Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[happyhindu]

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Hello HH, greetings! Sorry if I have misunderstood, but from our earlier conversations I had an impression that in your view varna was assigned in guru kulam by the teacher upon graduation or during the course of education. In either case this is only an academic issue.

Oops sorry sir, i shd have been more clear.

What i meant abt the varna assigned is in the common parlance, where varna and jaati is used interchangebly. I meant a child's occupation group was changed according to his inherent qualities and abilities; and did not depend on his father' occupation. This seems to be the common view presented by the ekadandis of various sects (non-shankara ones).

Even if varna and jati were at one time completely different, I don't think they were (viz. BG), it is clear that today they are one and the same thing. Jati is just a more elaborate and detailed version of varna.

I wud not know sir. No one seems to know for sure what the real picture of the past was. It is claimed by the non-shankara mutts, that jaati as an extension of varna, is not present in the vedas. Meaning to say, the way jaati-varna matrix is presented by them varies with the version presented by the Shankara mutts.

There are stumbling blocks, like lack of info, limited info, disappearance of shakas, debates on what is interpolated or not, type of language used, and so on. Am not sure i wud want to see a definitive pic being based on just the BG or a few texts. I mean, i wud rather wait for more info to come out based on various (available) texts.

Am only basing my arguments and ideas on existing literature and that too, only as far as i know (which is limited). From the posts here, i do not think that other posters, of around my age, also know anything more or less than the stuff running inside my head.

There is one more theoretical/academic stuff I need clarification on. You refer to poorva mimamsa and uttara mimamsa sanyasins and you often seem to suggest the Sankara mutt and Vaishnava sanyasees follow poorva mimamsa. This, in my view, is misleading. Indeed there were strict poorva mimasakas who did not care for Uttra mimamsa and were interested only in vedic rituals.

But Uttara mimamsakas by the very definition accept the validity of poorva mimamsa, but they go on to say Vedantam is the whole point of poorva mimamsa. So, it is incorrect to suggest the ekadandees of sankara matam and the thridandees are poorva mimamsakas a la Jaimini, they are not.

Sir my interaction is limited to the ekadandis since my teenage years, so i am able to speak about the various sects within them. I cannot say anything about the Vaishnava sanyasees since i know nothing abt them and have not interacted with them.

The view that all brahmins are poorvamimasakas was first presented by Shri Nacchinarkinijan Ji here.

After hanging out on this forum, i cud not understand why there are so many differences in explanations given by ekadandis of shankara mutts and ekadandis of non-shankara mutts.

I took it up out of curiosity, began reading and speaking to the various ekadandis that i came across and had previously known (and ofcourse i also depend on accounts of people who have had detailed discussions with ekadandis).

Am putting some details here (stuff that you might already know actually):

That Sri Adi Shankara debated with and won over purvamimansakas is known. Also known is that Shri Adi Shankara tried to organize the dashanamis (uttaramimansakas) into 4 mutts.

The dashanamis are non-ritualists. No sir, i do not think all dasanami ekadandis accept the validity of the purvamimansaka ritualism. They simply seem to have no use for rituals and therefore do not really debate about it. Also, they do not accept rituals as way to moksha (i think we already spoke abt this in an other thread in the context of brahmasutra). The POV you are mentioning that the Uttara mimamsakas by the very definition accept the validity of poorva mimamsa, is something that is popular in the Shankara mutts. But reg the non-Shankara mutts, it is open to debate for reasons as follows.

The debate begins this way (and then goes on to the differences in practices):-

-Some claim that Adi Shankara brought the purvamimansaka ritualists and ekadandi monks together under one roof. So the Shankara mutts were not vedantin mutts but were a mix of both the uttaramimansa teachings as well as purvamimansa rituals, right at the time when they were established itself.

-Some others claim that initially the Shankara mutts were vedantin mutts, not into ritualism but became 'taken over' by purvamimansa ritualists over time.
[there maybe some truth to this, since the dashanamis were already non-ritualists themselves, and organizing them by with purvamimansa rituals into their system may not have been really possible. More discussed below marked *.].

Ofcourse, reg the life and times of Shri Adi Shankara, it is variously believed that He incorporated the teachings of bhakti and brahman into the purvamimansaka ritualism system, removed animal sacrifices from yagnas, brought various forms of worship under one system, etc.

*Now comes the tricky part. Strangely, instead of sticking on to the Shankara mutts, the ekadandis stuck away from the Shankara mutts. Their affiliation remained nominal because it is claimed or speculated that what the Shankara mutts represented was not in tune with their teachings. So in effect, the Shankara mutts came to be dominated by the purvamimasaka ritualists - who do accept vedanta, but supposedly give greater importance to ritualism or Jaimini's mimansa sutra.

*Regarding the differences in teaching, the glaring ones are these:

Dasanamis admit anyone into sanyasam, irrespective of caste and gender - and they do so with the claim that, that is the way it has always been. They follow the varna system and consider the jaati model as an unfortunate outcome of the ages.

