is drinking okay?

[arratai_virumbi]

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sorry arattai. i think you are inferring incorrectly.

i may jest once in a while, but knowingly, at no time, i poke to fun.

in this instance, i was serious. hope that is ok.

thank you.

Sorry sir, not at all fair/ok.

You have given a fairly lengthy advise to me,

in the ways of engaging a discussion with person having opponent view. - here without even making one single attempt to engage on the discussion , you choose to condemn in the most severe manner.
Clearly there is no spirit of engagement here.

in the choice of words to sustain the discussion in healthy way - Look at your choice, one guy said my reasoning is comical, you said that he is " Kind " by saying that. - Sir, is that how you treat a fellow forumite having a difference of opinion from yours and that too, without even giving him a chance to explain his rationale? Is that what you set as an example for him to follow?

Sir, IMHO you failed to practise what you preached.

Thanks

 

[arratai_virumbi]

Looking around the recent posts, and the pattern of response, I think we are heading for another 'infestation', there by forcing the discussion to a grind-halt for few weeks..

I would request moderator Shri.KRS to train/teach/educate this New Member 'Arattai Virumbi' about the importance of using the tone of 'Engaged Dialogue"" in this forum.

Guess 'man of wits' took a reincarnation..

Beg your pardon ?!!!

 

[kunjuppu]

Sorry sir, not at all fair/ok.

You have given a fairly lengthy advise to me,

in the ways of engaging a discussion with person having opponent view. - here without even making one single attempt to engage on the discussion , you choose to condemn in the most severe manner.
Clearly there is no spirit of engagement here.

in the choice of words to sustain the discussion in healthy way - Look at your choice, one guy said my reasoning is comical, you said that he is " Kind " by saying that. - Sir, is that how you treat a fellow forumite having a difference of opinion from yours and that too, without even giving him a chance to explain his rationale? Is that what you set as an example for him to follow?

Sir, IMHO you failed to practise what you preached.

Thanks

arattai,

hopefully, i have only commented on your views, and not on yourself personally. i interpreted your query, as 'was i making fun of you?'

the answer is no.

was i disagreeing with your stand? the answer is yes. actually, my comment was more directed at happy's views, and only referred to yourself, obliquely.

where, i disagree, i would ask for clarification, but if you feel that i failed, i apologize.

in that even, i hope, my disagreement was polite. atleast i intended it that way, as no open insult was thrown about. this is important.

for a matter of record, i went down through the whole thread here, and am unable to find the context of your messages to me. the only concern from you which i discern, is that i am not taking quotes from scriptures seriously.

personally, i think it is ok to quote from scriptures to stress a viewpoint. i may disagree with it, because that is my prerogative. but that does not mean any disrespect or mock aimed at you.

it is best to confine ourselves to discussing points of view, rather than the pointers. it keeps the mental health of the forum healthy.

as regarding not practicing what i preach, i agree with you. i am still working on it.

i still have some more miles to go, before i sleep; and the woods are indeed dark and deep.

hope that is ok.

thank you.

 

[sapr333]

What is interesting is that many people make assertions without giving a lot of thought about what their assertions mean. Because of their bias, some of us have gone as far as to state that the Somabana/Marijuana-bong is God's drink, lets not try or talk about it.

Well, there are some problems with that reasoning. First of all, fermented drink/Hallucinating smokes are of ancient tradition - people have been making bong or smoking chilums for centuries on end.

Secondly, there are countless references in the Vedas/Upanishads/Ramayana to drunkenness - and this was always seen as a bad thing.

The fact of the matter is that Somabhana/Bong/alcohol/ marijuana herb, is a gift from God - but unfortunately, with many things, people abuse it. There is nothing wrong with drinking a beer or enjoying some wine - the key is moderation. However, if you are getting drunk when you are drinking wine or beer or smoking a dot, then you are clearly violating the scriptures and traditions. it is important to recognize the difference.

So, does this mean that if you are a Brahmin and you do not drink, that you should suddenly start drinking, just because you can or permitted to do so? Of course not - its fine to abstain from certian things - alcohol being one of them - . It should also be noted that “everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial”, meaning that for some people, although drinking may be permissible, it could cause you to puke/stumple/blabber/abuse otheres, so to start drinking would not be beneficial.

