Indian Secularism engenders fissiparous tendencies

[kunjuppu]

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Saab, Malgova,

first saab, thank you so much for your reply. i see your view and benefits of reviving dharma in india. it makes sense from your perspective, particularly considering the situation in india. i regret to say that i am not that deep. i had my reasons for leaving india, and where i have settled i am peaceful and contented.

i have not lusted after material things to the extreme. though i should say that i marvel at the gadgets even though i do not possess more than the PC and the digital camera. hopefully nowadays that is acceptable in india too for middle class

i wish you well and fondly will that you will find enough of like minded people to develop an informal study group or think tank and be a voice of input through the internet and paper/electronic media. i have no reservations or cautions to offer you, as i am quite sure, that as you go forth in your journey, it will all sort itself out.

malgova, i like to keep my hinduism simple. i light the lamp daily. i have a four line Hanuman stanza that i chant several times a day. also invoke Shiva's name. these give me comfort. to me Hanuman is not a divinity by himself, but a manifestation of God to whom all of us bow. i do not think too deeply about Rama or other Divinities as a rule as distinct identitites.

i remember those long evenings in a pattikaadu malabar town when the narrations of my aunt kept me enthralled. she had had a rough life being widowed in her teens, but nothing could keep her spirits down. many of my values were inculcated from her. amazing after 50 years, i still feel as if they happened yesterday. that is the power of memory.

of late i have come to hear of ramanuja and i like his concept of a casteless hindu society. i think we will eventually move in that direction, and personally feel, the sooner the better, for the survival of our culture and way of life on an inclusive basis. he who prays together always feels kinship.

as i live outside of india, caste is meaningless to me. my kids will not accept stratification of individuals within a religious faith, as they believe in universal equality. i was fortunate enough to grow among christians and other hindu castes. most occassions i was the only brahmin. i have had only good experiences when growing up and i feel that i am a better person for that type of exposure.

throughout my teens, my mentor and best friend was a hindu nadar. i wish the same warm relationships for all tamil tribes including us brahmins. we need to live harmoniously, as we all have to so much to offer.

i think for india to be strong, we need the leadership to address first our security, and then turn our focus to economic growth without corruption, so that the poorest of the poor have Hope.

i watch with horror the spread of maoists. of late manmohan singh and karunanidhi have started to take notice. it is high time that the rest of the populace did. they are a bigger threat to us than anything that we have seen so far.

thank you.

 

[Saab]

On May 10, Newindpress.com broke the story about Germany obtaining a list of account-holders at a bank in Leichtenstein, a tax haven, and offering it to any country “that asked”. Although most countries had requested for the data, India had not responded, the report said.

My question is: "Why is India not requesting the info?"

The fact is that Finland, Norway and Sweden had promptly asked for details after Germany made the offer. The US, Australia, France, the UK, Ireland, Italy, Canada, New Zealand and Spain had subsequently put in their requests.

Who are the people, I wonder, whom the UPA govt. is trying to protect?

 

