intercaste marriage

[RVR]

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Before talking about science, let Chautala offer himself for dna tests and prove that everyone of his gotra descend from a common founding father.

Khap Panchayat diktats resulted in the recent murder of Manoj and Babli of Karora village in Kaithal district who were killed for marrying sau-gotra (same clan): Five to hang for khap death diktat - India - The Times of India

Meeting Chidambaram is a publicity stunt by Chautala who wants the murderers to be released.

After all his corrupt practices, now Chautala in his old age has nothing else to make politics out, so he is using such causes for publicity.

What a shame.

[Love live the right wing - way to go - you are our great hindu taliban - please kill more people who marry for love]. The Khap already killed another couple (Ved Pal and Sonia) before: Will Khap killers get away with murder?- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

This is another khap panchayat diktat: Khap forces couple to seek death in Barmer - India - The Times of India(Just who are these khap panchayat people to pass law sentences - shows how lawless india is - anyone can make an attempt to take law into his hands - does not matter if it is a politician or anyone else).

Both Congress Party's Jindal and their main opponent Chautala are having same views in Haryana about same gothra marriage and intercaste marriage. Let us not blame Chautala alone.

It only shows both the ruling and opposition party doesn't want to abandon castes in politics for reasons best known to them.

All the political parties in parliament want caste based census for obvious reasons and the Prime Minister has also virtually agreed for the same.

Caste-based census decision soon: PM

I am just bringing to highlight agenda of all our politicians in their firm belief in caste based politics.

When the rulers doesn't want to abolish castes, what is the use of talking about abolishing castes in this forum?

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Both Congress Party's Jindal and their main opponent Chautala are having same views in Haryana about same gothra marriage and intercaste marriage. Let us not blame Chautala alone.

Jindal is saving his skin. These uneducated Khap fools are threatening MLAs and MPS: Panchayat warns MPs & MLAs: Support khap stance or face ire - India - The Times of India

It only shows both the ruling and opposition party doesn't want to abandon castes in politics for reasons best known to them.

All the political parties in parliament want caste based census for obvious reasons and the Prime Minister has also virtually agreed for the same.

Caste-based census decision soon: PM

I am just bringing to highlight agenda of all our politicians in their firm belief in caste based politics.

When the rulers doesn't want to abolish castes, what is the use of talking about abolishing castes in this forum?

All the best

Nehru might have suffered from Islamo-philia, but Indira Gandhi was different. She associated herself with swamis like Chandraswami. The congress symbol of the hand is based after a particualr pontiff whom she went to meet and he raised his hand (which she took as a blessing). Till date, the congress remains a great protector of caste (despite sonia) and ofcourse, of mutts.

Politicians are ill-advised by so-called religious leaders. Even Mahatma Gandhi wanted the birth-based varna dharma to be followed. If religious leaders keep touting "caste as hinduism", obviously you cannot expect people to give it up easily, do you?

No point in projecting present-day brahmins as a totally infallible group.

Btw, am not talking about abolishing castes in this forum. I was only speaking of the fluid varna model, which i favor. Am not sure you understand the difference b/w the fluid varna model and the rigid dharmashastra-based caste model (i say so bcoz i read your post on the Arya Samaj in the Joseph Iyengar thread - http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/religion/3849-joseph-iyengar.html#post41941 )

Regards and Best wishes.

 

[RVR]

Jindal is saving his skin. These uneducated Khap fools are threatening MLAs and MPS: Panchayat warns MPs & MLAs: Support khap stance or face ire - India - The Times of India

Nehru might have suffered from Islamo-philia, but Indira Gandhi was different. She associated herself with swamis like Chandraswami. The congress symbol of the hand is based after a particualr pontiff whom she went to meet and he raised his hand (which she took as a blessing). Till date, the congress remains a great protector of caste (despite sonia) and ofcourse, of mutts.

Politicians are ill-advised by so-called religious leaders. Even Mahatma Gandhi wanted the birth-based varna dharma to be followed. If religious leaders keep touting "caste as hinduism", obviously you cannot expect people to give it up easily, do you?

No point in projecting present-day brahmins as a totally infallible group.

