Religious Conversion and freedom of religion

[CHANDRU1849]

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Thank you, sir, for a well-written post.
I agree with your POV.
I am not a scholar, but we need to counter the narrative of Islamaphobia, that will tear India apart.
These postings (most of them are crying wolf too many times) are baseless but gnaws at the basic fiber of India. The totally baseless charges are perpetuated to scare the average person.
It helps the politicians to polarize the voters, but in the long run, will hurt the country.

Whether conversion is myth or not, one thing is sure; change of demography affects the minority especially Hindus in India - Mallapuram in Kerala, Melvisharam in Tamil Nadu, border districts of Bihar and, of course, Kashmir and so on.

One thing is sure. Partition was not properly executed.

 

[prasad1]

Whether conversion is myth or not, one thing is sure; change of demography affects the minority especially Hindus in India - Mallapuram in Kerala, Melvisharam in Tamil Nadu, border districts of Bihar and, of course, Kashmir and so on.

One thing is sure. Partition was not properly executed.

If I may say,
You are born in the wrong century.
I am not for dividing India again.
There never was and never will be an ideal Partition.
It is called compromise. But your posting elsewhere says that you are not happy with the demarcation of Indian states as well.
I feel you have painted an impossible dream, and it will never be fulfilled.
I am sorry for you.

We have to live with reality as we know today.

 

[prasad1]

Can you please tell where will Tamilians go? It is said Indus Valley Civilization was Tamil.

What an imagination.
Indus valley civilization was called Dravidian not Tamilian.


The Harappan language is not directly attested, and its affiliation is uncertain since the Indus script is still undeciphered. A relationship with the Dravidian or Elamo-Dravidian language family is favoured by a section of scholars.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Can you please tell where will Tamilians go? It is said Indus Valley Civilization was Tamil.

If Tamilians and Aryans are both immigrants as implied then take the advise of Kamala Harris - Join the “collective fight” against bigotry, hatred and the growing anti-immigrant sentiment.

This is a. better Lesson for India to take! Austrian lesson may lead to தர்ம சங்கடம் - What will you do with Thulukkanatchiar? Kudha ka hukam Ranga ka khassam She will stay with Rangan!

Listen everybody - "யாவரும் கேளிர்" -


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...-fight-bigotry-sen-harris/article24118030.ece[SUP][/SUP]

 

[CHANDRU1849]

What an imagination.
Indus valley civilization was called Dravidian not Tamilian.


The Harappan language is not directly attested, and its affiliation is uncertain since the Indus script is still undeciphered. A relationship with the Dravidian or Elamo-Dravidian language family is favoured by a section of scholars.

What is the language of Dravidians in Indus Valley? Did they not speak any language? Or Sanskrit was the language spoken by Dravidians.

Many Historians believe Tamil is the oldest language.

It is said there was conflict between Saint Agasthiar and some other groups and he moved to the present Southern part of India.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

If I may say,
You are born in the wrong century.
I am not for dividing India again.
There never was and never will be an ideal Partition.
It is called compromise. But your posting elsewhere says that you are not happy with the demarcation of Indian states as well.
I feel you have painted an impossible dream, and it will never be fulfilled.
I am sorry for you.

We have to live with reality as we know today.

Who wanted partition. It was a decision taken by some group of people, whom you may admire, glorify and even treat as demi Gods.

You cannot say firmly what will happen after our life time. One thing is sure you may not be in a position to feel sorry or regret if it happens after our life time.

Reality will always bite.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

If Tamilians and Aryans are both immigrants as implied then take the advise of Kamala Harris - Join the “collective fight” against bigotry, hatred and the growing anti-immigrant sentiment.

This is a. better Lesson for India to take! Austrian lesson may lead to தர்ம சங்கடம் - What will you do with Thulukkanatchiar? Kudha ka hukam Ranga ka khassam She will stay with Rangan!

