Remove the Caste based Reservation System

[sangom]

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It would be most foolish. Please read this article :

'Kitne haath tode maine, maloom?' Meet Hardik Patel, Patidar poster boy and man without a plan


http://www.firstpost.com/politics/k...oster-boy-and-man-without-a-plan-2413230.html

Since Brahmins form a negligible minority in India, will it not be useful for the All India Brahmin Federation to link with this?

I feel this article is an inspired one from GOI circles, mainly to discredit Hardik Patel.

 

[zebra16]

Sri Sangom Sir,

Since Brahmins form a negligible minority in India, will it not be useful for the All India Brahmin Federation to link with this?

I feel this article is an inspired one from GOI circles, mainly to discredit Hardik Patel.

I find the opinion of the Brahmins confusing on the issue of reservations (even in this forum). They demand abolition of reservation with the avowed purpose of promoting meritocracy and in the same breath argue that if other communities get reservation benefits, then they too should get some reservation. There would be mediocrity among Brahmins too just as it is in the other communities. In between they also say that reservations were intended for a specific period and the reservation should have been done away by now. Quite ambivalent position.

They are happy with the position of Sundar Pichai and the system of open merit that made his rise possible and they also want to join hands with Hardik Patel group. As per what I have read, Hardik Patel is not for anti reservation but is for creating space for Patels in the reservation cake.

 

[vgane]

The official stand of RSS has come out today...Will Modi follow this at the risk of losing the Government?

RAIPUR, August 31, 2015

Abolish caste-based quota, says RSS ideologue


Senior Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) ideologue M.G. Vaidya has argued that caste-based reservation given to the Scheduled Castes (SCs), the Scheduled Tribes (STs) and Other Backward Classes (OBCs) in government jobs and educational institutions should be done away with as caste is “no more relevant.”
Speaking to The Hindu in the context of the Patel community’s agitation for reservation in Gujarat, Mr. Vaidya said, “There is no need for caste-based reservation now, because no caste has remained backward. At the most, continue it [reservation] for the SCs and STs, but only for 10 years. Abolish it [caste-based reservation] completely after that.”
The senior RSS leader also trashed the claims of the Patel community in Gujarat and other “dominant communities” in other parts of the county for reservation.

“All the trade in Gujarat is controlled by the Patels. Do they really need reservation? In Maharashtra, Marathas are demanding reservation, whereas most of the Chief Ministers of the State have been Marathas. Jats and Gurjars are also pitching for reservation in other States. Are they really backwards? Even the governments entertain such demands to nourish vote banks,” he claimed.

Favouring the change of criteria for reservation from caste to economic status, Mr. Vaidya said that caste-based reservation has “strengthened” caste divisions rather than eradicating them.
“Concessions have become rights now. Does the son of a Chief Minister or a Collector need reservation,” asked the former spokesperson of the RSS.
Reservation based on economic criteria would benefit the poor and needy among Muslims, Christians, Marathas, Brahmins and other communities, he said.
Mr. Vaidya, however, agreed with Hardik Patel’s contention that either reservation should be given to everyone or it should be abolished altogether.
“He [Hardik] is right in this regard. People are backward these days not because of caste but because of economic conditions. If the criteria of reservation is changed from caste to economic status, then there won’t be permanent reservation. Caste-based reservation is making people remember their caste. How can you eradicate it [caste], if you are making them remember it since their birth?” asked Mr. Vaidya, whose son Manmohan Vaidya is the current chief spokesperson of the RSS.
The RSS ideologue also contended that atrocities against Dalits, at least in Maharashtra, did not take place because of caste hatred but because of land dispute and other reasons.
“What is the relevance of caste? I am a Brahmin but do I practise Purohit Yoga? Does my son do it? Only politicians need caste and have kept it relevant for vote bank politics. It is dangerous for the nation as it divides communities,” said Mr. Vaidya, while expressing concern over the current political

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...tm_source=vuukle&utm_medium=referral#comments

 

[sangom]

Sri Sangom Sir,



I find the opinion of the Brahmins confusing on the issue of reservations (even in this forum). They demand abolition of reservation with the avowed purpose of promoting meritocracy and in the same breath argue that if other communities get reservation benefits, then they too should get some reservation. There would be mediocrity among Brahmins too just as it is in the other communities. In between they also say that reservations were intended for a specific period and the reservation should have been done away by now. Quite ambivalent position.