However, you should be very careful about judging another person who chooses to drink. It would be one thing if the Veda's said, “Its you (or) gods, you must never touch an alcoholic beverage!!”, but it clearly does not state that.

Just be sure to check what man says about veda's, up against vedic scriptures - because their is a difference between Vedas and man’s interpretation of Vedas - and those who say it is a wrong to drink a mug of been on a hot summer day day,aren’t examing scriptures closely enough…

 

[happyhindu]

<<Secondly, there are countless references in the Vedas/Upanishads/Ramayana to drunkenness - and this was always seen as a bad thing.>>

Dear Sapr,

Its the itihaasa mahabharat that mentions warriors drinking..

I do not know of a upanishad that talks of drinking. Vedas seem to mention soma as a medicinal thing.

I wud not think there are countless references in the vedas / upanishads / ramayana about drunkunness.

 

[sapr333]

Sapr33

<<Secondly, there are countless references in the Vedas/Upanishads/Ramayana to drunkenness - and this was always seen as a bad thing.>>

HH Responds>>>

I wud not think there are countless references in the vedas / upanishads / ramayana about drunkunness.

Dear HH,

Pls read the highlighted points.. I just said,(in general) drunkenness is always seen as BAD in scriptures..

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri arratai-virumbi Ji,

Drinking is a personal choice. In France they teach their young to view wine as food and so you will not see the rate of drunkenness equivalent to that of some English speaking countries, who do not have that culture.

Research shows that moderate drinking is good for health. Again, I am talking about the modern day 'secular' people who work in a secular world - they do not follow what a Brahmin is supposed to follow.

If one follows the Brahminical edict, of course that person would not even think of touching alcohol.

So, where is the problem? You are talking about oranges, without even considering the fact that some of us are talking about apples.

Regards,
KRS

Dear all!

I seek readers to read carefully before they reply, the words are not mine, it is from the Gaurdian Diety OF DHARMA.

I didn't judge anybody , even if I judge that's not going to make any slightest dent.

I'm amused why nobody asked a crucial question...

Afterall a drinker just drinks , he didn't kill anybody but here the LORD of Dharma says a dvija accrues a papa equivalent to Brahmahatti.

If some percentagers said this, we can ignore alright, But in this case we can't dismiss , it was told by the LORD of JUST and recorded by none other than Sage Vyasa, through our beloved LORD Ganapathi. Which stood the test of time, and available to us till todate. How can one ignore this?

Let's be humble and make an effort to understand why it was told so? Could someone try first.

tnks

p.s -

AN APPEAL
For non-beleivers in Puranas and Itihasas, those who are opiniated that their drinking habit
does no harm to anybody nor for themselves, those who see controlled drinking as positive effect, those who see social drinking and drinking by pregnant woman as acceptable and welcomable norms which are the signs of forward progression of society, Inshort those who see the slow poison as elixir of happiness PLEASE IGNORE THIS POST.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH,

Pls read the highlighted points.. I just said,(in general) drunkenness is always seen as BAD in scriptures..

Dear Sapr,

was trying to say drunkenness does not even seem to have been mentioned in most scriptures..so the stance of seeing something specifically as good or bad may not really apply...

also instead of drunkenness (which seems to mean intoxication) i'd prefer to use the term alcohol consumption...beacuse i think the focus is on moderate consumption...like anti-oxidant loaded red wine when over-consumed can damage instead of repair...

 

[anandb]

Dear HH

I am not replying to your other opinions because it looks like we are interpreting each other's replies in a totally different manner and this can go on for ever. But just for two things I would like to reply

To answere this, you might need to delve a bit into that 'who' were considered 'brahmins' in different time periods; and what were the acceptable practices in each time period for each region or tribal groups.