Listen everybody - "யாவரும் கேளிர்" -


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...-fight-bigotry-sen-harris/article24118030.ece

Tamilians may be immigrants from Sindh, which is now in Pakistan, if Indus Valley Civilization was purely Tamil. Aryans (Brahmins) could have turned the table if the above is true, but could not, as, you are very well aware, we are very brave people.

There is no point in seeking the advice of the lady mentioned, since large number of Brahmins (called as Aryans by Dravidians) left the State.

Regarding Thulukka Nachiar, I am not in a position to reply, since I am not a Vaishnavite.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

This is holy month of Ramzan Inter faith Iftar may be a positive gesture!

People are hosting inter-faith iftars at their homes to heal toxic notions about the religious ‘other’
Delhi resident Yashpal Saxena whose son Ankit was killed, allegedly by his Muslim girlfriend’s family, recently made headlines by hosting an inter-faith iftar


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-like-we-share-india/articleshow/64523929.cms

You can share the spirit of iftar not necessarily with கஞ்ஜி even with coca cola

https://youtu.be/mqw-ODqbGRo

 

[renuka]

If Tamilians and Aryans are both immigrants as implied then take the advise of Kamala Harris - Join the “collective fight” against bigotry, hatred and the growing anti-immigrant sentiment.

This is a. better Lesson for India to take! Austrian lesson may lead to தர்ம சங்கடம் - What will you do with Thulukkanatchiar? Kudha ka hukam Ranga ka khassam She will stay with Rangan!

Listen everybody - "யாவரும் கேளிர்" -


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...-fight-bigotry-sen-harris/article24118030.ece[SUP][/SUP]

During Ramadhan..Thulluka Natchiar would be fasting..does her " husband" also keep fast?

 

[swathi25]

For arguments sake, it is good to talk about freedom of choice, expression etc. But, finally the sufferer is the Hindu Religion.

.

Yes Sir,

Between the devil and the deep sea.

We have more in this Forum who come here to preach about freedom of choice, expression, tolerance, etc.

Church Found Illegally Occupying Thiruparankundram Murugan Temple Lands


Read more at: https://swarajyamag.com/insta/churc...upying-thiruparankundram-murugan-temple-lands


Ancient Hindu Temple Encroached by Catholic Church in Tirunelveli, Tamil Nadu

Read more at: https://www.hindupost.in/society-culture/13167/

Let us tolerate the encroachments also.

 

[Vaagmi]

This is a. better Lesson for India to take! Austrian lesson may lead to தர்ம சங்கடம் - What will you do with Thulukkanatchiar? Kudha ka hukam Ranga ka khassam She will stay with Rangan!

During Ramadhan..Thulluka Natchiar would be fasting..does her " husband" also keep fast?

Thulukkanatchiar may be Elizabeth Taylor or even worse for you. But it is not so for a sizable section of believers in the country. By your post you have wantonly hurt their sentiments.

It would be better not to venture into religion if your understanding of the subject happens to be at the gutter level.

Now please read this:

The thulukka Natchiyar worship in Srirangam is not what you have understood.

It is about a girl from a Badsha's family falling in love with Rangan's idol much against her religious belief and much against her parents and others' advice. And about Rangan accepting her surrender and granting that JivAtma sAyujyam. There is a lot of philosophic underpinning involved in the worship of that Thulukka Natchiyar which you may not understand. Even the folklore that is heard about the thulukkanatchiar does not speak about her as a thulukka woman in hijab.

 

[renuka]

Thulukkanatchiar may be Elizabeth Taylor or even worse for you. But it is not so for a sizable section of believers in the country. By your post you have wantonly hurt their sentiments.

It would be better not to venture into religion if your understanding of the subject happens to be at the gutter level.

Now please read this:

The thulukka Natchiyar worship in Srirangam is not what you have understood.

It is about a girl from a Badsha's family falling in love with Rangan's idol much against her religious belief and much against her parents and others' advice. And about Rangan accepting her surrender and granting that JivAtma sAyujyam. There is a lot of philosophic underpinning involved in the worship of that Thulukka Natchiyar which you may not understand. Even the folklore that is heard about the thulukkanatchiar does not speak about her as a thulukka woman in hijab.

