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"அவர்கள் ஜந்ம மாத்ரத்தையே புத்தி பண்ணித் தங்களைவிட குறைய நினைப்பராகில் குற்றம்"

This should have been etched in golden words and followed by every tamilian to the letter. Coming to think of it, I realize that alwars are a common property of all tamilians. Many Iyers I am aware have traditionally being revering the alwars. People worship Andal to this day.
I think this might have been more better before the sectarian divisions became more rigid.The problem Iyers have I believe is the post ramanuja SV and not alwars per say. May be they were revered the same way as people revere Gandhi today. Believe in caste on one hand and praise Gandhi on the other hand.So there should be no difficulty accepting this declaration.
 
Dear Shri Nara,

Is it not the scholarly opinion that the Bhakti movement or cult centred around Vishnu in his Tamizh name Maayan or Maal or something similar, started in South India among people who were not necessarily braahmanas and that the Azhvaars' devotional literature was later on incorporated into the philosophical systems of Ramanuja and Madhwa to make them have popular appeal? Not that the SV philosophy was a natural growth of the bhakti movement per se.

I think perhaps this explains the disharmony between the Azhvaars' view of God and their world views and those of the post-Ramanuja seers. I would like to know your views on this.


I very much think you are right. Take the present looks like some smarthas have not given up this trait. Krishna premi, Muralidhara swamigal, Vittaldas,Haridas all these bhakti gurus among smarthas have never declared advaita or smritis to be false. They have however adopted the bhakti of tukaram, chaitanya, and other NB vaishnavas into their scheme of things. There seems to be a contrast in respect to their philosophy and the people they have adopted. But I must say all in all, it is a positive development. As probably they Indeed follow the belief that regardless of caste and philosophy, a devotee is a devotee. If this is the case they must be applauded for coming to a more progressive ground.
 
I very much think you are right. Take the present looks like some smarthas have not given up this trait. Krishna premi, Muralidhara swamigal, Vittaldas,Haridas all these bhakti gurus among smarthas have never declared advaita or smritis to be false. They have however adopted the bhakti of tukaram, chaitanya, and other NB vaishnavas into their scheme of things. There seems to be a contrast in respect to their philosophy and the people they have adopted. But I must say all in all, it is a positive development. As probably they Indeed follow the belief that regardless of caste and philosophy, a devotee is a devotee. If this is the case they must be applauded for coming to a more progressive ground.

Shri Subbudu,

Krishna premi, Muralidhara swamigal, are essentially caste (brahmin)-centred, imo. Krishnapremi did a krishna-type act long ago, during 1970's if I remember right and he married some twenty odd young hirls of marraiable age making himself Srikrishna and those ladies as Gopikas. The surprise of our Hinduism is that no action was taken against him for polygamy or anything like that. People may even question my very statement and ask for evidence, which I don't have except my memory and my conscience. My revulsion for all these Bhakti-peddlers probably commenced after seeing and hearing similar antics of many of them.

You say, "As probably they Indeed follow the belief that regardless of caste and philosophy, a devotee is a devotee. If this is the case they must be applauded for coming to a more progressive ground."; but I differ. All these people are very much casteist and are nothing but "udaranimittam bahukritavesham" imo, but the trend today among the people helps them to market their goods very profitably, purchase large tracts, build temples and ashrams and goshaalas, make them profit-earning and thus enrich themselves further. But for all these activities they have a ready scripted religious and eclectic act explanation. For examples some of the bhaktasikhaamanis get into ecstasy while describing the cowpen being run by one such swami saying he had bought (and brought by air-conditioned goods wagon in train), a stud bull and few cows from Brindavan, the direct lineage of the very cattle tended by Krishna himself! The cow-pen itself, it seems, is temperature, air, moisture, etc., controlled automatically, automated milking system and all that, the works, as they say. The so-called bhaktas feel it is a sure pill to moksha if even one gets to drink a spoonful of that milk :)

And now for the eclectic part of it - all the milk running to hundreds of litres twice every day, is distributed free among slum children! I would like an independent unbiased verification, but I have forgotten the name, is it Velukkudi Krishnan himself?
 
Shri Subbudu,

Krishna premi, Muralidhara swamigal, are essentially caste (brahmin)-centred, imo. Krishnapremi did a krishna-type act long ago, during 1970's if I remember right and he married some twenty odd young hirls of marraiable age making himself Srikrishna and those ladies as Gopikas. The surprise of our Hinduism is that no action was taken against him for polygamy or anything like that. People may even question my very statement and ask for evidence, which I don't have except my memory and my conscience. My revulsion for all these Bhakti-peddlers probably commenced after seeing and hearing similar antics of many of them.

