia/UK as Naturalized Citizens or Green Card Holders long term:

Have you ever tried to leave everything in the New Land and attempted to go back and settle in India for good? Why? or Why not?

Dear Nara has written very candidly his attempt...and he said it failed.

For me, in 1982 (3 years after entering US on J-1 Visa) I talked with my wife about going back and settling in India (in Madurai, Trichy or Chennai)...

She looked at me in some wonderment and asked,"Are you crazy? My family - all Religious Supremacists - will kill you for what we did! You always forget that we have an IRM and you are an Atheist! And, you want to raise our kids in a Secular Household! Forget it, Y. Just apply for Green Card.. and we are becoming US Citizens ASAP... India is not for people like us!"

I didn't speak a word, I immediately applied for Green Card.. and in 1989 we became Naturalized US Citizens... I never tried once to go back! I enjoy every minute of everyday here in Houston.. because I am a Globalist! Lol

I am little puzzled from some of the posts of the Nationalists here! If they have so much fondness of their "Motherland", what are they doing away from her, anyway?

I am missing something, here.

Please enlighten me!

Shri Yamaka,

Though I don't belong to the list of people you are addressing to, kindly allow me to experess my views.


One may go away from one's parents to another states in India or out of India itself, for better prospects, that can help the person and his/her parents.

This need not necessarily lead one to criticize, degrade, defame, hate, contempt their own parents just because the parental environment was not conducive to the person to better his/her prospects.

Similarly the emotional attachement to one's own home country, where the person has taken birth, grew up and experienced many things in his/her life, breathing the air, playing on the grounds, drenching in rains, swimming in the ponds/lakes, listening to the stories of History that has instilled the sense of patriotism, glory of the nation, unity & solidarity of the nation, the vivid cultures that still leads to unity in diversity etc..etc makes a major emotional impact on a person. Just leaving this place/country which one has cherished, for the sake of betterment, need not necessarily makes one look down upon one's motherland.

Having gone away from one's own country, one may look down upon one's own parents or own country and call the tem "Motherland" as nothing but stupid jingoism and sentimental idiotism. One may consider the term "Motherland" as of great value and revere it with love, passion and respect.

The farmer types of the people are those for whom their "motherland" doesn't makes any sense because his/her motherland was useless.

The later types of the people are those for whom their "motherland" has contributed a lot right from their birth and have instilled many of the great senses/values that they still relish.

Thus both types of the people still dwell in America/Canada/UK/Australia as naturalized citizens or green card holders.

 

[sarang]

There is another way to find out.
1. How many hindu temples are there?
2. What is number of visits made per year to the temple per family?
3. How many india/ hindu related blogs, forums, groups and web sites, are there which are of US origin?
4. How many US hindus are actively associated with institutions, muts and other hindu religious institutions in india?
American hindus, whether citizens, green card holders or on work permit contribute generously in time, participation and money in propagating hindu values, traditions and culture, both in US and in India.
Atheists and virulent anti hindu votaries are minuscule fringe elements, who can only hyper ventilate; they don't achieve anything.

 

[Nara]

...This is not a non-existing "subtle groupism" but a real and existing one,...

Dear Narayan, all I can say to you is I am not part of any group, I have as much disagreement in views with you as I have with K, or Y, or anyone else. I leave it to you to either accept this or not.

I understand that you are reluctant to address the basic issue .

I am not interested in this issue of "imbalance" as I know this is just a matter of POV, what is seen as imbalanced by one may be seen perfectly balanced by another. What I was interested in pointing out was, if there is an objection or concern, then it must be sorted out in a direct and open way as soon as possible. That is all.

As for your point, I have no reluctance, I did write about it earlier, that the kind of comments I saw from K or Y were of the nature of yearning to see India emerge as a prosperous nation, and in that respect I don't see any need for self-congratulatory comments, this is my opinion, you may disagree.

I had raised a basic question, i.e. is India a country that is of irredeemably shorn of any achievements and whether you have come across any posts by "them" (meaning those short-listed by you) acknowledging any real achievements of India? Your post skipped both the issues.

Please see above. As far as I have seen nobody ever wrote anything close to "irredeemably shorn of any achievements" this is your imagination. The "them" you are referring to as short-listed by me is the only list possible by the description you provided, and, as I said earlier, I don't see anything imbalanced in their posts. If you thought their presentations were imbalanced, then you should have challenged them at that time, bringing it up now is not right, and that is what I think.

Sri K had left the forum even when you responded to my post in this thread. Why did you drag his name at all?

Come on Narayan, please do not play coy with me. Who did you mean when you said (paraphrase, not an exact quote) not all NRIs, only those from Canada/USA who waste their time posting in online forums?

My whole point was only that people must be open when they criticize others, and do so when the discussion is ongoing. Keeping score to be taken out later on in a dharma adi fashion is not right. That is all, if you think their posts are imbalanced that is fine by me, I just happen to think their posts are not imbalanced.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

To All the Indian Nationalists living in the US/Canada/Australia/UK as Naturalized Citizens or Green Card Holders long term:

When you have burned your bridges, there is no going back. You have to pay the price for your deeds. But in the process a whole generation is made to suffer.
So you can be bitter, and post all the venom in websites.

The argument that if you love your motherland, what are you doing here in USA is just like if you love your mother why are you not with her? This is the same argument Republican in USA make to Mr. Warren Buffet suggested that rich must contribute more towards the country, they tell him that he can make a personal donation.
We are contributing by being an ambassador of India in USA. We are contributing financially by our remittance, and periodic visit to India, and charities. Here in USA we have raised the profile of Indians (you are an indirect beneficiary of that). But knowing you from your post you would not accept that either.

 

[zebra16]

Sri Nara Sir,

Thank you for your post # 96. Let us move on to new topics of agreement and disagreement.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Yamaka,

You have said,

For me, in 1982 (3 years after entering US on J-1 Visa) I talked with my wife about going back and settling in India (in Madurai, Trichy or Chennai)...

This was exactly the same sentiments we, those who have settled down here had during the initial years. Even though you did not not have much to look forward to if you returned, you still contemplated about returning.

Unlike you a lot of us have good memories about India. But different circumstances (in my case I got married to an American and had children), dictated living here. Once I had decided that and became a citizen, of course my allegiance is with my fatherland. But how can one forget about my motherland, as Sri C.Ravi Ji poetically put it above?

About the 'Nationalists'.- I come across many recent arrivals from India here and they are clearly here to make money. They often complain about the US, saying that India is superior. This attitude usually get a response from me after a while, on the lines of, if you love India so much, what are you doing here? But the number of folks who do that are a tiny minority.

By the way, it was Sri Biswa Ji who tried to settle back, not Professor Nara Ji.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

....By the way, it was Sri Biswa Ji who tried to settle back, not Professor Nara Ji.

Dear brother KRS, Y is talking about this post, yes I did spend a sabbatical in India quite recently with the express idea of trying it out, but it turned out I couldn't survive there with my sanity in tact. Every time I stepped out of the house was an experience to forget. Sometimes even your own neighbors behave with such unconcern for the next person it was an eye opening experience.

Usually, when I visited India on vacation, I used to leave before the frustrations crossed the upper limit, so I always entertained the idea of retiring in India, but after this extended stay of nearly 6 months I realized I can't make it Chennai. I am not trying to knock Chennai, just that Chennai and I didn't get along, that is all.

BTW, I even went back right after graduation and lived in India for almost one year way back in 1984, but had to come back for various reasons.

Cheers!