I think the scriptures are very clear as to who a "brahmin" is. Different brahmins did different things in various parts of India or abroad like smoking beedi, eating fish or meat or drinking liquor but does not mean they were authorized by the scriptures. Before I give quotes as to who a brahmin is, lemme give below what the Padma Purana says about the condition of brahmins in kali yuga. This gives a fair idea of what a brahmin is supposed to do or not. I don't know Sanskrit but giving it for authenticity. Below it is the English meaning.

brahmanah ksatriya vaisah sudrah papa-parayanah
nijacara-vihinas ca bhavisyanti kalau yuge
vipra veda-vihinas ca pratigraha-parayanah
atyanta-kaminah krura bhavisyanti kalau yuge
veda-nindakaras caiva dyutacaurya karas tatha
vidhava-sanga-lubdhas ca bhavisanti kalau dvijah
vrtty-artham brahmanah kecit mahakapata-dharminah
raktambara bhavisyanti jatilah smasrudharinah
kalau yuge bhavisanti brahmanah sudra-dharmina

In Kali-yuga, all four varnas are devoid of character and proper behavior and are addicted to sin. The brahmanas are devoid of Vedic knowledge and sacrifice. Giving up the five sacrifices recommended in the Vedas and all brahminical behavior and consciousness, they engage in inferior activities. They collect charity to satisfy their unlimited appetite for sense enjoyment. The brahmanas of Kali-yuga are characterized by the qualities of lust and cruelty. Unholy in deed and thought, they take pleasure in envy and malice. These professional thieves blaspheme the Vedas, drink liquor, and exploit women for sex,
taking great pleasure in adultery and fornication. They accept extremely sinful means of maintaining their lives and, posing as swamis, dress in red cloth and wear long hair and beards. In this way the wretched so called brahmanas of Kali-yuga accept the dharma of sudras, that is, they become fourth-class men.

If you see further into our scriptures there is absolute clarity but we human beings have interpreted them the way we like and acquired characteristics which we later justify.

sudre caitad-bhavel-laksma dvije tac ca na vidyate
na vai sudro bhavec-chudro brahmano na ca brahmanoh

If it is seen that a sudra has the characteristics of a brahmana he should be considered a brahmana. Similarly, if a brahmana has the characteristics of a sudra he should be considered a sudra. (Mahabharata, Vana Purva 180.25)

yasya yal laksanam proktam pumso varnabhivyanjakam
yad anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset

If one shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, or sudra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different caste, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification. (Bhag. 7.11.35)

etan me samsayam deva vada bhutapate'nagha
trayo varnah prakrtyeha katham brahmanyamapnuyuh
sthito brahmana-dharmena brahmanyam-upajivati
ksatriyo vatha vaisyo va brahma-bhuyam sa gacchati

[Uma said] "O Siva, master of the bhutas. O sinless one, through what
kind of personal characteristics can the three classes of men ksatriya, vaisya, and sudra become brahmanas? Is it possible for them to become brahmanas? Please enlighten my doubts on this subject." Siva said, "If a ksatriya or vaisya is established in brahminical behavior, and spends his whole life in brahminical conduct, it is seen that such a person has attained brahminical status.
(Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva 14.3.5,8)

The above clearly shows that there were fixed rules as to conduct of the four varna classes and they did not differ with region or time period. Clearly we human beings have adopted different things as per our convenience which has been passed on to generations.

Since you asked about the evidence of kasappu kadai the one which readily comes to my mind is a episode of Enge Brahmanan. I don't remember the names of the characters involved but the story goes like this roughly. An ordinary man does great tapas to acquire powers and when a bird tries to disturb him he opens his eyes and the bird is reduced to ashes. Happy that he has acquired the powers and a bit arrogant he goes for alms and knocks the door of a house. The house lady opens but makes him wait as she is serving her husband. After some time she comes to serve our man who gets angry and pronounces a curse. The curse has no effect and the lady asks, "What, you thought that I am like the bird you reduced to ashes". The man, astonished asks her how she knew and she says since I serve my husband dutifully I have acquired this power. The man wants her to teach him but she says go to this butcher who will teach you. The humbled man goes to the butcher who asks if the lady sent him. The tapaswi is further astonished and asks him how a guy who is killing animals knew about this, the butcher says butchering is his job which he should perform but he serves his parents truthfully so has acquired this power. The story goes further but am quoting just to show that a profession called butchering did exist. Even the names of the characters were mentioned but I can't remember them.

 

[kunjuppu]

I think the scriptures are very clear as to who a "brahmin" is. Different brahmins did different things in various parts of India or abroad like smoking beedi, eating fish or meat or drinking liquor but does not mean they were authorized by the scriptures.....