[malgova.mango]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dear Sri Kunjuppu![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I appreciate your attitude for simple life without complicating with too many rules. But contentment is not that easy for many. They are seduced and lured by the world and are ready to hurt anybody , anything to get their fix. For a society your simple mode of reasoning will not work. There are multitude of forces at play.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Some lines from Bhaja Govindam....[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"Balasthavath Kreeda Saktha: - We lose our childhood in play[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Tharunasthavath Tharuni Saktha: - We lose our youth in lust[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Vridhasthavath chinta saktha - We lose our oldage in various worries[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Pare Bramhani kopi na Saktha: - Alas no one loses themselves in Bramhaanandam”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The first three line are the norms of the society. So your contentment is indeed a special one.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nowadays people need some medication even for good sleep. Elders used to say, if one has good appetitie and sound sleep, that itself is a big tapas. Even whatever the relative contentment you said you have is due to punyas you and your family done for life-times with the support from our native culture. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I 've already written my views about Siddha Purushas – Nobody has the authority or intelligence to question the holy scriptures – I reiterate. As far my understanding , apart from the Drishtanda – they (followers of Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhwa) also follow the scriptures with some very minor deviation. But if you were to say Sri Ramanuja advocated casteless society then you need to check again with Acharyas of Iyengars. I'm definete this is not the case. As there are jati bhedhams in Iyengars following the Sri Ramanujaacharya also. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I see a positive side in Jati system , what I requested you is to read the positive points as enumerated by “Mahaperieva” . You can access the material in www.kamakoti.org.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I read your sattvic qualities in other post– I think you may have to read Bhagavat geeta to get an understanding of what is “Sattvic, Rajasic and Tamasic “ qualities. One kind soul called Sri Ramachander our forum member painstakingly translated the materials in English and made it available for free in this website www.celestial.org. Please read. Another source for Bhagavat Geeta is the crisp commentry by His Holiness Swami Dayananda Saraswati of Arsha Vidya Gurukulam. Please read some insights of Swamiji from the website www.avgsatsang.org.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]His disciple His Holiness Swami Parmathananda is based on Chennai, He has given an extensive commentry on Sandhyavandanam, the website to access is www.yogamalika.org (In His purvashramam he hailed from Kerala) He is doing this service for the past 30+ years silently. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I also expect you to read the Englishman commentry on the parliment about our culture as posted by Sri Saab. Please post your views on that. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The moaist and other cults are the outcome of neglect of “dharma”. When the sacrifice meaning yagyas stops, the distribution of wealth based on duty also stops. Exploitation of poor, tribals, forest, natural eco-system, increase of accidental deaths (akala maranam) , In the name of labour, making people to work like machines, locking up the wealth in cities thereby creating migration of villagers. Poor agricultural management, Insensitive playing on the human complexes to gain some petty political ranks. Execessive dependence on fossil fuel therby draining the ex-chequer and creating poverty all these and other “papas “ have to produce result they will come in one or other form.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Regards[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]PS : In this post you have repeated on your personal routine – I couldn't understand your reasoning for that. Did I miss anything?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As far lighting the lamp , it is the duty of the ladies in the house. Not a big deal just thought of highlighting. [/FONT]

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu!

I've addressed many points about Jathi system , in my various posts. Hope you are aware of all those. Birth is not an accident, it is also a Karma phala given by GOD. It is like awakening from sleep. Say you are a rich fellow with certain disposition, you will remain so when you wake up from your slumber. So the factor of birth is also taken into account when allocating duties. Is that not a sensible thing to do?

Anyway , it is not a product of human intelligence, Jati's is an order that exist from time immemorial.

Again I request you to read the positive points of Jati system to gain a balanced perspective.

Regards

 

[Saab]

Dear MMji,

மரம் பழுத்தால் வவ்வாலை வா என்று கூறி
இறந்தழைப்பார் யாவரும் அங்கில்லை
சுரந்தமுதம் கற்றாதரல் போல் கரவாதளிப்பரேல்
உற்றார் உலகத்தவர்!

You see crows and dogs come in droves to eat the carcasses. Some of them fight among themselves too.

The same Guna is in the humans too. Please don't get carried away by the preachers of 'civilization'. Ask them why the citadels of civilizations have been colonizing the world. Ask them why the U.S. and the U.K. went into Iraq.

Regards,

Let me explain the above post.

All living beings migrate in search of greener pastures.

மரம் பழுத்தால் வவ்வாலை வா என்று கூறி
இறந்தழைப்பார் யாவரும் அங்கில்லை

If a tree is laden with fruits, no one sends outs invitation to the bats to come and eat the fruits. Likewise if there are jobs such as in Bombay people elsewhere such as from Bihar or Tamilnadu or even Bangladesh come there.