[please note: The term 'varna shankara' does not exist in the vedas. The claim is that such terms came about in the period when itihaasas were written, as well as the puranic period and the dharmashastra period].

But the Shankara mutts do not recognize fludity of movement from one varna to another. Nor do the admit women into spiritual studies. By doing so, in effect, it is considered that they follow the dharmashastras and not the vedic or vedanta spirit.

Historically, the Shankara mutts were established only in the 8th century (Kanchi mutt is the only one that claims BC times and has an entire list of successors). I wud not want to go into the debate on the origins of the Kanchi Mutt. But the Kanchi mutt, it is beleived, came to exercise some powers on the rest of the 4 mutts established by Shri Adi Shankara. So some people speculate that the taking over of the vedanta mutts of Adi Shankara by ritual priests or purvamimansakas happened in recent times (colonial period perhaps). And that they also represent the dharmashastras and mimansa sutra predominantly, with greater precedence over vedanta.

Regards.

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

I am not that well versed in the minute details of Mimamsas. However my 50,000 foot level view is this:

Adi Shankara (and other Vedantins) accept the role of Purva Mimamsa in so far as it cleanses one's mind, thereby readying one for Gnana through which the supreme is realised. I think the issue he had with the Purva Mimamsians was that they believed that just by following the Karma Khnda edicts as propsed by Rishi Jaimini they would attain moksha, ignoring the Gnana Khanda of the Vedas altogether.

However for a Purva Mimamsian the dharma of a person in the society determines one's karma and there by this ties back to Varnashrama Dharma. Since Vedanta essentially suprseded Purva Mimamsa, with all the break up of Varnashrama Dharma, today Vedanta is continuing to be advanced where there are paths defined (such as Bhakthi, Raja Yoga etc.) that do not require following the Purva Mimamsa sutras to attain moksha.

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri pvraman Ji,

There are various claims by different historians about how the dalits came about. Some (mostly dalit historians) believe that they came about by the 'aryans' defeating the 'dravidians' and those defeated were driven to the outskirts of villages/towns and were forced to do demeaning jobs.

However other historians/religious leaders believe (and this looks more plausible to me) that the dalits were created out of the initial castaways in the Hindu society, who were 'chandalas'. These were normally a couple, for example, where a higher caste women married a lower caste men. Their offsprings were also considered as chandalas. Slowly these outcastes probably involved others who did heinous crimes punishable by being thrown out of the villages/towns. Some who converted to Buddhism/jainism in areas where these religions driven out by Hinduism subsequently by force, probably also were banned like this.

These people, then had to turn to very menial jobs/trades that no one else would do within the villages/towns.

This is why I think Dalits do not fit in to any varnas.

Regards,
KRS

This aryan-dravidian stuff is baseless.

In the north there used to be this concept of 'biradari se nikalna' - removing from the biradari or clan, if someone does something wrong.

So yes sir, i agree with you that the untouchable segment might have been created by removing away wrong-doers from the mainstream society. Their punishment, instead of being sentenced to imprisonment, might have been to do menial labour.

But sir reg the Chandalas, i read some speculation abt a group called Chandela (a rajput clan) speculated to be derived from Chandalas. Not sure if they were originally castaways. Perhaps they were non-vedic in orgin (??) like dasas or dasyu enemies of the vedic tribes ...(??)...so in terms of castaways of irregular unions, am not so sure. Also, various sages were of various origins in the past so not sure they were castaways. Am curious to know if the word Chandala was used in the vedas.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

I am not that well versed in the minute details of Mimamsas. However my 50,000 foot level view is this:

Adi Shankara (and other Vedantins) accept the role of Purva Mimamsa in so far as it cleanses one's mind, thereby readying one for Gnana through which the supreme is realised. I think the issue he had with the Purva Mimamsians was that they believed that just by following the Karma Khnda edicts as propsed by Rishi Jaimini they would attain moksha, ignoring the Gnana Khanda of the Vedas altogether.

However for a Purva Mimamsian the dharma of a person in the society determines one's karma and there by this ties back to Varnashrama Dharma. Since Vedanta essentially suprseded Purva Mimamsa, with all the break up of Varnashrama Dharma, today Vedanta is continuing to be advanced where there are paths defined (such as Bhakthi, Raja Yoga etc.) that do not require following the Purva Mimamsa sutras to attain moksha.

Regards,
KRS

Very well summed up sir..and look at me, i took so many paragraphs trying to get this across :doh: i think i just need some sleep..getting blurred...

 

[Ramansrini]

I had clear idea about varnashra dharma before I joined this forum, but it looks we have two different opinions.