You say, "As probably they Indeed follow the belief that regardless of caste and philosophy, a devotee is a devotee. If this is the case they must be applauded for coming to a more progressive ground."; but I differ. All these people are very much casteist and are nothing but "udaranimittam bahukritavesham" imo, but the trend today among the people helps them to market their goods very profitably, purchase large tracts, build temples and ashrams and goshaalas, make them profit-earning and thus enrich themselves further. But for all these activities they have a ready scripted religious and eclectic act explanation. For examples some of the bhaktasikhaamanis get into ecstasy while describing the cowpen being run by one such swami saying he had bought (and brought by air-conditioned goods wagon in train), a stud bull and few cows from Brindavan, the direct lineage of the very cattle tended by Krishna himself! The cow-pen itself, it seems, is temperature, air, moisture, etc., controlled automatically, automated milking system and all that, the works, as they say. The so-called bhaktas feel it is a sure pill to moksha if even one gets to drink a spoonful of that milk :)

And now for the eclectic part of it - all the milk running to hundreds of litres twice every day, is distributed free among slum children! I would like an independent unbiased verification, but I have forgotten the name, is it Velukkudi Krishnan himself?

You may be right. I am not aware of these things, like many wives of krishna premi, as I am not into any of the bhakti groups.

But if someone orthodox adopts Tukaram as a mentor I would call that a positive development.His caste bias may be there but still a positive development. From a purely analytic POV I think something similar may have happened during Ramanuja's time( caste brahmins adopting the ALwars),though I would assume their standards at that time might have been very high .With due respects to the early SV Acharyas.
 
You may be right. I am not aware of these things, like many wives of krishna premi, as I am not into any of the bhakti groups.

But if someone orthodox adopts Tukaram as a mentor I would call that a positive development.His caste bias may be there but still a positive development. From a purely analytic POV I think something similar may have happened during Ramanuja's time( caste brahmins adopting the ALwars),though I would assume their standards at that time might have been very high .With due respects to the early SV Acharyas.

And now for the eclectic part of it - all the milk running to hundreds of litres twice every day, is distributed free among slum children! I would like an independent unbiased verification, but I have forgotten the name, is it Velukkudi Krishnan himself?
I think it is vittaldas as it is his claim that the cows have been brought all the way from Krishna'sland wherever that is- Mathura?
 
....Is it not the scholarly opinion that the Bhakti movement or cult centred around Vishnu in his Tamizh name Maayan or Maal or something similar,
Yes sir, absolutely, the earliest Thirumal poem extant is Paripadal of Sanga kalam. Thirumal is certainly a Tamil god, along with Murugan.

Later, in Silappathikaram Ilango describes a scene in a cowherd village outside Madurai where Kannaki was awaiting Kovalan who had gone into the city for raising money by selling her Silambu. Kannaki was downcast after seeing bad omens. To cheer her up the women of the village gather around to sing and dance the praise of Thirumal. The words of this song was popularized by M.S. -- vadavaraiyai maththaakki. It is a wonder that a Jain could come up with such grand and beautiful verse in praise of a god he himself did not believe in!

Even the earliest of Azhvars sing the praise of many Vishnu temples. Thirumangai Azhvar, one of the later Azhvars and by some accounts the last one, starts out from Badri and Saligramam of Nepal and sings of various temples all the way down to Pandiyan country. Nammazhvar also sings of Perumal temples all over, including ones along Kerala from TVM up to Thiruvalla and beyond. From this we can safely conclude Thirumal worship was quite widespread in Tamil country by the time of the Azhvars.

We also find in Azhvar pasurams a few concepts that may not have been there during the time of Paripadal, (i) Thirumal is praised as a Vedic god, (ii) seeing Sriman Narayana as the supreme Iswara/Para-brahman lording over all other gods, and (iii) exclusive worship of Thirumal.

Then came the early SV acharyas starting with Sriman Nathamuni and reaching intellectual zenith during Ramanuja who wrote Sri Bhashyam and forever made SV into a Brahmnical religion. However, I believe Ramanuja himself was not a confirmed casteist, his use of Gauthama and Manu DS in his Sri Bhashyam not withstanding. He is supposed to have pressed lot of NBs into different SV service and promoted temple entry for untouchables three days a year in Melkottai. But, he did not, or probably could not, go far enough. Even the few small things he did he was constantly questioned.

