Is reconciliation possible

[ShivKC]

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<removed>
Absolutely no need for provocation.

 

[Nara]

At 2:52 AM my time:

Sangom,

This is between Nara and me.

At 4:16 AM my time:

A cat closed its eye and thought the world has come to an end.

[..]

only in the minds of people who can not unload the prejudices accumulated for long, who are reeling under its weight 24x7, that all such negative thoughts keep popping up wherever they are-whether in home, office,temple or in the hospital bed. Poor things.

That is one hour and 24 minutes, first to admonish in harsh tone asking him not to interfere in a matter between him and "Nara", and then to do exactly what he admonished Sangom sir about, interfere in a matter between Happy and me.

Nice ....

 

[sangom]

At 2:52 AM my time:



At 4:16 AM my time:

That is one hour and 24 minutes, first to admonish in harsh tone asking him not to interfere in a matter between him and "Nara", and then to do exactly what he admonished Sangom sir about, interfere in a matter between Happy and me.

Nice ....

மாமியார் உடைத்தால்...

 

[suraju06]

Am wondering why did the tradition of collecting such rapturous hymns die out in India -- did people stop composing -- or did the varna-jati system become so rigid that uppercastes stopped listening to or stopped collecting such hymns?

மாமியார் உடைத்தால்...

1)I consider I can represent the so called upper castes here and so have a locus standi in replying. That reply was not addressed to any one in particular. It was addressed to the forum.

2)மாமியார் உடைத்தாலும் மாமனார் உடைத்தாலும் மருமகள் உடைத்தாலும் உடைவது மண் குடம் தான். இங்கே தூற்றப்படுவது அந்தணர்கள் தான். அந்தணர்கள் மட்டுமே .

And goodbye everybody.

 

[happyhindu]

1)I consider I can represent the so called upper castes here and so have a locus standi in replying. That reply was not addressed to any one in particular. It was addressed to the forum.

It was addressed to Nara sir very clearly - http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7161-reconciliation-possible-20.html#post99137

 

[ShivKC]

1).

2)மாமியார் உடைத்தாலும் மாமனார் உடைத்தாலும் மருமகள் உடைத்தாலும் உடைவது மண் குடம் தான். இங்கே தூற்றப்படுவது அந்தணர்கள் தான். அந்தணர்கள் மட்டுமே .

And goodbye everybody.

no words in the lexicon can better explain. you said it

 

[suraju06]

It was addressed to Nara sir very clearly - Is reconciliation possible

I was referring to my reply and not this post referred to here.

 

[sarang]

Why reconciliation? Tambrams are visible, more vocal, better organized and care little what others, especially brahmin bashers (it is true in other states as well) say or think. DK has lost its venom and sting, MK has lost all teeth, and ill wishers have gone into the grave. The CM is keen to protect and nourish temple culture, does not hide her intent to start activities in auspicious muhurthas, and all her party members and ministers are pro religion, pro religious practices and definitely not anti brahmin.

New temples built by all communities have no objection to employing brahmin priests.

Barring a few DK members, members of most communities - kallars, mukkulathores, chettiars, pillais and many more - have a healthy, mutual respect for brahmins. Only the power hungry politicians and EVRists play this anti brahmin sentiment for personal/political gains.

Majority of tamils of all castes respect brahmins. More brahmins are coming out of fear complexes of the thirties to sixties. Brahmins all over india are affected by reservation. Extension of reservation to muslims and christians will hurt tamil sc/st/obc.

Modi's words - I have done nothing for minorities; I work for all gujaratis - must be displayed everywhere.

No reconciliation is necessary; instead let everyone mind his/her own business.

 

[Nara]

...Am wondering why did the tradition of collecting such rapturous hymns die out in India -- did people stop composing -- or did the varna-jati system become so rigid that uppercastes stopped listening to or stopped collecting such hymns?

Happy, the hagiographical account of SV Acharyas does not indicate a tradition of gathering of old poetry that slowly or suddenly stopped. It was just a one time deal -- Sriman Nathamunigal intrigued by ten verses he heard made it his life's calling to collect these pasurams as much as he could. Whether there were more that he didn't get to, hard to say.