I provided here the explanation about Varna Dharma from some of the authentic sources. Please read and figure out what is Varnashram Dharma

Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami book Dancing Siva:

Dancing with Siva, Mandala 12: Four Dharmas

Every human society defines a complex stratification of community interaction. Scholarly, pious souls of exceptional learning are the wise brahmins. Lawmakers and law-enforcers are the guardian kshatriyas. Bankers and businessmen are merchant vaishyas. Laborers, workers and artisans are shudras. In addition to these four classes, or varnas, are hundreds of castes, or jatis. In Hindu societies, class and caste, which dictates one's occupation and community, is largely hereditary. However, these birth-imposed categories can be transcended by the ambitious who enter new careers through education, skill and persistence. Social dharma is fulfilled in adherence to the laws of our nation, to our community responsibilities and to our obligations among family and friends. A comprehensive system of duties, morals and religious observances make up God's law at work in our daily life. Rightly followed, varna dharma enhances individual and family progress and ensures the continuity of culture. The Vedas say, "When a man is born, whoever he may be, there is born simultaneously a debt to the Gods, to the sages, to the ancestors and to men." Aum Namah Sivaya.

Swami Sivananda (The Divine Life Society, Rishikesh) , in his commentary on Gita,Ch.18, verses 41,and 45 says:

"Mankind is organised into the four castes and each man`s life is divided into four stages, according to the nature of the Gunas and the degree of growth or evolution. This is the division of labour for which each caste is fitted according to its own nature. The duty prescribed is your sole support, each devoted to his own duty in accordance with his own nature or caste,and the highest service you can render to the Supreme is to carry it out whole-heartedly, without expectation of fruits, with the attitude of dedication to the Lord.
The caste system is, indeed, a splendid thing. It is quite flawless. But the defect came in from somewhere else. The classes gradually neglected their duties. The test of ability and character slowly vanished. Birth became the chief consideration in determining castes. All castes fell from their ideals and forgot all about their duties."

 

[Nara]

Thank you my friend, sister HH, a nice overview. I also like Shri KRS's very precise contribution to this discussion.

Sri Vaishnavas do take both poorva and uttara mimasa as perfectly valid, and they do take a lot of pride that only they accept the validity of every word in the Vedas.

It is interesting to read about Vedantins who view poorva mimamsa as invalid. I need to read up on this some more.

Some more comments:

.... Am not sure i wud want to see a definitive pic being based on just the BG or a few texts. I mean, i wud rather wait for more info to come out based on various (available) texts.

Yes, I agree. Some say BG itself is an interpolation around the 8th century CE. By this time varna may have transformed into an elaborate jati system. That would explain Arjuna's concern about jati/varna getting all mixed up.

From the posts here, i do not think that other posters, of around my age, also know anything more or less than the stuff running inside my head.

You are being very charitable. I am not. There is so much talk about the great Brahminical tradition etc., but some here just walk in with great and long discussion of Athma, Veda, etc. without even the most basic of facts straight.

i do not think all dasanami ekadandis accept the validity of the purvamimansaka ritualism. They simply seem to have no use for rituals and therefore do not really debate about it.

Is it possible that they just look at Vedantam and not bother about rituals, which is not to the same as rejecting poorva mimamsa?

Also, they do not accept rituals as way to moksha

I think nobody accepts rituals as a direct means of moksha. The SV view is that the poorvamimamsa rituals, when done as swayam prayojanam, will lead to annihilation of karma that will then lead to proper mokshopaya. But that is not a required starting point, one can skip all rituals and directly go to moshopaya also.

From Shri KRS's post it seems this is the case with Shankara matam as well.

Do you know of any branch that views poorbamimasa rituals as a direct and independent mokshopaya?

Thank you for the interesting discussion.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Nara Ji and Srimathi HH Ji,

Advaitha Vedantins believe that the PurvaMimamsa rituals in fact will lead to performing punya and thereby will grant the interim world of swarga. So, they consider this as applicable to mumukshus, where as the gnana which leads to moksha is available only to the souls that go beyond this.

It is indeed interesting to note that VS holds that both mimamsas are equally valid in attaining 'moksham' in the vaishnava sense (if I got this correctly). In this respect your description that performing rituals will wash away karma in VS is most interesting. In the advaitin tradition, accruing punya will indeed add to karama, but the karma phala will be positive. Can this be because the concept of 'moksha' in VS is vaikuntam, which is akin to swarga? Please correct me if I am wrong. I am speculating.



Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Nara ji,

"Is it possible that they just look at Vedantam and not bother about rituals, which is not to the same as rejecting poorva mimamsa?"

Sir, i only know that they say rituals are not important. But they are not averse to rituals. Infact if someone is in great difficulty, prayers or havans (homams) are recommended by some gurus. They worship Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Parvati, Lakshmi, all deities. Every living soul we see on earth are divine souls to them.

But once the brahmachari accepts sanyasam, he does no rituals. What they say is that all rituals beget some or the other fruit as results. But when a sanyasee takes his sanyasa vows, he has no desires, has emptied his mind, has burned his vasanas and so he needs no rituals. Union with brahman, according to them, happens on its own, as one goes along on that path by yog sadhana.

Its possible that only for moksha, they do not consider rituals to be the path. Their concept of moksha is brahmalokam from which there is no re-birth. And that to them, is a form of immortality, or deathless death or samadhi, attainable by raising the kundalini, that is by yoga practice. In that sense, they are purely vedantins (or followers of the yoga, samkhya, vedanta schools).