It is like stupidly calling the Shivling, phallus.

Its not gutter level of understanding...its an important question.


Lets get technical here.

Why is a female bhakta a.k.a Thulluka Nachiyar given the status of a consort?
Cant she just be called a bhakta of the patron deity of Sri Rangam temple?

Now..if a male bhakta also attains Sayujyam why isnt he made a consort too?

If Sayujyam is becos of the surrender and Rangan ji accepting the surrender and granting that Jivatma an elevated status..why no Alwar is made a consort?

Is it becos a male "habibi" would not be acceptable?


Its so obvious we humans have been giving "consorts" to God purely based on our "orientation"..since a heterosexual pairing is acceptable, Gods got consorts in the name of Sayujyam.

 

[Vaagmi]

Religion is all about philosophy and belief system which arises from a 'basic search'.

As long as it remains personal or a like minded identifiable group's social activity it is okay because it does not invade others' privacy and rights. Only when you rub your religion on others it becomes obnoxious and needs to be subjected to scrutiny.

Politics is all about organizing ordinary masses towards a goal. Organizing happens in the name of several ikons. It can be race, religion, nationhood, language, color and even physical features. Politicians usually use these as the rallying points to organize large sections of society either to wage a war and win territoy, win election, usurp power or command economic resources.

When religion is used to organize people, it is usually countered by a similarly organized another religious group. It becomes a struggle for control and command. This is what is happening in India.

But it is also a fact that Hinduism never has coveted territory of others nor the flocks from other religions. It is a historic fact. And we have suffered a lot because of this high principle. The times are changing and hindus are also organising themselves in the name of religion to counter the proselytization and jihad onslaught let loose on them. When you corner a domestic pet, cat, it bares its fangs and fights back and hurts you.

Many people keep harping on the term Hindu. That it is not a religion, that the very word is of persian origin, that there is no monolythic religion called Hinduism. Now let us think about these following points:

1. The two major religions of the world Islam and Christianity also have divisions. They are not monolythic. The mainstremers never accept the others as Muslims/christians at all. They spiritedly fight them. Thus Shias are not accepted by Sunnies, Seventh Day adventists are not accepted by Syrian Christians etc., etc., Iraq fought Iran and Queen Mary burnt protestant christians tied at stacks in England-the mother of democracy. LOL.

2. Hindu religion has interpretational differences among the followers. Thus Vedas are accepted by all while their interpretations are not accepted. Atleast we do not come to blows. Nor do we take guns to shoot down other factions.

So the Hindus getting organized is the trend of the times. Nothing can stop it. And there is no need to imagine pogroms and concentration camps. It is not in the genes of Hindus. In modern democracy numbers represent power and when that number is threatened action is taken to set right and retain the advantage of power that the numbers give. And that is needed and is good for the society. Only a society which has a stable government can give its members peace and prosperity with security. For stability numbers have to be ,managed and that involves 0rganizing.

We have capable leaders and this country will never become Syria. But yes. Those who would conspire to destabilize will be dealt with firmly. It is all politics.

 

[Vaagmi]

Its not gutter level of understanding...its an important question.


Lets get technical here.

1) Why is a female bhakta a.k.a Thulluka Nachiyar given the status of a consort?
Cant she just be called a bhakta of the patron deity of Sri Rangam temple?

2) Now..if a male bhakta also attains Sayujyam why isnt he made a consort too?

3) If Sayujyam is becos of the surrender and Rangan ji accepting the surrender and granting that Jivatma an elevated status..why no Alwar is made a consort?

4) Is it becos a male "habibi" would not be acceptable?


5) Its so obvious we humans have been giving "consorts" to God purely based on our "orientation"..since a heterosexual pairing is acceptable, Gods got consorts in the name of Sayujyam.