They are happy with the position of Sundar Pichai and the system of open merit that made his rise possible and they also want to join hands with Hardik Patel group. As per what I have read, Hardik Patel is not for anti reservation but is for creating space for Patels in the reservation cake.

Shri Narayanan,

AFAI have understood the trend and objectives of the various discussions about the reservation policy, in this forum, what I feel is that there are still many people who nostalgically yearn for those good old days to somehow come back when the mere fact of being a "brahmin" could bestow certain unwritten advantages and benefits to a tabra, in matters like admission to school, college, engineering/medical and so on, and, finally, also help that tabra youth to secure a government salaried job which had pension benefits also attached to it, in that (long lost) golden era.

Today, the reserved categories are entitled by law to enjoy some kind of a mirror image of all those covert benefits. It is a moot question whether the specified categories do really stand to enjoy those benefits. If, however, you dig deep into the history of reservations, you will learn that till about 1997, the forward castes [FC](who are outside the purview of the system of reservations) had scuttled the system completely with a very simple "sleight of hand" procedure; the interview committee which will most often comprise only of the FCs, used to write that suitable candidates from the reserved category were not available and consequently, all the job vacancies used to be filled up by appointing FC candidates. This ingenious trick took 47 years to be noticed at last by the powers that be and the 81st. amendment to the Constitution was passed in 2000, three years still later! Now on, all unfilled vacancies of the reserved category had to be "carried forward" and filled from the next recruitment attempt. But then another objection came (obviously from the FC lobbies!); according to the Supreme Court judgement reserved posts cannot exceed 50% and so carry forward has to stop once this level of 50% is reached! The 81st amendment got over this by amending the Constitution and exempting the carry forward from the operation of the 50% norm.

I have detailed these just to show the tenacity and machiavellian scruples of the FC lobby in scuttling the reserved categories from getting the benefits of the reservation system for 50 years! And now the tabras are shouting that even after 65 years, the reservation system is continuing, etc.

I have been saying about 5000 years during which the lower castes had suffered abject inhuman treatment at the hands of the FCs. As long as the going was good, and the wind was favourable, tabras were no angels either towards the lower castes. The Kallidaikurichi gurukulam (of the famous Va. Ve. Su. Ayyar) incident of the last century will be an eye-opener.

Therefore, allow some more time for the lowest castes to come up, implement antyodaya with sincerity and without corruption (but, at the grass roots level, the village people are still in a mindset of centuries ago). Recently I heard from a very reliable source that the SC president of gram panchayat is not allowed to even step on to the verandah of the panchayat office building; the proceedings are actually conducted under a brahmin or some FC presiding and the papers are given to the president who stands outside in the compound and signs, on the dotted line! This is the real India which is Bharat.

Tabras want to benefit either by removal of reservations completely (they think the conditions of the brahmin supremacy era will then come back once again, or can be brought back) or, as the second best option, want a good enough share of the reservation pie so that even the not-so-bright tabra youth will be able to land prized governemnt jobs more easily. That should explain the observed "confusion" of yours, I think.

Note: I am sure there will be the usual caustic, animated rebuttals from certain quarters which are, by now, all too familiar to this forum.

 

[auh]

I think many in this forum make the point about caste based reservation keeping in mind the overall quality it imparts (or does not) to the society as a consequence, and not merely based on their "right" of being a tabra or a patidar or whatever.