"Do you know of any branch that views poorbamimasa rituals as a direct and independent mokshopaya?"

i think the namboodaris are purely poorvamimansakas. I don't know if they view rituals as a direct and independent path of moksha; but in general poorvamimansakas consider rituals to be the path to the release. So, i suppose that they are purely followers of Jaimini's Mimansa Sutra.

Some ask that since Jaimini rejected the brahman of Badrayana, so how can priests claim to be brahmins, since according to Badrayan, ritualism takes a soul to pitruloka (from which there is a return), and not to the permanence of brahmaloka (since they have not attained brahman) ? To them, priests are priests, not brahmins or not the ones who have attained brahman or moksham or oneness with the antaryami.

Perhaps the reason why namboodiris had to come up with Keralolpathy to claim to be "brahmins" was bcoz they are purely Purva Mimansa followers (in effect those who had no concept of brahman in their teachings) (??).

The book "The Yoga Tradition" by Georg Feuerstein and Ken Wilber, says that purva mimansa thinkers did not believe in God and sections of the purva mimansa school started believing in a creator god concept only from the 15th century onwards.

The merger of purva mimansa ritualism and the brahman of Badrayan (as concepts) do not seem to have happened for a long time. Both schools remained sort of independent from each other, yet sort of inter-connected.

We do not know if Shri Adi Shankara succeeded in merging the concepts (methinks He did succeed, but partially). It was during the bhakti period of Shri Adi Shankara, that a more 'humane' approach was taken. Until then, animal sacrifices seem to have been made in homams.

Despite all the changes, the debate still remains -- do rituals result in "release" (as Jaimini believed it to be, since it also not clear if Jaimini believed in "Moksham") or does self-realization result in moksham (as Badrayan believed it to be) ? Who knows really? Perhaps only God.

All the monastic traditions we see today, either take the Semi-Badrayan route (that is, together with rituals) or they take the Pure-Badrayan route (that is, with no rituals upon sanyasam).

Regards.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Shri RVR,

IMHO, reservation policy in education and government jobs is not equal to crucifixion of the present generation of brahmins. No brahmin is prevented even from practicing untouchability in his/her life. Since Vedas represent cultural heritage, Vedic trusts are granted tax exempt status even though they continue their exclusionary practices based on caste.

One of the reasons Brahmin bashing continues today is the brahmins continue with their holier-than-thou attitude and behavior. The B's have not come to terms with the Varna based oppression over centuries. Even now there are many who continue to rationalize with statements like varna system was a benign one devised for the harmonious functioning society.

There probably were and still are many NB land owners. But, till about a couple of generations back, most B's lived on the patronage of kings and the hard labor of dalits. No B land owner ever tilled the land, or did any backbreaking work. The dalit farmers were dutifully filling their குருணி season after season and B's either sat on their backside and enlarged their bellies, or engaged in such tasks as trade or lending at usury rates, or took up 10 - 5 p.m. clerical work for their white skinned masters -- talk about Brahmin occupation.

The push back for the 1968 incident was led by Vinobha Bhave followers including by one Mrs. Krishnammal Jagannathan, a dalit. She was awarded the alternate Nobel prize last year. The communist B's are B's only to the extent I am a B. There is nothing in this incidence for B's to be proud of. If anything, the murderous nayakar land owners were probably advised and represented by TB's.

The political reality of TN is a matter for the Tamil body politic to deal with. It is not germane here.

Cheers!

Sri Nara ji,

A perfect explanation......

As far as I am concerned..

 

[happyhindu]

Ramansrini,

In general Varna and Jaati are used interchangebly.

Its not a good idea to take a few excerpts of these gurus as a representative of their beliefs.

Only if one has delved well into the literature produced by them, can one say that their thinking leaned towards so-and-so school of thought or ideas of varna-jaati. And ofcourse it wud also depend under which order or sect they took their sanyasam.

It is believed that varna came to be associated with jaati in either the late vedic period or around the time that the dharmashastras first began to be written (around 500bc ??). The smrithis seem to have played their role in enforcing the birth based structures. At that time, perhaps it was not so wrong, and perhaps it came to be abused only later.

Sri Shivananda did take the probs with Shrutis into account and wrote abt the need for a new shruti. So we cannot say that he endorsed birth-based occupation fixation for the present. The excerpts below might have been his way of explaining how things were in the past.

Same goes for Sri Subramuniyaswami who was a Saiva Siddhanta - He might have only described how things were in the past and not used it to endorse a similar model in the present times. If am not wrong, Shaiva Siddhanta school also follows the varna model, not the jaati model (please correct me if i got this wrong).

Regards.

I had clear idea about varnashra dharma before I joined this forum, but it looks we have two different opinions.