It is true that the price of labour falls if there is more supply of labour. The 'locals' therefore band together and create monopoly of jobs for themselves. This is the basis of the Trade Unions. From such vantage points they create artificial scarcity of supply and thus raise their prices. This in turn increases the cost of production. This in turn will cause rise in the price of goods produced. Suppose bicycles are produced. Increase in the cost of labour would push up the break even price from say Rs.1000 to Rs.1100. If the market study shows that at a price of Rs.1000 each 3000 bicycles could be sold and at Rs.1100 each the number of byers would come down to 2500. This means for 500 people this price rise would be a deterrent and they will move out of bicycle market. So the Trade Union has to contend with the question by one section of senior employees who wants wages to rise while the junior employees say they would rather have jobs. The union bosses get money from the subscription of members so they usually decide to have more members than a fewer fat paid members. This is where they 'settle' with the companies on wages.

This is a glimpse into the working of the 'work place'.

The economics dictate the action, whether it is migration or wages.

This is capitalist economic system!

Economy is a very big subject and everything is so finely interconnected that one has to have a basic understanding of the fundamentals of economics in order to understand the play of each aspect.

There are aspects of production that are seasonal in nature. For example agriculture. This means if you are an agriculturalist then you need lots of labour at the time of planting and and at the time of harvesting, So you are willing to pay a hefty price at these two times but don't need labour at other times. So countries like Canada and America get agri labourers from latin america for about four months in a year and send them back. Yet many of them dodge the immigration officials and stay behind and in time these illegal aliens add up to millions and they threaten the natives of their regular jobs and increased taxation due to schooling, shelter and so on of these illegals. They become political hot topics.

The demarcation is usually drawn into the rights of citizens whether they are Biharis or Tamils and the non-rights of migrants from say Bangladesh.

In the light of my explanation above you probably understand when I wrote

You see crows and dogs come in droves to eat the carcasses. Some of them fight among themselves too.

In the capitalist mode of production the pursuit of capital is by hook or by crook i.e. either by profit taking through production methods or by stealing such as the Englishmen did by ciphoning off of our wealth for 250 years. This will help you understand what I wrote as follows:

The same Guna is in the humans too. Please don't get carried away by the preachers of 'civilization'. Ask them why the citadels of civilizations have been colonizing the world. Ask them why the U.S. and the U.K. went into Iraq.

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Saab!

I do understand and could connect the first part of naladiyar, but I miss the final part.

What I wanted to say is the root of the problem in Mumbai is one on survival rather than patriotism as the link suggest.

Though not an expert, I do have some rudimentary knowledge of the industrial union system.

I think the problem is more related to non-union labours or contract labours. Those people form the bulk of labour force and the locals from that group form the grass roots of political parties.

People migrate largely due to poor distribution of wealth. (I'm a bit unsettled with your english "simile".)

The inter-state immigration system will reduce the inevitable friction, will force the companies to spread-out and will eventually balance the distribution. I see a lot of good things from that point of view. It also helps to bring some healthy competition and inter-dependance between the states .

It works same like the BPO, If US and other affluent allowed everybody to move in without strict Immigration Laws, those companies short of labour will not source out they will pull everybody in resulting somewhat a scenario like Mumbai.

But I understand your concern, good-governance is a tall order to expect in India.

Regards

 

[Saab]

MMji

Political economy is a very complex subject.

I don't think this forum can be turned into a class room. My suggestion would be that if you are interested you should read a lot of literature on this subject and then discuss with some economists.

As regards the second part of naaladiyar:

சுரந்தமுதம் கற்றாதரல் போல் கரவாதளிப்பரேல்
உற்றார் உலகத்தவர்!

This means if you are like Nandini to give anything one wants then everybody will call you his relative! In other words since nobody can be like Nandini people come and go and that is the reality.

Patriotism is not an option for anyone to accept at one time and deny at another. Kamath is right in saying that as Indian you have a right to go and settled down anywhere in India.