Btw, am not talking about abolishing castes in this forum. I was only speaking of the fluid varna model, which i favor. Am not sure you understand the difference b/w the fluid varna model and the rigid dharmashastra-based caste model (i say so bcoz i read your post on the Arya Samaj in the Joseph Iyengar thread - http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/religion/3849-joseph-iyengar.html#post41941 )

Regards and Best wishes.

Atleast now true colours are coming out.

Politicians irrespective of the party affiliation, doesn't want the caste system to go. I am surprised that even communists are no exception to this.

Unfortunately there is no single Hindu Guru who can command respect from all sections of Hindus and at the same time reform minded. If such a Guru gives a call for reform into casteless society within Hindus, I am sure a substantial section will listen.

In the absence of such a situation, it is better to concentrate on development of individual caste at local level without creating conflict among castes. It will create better environment for future integration of all castes once economic prosperity is achieved.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Atleast now true colours are coming out.

Politicians irrespective of the party affiliation, doesn't want the caste system to go. I am surprised that even communists are no exception to this.

Unfortunately there is no single Hindu Guru who can command respect from all sections of Hindus and at the same time reform minded. If such a Guru gives a call for reform into casteless society within Hindus, I am sure a substantial section will listen.

In the absence of such a situation, it is better to concentrate on development of individual caste at local level without creating conflict among castes. It will create better environment for future integration of all castes once economic prosperity is achieved.

All the best

You shd not be surprised. Afterall, the fodder for politicians unfortunately comes from religious leaders.

Our corrupt politicans are not like those kings of yore, nor do we have a single guru in the mold of the rishis of yore.

All politicans have their agenda, irrespective of their party affiliation.

Congress does not want caste to go away. For long, it has been synonymous with corruption (and keeping people poor).

We cannot keep decrying missionaries and politicians; and yet segregate people based on jati dharma (reality is that no one can follow jaati dharma today without some modification / adaptation).

Units like arya samaj and RSS have been making good contributions in keeping the tribals into the hindu fold.

Despite the riots and his reputation gone for a sixer, Modi (and deservingly so) remains untainted by any form of financial irregularity. Yet, we cannot say BJP is free from any corruption either.

Similarly, Dravidian parties have not developed southern parts of tamilnadu. They keep people poor.

Forget caste discrimination, am not sure any political party even wants poverty to be eradicated.

Only the Kali of this yuga dances away in glory...

 

[nachi naga]

happyhindu,

fluids do help for progeny either way.i am glad at least fluid varna dharma is being accepted.scriptures are getting validated again and again,hail to mothers,hail to fathers,hail to guests,hail to teachers,hail to lord...for keeping us together as humanity,thank you lord.

 

[happyhindu]

happyhindu,

fluids do help for progeny either way.i am glad at least fluid varna dharma is being accepted.scriptures are getting validated again and again,hail to mothers,hail to fathers,hail to guests,hail to teachers,hail to lord...for keeping us together as humanity,thank you lord.

nn,

in all my posts so far i have always supported the fluid varna model.

if no vedapatshala will take in NBs for vedic education, atleast let them not oppose other institutions like arya samaj who do.

imo, its not possible to keep moksham as a preserve of a few.

a person who seeks veda gnanam, either for sanyasam or purohitam, in all earnestness, shd not be turned away on the basis of his caste (birth).

there won't be many takers for the rigours of it -- but whatever few show any interest in it, i feel, its not right to turn them away.

this is the only way (i think) hindu dharma will grow.

this is purely my personal opinion.

i have noting to say abt some ppl close to me who will not accept anyone apart frm a brahmin for any form of religious service.

they are elderly people. they are very right in their explanations. but somehow from the other side of religiosity, it does not seem right either...atleast from the social pov it does not seem right..

all humans have every right to live a life of dignity (if they wish to do so).

regards.