I provided here the explanation about Varna Dharma from some of the authentic sources. Please read and figure out what is Varnashram Dharma

Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami book Dancing Siva:

Dancing with Siva, Mandala 12: Four Dharmas

Every human society defines a complex stratification of community interaction. Scholarly, pious souls of exceptional learning are the wise brahmins. Lawmakers and law-enforcers are the guardian kshatriyas. Bankers and businessmen are merchant vaishyas. Laborers, workers and artisans are shudras. In addition to these four classes, or varnas, are hundreds of castes, or jatis. In Hindu societies, class and caste, which dictates one's occupation and community, is largely hereditary. However, these birth-imposed categories can be transcended by the ambitious who enter new careers through education, skill and persistence. Social dharma is fulfilled in adherence to the laws of our nation, to our community responsibilities and to our obligations among family and friends. A comprehensive system of duties, morals and religious observances make up God's law at work in our daily life. Rightly followed, varna dharma enhances individual and family progress and ensures the continuity of culture. The Vedas say, "When a man is born, whoever he may be, there is born simultaneously a debt to the Gods, to the sages, to the ancestors and to men." Aum Namah Sivaya.

Swami Sivananda (The Divine Life Society, Rishikesh) , in his commentary on Gita,Ch.18, verses 41,and 45 says:

"Mankind is organised into the four castes and each man`s life is divided into four stages, according to the nature of the Gunas and the degree of growth or evolution. This is the division of labour for which each caste is fitted according to its own nature. The duty prescribed is your sole support, each devoted to his own duty in accordance with his own nature or caste,and the highest service you can render to the Supreme is to carry it out whole-heartedly, without expectation of fruits, with the attitude of dedication to the Lord.
The caste system is, indeed, a splendid thing. It is quite flawless. But the defect came in from somewhere else. The classes gradually neglected their duties. The test of ability and character slowly vanished. Birth became the chief consideration in determining castes. All castes fell from their ideals and forgot all about their duties."

 

[C RAVI]

Hello HH, you are indeed correct to raise these questions.

Unfortunately, there is no awareness of certain basic facts and yet people venture in with all sorts of sweeping statements. The basic nature of jeevathma is well defined in the very second chapter of BG. It is there for all to look at and easily understand.

There is a near universal consensus that there is no தாரதம்யம் (superior/inferior) when it comes to the essential nature of Jeevas. Only Madhwa dwaitees associate gender and varna to athma. Jati/Varna differences, superiority, inferiority come into picture only when a jeeva is born into a body due to karma.

This is a fundamental concept for Hindus in general. Why do people who are not familiar with even the basics get into a discussion of the nature of athma, etc., unless they are proposing a completely new religion?

Cheers!

Sri Nara ji,

You have perfectly pointed out the mistakes of some one here who has ventured in this thread with all sort of sweeping statements without having familiarity with even the basics. Hats off to you for acting smart to avoid unnecessary interference for the benefit of learned and intelectual members here.

I have neither initiated this thread nor passed on my views up to good numbers of posting. I started posting my view when I could feel for it and was willing to share my views and receive some feedback. Definitely not expecting members to validate my views, but to get more clarity on my perceptions and for the interest to express myself.

As a basic flow of the discussions, I was cross questioned, for which I came up with my answers that forced me to express some of my own views.

During every posting I re-iterated that these are my own perceptions without referring to scriptures.

If my comments were found ridiculous and irritating than learned members here should not have responded to them. Or if they are well composed and understand me as a layman (as I have stated very often) can generously give educative reply to my cross questions rather challenging me with some more inter-related questions.

If some one cross questions me than I feel that it would be my duty to respond to such questions to the best of my understanding as a courtesy.

Sri Nara ji, if yourself or Ms.Happyhidnu or any of our members or moderators would have politely asked me to refrain from any posting into this serious discussions, it would have been much better and healthier and would prominently demonstrate the intellectual caliber of learned people( I certainly would have felt happy and would not have had any disappointments), Rather Feeling Happy and Proud to have expressed such Sarcastic Remarks.

I could very well feel the rebellious qualities of most of learned and intellectual Brahmins in our society and could understand the plight of Shudras who were quenched and were deprived from learning.

I have no hard feelings to have received such a remark. I am only repenting and feeling sorry for myself having posted my views ridiculously and having wasted my time and effort.

I sincerely apologize to every learned members here to have disturbed you all.

I SWEAR, in future I would not participate in any thread that all are concerned with Vedam/Shastram/Jeevatma/Paramatma/Cast-Varna systems etc...that should be discussed only among the most intelligent and learned members.

 

[RVR]

Forget the past of Jathi, Varna etc.

Don't bother about swarga, naraga, moksha, vaikunatha, sivaloga etc.

Think about present body and soul

Only body has a name which is man made. Soul doesn't have any name.

Body is a perishable commodity. Soul is suppose to be eternal.

Only body requires food, not the soul.

Only body requires clothes - not the soul.

Only body requires all the comforts - Shelter,AC, Car etc. Not the soul.

Only body has the differentiation of male and female- Not the soul

Only body requires sexual pleasures - Not the soul

Only body requires income, wealth etc. - Not the soul.

Only body has a caste, religion, language and race attached to it. Not the soul

All the relations and friendships are only for body. Not for the soul.

Personally I prefer Ramana Maharishi's path of self enquiry `Who Am I?' It is upto each and every individual to follow their path.