 

[prasad1]

To understand the Patidar, or Patel, stir in Gujarat, let us look at the background. Reservations for communities other than Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes actually came to Gujarat before the Mandal Commission report was implemented under Prime Minister V.P. Singh.
In the 1970s, a further 10 per cent reservation for Other Backward Classes was introduced in Gujarat, for communities identified by the Bakshi Commission as socially and educationally backward. This excluded Patidars, who were and are, of course, socially dominant.
A second round of reser-vations came in the 1980s. I was 15 in 1985 when I participated in this round of agitations by the Patidars. This was in Surat and the tally of those killed — the victims being mostly the poor and those of lower castes on whom the Patels unleashed their fury — was over 100. I had actually forgotten the details of the agitation (assuming I had known them all in 1985 — one just goes along with what the others say at that age). I spoke to the writer and civil servant Chandubhai Maheriya and he reminded me that this was after reservations for OBCs were increased to 28 per cent. The implementation of the Mandal Commission report kept adding castes to the list.
In 1999, Atal Behari Vajpayee’s government added the Ghanchi community to the list and at that point Prime Minister Narendra Modi became an OBC. Another of the early beneficiaries of reservation was a group that may be called neo-kshatriyas or kshatriyas. According to the varna system kshatriyas are, of course, “higher” in caste than Patels, but in mercantile Gujarat honour is not at a premium and the warrior was not seen with any great respect. Their social and educational status qualified the kshatriyas as being OBC.
This upset the Patels as kshatriyas are the great rivals of the Patidars politically and any understanding of Gujarat’s politics should begin here. The Bharatiya Janata Party is mostly the party of Patels. The Congress, and it still has a substantial vote share in the state (north of 30 per cent), is mostly a party of the kshatriyas.
This formulation was solidified when chief mi-nister Madhavsinh Solanki cobbled together his Kham coalition, which was a front built with kshatriya, harijan (Gujaratis still use this word instead of dalit), adivasi and Muslim support. This coalition was ranged against Patels, who went, greatly attracted by Hindutva, into the open arms of the BJP.

There is another aspect which needs attention. The Gujarat model of gross domestic product growth was focused on manufacturing. Gujarat is the only major state whose manufactu-ring:services ratio is skewed in favour of manufacturing. This is not a new development and has always been the case. Factories find it easier to operate in Gujarat rather than call centres and the main reason for this is lack of English.


One fallout of this policy is that the great software and services sector boom across our cities has been missing in Gujarat. Though it has three major cities (Ahmedabad and Surat are fourth and eighth in the list of India’s top 10 cities by population), there is no significant presence of Infosys, Wipro, Accen-ture, Tata Consultancy Services or any other such firms which offer so much opportunity to residents of Mumbai, Delhi, Bengaluru and elsewhere, whose basic skill is knowledge of English.
The problem of lack of social mobility and lack of white-collar opportunity is not going to disappear in Gujarat and is not the problem of just the Patidar community. It affects all Gujaratis. It is the creation of a particular kind of economy that is dominated by factories and trading, which has positives and negatives.This is a historical phenomenon and not the doing of Mr Modi alone, of course. The agitation would have happened and been just as fierce even if he had not moved to Delhi.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/150831/commentary-op-ed/article/quota-not-solution

 

[prasad1]

For the past couple of weeks, social media has been dominated by two things – the infamous Indrani Mukerjea case, where the family tree appears to be of national interest; and the demand by the Patels for reservation. We’ve seen videos of policemen vandalising vehicles. We’ve seen the shells of burnt buses. And we all have an opinion on the Patels’ contention.

Hardik Patel and his antics – including his promise to spread his demand for reservation across the country, and across various communities deemed privileged by caste – are a symptom of a disease that has been fostered in India for decades: the idea of quota-for-vote.


Reservation came with the caveat that its usefulness and validity would be examined every few years. However, since the inception of class-based quotas, the term has morphed to ‘caste-based’ quotas. At one time, class may have been synonymous with caste. This is not the case any longer. But it doesn’t suit any politician, or any government, to acknowledge this, since vote bank politics suggest that it is wise to keep communities, rather than classes, happy. There are other ways of appealing to the economically backward, after all.