By the time of Azhvars, hierarchical and supremacist Varna system was definitely part of the social milieu in Tamil country. This can be seen from the phrases they use, like சாதி அந்தணர் (sAthi anthaNar), பலசதுப்பேதிமார் (pala sathuppEthimAr), நாலிலும் கீழ் இழிந்த சண்டாள சண்டாளன் (nAlilum kIz izintha saNdALa saNdAlar). Interestingly, whenever they made reference to varna system, they urged to give up brahmin haughtiness and to treat "low-caste" with respect. This comes across loud and clear.

Cheers!

 

[Govinda]

This can be seen from the phrases they use, like சாதி அந்தணர் (sAthi anthaNar), பலசதுப்பேதிமார் (pala sathuppEthimAr), நாலிலும் கீழ் இழிந்த சண்டாள சண்டாளன் (nAlilum kIz izintha saNdALa saNdAlar). Interestingly, whenever they made reference to varna system, they urged to give up brahmin haughtiness and to treat "low-caste" with respect. This comes across loud and clear.

Of course, Thondaradi-podialwar himself was a Brahmin, who quoted the above. Ramanuja's acharyas were NBs and left for sanyAsa after his wife seem to disregard them. Most of the Srivaishnavas follow such understanding. Lot of NBs e.g: Sri Ramanuja Matham - Home were given Srivaishnava samkAras like samAsrayanam and prapatti (surrender) by our Brahmin AcharyAs, as instructed by Sri RamAnuja. But doing one's responsible duties in the spirit of service to the Lord, don't denote any superiority, unless some take it a pride and look down upon others. In the same way, I can take prasAdam offered by a NB devotee, I should try to avoid food that was not or cannot be offered to the deity by a B or NB.

This link would be a interesting read ( may use for more bashing!) if you are not pre-judiced. The ontological position of devotees than BrAhmanA, but seems polemic in nature.

 

[sarang]

As you have rightly said one becomes a brahmin either by birth (more common) or by initiation.

Mr. Venkat Saminathan's review of the book 'Vettum puli by Tamilmagan' makes an interesting reading.

தமிழà¯￾ஹிநà¯￾தà¯￾ » வெடà¯￾டà¯￾பà¯￾பà¯￾லி: திராவிட இயகà¯￾க அரசியலà¯￾ சாரà¯￾நà¯￾த à®®à¯￾தலà¯￾ இலகà¯￾கியபà¯￾ பதிவà¯￾

one quote:

“தன்னைப் பழி வாங்க பார்ப்பனர் செய்த சதி போல இருந்தது அவனுக்கு மனைவி வாய்த்தது.” பிரச்சினை எதுவாக இருந்தாலும் பாப்பானைத் திட்டினால் பிரசினை தீர்ந்துவிடுவதாகத் தோன்றுகிறது."

Of course, Thondaradi-podialwar himself was a Brahmin, who quoted the above. Ramanuja's acharyas were NBs and left for sanyAsa after his wife seem to disregard them. Most of the Srivaishnavas follow such understanding. Lot of NBs e.g: Sri Ramanuja Matham - Home were given Srivaishnava samkAras like samAsrayanam and prapatti (surrender) by our Brahmin AcharyAs, as instructed by Sri RamAnuja. But doing one's responsible duties in the spirit of service to the Lord, don't denote any superiority, unless some take it a pride and look down upon others. In the same way, I can take prasAdam offered by a NB devotee, I should try to avoid food that was not or cannot be offered to the deity by a B or NB.

This link would be a interesting read ( may use for more bashing!) if you are not pre-judiced. The ontological position of devotees than BrAhmanA, but seems polemic in nature.

 

[happyhindu]

Happy, the hagiographical account of SV Acharyas does not indicate a tradition of gathering of old poetry that slowly or suddenly stopped. It was just a one time deal -- Sriman Nathamunigal intrigued by ten verses he heard made it his life's calling to collect these pasurams as much as he could. Whether there were more that he didn't get to, hard to say.