Problem therefore is the lopsided economy that has to be fixed and not accepted. Your solution is to accept it which will not work with problems like this erupting ever so often.

You are talking about poor distribution of wealth. (?!) Can you tell me what you understand by that?

You have said:

It works same like the BPO, If US and other affluent allowed everybody to move in without strict Immigration Laws, those companies short of labour will not source out they will pull everybody in resulting somewhat a scenario like Mumbai.

It is not true. Outsourcing is done to benefit from cheap labour elsewhere. Bringing people into the U.S. is costly and that is why those American companies outsource their jobs.

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Saab!

Actually I tried to understand some terms like inflation, seems to be many definitions and different methods to arrive at the inflation factors etc... Not an easy subject or too many ideas complicating the whole subject.

Thanks for your explanation on Naladiyar. I got it after careful reading - surandamudam - SURAANDA + AMUDAM = AMUDASURABI.
kANRU + AA = Karra - Kanrai Ennra Pasu - Like milk yielding cow to its calf
Karavathaliparel - If ones gives without asking
then the one become a relative to all.

On patriotism..
Just my preceptions....

You might very well know that " Unnarve Arrivai Tharum" - One's intellect depends on ones consciousness.

At first we are conscious and feel attached to our Home, then to our town, then to our state and then to our country. These gradation are relative facts or sathyams.

The reason we migrate to different country, because we need to support our home. This is a primal instinct. If one's basic necessity is taken care of then we can expect him to be attached to the state and if that's taken care of then to the country.

The Marathis or even Tamils will resent, if their jobs are at stake by people belonging to other states. This is especially strong in the case of low-skilled workers .In the name of patriotism if one expect them to accomodate without addressing the survival concerns of locals then it is a reciepe for bitter resentment and chaos among them.

The Marathis will defiently celebrate "Dhoni" a Bihari if he win some match for India. That's a different level, they are not threatend.

Just my preceptions...

On poor distribution of wealth....

If we take a country and compared to our body , then the wealth or source of income to survive is like blood. A good body with sound heart will send the purified blood to all the parts of body. The parts of the body will do their duty perfectly as designed - An healthy order.

Likewise a good governance, should ensure a means for survival to the people in all parts of the country. The people in turn will discharge their duty according to their capacity.

On outsourcing..

That's precisely what I'm telling. The interstate immigration rule will drive out the companies in Mumbai for cheaper destinations like Bihar or other states where the laws are buisness friendly with cheap labour which will in turn create a balance and stability.

I agree with you on the cost as one of the factor for outsourcing. But there are also other factors like , immigration,union laws and the attitude of people in affluent countries towards work all these factors also played their little part in outsourcing. Is it not?

Regards

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Saab!

I miss this point. You have some new/or time tested ideas on restructuring the economy I suppose. Could you enlighten us.

Problem therefore is the lopsided economy that has to be fixed and not accepted. Your solution is to accept it which will not work with problems like this erupting ever so often.

Thanks

 

[Saab]

MMji,

There are a number of items on which I can give you answers. May be I will, later. But you see when you make a statement such statement has to be perfectly logical not partially logical. I thought the logical problems have to be solved first so there is clarity in the mind of the questioner. For example:

The reason we migrate to different country, because we need to support our home.

In the above statement 'migrating to another country' is not the only reason to support home. The means of 'supporting home' could be going to work next door to which you can walk or going to work five miles away for which you commute. If everything is equal with regard to work, whether it is next door or five miles away or in Saudi Arabia then your automatic choice would be going to work next door. But when you begin to choose work five miles away or in Saudi Arabia then the presupposition that 'everything is equal with regard to work' is invalid. You make a preference on something that is unequal. In the case of choosing work next door is because it is so close to home and would make no sense to go five miles or Saudi Arabia for the same money. But if you were to make a preference to go to Saudi Arabia then you find something luring you such as more money even though there may be cultural disadvantage in going to Saudi Arabia. Given this explanation let us test your statement where we replace the words 'migrating to another country' with 'migrating to Saudi Arabia'. Your statement would read:

The reason we migrate to Saudi Arabia, because we need to support our home.