 

[nachi naga]

hh,

nn,

in all my posts so far i have always supported the fluid varna model.

if no vedapatshala will take in NBs for vedic education, atleast let them not oppose other institutions like arya samaj who do.

happyhindu,which vedapatashala are you referring to?who have refused admission to NB's.Even assuming they are opposing,aren't the numerical majority NB's?do they have to LISTEN,to those opposing vedapatashalas,refusing admissions.Coming to admission's,isn't the right of every school,that it maintains a policy,as ascertained by the administrator's or NO?

imo, its not possible to keep moksham as a preserve of a few.

i agree with you about moksham for all,as that is the goal,of every sanathana dharma aka hindu adherents.diff schools have a technique.is it fair to have a guideline symettry?for all as one,isn't intelligent quotient and herditary genes not a matter of concern,plz think.

a person who seeks veda gnanam, either for sanyasam or purohitam, in all earnestness, shd not be turned away on the basis of his caste (birth).

just becoz a school,has a way of doing things,that does not mean,they shud change their policy.by proving to the school in real life,that caste by birth only,is not the only way,but also if not born as brahmins,can be done,is another way.such schools also exist today hh.

there won't be many takers for the rigours of it -- but whatever few show any interest in it, i feel, its not right to turn them away.

i feel your thots.but who has the authority to pass such sweeping judgements.in spiritual life,each individual has to have the experiance individually.every guru parampara follows this model.

this is the only way (i think) hindu dharma will grow.

dharma protects itself by its dharma as its sanathana,isn't it?

this is purely my personal opinion.

me too,i am expressing my opinion,NOT an edict,as i am not a bonafide acharya.

i have noting to say abt some ppl close to me who will not accept anyone apart frm a brahmin for any form of religious service.

old customs die hard.in fact i want women to be purohitar's too.as well as acharyas.

they are elderly people. they are very right in their explanations. but somehow from the other side of religiosity, it does not seem right either...atleast from the social pov it does not seem right..

imo,i want to listen to elder's,as they have anubhavam or experiance.

all humans have every right to live a life of dignity (if they wish to do so).

regards.

dignity for all is happening hh.vested interests create divisions amongst us,so that they can rule us.

 

[rbalajiv]

Above all the comments, there are lots of practical difficulties to continue the rituals after the intercast marriage...

 

[C RAVI]

Hi

What are the implications of marrying a girl from another Caste .

Can the boy Still practice the brahmin rituals ? like 'tarpanam'
The second generation , Can they follow the Brahmin culture ?

regs

Dear Mr.Vinunath,

Love to fellow humans beings is the greatest of all. When some one falls in love with a person of another cast, one should not worry about the specific culture to follow as per one's wish.

If a Brahmin guy sincerely loves a Non-Brahmin girl or v.v., than all the initiatives need to be zeroed-in on getting married and live with peace and happiness.

Love your love for ever flawlessly, do your nithya karma the way you want, allow the spouse to do on his/her own, and live with love, respect and dignity - Should be the motto.

Teach your practices to your offspring and keep going. If the second generation follows, its fine...otherwise don't worry, live your life fully with love for all and devotion to God - Should be the best way to live the present life for oneself.

Instead of running away from the true love, it is must and the best to live for the love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1ZqdqVhORk

 

[kunjuppu]

personally, i do not feel, that the thought of rituals should forbid a person from marrying one's choice.

i am quite sure, each case is different, and ways can be found to deal with the situations, where true love, affection, understanding and above all 'sense of accommodation' prevails.

the youth, must be encouraged by the elders, in these situations, and to hold the handling of rituals as a barrier to marrying one of choice, is but another obstacle inserted by a neanderthal attitude towards what is but naturally the best feeling between two humans ie love.

apparently, from many a recent wedding invitations, i find that in india as well as in the uscanada regions, our youth give two hoots to the concept of caste.

all marriages this year for which i have been invited, have been within the hindu fold. but right across castes and region lines. which tells me, that in many a ways, we are moving towards a new form of hinduism.

the icing on the cake was a few days ago: when a young man whom i admire very much announced his wedding to me. a bright sunny young lad, with a remarkable weltanschaung.

yes, this marriage too is out of caste.

needless to quote here my feelings of joy and best wishes along with prayers for the new young couple, who happen to marry on the same calendar date that i did....... 30 years ago.

 

[Raghy]

Respectable members,

Greetings. I don't see the connection between intercaste marriages and performing rituals. Hare Krsna devotees are masters in performing rituals; they are mlechas though. What is ritual anyway? most of the things we do are rituals which differ from place to place and even from family to family. If one likes to maintain the rituals, for whatever reasons, then intercaste marriages may not cause any upset in the rituals. But outsiders may upset the cart though; for example, a sastry may refuse to perform a ritual for an intercaste family or other brahmins or other castes may decline to take part in a ritual performed by an intercaste family. So, in my opinion, intercaste marriage per se may not cause hinderence to the performance of rituals, if they wish to perform.