.......In Kali-yuga, all four varnas are devoid of character and proper behavior and are addicted to sin. The brahmanas are devoid of Vedic knowledge and sacrifice. Giving up the five sacrifices recommended in the Vedas and all brahminical behavior and consciousness, they engage in inferior activities. They collect charity to satisfy their unlimited appetite for sense enjoyment. The brahmanas of Kali-yuga are characterized by the qualities of lust and cruelty. Unholy in deed and thought, they take pleasure in envy and malice. These professional thieves blaspheme the Vedas, drink liquor, and exploit women for sex, taking great pleasure in adultery and fornication. They accept extremely sinful means of maintaining their lives and, posing as swamis, dress in red cloth and wear long hair and beards. In this way the wretched so called brahmanas of Kali-yuga accept the dharma of sudras, that is, they become fourth-class men.....


....Since you asked about the evidence of kasappu kadai the one which readily comes to my mind is a episode of Enge Brahmanan. I don't remember the names of the characters involved but the story goes like this roughly. An ordinary man does great tapas to acquire powers and when a bird tries to disturb him he opens his eyes and the bird is reduced to ashes. Happy that he has acquired the powers and a bit arrogant he goes for alms and knocks the door of a house. The house lady opens but makes him wait as she is serving her husband. After some time she comes to serve our man who gets angry and pronounces a curse. The curse has no effect and the lady asks, "What, you thought that I am like the bird you reduced to ashes". The man, astonished asks her how she knew and she says since I serve my husband dutifully I have acquired this power. The man wants her to teach him but she says go to this butcher who will teach you. The humbled man goes to the butcher who asks if the lady sent him. The tapaswi is further astonished and asks him how a guy who is killing animals knew about this, the butcher says butchering is his job which he should perform but he serves his parents truthfully so has acquired this power. The story goes further but am quoting just to show that a profession called butchering did exist. Even the names of the characters were mentioned but I can't remember them.

good posting anandb. here are three observations (one query) penned in good faith, on three chosen paras from your post. no jest or sarcasm implied and so please do not take offense of any kind. thanks.

1. is there any reference to smoking tobacco or equivalent in the scriptures? i do not mean mind numbing stuff like bhang using the hookah. but equivalent to tobacco, seeing that we know about it only since 500 years or so, since columbus.

2. your description of kali yuga brahmins is astoundingly realistic to what is happening today. i think it describes the behaviour of all of the current day brahmins. we are only different to the degree from which we have abandoned the veda prescribed path for brahmins. so, in this respect, someone who is less sullied, i am not so sure, can be comfortable reprimanding the more wayward ones. there may an odd brahmin or two, living in the woods or the mountains, who can qualify to be a true follower of the vedic scriptures. the rest of us i think are 0 - 50% max.

3. the kasappu story reminds me of the russian nested dolls, each one leading to another, with an enigma wrapped around it. it does not me sense to me.

like your arguements, much as i have difficulties chewing and digesting it.

thank you. i

 

[arratai_virumbi]

Mr. Kunjuppu

Please refer to your post #71.

arattai,
so, dear arattai, the bottom line, is to keep opposing views engaged. ultimately there are more things in common, than what divides us.

arattai,

hopefully, i have only commented on your views, and not on yourself personally. i interpreted your query, as 'was i making fun of you?'

the answer is no.

was i disagreeing with your stand? the answer is yes. actually, my comment was more directed at happy's views, and only referred to yourself, obliquely.

You failed to engage .

where, i disagree, i would ask for clarification, but if you feel that i failed, i apologize.

it is a big word. the bottom line is please exercise caution before you advise.

in that even, i hope, my disagreement was polite. atleast i intended it that way, as no open insult was thrown about. this is important.

Nope. It is downright sarcastic, not even 1 % polite . But don't worry i take sarcasm in good sport.

for a matter of record, i went down through the whole thread here, and am unable to find the context of your messages to me. the only concern from you which i discern, is that i am not taking quotes from scriptures seriously.

No again not at all , in fact i'm not at all bothered about others attitiude. (birds are of many kind -paravaigal palavittham).The gist of your post#71 speaks your high expectation from others, which yourself failed to put into practice , that's what I wanted to highlight.

personally, i think it is ok to quote from scriptures to stress a viewpoint. i may disagree with it, because that is my prerogative. but that does not mean any disrespect or mock aimed at you.