Your statement still appears to make sense however it lacks focus as the reason is a little more than supporting 'our home'. The exact reason is there is more money in Saudi Arabia. That was the luring point. Now if you read the first two lines of naaladiyaar it would make more sense! 'பழுத்த மரம்' is the attraction and the ultimate reason!

If you agree with my logic, then please go back to your posting and see if you would have made changes to it.

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Saab!

At one point of time - say before 15-20 years back - It is hard to get some meaningful employment to support a family for many.

This is the primal reason for many to migrate. It is also the same reason for many to migrate from villages - Agraharams are sucked out of life - due to this primal reason lack of adequate support to sustain a family. The hardship at one place coupled with availabilty of resources at city drove us out.

In the same vien..
Poor governance of cities, in terms of Law and Order,lack of infrastructure, water scarcity,pollution, employment .... factors like this and as you told the lure of money all played their parts.

Regards

 

[Saab]

MMji,

You are right! It brings us back to where we started. People go in search of greener pastures! And wherever we go we make that place our home!

 

[malgova.mango]

Sri Saab!

My point is not against migration. I'm not saying biharis or the case any others should not migrate.

The point I want to make is state government inaction in not managing the migration. There is no pro-active policies to address the concern on insecurities to the locals which is not fair.

If you take all the developed countires they have immigration rules safe gaurding their citizens without comprimising the developmental issues. Which makes life easy for both the immigrants and locals.

By negelecting the core -issue of migration and accusing the locals as unpatriotic is not a good assessment. My humble opinion.

Regards

P.S - any assessment without considering the empirical facts or vyavahairka sathyas will never work.

 

[Saab]

MMji,

No law should impede the free movement of citizens within a country. There is no such law that would prohibit migration within the country in the west such as the U.S.A. or Canada for example. Such law, if ever enacted, would be declared ultra-vires the constitution for its restriction on citizens to move freely within a country.

Your suggestion would encourage fissiparous tendencies and cause disintegration of the country. It will encourage splitting up the country into ever so many small pieces by politicians like MK.

We should not lose sight of the big picture. Tomorrow Bihar might become prosperous and Maharashtra might decline in its fortunes. What would happen then?

A country is built on laws that sustain and strengthen it at all times.

Therefore I request you to think of a solution to the problem within this framework.

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Saab!

I'm not against movement of citizens as tourists. But any mass migration of low or unskilled workers seeking employment in another state should be managed and not neglected. The problem in Mumbai is related to this and nothing to do woth patriotism.

In china this is practised and it works.

In US or canada - do you have this problem of low skilled workers snatching jobs from other states? Also they are homogeneous states , there is no linguistic division among them they still see themselves belong to ethnic groups from europes there is no deep rooted conscious that identify them belonging to a particular state. also it is a land of plenty. All these factors are to be considered.

Regards

 

[kunjuppu]

malgova,

actually, the u.s.'s southern border is as porous as india's border with bangla desh. the u.s. is unable to stop the influx of illegal immigrants.

the reasons that the illegals come to the u.s., is that they will find jobs. even low paying u.s. jobs are 100 times better than jobs/no jobs back home.

you are absolutely right, in that the people most impacted are those at the lower end of the economic scale. since in the u.s. it is mostly blacks and legal hispanics, the whites are not impacted.

much as the whites care about the shifting population groups, the whites are the biggest employers of the illegals. it is easier said, than done, not to employ illegals. there are laws in the u.s., but the punishments are small.

the illegals deported are few in number, and they barely arrive at their home country, than to make the trek back again to the u.s. to them it is worth it.

this is a different type of invasion, found only in the 20/21 centuries.