Cheers!

 

[sapthajihva]

Varna sankara is prohibited.

Such offsprings are not given the 'adhikaram' by shasthras to perform brahmanical rituals.

The fact that many people do, is a different aspect by itself, and has no bearing on the edicts of the shasthras.

If one believes in karma and vedas, then follow as prescribed. Otherwise do whatever you want; why should it be supported by any logic? But please do not say that it can be done and there is nothing wrong it that. You are not the masters who wrote the shasthras, and neither are you qualified as their equals; you are not the spokesperson for the community.

Love is different; karma is different. They have their places...

I am not speaking in pain or in anguish, but just to point out the facts, lest it be understood that karma can be manipulated like model clay.

Regards,

 

[happyhindu]

My caste is Indian, says Amitabh Bachchan - India - The Times of India - i add myself to the list that is called INDIAN. And someone always happy to be just that.

 

[nachi naga]

personally, i do not feel, that the thought of rituals should forbid a person from marrying one's choice.

i am quite sure, each case is different, and ways can be found to deal with the situations, where true love, affection, understanding and above all 'sense of accommodation' prevails.

the youth, must be encouraged by the elders, in these situations, and to hold the handling of rituals as a barrier to marrying one of choice, is but another obstacle inserted by a neanderthal attitude towards what is but naturally the best feeling between two humans ie love.

apparently, from many a recent wedding invitations, i find that in india as well as in the uscanada regions, our youth give two hoots to the concept of caste.

all marriages this year for which i have been invited, have been within the hindu fold. but right across castes and region lines. which tells me, that in many a ways, we are moving towards a new form of hinduism.

the icing on the cake was a few days ago: when a young man whom i admire very much announced his wedding to me. a bright sunny young lad, with a remarkable weltanschaung.

yes, this marriage too is out of caste.

needless to quote here my feelings of joy and best wishes along with prayers for the new young couple, who happen to marry on the same calendar date that i did....... 30 years ago.

kunjuppu our leaders are role models in india.indira gandhi married a parsi,out of caste.mgr married janaky as second wife,revolutionar leader,out of case.jayalalithaa married sobhan babu,out of caste.i married within caste out of tamil tribe.

so,its not that only us canada regions all these things are happening.parents in india should change or not change,its their choice,similiarly for the youngsters too,its their choice,they can do whatever they want.Freedom,is your right.Assert it.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sapthajhiva said:-

Such offsprings are not given the 'adhikaram' by shasthras to perform brahmanical rituals.

The fact that many people do, is a different aspect by itself, and has no bearing on the edicts of the shasthras.

Sri.Sapthajhiva, Greetings. Rituals are just that; rituals. They may not have any bearings on shastras; there is no reason for that. At the end of the day, performance of a ritual is a personal thing.

If one believes in karma and vedas, then follow as prescribed. Otherwise do whatever you want; why should it be supported by any logic?

I suppose, everything is based on some sort of logic, is it not? To maintain belief in karma and following shastras and performing rituals as prescribed carries one set of logic; maintaining freedom to perform the rituals on a personal level is a different set of logic.

But please do not say that it can be done and there is nothing wrong it that. You are not the masters who wrote the shasthras, and neither are you qualified as their equals; you are not the spokesperson for the community.

Kindly pardon me, please. Rituals can be done and there is nothing wrong with that. I need not be the master who wrote the sashtras or the community spokesperson to say that. It is the freedom of choice. Such rituals performed through exercising one's freedom of choice are not said to be effective; nor they are said to confirm sashtras anyway; so, what is the restriction if one wishes to perform it on a personal scale?

Love is different; karma is different. They have their places...

Love causes attachment. Karma is a symbol of attachment. Only persons with attachments perform karmas. Love and karma are entwined.

Cheers!

 

[sapthajihva]

Greetings Shri Raghy,

.... Rituals are just that; rituals. They may not have any bearings on shastras; there is no reason for that. At the end of the day, performance of a ritual is a personal thing.