By the time of Azhvars, hierarchical and supremacist Varna system was definitely part of the social milieu in Tamil country. This can be seen from the phrases they use, like சாதி அந்தணர் (sAthi anthaNar), பலசதுப்பேதிமார் (pala sathuppEthimAr), நாலிலும் கீழ் இழிந்த சண்டாள சண்டாளன் (nAlilum kIz izintha saNdALa saNdAlar). Interestingly, whenever they made reference to varna system, they urged to give up brahmin haughtiness and to treat "low-caste" with respect. This comes across loud and clear.

Cheers!

Dear Sir,

Were the Divya prabandhams composed between 5th century CE to about 8th century CE ?? If yes, it would make sense that the varna system was already in place by this time (considering that vedic brahmins came into tamilakam from 100 AD to 700 AD).

Just curious sir --
1) are there pasurams which use the word brahmana (instead of anthanar) ?
2) do pasurams urging brahmin haughtiness to be given up, use the term anthanar or brahmana?
3) around which time period do we find pasurams getting very vocal and loud about castes and treating low-castes with respect?

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Of course, Thondaradi-podialwar himself was a Brahmin, who quoted the above. Ramanuja's acharyas were NBs and left for sanyAsa after his wife seem to disregard them. Most of the Srivaishnavas follow such understanding. Lot of NBs e.g: Sri Ramanuja Matham - Home were given Srivaishnava samkAras like samAsrayanam and prapatti (surrender) by our Brahmin AcharyAs, as instructed by Sri RamAnuja. But doing one's responsible duties in the spirit of service to the Lord, don't denote any superiority, unless some take it a pride and look down upon others. In the same way, I can take prasAdam offered by a NB devotee, I should try to avoid food that was not or cannot be offered to the deity by a B or NB.

This link would be a interesting read ( may use for more bashing!) if you are not pre-judiced. The ontological position of devotees than BrAhmanA, but seems polemic in nature.

As you have rightly said one becomes a brahmin either by birth (more common) or by initiation.

Mr. Venkat Saminathan's review of the book 'Vettum puli by Tamilmagan' makes an interesting reading.

தமிழà¯￾ஹிநà¯￾தà¯￾ » வெடà¯￾டà¯￾பà¯￾பà¯￾லி: திராவிட இயகà¯￾க அரசியலà¯￾ சாரà¯￾நà¯￾த à®®à¯￾தலà¯￾ இலகà¯￾கியபà¯￾ பதிவà¯￾

one quote:

“தன்னைப் பழி வாங்க பார்ப்பனர் செய்த சதி போல இருந்தது அவனுக்கு மனைவி வாய்த்தது.” பிரச்சினை எதுவாக இருந்தாலும் பாப்பானைத் திட்டினால் பிரசினை தீர்ந்துவிடுவதாகத் தோன்றுகிறது."

Sarang and Govinda,

What you both are talking about is ONLY about Vaishnava theology. Not just in Gaudiya Vaishnavism of ISKCON, generally in SV theology also there is more empasis on Guru parampara, bhakti to guru, following guru's words, and very little role for smrithis (Nara sir may correct me if am wrong in this). This is the reason why Vaishnavism tends to be popular.

However, the Vaishnava approach is unacceptable to the Smarthas. To Smarthas, the Smrithis are ever applicable with rigid birth based varnas.

Unfortuantely, since every hindu kingdom followed smrithis, since Adi Shankara established 4 mutts, since shastris testified varnas in courts, hence the smarthas were and have remained the "orthodox" face of hinduism.

The Vaishnavas unfortunately did not play an active role in removing Smrithi based social laws (though they could have).

The Vaishnavas could have influenced the outcome of modern india also IF they had taken a more social role after heeding to the inclusive nature espoused by the alvar pasurams.

Regards.

 

[sarang]

Everyone is free to follow a subset of smruthis as defined by their acharyas and gurus and family traditions. Just harping on smruthi says this, says that is not going to get BBs anywhere. They are like EVRists who are just stuck on lost grooves, reminiscing childhood days, gloating over non essentials.