Ramana Maharishi says the above self enquiry will drive away thoughts.

Once thoughts are evaporated, the mind will identify with the soul and not the body.

We normally identify ourselves with the body and fight with each other.

If we identify ourselves with the soul, then there may not be any differences among ourselves.

When the soul leaves the body, the body has no value. It is burnt or buried at the earliest possible time. If we have to preserve, we have to go for refrigerated condition.

Soul is not carrying anything forward except probably the results of our actions.

Hence talking about caste, varna is talking about body only.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Ravi ji,

I think i have caused you hurt with my questions. Please do not think that i have cross-questioned you. You are a friend and i did not question to put you down. Neither did i intend to be rude with you. The questions were just a way of interacting. Please do not think anything more out of it.

If I had to explain my thots with details, i wud have ended up writing paragrahs and paragraphs. I do not know to explain in brief like Shri Nara ji and others here. Writing about certain things does not come naturally to me. It takes some effort to get my ideas across. I apologise with all my heart for hurting you. I am sorry. Please continue to interact on all topics. It does not matter about what is right or wrong. I keep understanding so many things wrongly that many times i cannot understand which or what is the right way. Only by interacting we learn new things. My apologies again. Hope you wud accept.

Best wishes.

 

[happyhindu]

Forget the past of Jathi, Varna etc.....

..Only body has a name which is man made. Soul doesn't have any name.

..Body is a perishable commodity. Soul is suppose to be eternal.

..
Once thoughts are evaporated, the mind will identify with the soul and not the body.

We normally identify ourselves with the body and fight with each other.

If we identify ourselves with the soul, then there may not be any differences among ourselves.

..Soul is not carrying anything forward except probably the results of our actions.

Hence talking about caste, varna is talking about body only.

Dear Sri RVR ji,

Very nice.

Somehow the last sentence can be understood as something that is typical of a purvamimansa follower, with a small personal pov to it..

But sir, am still trying to think what can be the solutions to address the past anger of segregations that dalits have on brahmins and other hindus in general.

Leaving all these shastras aside, please let us try to think in terms of individuals, as just souls as you have mentioned. I do think we have wronged them sir. And instead of trying to still keep them seperated, what is the better way to welcome them home - and i mean welcoming them into the hindu fold from the scriptural POV. Any suggestions sir?

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara Sir, My replies in Blue

Dear Shri RVR,

IMHO, reservation policy in education and government jobs is not equal to crucifixion of the present generation of brahmins. No brahmin is prevented even from practicing untouchability in his/her life. Since Vedas represent cultural heritage, Vedic trusts are granted tax exempt status even though they continue their exclusionary practices based on caste.

I don't think Brahmins in general practice untouchability nowadays. It is mostly practiced by caste Hindus in certain villages. All the educational institutions including commercial institutions collecting huge capitation fee and tuition fee get tax exemption status. Nothing prevents from Income tax authorities to investigate and withdraw exemptions if they are misused.

One of the reasons Brahmin bashing continues today is the brahmins continue with their holier-than-thou attitude and behavior. The B's have not come to terms with the Varna based oppression over centuries. Even now there are many who continue to rationalize with statements like varna system was a benign one devised for the harmonious functioning society.

Privately let any community practice anything. But openly I don't think brahmin community is issuing any statements justifying varna system. Personally I feel Brahmins themselves have deviated from the path devised under Varna system and they don't have any right to talk about it unless they practice it themselves.

There probably were and still are many NB land owners. But, till about a couple of generations back, most B's lived on the patronage of kings and the hard labor of dalits. No B land owner ever tilled the land, or did any backbreaking work. The dalit farmers were dutifully filling their குருணி season after season and B's either sat on their backside and enlarged their bellies, or engaged in such tasks as trade or lending at usury rates, or took up 10 - 5 p.m. clerical work for their white skinned masters -- talk about Brahmin occupation.

Brahmins have never tilled the land. But even landlords belonging to a most backward community say Thevar or Vanniar has never tilled the land. My own dalith classmate in my village is a big landlord now and he is not personally tilling the lands. It is education and money power which prevents them from tilling the land and not the caste alone.

The push back for the 1968 incident was led by Vinobha Bhave followers including by one Mrs. Krishnammal Jagannathan, a dalit. She was awarded the alternate Nobel prize last year. The communist B's are B's only to the extent I am a B. There is nothing in this incidence for B's to be proud of. If anything, the murderous nayakar land owners were probably advised and represented by TB's.

Personally I know the incident in Kilavenmani since the place is situated few miles away from my native village. The land owners belonging to NB community (I don't want to mention the name of the community) were totally arrogant and were not listening to our community. My father has advised them several times not to indulge in violence and talk to them politely to sort out the matter. But these people were vehement to take revenge against daliths and at a flash point this incident occured.

Communist movement was spearheaded by Brahmins only. Even in my village agraharam (65 houses were there), the poor brahmins turned communists those days. Infact one chap hoisted communist flag right at the agraharam itself.