During Ramanuja's time there must have been an influx of Vadamas joining the ranks of SVs. In due course of time they imposed all the Varna rules that were sort of loosened by Ramanuja a little bit. They also wrote elaborate commentaries of Azhvar pasurams arguing they were consistent with Dharmashasthra rules.

They wrote (or rewrote) Azhvar stories to show they themselves did not transgress any of the oppressive varna rules and argued the Azhvars had great respect for them. One story they love to tell is of Thirumazhisai Azhvar. On his travels one day he came towards a Brahmana goshti chanting Vedas. These Brahmanas, seeing this "shudra" approaching stopped the chanting. Later, for reasons I won't go into here, they wanted to resume their chanting in the presence of the "shudra" Azhvar himself, but had forgotten where they stopped. Then, the Azhvar took a grain of paddy and split it to remind them of where they need to resume. The upshot being, Azhvar knew the Vedas better than anyone else, but still would not utter even one word of it to remind these Brahamanas because of respect for DS rules.

Thus came to a sorry end any hope of continuing the reforms Ramanuja started. The SV Brahmins managed to make everyone believe Azhvar's world-view was nothing different from their own varna-based word view. This is the reason we see objections from Raju. For him and others who share his view, those Acharyas knew what the Azhvars true intents were -- திருவுள்ளம் -- anything contrary is twisting and misinterpreting.

For example, Azhvar only says தொழுமின், கொடுமின் கொள்மின், which can be interpreted expansively or narrowly. These acharyas chose to be narrow and restrict it to simply falling at their feet, exchanging vidya, and accepting Sri Pada Theertam. In their interpretation these words did not mean exchanging girls in marriage. Later, this got further narrowed to just anjali (not falling at the feet), ordinary vidya exchange and not take NB as acharya. Today, often it is not even this and may very well include open derision like, "போ போ பின்னாடி போய் நில்லுங்கோ".

All reforms were put back in the bottle and thrown away by the time of Swami Sri Desikan, about 750 years ago. He is the one who wrote NB devotee is like a temple cow, however great he may be, he is still a cow only. We may respect that cow for being a temple cow, but can't fall at his feet or take him to be an acharya.

Thus, the SVs do not see any disharmony between the Azhvars' view and those of the post-Ramanuja seers. Only those of us who twist and misinterpret see such disharmony :).

Cheers!

p.s. SV = Sri Vaishnavam, a particular form of Vaishnavam practiced in South India, one in which Lord Narayana and his consort Mahalakshmi are considered inseparable two in one deity, divya dampathi, who grant moksham.
 
Dear Nara Sir,

The Jains worship Kshetrapala and Padmavathi. The heads of Jain Mutts (the Bhattarakas) are in charge of worshipping the idols. Practically all Jain thirthankaras were from the Ikshavaku clan.

There have been reform movements in Jainism leading to formation of Terapantha and Taranpantha. Some details are here: e - Jainism - Followers of Jain Religion are divided into different Jain Sects

Now we are faced with the question who was Kshetrapala and why is He associated with Padmavati. It would seem that Kshetrapal is a folk diety.

I was reading the paper "The Circle of Existence and Interdependence Ecopoetry of the Vedic "Ksetra" or Field". The paper brings out the 'Kshetra divinity' from the Rig and Atharva. That is, both Rig and Athava have texts that revolve around the agricultural field or ksetra and activity associated with the growing of crops and production of food. Examples -- "Ksetrapati" (Rg Veda, IV. 57), is a hymn addressed to the Lord of the Field, and "Krisi" (Atharva Veda, 111.17), is a harvest blessing.

Since the word 'Pala' denotes 'protector' (as in Go-Pala, protector of cows), it is quite possible that 'Kshetrapala' is the Jain version of 'Kshetrapati'.

The adoration of earth, Bhu, as a goddess with Kshetra would seem part of the practices of the vedic farming people.

I believe Jainism and Hinduism have common roots -- but seperated out as different religions. Most likely that commonality is from the Atharva texts.

I suppose irrespective of Jain or Hindu we were / are praying to the same Gods.

I feel there are some similarites between the Jain Kshetrapala with the Gadaba tribe's Sanku devudu and the Tamil Mayon; or maybe Kshetrapal is much more similar to Kala Bhairava / Dattateraya with his Dog vahan. The conch in Sanku Devudu and Tamil Mayon may also be an indicator that these were a coastal people once upon a time. So are Krishna, Kala Bhairava, Dattatreya, Sanku devudu, Kshetrapal -- are the same divinity ??

Regards.
 