It was the birthright and duty of brahmins to preserve vedas in a oral tradition and they have done it. Apart from vedas, many brahmins learnt and taught other subjects - vedangas, agamas, and secular subjects. Today also brahmins are preserving the oral - vedic traditions sans support of 'kings and the rich'. In addition to the saiva vaishnavite muts, others (e.g. art of living) are also valuable supporters in preserving vedic learning.

When will the BBs stop their inane arguments of achara practices (toilet mentality)? presen day vaidikas have learnt to adopt or modify practices with the approval and blessings of their acharyas. Most important job of brahmins is preservation and propagation of vedas and they are good at it.
The modern BB brahmin-dravidanists can only shout to their heart's content; they will eventually fade away.

 

[sangom]

Sarang and Govinda,

What you both are talking about is ONLY about Vaishnava theology. Not just in Gaudiya Vaishnavism of ISKCON, generally in SV theology also there is more empasis on Guru parampara, bhakti to guru, following guru's words, and very little role for smrithis (Nara sir may correct me if am wrong in this). This is the reason why Vaishnavism tends to be popular.

However, the Vaishnava approach is unacceptable to the Smarthas. To Smarthas, the Smrithis are ever applicable with rigid birth based varnas.

Unfortuantely, since every hindu kingdom followed smrithis, since Adi Shankara established 4 mutts, since shastris testified varnas in courts, hence the smarthas were and have remained the "orthodox" face of hinduism.

The Vaishnavas unfortunately did not play an active role in removing Smrithi based social laws (though they could have).

The Vaishnavas could have influenced the outcome of modern india also IF they had taken a more social role after heeding to the inclusive nature espoused by the alvar pasurams.

Regards.

Smt. HappyHindu,

The Svs also have some smriti or the other to be followed. They also have their "abhivaadayE" introduction system i suppose. So, as I tried to explain in some other context, when one Group said only Vishnu is the Supreme Reality and rejected Siva-rudra, that group came to be tagged as "Vaishnava" and since in TN there was already saiva siddhanta and saivas, the others started calling themselves "smartas".

 

[happyhindu]

Everyone is free to follow a subset of smruthis as defined by their acharyas and gurus and family traditions. Just harping on smruthi says this, says that is not going to get BBs anywhere. They are like EVRists who are just stuck on lost grooves, reminiscing childhood days, gloating over non essentials.

It was the birthright and duty of brahmins to preserve vedas in a oral tradition and they have done it. Apart from vedas, many brahmins learnt and taught other subjects - vedangas, agamas, and secular subjects. Today also brahmins are preserving the oral - vedic traditions sans support of 'kings and the rich'. In addition to the saiva vaishnavite muts, others (e.g. art of living) are also valuable supporters in preserving vedic learning.

When will the BBs stop their inane arguments of achara practices (toilet mentality)? presen day vaidikas have learnt to adopt or modify practices with the approval and blessings of their acharyas. Most important job of brahmins is preservation and propagation of vedas and they are good at it.
The modern BB brahmin-dravidanists can only shout to their heart's content; they will eventually fade away.

Just harping that 'brahmins' will continue to follow smrithis is not going to get brahmin supremists anywhere.

As for preserving vedas, Vedapatshalas receive aid from the indian government or from the rich currently in democratic india. The exclusivist mentality is not gonna help. If not for the NBs of the past, you guys wud not have been here today; and India wud have been a fully muslim country.

As regards agamas, saiva siddhanta, and other stuff no one needs brahmins to preserve those aspects of hinduism. Also, hindu practices will continue to exist irrepective of the existence of mutts and stuff.

Since you use the term "toilet mentality", wish to remind you of Sulabh and their toilet cleaners...

Continuing to gloat over past grandeur is not going to help....

 

[prasad1]

Wow, I never knew these details being discussed by scholars like HH, Sarong, and Sangom.

Brahmin's have superiority, must be a fantasy. "Continuing to gloat over past grandeur is not going to help...." from the post #216 sums it up.
After reading this post I think I am only 10% TB.:high5:

On a lesser note
We invited a senior respected member of our community, (happened to be an Iyyangar) to our house with other Tamil families. To our dismay, That couple left early before dinner without eating. I was informed by other friends that they do not eat in a non-vaisnava house. I did not confront the gentleman to get the story.