Yes let us get technical:

1. Meaning of the word consort = a husband or wife especially of a monarch.
An anthropomorphic God form is itself the result of Man's inability to find anything better than an anthropomorphous form. He just does not know anything better than that form in the world, on the earth where he lives. And female bhakta with all the beauty, intelligence, grace, boldness and the most important motherly nature is represented as a female anthropomorphous entity. There need not be anyother special reason for that. Moreover at the philosophical and anthropological level there is a need to include female form at the highest level as otherwise it will become a subject of unnecessary and never ending speculation about the form itself. In vaishnavite philosophy, a consort is always a mother who understands the bhakta better and so pleads his/her case with God. (purushakAra).
So the JivAtma in that body of the girl when it attained sAyujyam has been aptly called a nAtchiyar meaning the consort. She was a bhakta before sAyujyam and became a consort after sAyujyam for the ardent bhaktas.

2. A male bhakta also becomes one with God after sAyujyam. Thus you will find the various Alwars who are worshipped as the different aspects of God. One Alwar is the Koustubam that is worn by God and another is the wart on God. Try to read the phillosophical background of religions before applying our inadequate scales of knowledge to measure or question them.

3. Alwars are also worshipped as aspects of God. Please refer to point 2 above.

4. Please read 2 above. I resent the imagery used.

5. Yes. We humans are trying to make the task of dealing with God entity easy by giving it a form, name, qualities/aspects etc., with only those materials we are familiar with. You call it "orientation". There is nothing creative or there is no sAyujyam in a homosexual pairing and that is perhaps the reason why we have consorts that are only female forms (more details can not be discussed here in the forum about this for obvious reasons). A century hence the picture may get changed. LOL

 

[a-TB]

Conversion is an Act of Violence
by Swami Dayananda Saraswati


Aggressive religions have no God-given right
to destroy ancient faiths and cultures
http://www.swamij.com/conversion-violence.htm

The link is not secure, so it did not work.
I googled for the title and came across this thread

https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=23119

I liked your post - why conversion is act of violence' - I think some people here who are arguing again and again may not have read it

 

[a-TB]

Religions that think they are exclusive and separate 'us and them' are menace to a society. They do not want to live and let live. Christianity and Islam require their followers to covert others by any means - call it enticing or using money power or whatever. They believe if you are not one of them you are doomed, destined to hell and an infidel.

Followers of these religions will destroy peace because we cannot have two 'exclusive feeling religion' in the earth. That is why there is so much hatred between Christian nations and Islamic nations today. Breaking India will be by people who glorify conversion which is actually violence (see post by Mr M Krishna - wonderful reference, powerful article).

People can have religious freedom to convert. But religions that feel exclusive - there must be education to stay away from them.

When a religion is exclusive they are disrespectful to others.

Some misguided people think they are being liberal and superior to other because they are broad minded to promote conversion.

Hindus have caste issues to solve. Hindus need self esteem. India needs to become an economic power. Then conversion by these exclusive religions will be marginalized

 

[a-TB]

Yes let us get technical:

1. Meaning of the word consort = a husband or wife especially of a monarch.
An anthropomorphic God form is itself the result of Man's inability to find anything better than an anthropomorphous form. He just does not know anything better than that form in the world, on the earth where he lives. And female bhakta with all the beauty, intelligence, grace, boldness and the most important motherly nature is represented as a female anthropomorphous entity. There need not be anyother special reason for that. Moreover at the philosophical and anthropological level there is a need to include female form at the highest level as otherwise it will become a subject of unnecessary and never ending speculation about the form itself. In vaishnavite philosophy, a consort is always a mother who understands the bhakta better and so pleads his/her case with God. (purushakAra).
So the JivAtma in that body of the girl when it attained sAyujyam has been aptly called a nAtchiyar meaning the consort. She was a bhakta before sAyujyam and became a consort after sAyujyam for the ardent bhaktas.