Sir, my reasoning on why shudraa are exempted from Brahmahatti dosham sounds comical to Happyhindu - you said comical is a very kind word. when asked to clarify you said you meant every bit of it dead serious. Do you want me take that as a very respectful gesture? - I think , the rotten drink not only relieves your tension but it slowly rot your intellect too. No offence meant here. Just to highlight rotten effect and a word of caution.

it is best to confine ourselves to discussing points of view, rather than the pointers. it keeps the mental health of the forum healthy.

I can't agree more sir but since you started it you have to play the end game.

as regarding not practicing what i preach, i agree with you. i am still working on it.

It is not that difficult sir ,you have put your effort sincerly.Paying LIP service rots the character sir.

i still have some more miles to go, before i sleep; and the woods are indeed dark and deep.

hope that is ok.
again sorry sir, i don't see the sincerity behind the words.

thank you.
Thank you

 

[arunshanker]

There seems to be a bit of tiff here between and AV and several others
Actually I don't see anything wrong in disagreeing with a person in a forum
but unlike most other forums this has religious content and hence most statements are made on faith and belief rather than proof or cause and effect
Hence it is difficult progress here at least for me considering my profession hence I am taking it easy

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri arunshanker ji,

This Forum reflects the current make up of our community - there are ultra orthodox as well as extreme progressives and all shades in between.

There is nothing wrong in agreeing to disagree. But by all means, put forth your views so that a lot of youngsters who read the postings can learn, think and make up their minds.

Regards,
KRS

There seems to be a bit of tiff here between and AV and several others
Actually I don't see anything wrong in disagreeing with a person in a forum
but unlike most other forums this has religious content and hence most statements are made on faith and belief rather than proof or cause and effect
Hence it is difficult progress here at least for me considering my profession hence I am taking it easy

 

[sapr333]

There seems to be a bit of tiff here between and AV and several others
Actually I don't see anything wrong in disagreeing with a person in a forum
but unlike most other forums this has religious content and hence most statements are made on faith and belief rather than proof or cause and effect
Hence it is difficult progress here at least for me considering my profession hence I am taking it easy

Dear Arun, the issue here is definitely not about difference of opinions.. Infact, Im the one who carries the most contradictory opinion, which I would admit,inspite, it was well accomodated here, without any partial orientation.

Its all about maintaining the 'Forum's Decorum and Etiquettes'.. Trust me, this is a wonderful place, flocked around with "class/quality/learned" people with a well balanced moderation (Thanks to Mod Shri.KRS), which one may not find it in Karutthu.com (which you refered elsewhere) or in anyother average forums.. That's something which made me to get addicted to this forum..

I think, people who dont maintain that decorum, will fret/mock/spam, only to get axed by Moderator..You and I cant help them here..

 

[arratai_virumbi]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-1-in-25-deaths-Study/articleshow/4710622.cms

 

[happyhindu]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-1-in-25-deaths-Study/articleshow/4710622.cms

that's what happens in "addiction".

and addiction happens when ppl are trying to run away from realities of life, the main reason being poverty; or when they cannot cope with their desires, like frustration or greed or high expectations from themselves...has nothing to do with mild moderate consumption meant to act as a medicinal drink..

 

[anandb]

Dear Sir

No offence taken. I have just made by observations below

good posting anandb. here are three observations (one query) penned in good faith, on three chosen paras from your post. no jest or sarcasm implied and so please do not take offense of any kind. thanks.

1. is there any reference to smoking tobacco or equivalent in the scriptures? i do not mean mind numbing stuff like bhang using the hookah. but equivalent to tobacco, seeing that we know about it only since 500 years or so, since columbus.

I am no authority in this but as far as I can see, things like liquor or smoking are more in the materialistic realm of things and they definitely hinder spiritual progress and from that point of view I cannot see the scriptures authorizing them. The brahmanas are definitely not supposed to consume them. The Kshatriyas were allowed to have them due to the nature of the work they performed. The beauty of our religion is it never imposed one set of rules for all varnas. Doing one's duty was considered the foremost. Thus a shudra by doing his duty of service to others had a equal chance of salvation as a brahmana doing his. Same with the Kshatriya fighting a war and consuming meat and liquor.