 

[sangom]

Wow, I never knew these details being discussed by scholars like HH, Sarong, and Sangom.

Brahmin's have superiority, must be a fantasy. "Continuing to gloat over past grandeur is not going to help...." from the post #216 sums it up.
After reading this post I think I am only 10% TB.:high5:

On a lesser note
We invited a senior respected member of our community, (happened to be an Iyyangar) to our house with other Tamil families. To our dismay, That couple left early before dinner without eating. I was informed by other friends that they do not eat in a non-vaisnava house. I did not confront the gentleman to get the story.

Shri Prasad,

Brahmins have preserved the oral tradition of the vedas, brahmins are superior as a class even today (not only past grandeur) and then, within that superior vedic tradition, "I am a Vaishnavan, so eating in a smaarta house is against aachaaram", etc., are all "archaeological relics" left over by a grand construct of a society in which the brahmanan was simply the Supreme Lord (bhoo sura or deva of the earth). Perhaps you personally did not have occasion to know or understand that such a social set-up existed, but it did, true.

Someone had posted a query as to how in the ancient days our people travelled the whole length and breadth of the country without a thought about the next meal. Brahmanas could do it because the grihasta brahmanas were required to feed at least one braahmana before he did his "parishechanam" during the daytime meals. There were braahmanas who eked out their living in this way; some very nominal cash also was forthcoming to him along with the free meals as "bhOjana dakshiNa".

I am not deprecating the old system nor doing any bashing of those forefathers (may be some of my own forefathers might have lived on such "free meals", who can say? But I am definitely sad about today's brahmins who just do some lip service to the brahmin way of life but vehemently claim that they are the preservers of the oral tradition of the vedas and so on.

 

[Nara]

Dear Sir,

Were the Divya prabandhams composed between 5th century CE to about 8th century CE ?? If yes, it would make sense that the varna system was already in place by this time (considering that vedic brahmins came into tamilakam from 100 AD to 700 AD).

Happy, Slightly later, 7th to 9th century CE is what is thought to be the most probable dates.

1) are there pasurams which use the word brahmana (instead of anthanar) ?

Well, the Tamilized word is used, yes, for example, in Varanam Ayiram, Andal uses the term "பார்ப்பனச் சிட்டர்கள்" (pArppana cittarkaL). As you can see, the word is used respectfully, not in a pejorative way.

2) do pasurams urging brahmin haughtiness to be given up, use the term anthanar or brahmana?

Thonjdaradippodi uses the phrase "சாதி அந்தணர்" (sAthi anthaNar) in verse #43 of Thirumalai when he admonishes the haughty Brahmins that if they treat devotees badly they will turn into pulaiya in an instant. Here, the Azhvar simply says "பழிப்பராகில்" (pazippar Akil) and does not mention whether the one getting treated badly is NB, but the commentator does not leave any doubt, here is what Swami Periyavacchan Pillai says:

"அவர்கள் ஜந்ம மாத்ரத்தையே புத்தி பண்ணித் தங்களைவிட குறைய நினைப்பராகில் குற்றம்"

(it is an offense to think other devotees as lower than themselves based only on their lower status by birth)

​

This is another example of early Acharyas opinion expressed in his own words -- not my words, no twisting, no misinterpretation -- is coolly ignored by even Thenkalais who are supposed to be little more progressive about caste matters.

I am not sure whether the word "pArppanar" is used in this context, I am not able to think of an instance off hand.

3) around which time period do we find pasurams getting very vocal and loud about castes and treating low-castes with respect?

The most direct and unflinching is Thondaradippodi (8th century), a little milder is Nammazhvar (9th century), Periyazhvar does it somewhat obliquely, but unmistakable (9th century).

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

... generally in SV theology also there is more empasis on Guru parampara, bhakti to guru, following guru's words, and very little role for smrithis ...

Happy, SV is different from Gaudia, they think of union of Radha and Krishna as the supreme, but SVs reject that. For SVs there Radha is probably no more than a gopika -- interestingly, Bhagavatham does not mention a gopika named Radha in Gokulam.