The thought behind reservation was that those who come from families which have been educated for generations have an unfair advantage over those who are first-generation learners.

There is some credence to this idea. But in exploiting the political mileage that this allowed, our parties have ensured that the principle is all but lost. When you have economically well-off communities, which have been educated for generations, fighting in the Supreme Court for the removal of the ‘creamy layer’ rider, you know that there is something very wrong about the approach we have taken to reservation.

At the moment, politicians who must deal with agitations for reservation in their states are working to find stopgap solutions. Every time a caste creates a ruckus, the government throws them a bone, hoping that they will be satisfied until the next election comes round. This is best illustrated by the treatment of the Gujjar community’s demands in Rajasthan.

This attitude is inimical to the idea of India, leave alone the idea of reservation.

If our aim is to create a class of citizens who are equipped to enter the workforce, we need to re-examine the criteria under which a prospective student or employee qualifies for a reservation quota.

Our long-term aim must be to eliminate reservation. Naturally, this will require that we eliminate the need for reservation, by guaranteeing everyone equal access.

At the moment, this doesn’t seem to be just a distant dream; it seems impossible, because it is inconvenient to those in power.
http://www.sify.com/news/we-need-to...vation-policy-news-columns-pi5pqPggjefci.html

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Sri Sangom Sir,






I find the opinion of the Brahmins confusing on the issue of reservations (even in this forum). They demand abolition of reservation with the avowed purpose of promoting meritocracy and in the same breath argue that if other communities get reservation benefits, then they too should get some reservation. There would be mediocrity among Brahmins too just as it is in the other communities. In between they also say that reservations were intended for a specific period and the reservation should have been done away by now. Quite ambivalent position.

Dear Zebraji,


On almost every topic of discussion, there is disagreement among members here whether the discussion is about faith in God or women's rights or hindutva or death penalty or prohibition - so on and so forth. There are theists, atheists, people who are supportive of brahmins and people who are simply allergic to brahmins even though they may claim loyalty outwardly. Therefore I am not sure how you are clubbing the members with varied opinions on this issue into a single group and claim ambivalence in their position. Unless you feel some members change their position periodically; Even so, I feel it is not proper to generalize as you have done above. As in any issue, the devil is in the details. Therefore as people understand more about an issue, their opinions are bound to change.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Quotas as is implemented in India can be quite debilitating to anyone belonging to general category. Not all people may be aware of all the details.


It is known that there is reservation in government jobs both for SC/ST and OBC. But with a series of constitutional amendments, reservations (for SC/ST) were introduced for promotions also and with one of the most recent constitutional amendments related to his issue (No. 117) the catch-up rule which was in vogue was changed to promotion with consequential seniority.


What does this mean?Let's say there are two candidates X (belonging to unreserved category) and Y (belonging to reserved category). both in the same class of service Grade 1. Say, X is 3 years senior to Y and both are awaiting promotion to the next level ,Grade 2. Unlike in education, where there are a fixed number of seats available every year, in jobs one may get promoted to next level only if a vacancy arises in the next level. X can get promoted only if another general candidate category vacates Grade 2. Y gets promoted if any candidate vacates as long as he has the required seniority. This is how communal roster works. So Y now gets promoted over X due to this roster system. Eventually say after 3 years X also gets promoted to the same grade as Y when a vacancy arises in open category. Earlier when the catch up rule was in vogue– X will regain his seniority of 3 years over Y because he was denied promotion in the first place due to the roster. This means for the open category vacancy in Grade 3 – X has restored his old seniority of 3 years (catch up rule) over Y. Keep in mind that Y still gets priority for Grade 3 if another reserved candidate vacates Grade 3. But with the consequential seniority rule, X who has only recently been promoted is in fact 3 years junior to Y who has been in Grade 2 for 3 years. The fact that X was 3 years senior to Y before the roster system allowed Y to leap-frog is deemed immaterial. For further promotion to Grade 3 – even for open category vacancies as per the roster – X will be considered 3 years junior to Y. In other words, X has lost 6 years inter-se Y. Because this consequential seniority rule applies in every step, many general category candidates remain in the same grade or in the first few grades from their entry until they retire.