The above may be your personal opinion; and it would remain just that. Nothing more.

I suppose, everything is based on some sort of logic, is it not? To maintain belief in karma and following shastras and performing rituals as prescribed carries one set of logic; maintaining freedom to perform the rituals on a personal level is a different set of logic.

It is not logic; it is awareness and acceptance. Logic stretches only till where the senses dare; no more.

... so, what is the restriction if one wishes to perform it on a personal scale?

On a personal scale, one may do anything; karmas fructify only when they are done as per the shasthras.

Love causes attachment. Karma is a symbol of attachment. Only persons with attachments perform karmas. Love and karma are entwined.

Acceptance of karma is devoid of love or hate...

Regards,

 

[Nara]

....On a personal scale, one may do anything; karmas fructify only when they are done as per the shasthras.

Saptha, I am not sure what you mean by fructify, but so far as what I have gathered, karma accrues whether it is done as per shasthras or not.

Karma falls into three groups, (i) papa, (ii) punya, and (iii) neither papa or punya. Papa accrues through the action of not performing ordained karma like nitya and naimitika karma, or doing anything that is forbidden by shasthras.

Punya accrues when karma, outside of prescribed ones, done in accord with shasthras, like homam etc. Visiting temples, bathing in certain rivers are some more examples of this.

Involuntary actions like blinking of eyes etc., result in neither papa nor punya.

So, karma, whether done as per shashthras or not, is said to give result. Whether the result is desirable or not depends on the above. Perhaps by fructify you mean punya, but not papa.

In this context, SVs view both punya and papa as impediments to moksha. While papa is self evidently an impediment, punya is considered as golden handcuffs, but handcuffs nevertheless, This is because punya is supposed to take you only to swargam, which is still part of samsara, and not to Sri vaikuntam. Only when all karma are removed can one go to Sri Vaikuntam, never to return to samsara. This is why SVs recite what is called Sathvika Thyagam before starting any karma and after finishing any karma.

Cheers!

 

[sapthajihva]

Shri Nara,

... I am not sure what you mean by fructify, but so far as what I have gathered, karma accrues whether it is done as per shasthras or not.

Yes; I meant the results of karma - papam or punyam.

Karma falls into three groups, (i) papa, (ii) punya, and (iii) neither papa or punya....

Karma is for the athma, and not for the sareera, and for that, it needs to do conscious action (throught the sareera), which alone will bring in papam or punyam.

Achit matter can never be the initiator of karma without the chit. So, the blinking of the eye, breathing etc., are due to the athma in the body. Such actions though involuntary, are punyam in that they sustain the sareera, through which the athma can carry on its prarabdha. But then, such actions are again controlled by prarabdha itself.

I think the view of 'neither papa or punya' is a buddhist theory?

Regards,

 

[nachi naga]

destruction of ignorance,gives raise to creation,which in turn sustains it.inter community or inter caste marriage is a minority event.owing to modern education,caste is slowly getting replaced with compatibility matching,with different set of parameters.at the beginning of night,marriage is between consenting adult male & female.maintaining our traditional practices of marrying a brahmin is always good,when brahmins are determined b birth.when brahmins are determined by a set of living regulatory principles and not by birth,then problems arises in compatibility.both exist.our system is just tailor made and if one apes the cultures of other nations,we wil be doing stuff like them and they will ape our culture and doing stuff like us.unity in diversity.

 

[C RAVI]

destruction of ignorance,gives raise to creation,which in turn sustains it.inter community or inter caste marriage is a minority event.owing to modern education,caste is slowly getting replaced with compatibility matching,with different set of parameters.at the beginning of night,marriage is between consenting adult male & female.maintaining our traditional practices of marrying a brahmin is always good,when brahmins are determined b birth.when brahmins are determined by a set of living regulatory principles and not by birth,then problems arises in compatibility.both exist.our system is just tailor made and if one apes the cultures of other nations,we wil be doing stuff like them and they will ape our culture and doing stuff like us.unity in diversity.

waah waah...laajawaab....Laakhoan maey ek baath, aapkey andaajoan maey..

bahuth khoob :yo:

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sapthajhiva,

Greetings. With due respect to your opinions and faith, I wish to say, that following or performing rituals (and the lack of it too) is just personal choices. In my honest opinion, personal choices are not really for scrutiny. One may or may not help a person to uphold his/her personal choices, but should never hinder it. To seek logic for each and every action is not required, particularly if the actions are personal and harmless to anyone. Personaly I will not involve in such an action.