2. A male bhakta also becomes one with God after sAyujyam. Thus you will find the various Alwars who are worshipped as the different aspects of God. One Alwar is the Koustubam that is worn by God and another is the wart on God. Try to read the phillosophical background of religions before applying our inadequate scales of knowledge to measure or question them.

3. Alwars are also worshipped as aspects of God. Please refer to point 2 above.

4. Please read 2 above. I resent the imagery used.

5. Yes. We humans are trying to make the task of dealing with God entity easy by giving it a form, name, qualities/aspects etc., with only those materials we are familiar with. You call it "orientation". There is nothing creative or there is no sAyujyam in a homosexual pairing and that is perhaps the reason why we have consorts that are only female forms (more details can not be discussed here in the forum about this for obvious reasons). A century hence the picture may get changed. LOL

Your 'god concept' is a mental thing.

Mental thing has to be able to explain why homosexual consorts are not shown in temples. Homosexuality is in nature and is seen in pairing of animals also.
Is this god concept with a form rejects homosexuals? What does this god concept do when a homosexual surrenders also ?

These cannot be waved away as not issues with an LOL. LOL

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Thulukkanatchiar may be Elizabeth Taylor or even worse for you. But it is not so for a sizable section of believers in the country. By your post you have wantonly hurt their sentiments.

It would be better not to venture into religion if your understanding of the subject happens to be at the gutter level.(#36)

This thread is about religion and conversions ! Hence Thuluka Natchiar has a natural space and not wantonly parachuted here.Though sizeable with gutter understanding believe she is Sunatai one Phd scholar in religion raises a doubts and suggests she is Elizabeth Taylor!

Sarnagathi to only Narayana is Amma mandabam Pristine Cavery understanding But Ravanans of Dharavi gutters have 10 heads and think and understand in 10 different ways One head may see கண்ணண் /ராமன் in கருப்பு/நீல மேக வண்ணம் But another head may see காலன் in கருப்பு and Ambedkar in நீலம் and naturally the toxic others attitude is missing!

Looks polluted gutter thinking is ideal for diverse India and not pristine pure Alpine Austria or Amma mandabam cavery understanding!

 

[CHANDRU1849]

This is holy month of Ramzan Inter faith Iftar may be a positive gesture!

People are hosting inter-faith iftars at their homes to heal toxic notions about the religious ‘other’
Delhi resident Yashpal Saxena whose son Ankit was killed, allegedly by his Muslim girlfriend’s family, recently made headlines by hosting an inter-faith iftar


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-like-we-share-india/articleshow/64523929.cms

You can share the spirit of iftar not necessarily with கஞ்ஜி even with coca cola

https://youtu.be/mqw-ODqbGRo

Iftar gives an additional space for TN Politicians to talk about, sometimes controversial , subjects other than relevant to occasion.

The recent one is actor Sarath Kumar, who, with a topi, said he wouldn't remove his black shirt till Cauvery enters TN.

 

[Vaagmi]

Your 'god concept' is a mental thing.

Mental thing has to be able to explain why homosexual consorts are not shown in temples. Homosexuality is in nature and is seen in pairing of animals also.
Is this god concept with a form rejects homosexuals? What does this god concept do when a homosexual surrenders also ?
These cannot be waved away as not issues with an LOL. LOL

1. Please define what is homosexuality from your understanding of it. You may include the mental and physicals of it in your reply. If you want you may use the PM route. We can then have a discussion about surrender of a homosexual.

2. It appears you have serious problems with my LOLs. I find you can not miss a single LOL from me. While others take note and move on with the discussion of the topic in hand you somehow get stuck at the LOLs. Only after making a comment about the LOL you can move further. Something wrong with you. This is why I generally choose to ignore you here. I have made a deliberate attempt to get to you. Let me see how much you have grown up.

 

[Vaagmi]

Thulukkanatchiar may be Elizabeth Taylor or even worse for you. But it is not so for a sizable section of believers in the country. By your post you have wantonly hurt their sentiments.