The states where this principle was already in place in one form or another, it completely concentrated the top-level posts to the reserved candidates. See this, for example,


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...society-fear-experts/articleshow/17643633.cms


An excerpt from the article:

President of Sarvajan Hitay Sanrakshan Samiti, Shailendra Dubey said that the inequality is very much there in those states where the provision is already in practice. For example in Bihar, all 19 posts of chief engineer in irrigation department are occupied by officers of the SC category. Likewise, all 14 chief engineers in PWD are from the SC/ST category. Similarly, in Karnataka, all 31 posts of chief engineers in Karnataka Power Corporation are occupied by the officers of the SC/ST category. "Why the issue was not taken up in Parliament before the general elections of 2009 or the UP assembly elections? It is nothing but a conspiracy by Congress and the BJP," Dubey said.

Strong opposition to this kind of promotion rule came from the OBCs also because even-though they also have reservation in jobs at the entry level, they do not get reservations for promotions. The unreserved candidates who do not have any political clout have no other way other than to approach court which for many years did provide relief but even the courts had no choice but to yield to the political class. Yet the courts insisted on the condition that the states provide proof of inadequate representation for the rules to apply. Of course, no state has ever provided it. In other words, the courts wanted this rule to be tailored to the actual prevalence of inadequate representation rather than apply it ad-hoc everywhere. So the courts wanted this rule to apply where there is proof of discrimination against SC/STs but not everywhere. But as is the case with every quota, there is never ever any monitoring and the castes who get in enjoy the benefits perpetually. In light of these facts, can anyone blame the Patel community for wanting a share of this pie? Is it reasonable to question their change in stance with respect to reservations which they opposed earlier but not demand it for themselves?


It is claimed in some post, of course, conveniently as an anecdote, that the brahmins/FCs scuttle these provisions which are only in paper, not really implemented. The fact is while promotions in quota may be a recent amendment, quota in jobs have been existing for both OBCs and SC/STs for a long time. Even if the concentration of SC/STs at the top grade is less, the same cannot be claimed of OBCs.Take TN for example, the percentage of brahmins in government services will be even less than their population percentage and there is no question of them dominating the upper grade levels. With 71% of the population classified as OBC and the fact that creamy layer criteria, which is the current rule but never implemented, can it be said that it is the brahmins/FCs who are scuttling the opportunities of SC/STs? So, I feel, these kinds of generalized accusations just flow out of pure malice and nothing else. There was some mention about SC/ST reserved constituencies as well. Once again, the total number of brahmin MLAs, MPs including both houses, councillors etc will be in single digits in TN. In light of this, to claim that somehow brahmins hoodwink the SC/ST panchayat leaders is also bunkum, imo.


There is also a very clever attempt to interchangeably use FCs/ brahmins/ high caste etc when making lose accusations against people of fraud. It is as similar to calling the very people, who are supposed to have been oppressed by brahminism, as brahminical when they indulge in casteist oppression. Whether this is considered an animated reply, I do not know. But people who have extreme prejudice against brahmins bordering hate would like brahmins to believe all this is deserved etc but the brahmins would be foolish to accept it.

 

[vgane]

Therefore, allow some more time for the lowest castes to come up, implement antyodaya with sincerity and without corruption (but, at the grass roots level, the village people are still in a mindset of centuries ago). Recently I heard from a very reliable source that the SC president of gram panchayat is not allowed to even step on to the verandah of the panchayat office building; the proceedings are actually conducted under a brahmin or some FC presiding and the papers are given to the president who stands outside in the compound and signs, on the dotted line! This is the real India which is Bharat.

Can you name the so called Brahmin & the gram panchayat where this practice is followed...As such Brahmins presence in politics is negigible (less than 0.5% )...

Regarding reservations Brahmins are asking for a small % reservation for them in the worst case...S.V.Sekar pleaded with MuKa...Did the fox listen...But if environment is congenial for abolishing reservations then why not...I will definitely go for merit!