Even today Sri N.Ram of The Hindu newspaper knows communism much better than most of the living communists. Brahmins were not that much materialistic for generations and have sympathised communism. Even Sri Narayanamurthi, Chairman of Infosys was communist sympathiser.

The political reality of TN is a matter for the Tamil body politic to deal with. It is not germane here.

Cheers!

All the best

 

[Nara]

I SWEAR, in future I would not participate in any thread that all are concerned with Vedam/Shastram/Jeevatma/Paramatma/Cast-Varna systems etc...that should be discussed only among the most intelligent and learned members.

Dear Ravi, you are probably younger than my youngest child, so let me take a little bit of liberty here.

I was hard on you and for that I offer my apology. Age does not matter for saying sorry, I do that all the time to my children also.

IMHO, the correct attitude is not to go into your shell, but take this as a challenge and learn. Ask more questions instead of declaring your own personal views. Provide supporting evidence when you do express your personal views.

Hope you will continue to be your cheerful self...

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

It is indeed interesting to note that VS holds that both mimamsas are equally valid in attaining 'moksham' in the vaishnava sense (if I got this correctly).

For moksham there are only one/two upayas, prapatti (both kalais), and bhakti yoga (vadakalai only). Poorva mimamsa rituals are not necessary or even sufficient on their own. They can help if and only if done as svayamprayojanam.

In this respect your description that performing rituals will wash away karma in VS is most interesting.

Only if they are done without any goal in mind. Sv's also believe that puNya is an impediment to moksha. They say, if paapam is handcuffs made of iron, puNya is handcuffs made of gold.

Can this be because the concept of 'moksha' in VS is vaikuntam, which is akin to swarga?

No, swarga is not Sri vaikuntam. Swarga is where you enjoy the results of punya. This is time bound. Once your allotted enjoyment is over, you return to another birth.

Sri vasikuntam is release from the cycle of birth-death-rebirth aka samsara. This will result only after all karma is gone, either through bhakti yoga (Vdakalai only) or by prapatti (both kalais).

Cheers!

 

[pbkhema]

Has any one considered the Budhisy view of karma and moksha?Some of the later upanishads and Grihya Sutras are influenced by bidhist thoughts.A;; of us know about Adi Sankars debate.
As per all hindu traditions , budhist alsp karma and moksha are part of the cycle.
But cate system is diffferent and a bne of our society.
Poert failure I am off

 

[RVR]

Dear Sri RVR ji,

Very nice.

Somehow the last sentence can be understood as something that is typical of a purvamimansa follower, with a small personal pov to it..

But sir, am still trying to think what can be the solutions to address the past anger of segregations that dalits have on brahmins and other hindus in general.

Leaving all these shastras aside, please let us try to think in terms of individuals, as just souls as you have mentioned. I do think we have wronged them sir. And instead of trying to still keep them seperated, what is the better way to welcome them home - and i mean welcoming them into the hindu fold from the scriptural POV. Any suggestions sir?

Let us invoke Nandanaar and Thiruppanazhwar to bless all of us. Let us all worship the above two Dalith saints to nurse the past wounds. Let the present day Daliths also forget the past and look for the future.

Paramacharyal use to get foreigners but he use to direct them to Ramana Maharishi as he felt Ramanaa's approach is highly rational and practical. The self enquiry of Ramana Maharishi `Who Am I?' நான் யார் is not confined to any particular God or Religion or Race or Language. It is probably the best rationalist approach to religon, God or whatever it is. It doesn't involve any miracle or black magic. I earnestly feel that it is the best straight forward approach which I have come across so far.

There is a proverb `Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future'. For sinners like me, Ramanaa's approach is the only way.

All the best

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi, you are probably younger than my youngest child, so let me take a little bit of liberty here.

I was hard on you and for that I offer my apology. Age does not matter for saying sorry, I do that all the time to my children also.

IMHO, the correct attitude is not to go into your shell, but take this as a challenge and learn. Ask more questions instead of declaring your own personal views. Provide supporting evidence when you do express your personal views.

Hope you will continue to be your cheerful self...

Cheers!

Sri Nara ji,

I could very well guess your age while going through your various posts. The way a person communicates, the level of maturity that gests revealed in written communication and the strength of the communication can reveal me to some extent as how old a person would be.

As per your age, experience and knowledge you may consider me as an idiot as far as this thread is concerned. But it is ridiculous to consider me as an utter wholesome idiot.

I am not expecting any apology from you and I don’t like elderly people asking apology to some one considerably younger. Please don’t make me feel embarrassed.

Sri Nara ji, I have decided to withdraw myself from participating in such thread to avoid disturbances. I respect your age and your knowledge. I respect other’s knowledge as well irrespective of their age. Since I could find you extremely upset on my idiotic views, I have decided not to venture more in future and keep upsetting you and other most learned and intellectual members here.