one favourite method of illegals forcing their stay in the host country, is to burn their passports. since they are without papers, no country, will accept them back.

this is done in large numbers by africans coming to europe. same with bangla deshis coming to india. everyone knows who they are, but unable to ship them back. soon they have relatives and family, and it is lost case.

one country that did keep foreigners away successfully was south africa. they had passes for every citizen, and blacks were restricted to movement and travel. the blacks were also randomely checked for passes, and the punishment was stiff. it kept illegals out of south africa.

since end of apartheid, the pass system has gone wayside. the net effect of it, is the invasion of 10 million illegals in south africa, from all over africa. to the others, south africa is heaven. these illegals, once they cross the border, blend in the large cities.

just a few days ago, there was large scale rioting in johannesburg by south african blacks against blacks from other parts of africa. several were killed. not sure if the south african black government would resort to citizenship passes again. it was cruel. but it worked.

china needs passports for its rural citizens to come to the cities. this is a big procedure and the system is corrupt to the core. bribery of the local communist party officials is rampant. but again it does the job. nobody in the city dare hire a chinese from the rural area unless the permit pass is produced. it works.

not quite sure, how we can resolve india crisis. nowadays i hear the manual labour in several places in tamil nadu are done by north indians and bangla deshis. not sure how far that is true.

it is a complex issue. i grew up with the rise of shiv sena in bombay. although no one i knew was physically assaulted, i had a couple of friends from madras who briefly lived in bombay, and came back, due to violence of shiv sena.

all this is economic. when a country does well, its own citizens move up the ladder, and the bottom level jobs are vacant. these are service jobs. one way to resolve it, is to have high wages for these jobs, so that they attract enough of the homegrown labour. this is the scandinavian solution.

economic growth also demands labour. with increased education, population growth stalls. just look at our own community, which is not replacing itself. it is not the first one in the world in such predicament, but only following the footsteps of other groups going through the same socio-economic process.

thus scarcity is created for labour. which needs foreigners as there are not enough home grown folks to do the jobs.

everything in this world is interconnected.

 

[Saab]

Thanks kunjuppu for explaining to MMji the state of affairs in your part of the world.

MMji, China is the most tyrannical and oppressive country in the world. Do you know that they practice the most inhuman form of family planning? They are the incarnation of the meanest asuric forces on earth and they have to be destroyed not emulated.

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Kunjuppu,

I heard that some of the Latinos, once they cross into the U.S., drive as far north as to the Canadian border and seek political asylum. And the Canadians have a very lax asylum rules that every asylum seeker is put up in a hotel and given food until a hearing takes place and such hearing could take months! Won't it make your govt. go bankrupt?

 

[Ramaa]

Dear MMji,

The problems that you detail is part of the post-colonial effect. This is not only seen in India but in Pakistan and Bangladesh too. A bold abandonment of the classical political economy of the west and reverting to our dhaarmic system is the only panacea. Otherwise we will be worse off in repeating the problems in greater frequency.

In as much as the Capitalist economy has gained worldwide currency, its ills are going to affect in the most intensive fashion on the global inhabitants. The third world war would become inevitable for that is how the crises are sought to be resolved. But the third world war is the most unthinkable to happen yet we know such a thing happened in Kurukshethra.

 

[kunjuppu]

ramaa,

it is true that asylum seekers drive across u.s. and seek asylum in canada at the border.

not sure how much the government spends. but there are not that many opportunities in canada for work like the u.s.

most stay in u.s. for jobs, and also have relatives and fellow countrymen there.

 

[Saab]

The pitiable stance of the Congress Party

Have you ever before seen this new definition of Hindutva? According to Prithvijar Chavan, Hindutva means raising the matter of terrorism.