I am afraid, our discussion may invade each other's space, if we continue further. Now that we have clearly understood each other's stance on this matter, further discussion is not required either. So, with your permission, I wish to conclude our discussion. Thanks for imparting valuable opinions in this subject.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Shri Nara,Yes; I meant the results of karma - papam or punyam.

In that case, Saptha, you need to modify your view slightly if you want to be true to tradition.

The orthodox view is karma will fructify, to use your terminology, irrespective of whether the karma was done in accordance with shshtras or not. This is what Swami Sri Desikan says in his magnum opus, Srimat Rahasya Thraiya Saram (RTS). I give below the relevant Sri Sukhti from Chapter 5 under the explanation of the ஸ்வரூப, ஸ்திதி, ப்ரவ்ருத்தி, of பத்த ஜீவா:

प्रवृत्तिभेदம் पुण्य - पाप अनुभयरूप ங்களான त्रिविध-प्रवृत्ति களும்.
​

The present senior Srimat Azhagiya Singar (#45) of Srimat Ahobila Matam, in his commentary on RTS called ஸ்ரீமத் ரஹஸ்யத்ரயஸார விவரணம், explains each term in line with the commentaries of poorva acharyas as follows.

• Punyam: ஒரு பலத்துக்கு ஸாதநமாகச் செய்யும்படி விதிக்கப்பட்டுள்ள கர்மா புண்யமாகும்
• Papam: அவற்றிலேயே 'செய்யக்கூடாது என்று நிஷேதிக்கப்பட்டிருக்கும் கர்மா பாபமாகும்.
• Neither punyam nor papam: புண்யமும் பாபமும் ஆகாத சில செயல்கள் அநுபய ரூபங்களாகும்.

பத்த ஜீவர்கள், தேவர்கள் மநுஷ்யர்கள் திர்யக்குகள் ஸ்தாவரங்கள் என்று நால்வகைப்படுவர். இவர்களுள் தேவர் மநுஷ்யர் என்ற வகுப்பை சார்ந்த ஜீவர்களிடம் புண்ய கர்மாக்கள், பாப கர்மாக்கள், அநுபய ரூபங்களான கர்மாக்கள் மூன்றும் ஸம்பவிக்கும்.

(திர்யக் = animals)

The karma is supposed to accrue to the Jeeva, the chit in these bodies made of achit.

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

Sri.Sapthajhiva,

Greetings. With due respect to your opinions and faith, I wish to say, that following or performing rituals (and the lack of it too) is just personal choices. In my honest opinion, personal choices are not really for scrutiny. One may or may not help a person to uphold his/her personal choices, but should never hinder it. To seek logic for each and every action is not required, particularly if the actions are personal and harmless to anyone. Personaly I will not involve in such an action.

Cheers!

:yo:

Too much of discussions on Karma and Shareera may make us feel that we are useless...ound:

 

[sapthajihva]

Shri Nara,

...
The orthodox view is karma will fructify, to use your terminology, irrespective of whether the karma was done in accordance with shshtras or not.

To clarify, I meant that positive karma/punyam would accrue only if performed according to the shasthras. Did I miss something in your follow-up explanation?

Neither punyam nor papam: புண்யமும் பாபமும் ஆகாத சில செயல்கள் அநுபய ரூபங்களாகும்.

I must confess that I was ignorant of this; neither did I analyze involuntary actions as karma which would not affect the status of papam/punyam.

The reference you have given is valid; I find this type of karma explained only in the SV literature. Is there any other school which accepts this type of karma?

Thanks for the pointer.

Regards,

 

[renuka]

dear all...

Na Punyam Na Papam Na Saukhyam Na Dukham
Na Mantro Na Teertham Na Vedo Na Yajnaha
Aham Bhojanam Naiva Bhojyam Na Bhokta
Chidananda Rupa Shivoham Shivoham