You are right about SV emphasis on acharyas and acharya lineage. The immediate acharya, the one who does Samasrayanam is considered as one who bestows your own life (spiritual I suppose) and called "என் உயிர் தந்து அளித்தவர்" (en uyir thanthu aLiththavar).

However, they do not reject any of the Smrithees either. On the contrary they hold them in very high esteem. Bhagavat Ramanuja quotes them in Sri Bhashya. For SVs Manu is like bitter medicine, hard to swallow, but good for health .

Now, as far as I can see, none of the Azhvars talk about smrithees at all. This makes me think SV as Azhvars saw and practiced was indeed free of smrithee injunctions, but were introduced and enforced by Vadama converts even by the time of Ramanuja.

The Vaishnavas could have influenced the outcome of modern india also IF they had taken a more social role after heeding to the inclusive nature espoused by the alvar pasurams.

Yes, I agree with this, instead, the Brahmins hijacked SV and made sure all the smrithee rules are applied with even more rigor, and that was really a very sad development.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Sangom sir,
Thanks for the post, you are absolutely right, both sides of my family has never lived in Tamil nadu. But this "pashum" for India, Tamil is still there.
From people i meet from Tamil Nadu TB are the dirt, can not get collage admission, or jobs, I suppose I am mistaken.

Tell me (even in PM) more about, keeping up with the traditions in the olden days. Like I said I am not even 10% brahmin compared to lot of people in this site. No body is feeding me any free meal either(LOL). I have difficulty in certain parts of the world just because of my food habits. How did they travel in the olden days, particularly ladies? Who cooked the food, how did they manage the language, what about accommodations?

I met a senior Brahmin lady from Chennai, she and her friends travel to all the thirth yatra. I was fascinated with their organization. 40 of them travel together. They been to Kailash, Kashi, Allahabad, etc. She told me they have a cook with them. It seemed like prying, and we were at a social event. I could not additional detail. I am not interested in traditions. I just want to see exotic places with their religious and historic significance, in reasonable comfort. On our trips we make it a point to see a place that we have not visited. We were in Coimbatore last time, and saw the Shiva temple, and other Temples. I want to make it clear we are tourists, with reverence, looking for something that we do not know.

Nara: Excuse my ignorance who are SV?

 

[subbudu1]

Happy, SV is different from Gaudia, they think of union of Radha and Krishna as the supreme, but SVs reject that. For SVs there Radha is probably no more than a gopika -- interestingly, Bhagavatham does not mention a gopika named Radha in Gokulam.

You are right about SV emphasis on acharyas and acharya lineage. The immediate acharya, the one who does Samasrayanam is considered as one who bestows your own life (spiritual I suppose) and called "என் உயிர் தந்து அளித்தவர்" (en uyir thanthu aLiththavar).

However, they do not reject any of the Smrithees either. On the contrary they hold them in very high esteem. Bhagavat Ramanuja quotes them in Sri Bhashya. For SVs Manu is like bitter medicine, hard to swallow, but good for health .

Now, as far as I can see, none of the Azhvars talk about smrithees at all. This makes me think SV as Azhvars saw and practiced was indeed free of smrithee injunctions, but were introduced and enforced by Vadama converts even by the time of Ramanuja.




Yes, I agree with this, instead, the Brahmins hijacked SV and made sure all the smrithee rules are applied with even more rigor, and that was really a very sad development.

Cheers!

Infact the egalitarian SV does not exist today. The Guadiya seems to have fared better and there are no major objections within the Gaudiya brahmins to see a NB or a non gaudiya getting invested with sacred thread and initiated with the procedures relevant for their sect. Their bad luck is that internally Gaudiya mutts of old in Bengal, could not represent themselves as a dynamic and attractive organization for the average bengalis. So indiscipline in the mutts probably allowed them to be a lack luster organization and till the 19 th century when a new offshoot took place which tended to grow. The surprising thing is that in a land of shakta worshippers and meat eaters, there are some strictly vegetarian gaudiya families and many of them are non brahmin,and follow many rules of cleanliness which the bengali brahmin has long left.

 

[happyhindu]

Happy, Slightly later, 7th to 9th century CE is what is thought to be the most probable dates.