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My observation is that there is a tradition of "bhaagavatas" who, like the Bauls of Bengal, had the practice of singing devotional verses and songs too, perhaps, and traversing the agrahaarams. I have heard some reference in Thyagaraja kritis about the sonorous voices of bhagavathas bringing peace of mind etc. (But am not able to locate it at present.)

What most probably was a faith of the lower classes of people, the Vasudeva cult, merged with analogous Krishna cult of the Abheeras in the (northern) Mathura area and became Krishna-Vasudeva cult. "[SIZE=-1]The one chief attribute of this religious perception is devotion or love towards god known as the Dionysian perspective in the west. This feature was not at all prominent in the then Aryanism of Hinduism. The predominant feature of Aryanism was the Apollonian perspective but not the Dionysian.[/SIZE]" (Bhagvatism)

References to Vāsudeva also occur in early Sanskrit literature. Taittiriya Aranyaka (X,i,6) identifies him with Narayana and Vishnu. Pāṇini, ca. 4th century BCE, in his Ashtadhyayi explains the word "Vāsudevaka" as a Bhakta (devotee) of Vāsudeva. At some stage during the Vedic period, Vasudeva and Krishna became one deity or three distinct deities Vasudeva-Krishna, Krishna-Gopala and Narayana, all become identified with Vishnu.[SUP][9][/SUP] and by the time of composition of the redaction of Mahabharata that survives till today.

A Gupta period research makes a "clear mention of Vasudeva as the exclusive object of worship of a group of people", who are referred as bhagavatas.[SUP][10][/SUP]
According to an opinion of some scholars in Patanjali's time identification of Krishna with Vasudeva is an established fact as is surmised from a passage of the Mahabhasya - (jaghana kamsam kila vasudevah).[SUP][11][/SUP] This "supposed earliest phase is though to have been established from the sixth to the fifth centuries BCE at the time of Pāṇini, who in his Astadhyayi explained the word vasudevaka as a bhakta, devotee, of Vasudeva and its believed that Bhagavata religion with the worship od Vasudeva Krishna were at the root of the Vaishnavism in Indian history."[SUP][12][/SUP][SUP][13][/SUP][SUP]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavata#cite_note-12[/SUP]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavata#Initial_History_of_Bhagavata_tradition)

Krishna-Vasudeva-Narayana-Vishnu becoming the Supreme Godhead is the origin of the Ramanuja sampradaya, imo.

Some people get into a pseudo-trance state when they get continually exposed to loud rhythmic sounds at somewhat high decibels. This I think is at the very root of the Bhajan sampradaaya of today. (I have heard highly musical bhajans being sung by group of brahmins, making a complete round of several agrahaarams, in the early morning hours (5.00 A.M. to 6.00 A.M.). Today's bhajans are entirely different. Their main aim appears to me to be making high decibel noise even if it becomes cacophony. People who get the pseudo-trance state then start jumping off the ground (frog-jumping a la Mahesh Yogi's yogic flying!) and the rest of the devout crowd applaud duly astonished by the by the bhakti effervescence demonstrated by the more devout who start showing uncontrolled behaviour.

Thukaram's abhangs and their crescendo ending styled like "विठ्ठल् विठ्ठल् जै जै विठ्ठल् (viṭhṭhal viṭhṭhal jai jai viṭhṭhal)", etc., are the staple nourishment for this stage in bhajanais. I suspect that the acceptance of the works of Thukaram has been on account of this advantage. Plus, the knowledge of the Marathi abhangs adds to the standing of the bhagavata/s, just as knowledge of English of brahmins conferred high status once upon a time and even today the mod language like "Dude, Cool, make out, etc.," are supposed to confer added status to the speaker. ;) Talking of Thukaram, I have not found bhajan's using kabir's dohe much, nor the compositions of many other bhaktas or sants. Hence the reconciliation with Thukaram et al is not indicative of any real acceptance of lower castes I suppose.
 
Sangom sir,

One doubt -- why would the Vasudeva cult be associated with a 'lower' class of people?

Since there is no evidence of oppression in tribal caste (occupational) structures, i wud think there was nothing called high and low in the past (wrt occupation) . The highs and lows come from the varna system and are ofcourse invariably linked to the smritis. So wud the term 'lower' class apply to the Vasudeva cult if we were to disregard the varna system ?? Or if the Vasudeva cult were to pre-date the varna system?

Regards.
 
Yes sir, absolutely, the earliest Thirumal poem extant is Paripadal of Sanga kalam. Thirumal is certainly a Tamil god, along with Murugan.