It would be better not to venture into religion if your understanding of the subject happens to be at the gutter level.(#36)

This thread is about religion and conversions ! Hence Thuluka Natchiar has a natural space and not wantonly parachuted here.Though sizeable with gutter understanding believe she is Sunatai one Phd scholar in religion raises a doubts and suggests she is Elizabeth Taylor!

Sarnagathi to only Narayana is Amma mandabam Pristine Cavery understanding But Ravanans of Dharavi gutters have 10 heads and think and understand in 10 different ways One head may see கண்ணண் /ராமன் in கருப்பு/நீல மேக வண்ணம் But another head may see காலன் in கருப்பு and Ambedkar in நீலம் and naturally the toxic others attitude is missing!

Looks polluted gutter thinking is ideal for diverse India and not pristine pure Alpine Austria or Amma mandabam cavery understanding!

I need help here. If someone can help me, welcome. What is said in this post?

To the member:

Kindly enclose a Jambu Bhashyam with such posts in future. Time is precious. I have no time to go through posts repeatedly. So I choose to ignore. Thanks.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Ignoring - camouflage when retired hurt!

 

[Vaagmi]

Ignoring - camouflage when retired hurt!

Jambu Bhashyam - 2 please.

 

[a-TB]

1. Please define what is homosexuality from your understanding of it. You may include the mental and physicals of it in your reply. If you want you may use the PM route. We can then have a discussion about surrender of a homosexual.

2. It appears you have serious problems with my LOLs. I find you can not miss a single LOL from me. While others take note and move on with the discussion of the topic in hand you somehow get stuck at the LOLs. Only after making a comment about the LOL you can move further. Something wrong with you. This is why I generally choose to ignore you here. I have made a deliberate attempt to get to you. Let me see how much you have grown up.

OK,


1. My understanding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality
The above is well accepted view. I know people who are gay/lesbian. They are no different than any other person we come across except they are attracted to members of their own sex. How they have sex is obvious to most adults in this day and age.

2. Well your brand of LOL communicates something else. So presence or absence is part of the message. Let us see how mature your response is (notice: I did not say how mature you are - separating the post from the person ) .. I was going to add LOL , but resisted it !

Your response, please to item 1

 

[a-TB]

Thulukkanatchiar may be Elizabeth Taylor or even worse for you. But it is not so for a sizable section of believers in the country. By your post you have wantonly hurt their sentiments.

It would be better not to venture into religion if your understanding of the subject happens to be at the gutter level.(#36)

This thread is about religion and conversions ! Hence Thuluka Natchiar has a natural space and not wantonly parachuted here.Though sizeable with gutter understanding believe she is Sunatai one Phd scholar in religion raises a doubts and suggests she is Elizabeth Taylor!

Sarnagathi to only Narayana is Amma mandabam Pristine Cavery understanding But Ravanans of Dharavi gutters have 10 heads and think and understand in 10 different ways One head may see கண்ணண் /ராமன் in கருப்பு/நீல மேக வண்ணம் But another head may see காலன் in கருப்பு and Ambedkar in நீலம் and naturally the toxic others attitude is missing!

Looks polluted gutter thinking is ideal for diverse India and not pristine pure Alpine Austria or Amma mandabam cavery understanding!

Dear sparring partner:

Here is what my reaction is

Why do 'devotees' insist on adding Thulukkan to Natchiyar even after she has become a consort?

Human beings can see the same thing and have different reaction. Some are pure understanding and some can have gutter level understanding.

Why is the bringing up of Thulukka Natchiar in the thread (never knew about this until Madam JJ brought this up here) bring such a reaction from you ?

Does that show some hypocrisy of devotees that are not sure.

Another question: Why do you feel compelled to defend Lord Narayana even if someone says something negative. If he is the Lord of all , he is a Lord of that person also. Lord will take care of that person in his own way without a counsel. These are my questions ..

It is a not a Bhashyam but reasonable questions I think