Here is the evidence:
Question by Sheela Bhatt: In this election the BJP didn't raise Hindutva. Right?
Answer by Congress leader Prithviraj Chavan who was in charge of the Karnataka elections: They indirectly raised the Hindutva issue by raising the matter of terrorism! They tried to target a particular community alleging that they are responsible for terrorism. If you compare the record of the BJP and NDA government they have a pathetic record of tackling terrorism, still they kept on talking about the recent incidents. They had no other issue to talk about because their performance in the Karnataka government was pathetic so they kept talking about national issues in the assembly elections.


http://www.rediff. com/news/ 2008/may/ 25inter.htm

 

[malgova.mango]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Sri Saab![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You've missed my points. [/FONT]

• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The tension is due to neglection of the protection by the state for its lower rung people. They feel defenceless , the best way of defence is offence and so they take refuge in parties like SS and unleash the violence. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The migration issues, is to be managed and not to be neglected. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It has nothing to do with patriotism[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]These are the main points.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On China... Please treat this as a fringe issue related to the main topics[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I've mixed feelings.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Their occupation of Tibet is a disturbing issue. Apart from that one sticky issue, they outclass any government in the world. They are very good in management Look at their come-back .[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]They are formidable in every sector, military,sports,economy , science, space technology , pulling investments– all this without the knowledge of English and within 30 years or so. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Their people I've seen them at personal level . They don't feel their govt. that oppressive as you put it. They 've mixed feelings like any other citizens of the world about their government and secretly very proud of their recent achievements.[/FONT]

Just some good points crossed , while acknowledging your bad points on china.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Regards[/FONT]

 

[malgova.mango]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Sri RamAA![/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I'm somewhat intrigued about it. How could you convince the world in a democratic setup, for the welfare one needs enlightened intelligence and commitment to that intelligence is the only way for human fulfillment. Duly considering the nature of humans , who is subject to many mind-complexes, it is easy to confuse and exploit them. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]For Dharmic culture – One mighty King who lovingly sees the subjects as his children a sort of enlightened despotism is the only answer. For that we need a lot of punyams from the people. [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Till then we need to manage, we can't be neglecting or avoiding the issues. What is done, is to be done – right?[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Regards[/FONT]

 

[malgova.mango]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Sri Kunjuppu![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You are worldly wise and your knowledge on international affairs definetly enrich us. Your points reinforce my logics. Much Thanks.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Re – the issue is not that problematic as it seems. The governance or administrators should not have a myopic view in defining the success of a society. As an old adage says “Muthal Konal Mutrrum konal”.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As an example to ponder, Let me illustrate... [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Look at Indonesian tribals – they feel now very secure in their community , to them billions of dollars means nothing. They cherish bonding between them. In their own way they learn to forge a symbiotic living with nature. There needs are meagre and there dependance on trade and commerce is to the bare minimum. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now Indonesian administrator, in their view the tribal meant not a successful community, they felt the tribals are backward and they force them to be educated in modern ways to better them. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now the poor tribals, they for sure going to miss their culture in years to come. They may have a better standard of living in terms of material comfort due to intervention, which to the eyes of Indonesian administrators mean successful community, but the tribals are going to surely miss the emotional comfort of their community. The community would disintegrate. The material comfort will gradually wedge the members of the community apart. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This myopic view of defining success in terms of material progress is the root cause of our problem.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Could you agree sir?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Regards[/FONT]

 

[kunjuppu]

malgova,

i agree. whether it be tribals in indonesia, india or brazil, they have a way of contented life, i think. i think it is also threatened and inevitably will be changed by external forces. such is reality.

sad it may be. also when i mean tribals, it is just only a term to identify these ancient groups, and nobody should treat this as deragatory.

this is happening in chhatisgarh or orissa or bihar in tribal lands, where huge mines and steel mills are coming, displacing an ancient way of life.

while i agree with you 100% malgova, i do not have even an iota of a suggestion as to how this violent change process could be softened, let alone stopped.

one small request. i am no more wise than the cockroach hiding under my bed. please do not confer attributes to me, which i am not. i thank you for the same.