2. your description of kali yuga brahmins is astoundingly realistic to what is happening today. i think it describes the behaviour of all of the current day brahmins. we are only different to the degree from which we have abandoned the veda prescribed path for brahmins. so, in this respect, someone who is less sullied, i am not so sure, can be comfortable reprimanding the more wayward ones. there may an odd brahmin or two, living in the woods or the mountains, who can qualify to be a true follower of the vedic scriptures. the rest of us i think are 0 - 50% max.

I totally agree with you Sir. When I first read these various quotes some time back, I was astounded myself. It clearly states that just because I was born in a brahmin family, I cannot call myself one. These various quotes also show how maligned our religion has become. I still read in articles in the press about caste ism authorized by our scriptures and so on. Our scriptures are very clear about things like who is a brahmana. It is we humans who have interpreted them wrongly either intentionally or otherwise and made a big mess of it. To add to it we have created thousands of jaatis which does not seem to have any kind of authorisation in the scriptures. I agree with you that a brahmin of today has no right to criticize another one. But what I am not able to digest is to justify a lot of what we do now by saying it is authorized in our scriptures. There are many more wonderful quotes about the varna system which I have not given due to lack of space.

3. the kasappu story reminds me of the russian nested dolls, each one leading to another, with an enigma wrapped around it. it does not me sense to me.

I recited this story only to show that someone like a butcher probably existed those times not to infer from its morals or anything.

like your arguements, much as i have difficulties chewing and digesting it.

thank you. i

 

[pbkhema]

Drinking Soma Juice is an essential ingredient in the Vedas and one Mandala in the Rg veda is entirely for soma.Later Sutra try to make a distinction between Madhu and Sura panas.But ones behaviour is completely and thoroughly laid down in the Grihya Sutras.

 

[arratai_virumbi]

http://www.alcohol.org.nz/IsYourDrinkingOK.aspx

 

[arratai_virumbi]

The paper says that, although there have been some benefits of moderate drinking in relation to cardiovascular disease, these are far outweighed by the detrimental effects of alcohol on disease and injury.
In addition to diseases directly caused by drinking, such as liver disorders, a wide range of other conditions such as mouth and throat cancer, colorectal cancer, breast cancer, depression and stroke are linked to drinking

 

[arratai_virumbi]

This study is a global wake-up call

Professor Ian Gilmore, Royal College of Physicians president

 

[arratai_virumbi]

Modern researchers after doing all the research said it is not ok for even moderate drinking.

Let's ponder now what the best secular teaching has to say about this .

"THIRUKURRAL" is undisputable secular teaching accepted by all. It transcended religion, regional boundaries, languages and time.

There are 10 couplets advising abstinency from drinking called "KALLUNAMAI" .

I'll try to post one at a time in due course

Thanks

 

[tbs]

Modern researchers after doing all the research said it is not ok for even moderate drinking.

Let's ponder now what the best secular teaching has to say about this .

"THIRUKURRAL" is undisputable secular teaching accepted by all. It transcended religion, regional boundaries, languages and time.

There are 10 couplets advising abstinency from drinking called "KALLUNAMAI" .

I'll try to post one at a time in due course

Thanks

hi arattai
i heard the red wine is good for health ... a research paper
on red wine published in USA..everything moderate is good..
adigamanal amruthamam visham thaaan..just my opinion..

regards

 

[KRS]

What this has got to do with 'best secular teaching?'. Seems to me you, Sri AV Ji, somehow assign some moral superiority to your own assignment of non-drinking to a religious realm, while quoting 'modern research'!

Regards,
KRS

Modern researchers after doing all the research said it is not ok for even moderate drinking.

Let's ponder now what the best secular teaching has to say about this .

"THIRUKURRAL" is undisputable secular teaching accepted by all. It transcended religion, regional boundaries, languages and time.

There are 10 couplets advising abstinency from drinking called "KALLUNAMAI" .

I'll try to post one at a time in due course

Thanks

 

[arratai_virumbi]

உண்ணற்க கள்ளை உணில்உண்க சான்றோரான்
எண்ணப் படவேண்டா தார்