My attitude is not wrong. I don’t want to get into my Shell. This Forum is not just to demonstrate one’s knowledge and feel proud of one’s recognition. And not to establish one’s views, ideas and knowledge as the most perfect and authenticated one. That would not suit my individuality as well. I think this forum is to share views and opinions based on acquired knowledge among members and can not guarantee anything more. This is my perception. I need not to prove myself as a competent person in the subject of Vedam/Shastram/Jeevatma/Paramatma/Cas-Varna etc…etc. and receive kudos from you all intellectual guys who all seems to hold good authority in these subject matters.


My attitude is perfectly alright –

1) I don’t feel ashamed to declare that I am a lay man and have not referred to any sculptures ever.
2) Noticing your disgusting feel on my views I could understand your pain.
3) To respect your feelings, I have decided to withdraw myself for ever. If I continue, I may be hurting other members as well.
4) I don’t want to be a disturbing factor in this Forum with threads pertaining to such subjects
5) I don’t want my fellow members to hate me.
6) For me this Forum is not just a platform for we Brahmins to share knowledge and keep enjoying every day
7) For me this Forum is to understand each other, love each other and respect each other, be in unity and explore possibilities of betterment.
8) If I need to be a true Brahmin Member here, than I should be polite and honest with me and with others. I should not be a hindrance to others. Most importantly I should respect the feelings of learned and elderly people like you at any cost.
9) I should not overlook your valid claims of my ignorance and keep challenging you and other. This way I am not going to achieve anything. Rather I would feel ashamed of myself.
10) I don’t like to simply question members to gain knowledge for everything without going through scriptures myself. I feel that would be much shameful. Rather I like to express my views as well while questioning others.


Owing to above reasons, I just want to withdraw myself.

I humbly request you not to pass any more sarcastic remarks on me. You may find the above as well ridiculous and may consider it as escapism.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Ravi,

Kindly allow me to join your conversation with Sri. Nara. sri. Nara had not passed any sarcastic comments about your views. Kindly don't mistake that. He is living and teaching in U.S.A for many years. His approach is concurrent with the approach of any professors/ Lecturers in the west. No opinion is considered silly. He was directing you in presenting your opinion. That was all. as you know very well, I am not learned either. In my case, I have presented some of the most ridiculous opinions in this forum. But all the time I said that it was my opinion and asked for clarifications. If I found an information on the net, I provided the link and still asked for clarifications.

No body hates you Sri. Ravi; as I can see, everyone likes you very much. All I can suggest is, when you voice your opinion, always expect a counter opinion or an improvement to your initial opinion. None of our opinions are concrete. I learned a lot from this forum. Most of my learning came from presenting my half-baked opinions/ knowledge for scrutiny. I may sound like a learned person when I post my messages; but, many members know that I know zilch. When my opinions are unbearbly ridiculous, they come along and correct me; sometimes questions asked of me are answered by some other learned member, because, they know very well those questions are way over my knowledge.

possibly my son is as old as you. Now do I act like such an old, matured person? I do not. I have only so much knowledge. You should not feel so bitter at your young age. Sri. Nara's apology is not sarcastic. It was sincere. He is sincerely encouraging you. I studied in the University here. I know how the teaching staff behave. They are simple, straight forward and honest.

I felt really bad to see your anguish. So, I thought I might have a chat with you. You have a great opportunity to learn nicer things in life from this forum of learned persons. If I had an opportunity to mingle with such learned persons when I was young, possibly my life would have changed for much bigger and better results. So, kindly feel free to take part more in all the topics. Good luck to you young man!

 

[Nara]

... Sri. Nara's apology is not sarcastic.

I want to emphasize this further, I sincerely meant it, I offer it unconditionally. The last thing I want is a discouraged young man.

Cheerss!

 

[Vamanan]

I prefer RVR's way...Ramana's way...
One should start with oneself...
Love unites Brahmin with Brahmin and Non Brahmin...
Hate splits Brahmin from Brahmin..NB from NB
Smile, wipe tears...heal wounds...speak truth...speak it sweetly...
Aagula Neera Pira...
Bahu Shaakha Hi Anantasya Buddhir Avyavasaayinaam...Many branched and infinite are the thoughts of those of undecided mind...

 

[kunjuppu]

I want to emphasize this further, I sincerely meant it, I offer it unconditionally. The last thing I want is a discouraged young man.

Cheerss!

or a discouraged old man either

come on guys, don't everything so seriously.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Shri KRS JI,

Dear Sri pvraman Ji,

However other historians/religious leaders believe (and this looks more plausible to me) that the dalits were created out of the initial castaways in the Hindu society, who were 'chandalas'. These were normally a couple, for example, where a higher caste women married a lower caste men.
............
............
This is why I think Dalits do not fit in to any varnas.

Regards,
KRS

There is such a pov based on our scriptures, Considering the predominant punishment of "ஊரை விட்டு ஒத்தி வைக்கிறது" In those days and pressing the others not to have any relationship with those people, and the jobs like washing etc etc, may be the reason for a group of untouchables.

I read an interesting work of Mr George L Hart recently, who made some reasearch on the old Tamil literature and castes in south india.
Please have a look at this attachment.

This is from Caste system in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (notes 6)

Please go through it.

Regards