Ah ok, then rigidity of caste system by this time is expected.

Well, the Tamilized word is used, yes, for example, in Varanam Ayiram, Andal uses the term "பார்ப்பனச் சிட்டர்கள்" (pArppana cittarkaL). As you can see, the word is used respectfully, not in a pejorative way.

I believe elderly people still use the words parpana varu, ayya vary / ayya varu, ayya garu, swamy garu.. There is not a single hint of lack of respect. I feel the term can become disrespectful only when used with political approach / political connotations.

Thonjdaradippodi uses the phrase "சாதி அந்தணர்" (sAthi anthaNar) in verse #43 of Thirumalai when he admonishes the haughty Brahmins that if they treat devotees badly they will turn into pulaiya in an instant. Here, the Azhvar simply says "பழிப்பராகில்" (pazippar Akil) and does not mention whether the one getting treated badly is NB, but the commentator does not leave any doubt, here is what Swami Periyavacchan Pillai says:

"அவர்கள் ஜந்ம மாத்ரத்தையே புத்தி பண்ணித் தங்களைவிட குறைய நினைப்பராகில் குற்றம்"

(it is an offense to think other devotees as lower than themselves based only on their lower status by birth)

​

This is another example of early Acharyas opinion expressed in his own words -- not my words, no twisting, no misinterpretation -- is coolly ignored by even Thenkalais who are supposed to be little more progressive about caste matters.

I am not sure whether the word "pArppanar" is used in this context, I am not able to think of an instance off hand.

The most direct and unflinching is Thondaradippodi (8th century), a little milder is Nammazhvar (9th century), Periyazhvar does it somewhat obliquely, but unmistakable (9th century).

Cheers!

Thankyou for this info sir. I suppose the haughtiness is linked to anthanars and parpanars then. Am wondering if by this time period (7th to 9th century), perhaps the new panar bards (new parpanars / vedic brahmins) had already replaced the old anthanars / parpanars (valluvars) (??). So although the terms anthanars and parpanars were continued in usage, the people within those roles had already changed by this time perhaps. (??).

Since the Pulaya (Pulahas) had already become low castes / untouchables by this time, it wud appear that the replacement scenario was completed by this time period. Will look into more info.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Infact the egalitarian SV does not exist today. The Guadiya seems to have fared better and there are no major objections within the Gaudiya brahmins to see a NB or a non gaudiya getting invested with sacred thread and initiated with the procedures relevant for their sect. Their bad luck is that internally Gaudiya mutts of old in Bengal, could not represent themselves as a dynamic and attractive organization for the average bengalis. So indiscipline in the mutts probably allowed them to be a lack luster organization and till the 19 th century when a new offshoot took place which tended to grow. The surprising thing is that in a land of shakta worshippers and meat eaters, there are some strictly vegetarian gaudiya families and many of them are non brahmin,and follow many rules of cleanliness which the bengali brahmin has long left.

Subbudu sir, I beleive there are egalitarian SVs as well as egalitarian smarthas. Normally people have nothing to do with the dictates of their orthodoxy. The prob is only with the orthodoxy (which i think is also in a dilemma wrt the changing world). The regular people are just the usual loving people....

 

[sangom]

Now, as far as I can see, none of the Azhvars talk about smrithees at all. This makes me think SV as Azhvars saw and practiced was indeed free of smrithee injunctions, but were introduced and enforced by Vadama converts even by the time of Ramanuja.

Yes, I agree with this, instead, the Brahmins hijacked SV and made sure all the smrithee rules are applied with even more rigor, and that was really a very sad development.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

Is it not the scholarly opinion that the Bhakti movement or cult centred around Vishnu in his Tamizh name Maayan or Maal or something similar, started in South India among people who were not necessarily braahmanas and that the Azhvaars' devotional literature was later on incorporated into the philosophical systems of Ramanuja and Madhwa to make them have popular appeal? Not that the SV philosophy was a natural growth of the bhakti movement per se.

I think perhaps this explains the disharmony between the Azhvaars' view of God and their world views and those of the post-Ramanuja seers. I would like to know your views on this.