Later, in Silappathikaram Ilango describes a scene in a cowherd village outside Madurai where Kannaki was awaiting Kovalan who had gone into the city for raising money by selling her Silambu. Kannaki was downcast after seeing bad omens. To cheer her up the women of the village gather around to sing and dance the praise of Thirumal. The words of this song was popularized by M.S. -- vadavaraiyai maththaakki. It is a wonder that a Jain could come up with such grand and beautiful verse in praise of a god he himself did not believe in!

Even the earliest of Azhvars sing the praise of many Vishnu temples. Thirumangai Azhvar, one of the later Azhvars and by some accounts the last one, starts out from Badri and Saligramam of Nepal and sings of various temples all the way down to Pandiyan country. Nammazhvar also sings of Perumal temples all over, including ones along Kerala from TVM up to Thiruvalla and beyond. From this we can safely conclude Thirumal worship was quite widespread in Tamil country by the time of the Azhvars.

We also find in Azhvar pasurams a few concepts that may not have been there during the time of Paripadal, (i) Thirumal is praised as a Vedic god, (ii) seeing Sriman Narayana as the supreme Iswara/Para-brahman lording over all other gods, and (iii) exclusive worship of Thirumal.

Then came the early SV acharyas starting with Sriman Nathamuni and reaching intellectual zenith during Ramanuja who wrote Sri Bhashyam and forever made SV into a Brahmnical religion. However, I believe Ramanuja himself was not a confirmed casteist, his use of Gauthama and Manu DS in his Sri Bhashyam not withstanding. He is supposed to have pressed lot of NBs into different SV service and promoted temple entry for untouchables three days a year in Melkottai. But, he did not, or probably could not, go far enough. Even the few small things he did he was constantly questioned.

During Ramanuja's time there must have been an influx of Vadamas joining the ranks of SVs. In due course of time they imposed all the Varna rules that were sort of loosened by Ramanuja a little bit. They also wrote elaborate commentaries of Azhvar pasurams arguing they were consistent with Dharmashasthra rules.

They wrote (or rewrote) Azhvar stories to show they themselves did not transgress any of the oppressive varna rules and argued the Azhvars had great respect for them. One story they love to tell is of Thirumazhisai Azhvar. On his travels one day he came towards a Brahmana goshti chanting Vedas. These Brahmanas, seeing this "shudra" approaching stopped the chanting. Later, for reasons I won't go into here, they wanted to resume their chanting in the presence of the "shudra" Azhvar himself, but had forgotten where they stopped. Then, the Azhvar took a grain of paddy and split it to remind them of where they need to resume. The upshot being, Azhvar knew the Vedas better than anyone else, but still would not utter even one word of it to remind these Brahamanas because of respect for DS rules.

Thus came to a sorry end any hope of continuing the reforms Ramanuja started. The SV Brahmins managed to make everyone believe Azhvar's world-view was nothing different from their own varna-based word view. This is the reason we see objections from Raju. For him and others who share his view, those Acharyas knew what the Azhvars true intents were -- திருவுள்ளம் -- anything contrary is twisting and misinterpreting.

For example, Azhvar only says தொழுமின், கொடுமின் கொள்மின், which can be interpreted expansively or narrowly. These acharyas chose to be narrow and restrict it to simply falling at their feet, exchanging vidya, and accepting Sri Pada Theertam. In their interpretation these words did not mean exchanging girls in marriage. Later, this got further narrowed to just anjali (not falling at the feet), ordinary vidya exchange and not take NB as acharya. Today, often it is not even this and may very well include open derision like, "போ போ பின்னாடி போய் நில்லுங்கோ".

All reforms were put back in the bottle and thrown away by the time of Swami Sri Desikan, about 750 years ago. He is the one who wrote NB devotee is like a temple cow, however great he may be, he is still a cow only. We may respect that cow for being a temple cow, but can't fall at his feet or take him to be an acharya.

Thus, the SVs do not see any disharmony between the Azhvars' view and those of the post-Ramanuja seers. Only those of us who twist and misinterpret see such disharmony :).

Cheers!

p.s. SV = Sri Vaishnavam, a particular form of Vaishnavam practiced in South India, one in which Lord Narayana and his consort Mahalakshmi are considered inseparable two in one deity, divya dampathi, who grant moksham.

hi nara sir..
sri padmavathy thayar is worshiped by jains....even today jains have great respect towards padmavathy thayar....they wont worship

any hindu god/goddess...other than padmavathy....may be some SV influence or wealth based......


regards
tbs
 
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