 

[zebra16]

Sri Sangm Sir,

Shri Narayanan,


Today, the reserved categories are entitled by law to enjoy some kind of a mirror image of all those covert benefits. It is a moot question whether the specified categories do really stand to enjoy those benefits.

Then is it not illogical to go on expanding the sphere of reservation and/or continuing with it when the intended benefits are not enjoyed by the targeted community.

I have been saying about 5000 years during which the lower castes had suffered abject inhuman treatment at the hands of the FCs.

I have serious issues about this 5000 year bogey. But as my reply to your posts is not yet posted, I would not say anything about the 5000 years.

The second point you have made is about the "abject inhuman treatment meted out to the backwards" in the bye gone era.

Sir, I have to humbly point out that reservation theme is not justice or judicial mechanism for the supposed inhuman or ill treatment of the past. If my great grand father had thrown stone at your great grand father sometime in the last 60-80 years, you do not earn the right to throw stone at me not can I be denied of my legal entitlements because of the acts of my great grand father.

Therefore, allow some more time for the lowest castes to come up, implement antyodaya with sincerity and without corruption

Sir, these days are very fast moving days and people do not have patience even till the windows load on to the computer and start to tinker with cellphone or some other gadget nearby. Plus the world is not going to wait till the backwards catch up with the forwards in India and Indians as a whole (including the reserved categories) feel let down by the system. My personal take is that the theme of reservation wont survive even the next 50 years.

Sir, I have to say that you are studiously avoiding the Machiavellian acts of the politicians who have thrown the intent and purpose of the scheme to the wind and are only bent upon milking the scheme to their own benefit for building up their vote banks. This will undo the system very fast.

 

[sangom]

Can you name the so called Brahmin & the gram panchayat where this practice is followed...As such Brahmins presence in politics is negigible (less than 0.5% )...

Regarding reservations Brahmins are asking for a small % reservation for them in the worst case...S.V.Sekar pleaded with MuKa...Did the fox listen...But if environment is congenial for abolishing reservations then why not...I will definitely go for merit!

This was confided to me and so I cannnot give more details. But this instance and some others have gone into a detailed report on implementation of the Panchayati Raj system in the concerned state and the report was also furnished (submitted) to the concerned state government more than a year ago, but nothing has happened so far!

 

[sangom]

Sri Sangm Sir,

Then is it not illogical to go on expanding the sphere of reservation and/or continuing with it when the intended benefits are not enjoyed by the targeted community.

The intended categories did not get the benefit of reservation not only because of the vile politicians alone but the viler FC officials who may still be the dominant force in the entire government machinery. So, it will be the victory for the non-reserved castes, and a throw-back to the medieval caste-, and untouchability-ridden Indian society, if the reservation is scrapped with immediate effect. In any case scrapping or even any modification will not be easy because either will require a constitutional amendment.

I have serious issues about this 5000 year bogey. But as my reply to your posts is not yet posted, I would not say anything about the 5000 years.

The second point you have made is about the "abject inhuman treatment meted out to the backwards" in the bye gone era.

Sir, I have to humbly point out that reservation theme is not justice or judicial mechanism for the supposed inhuman or ill treatment of the past. If my great grand father had thrown stone at your great grand father sometime in the last 60-80 years, you do not earn the right to throw stone at me not can I be denied of my legal entitlements because of the acts of my great grand father.

Both of us are here in this forum for more than 5 years and you may remember the very animated discussions about reservations, time and again, which this forum had.

Reservation is not akin to stone throwing, it is an affirmative action to set right the deformities caused to the social structure and national cohesion, as a result of hundreds, if not thousands, of years of the dominance by certain privileged groups under the garb of high castes. It (reservation) does not aim to bring in justice of the "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" kind. But my posts in this thread must be showing you how the dalits and the deprived castes are still being given inhuman and unequal treatment by the FCs, especially in rural Bharat. Can we implement the retributive justice there now?

The sad truth is that while for a few urban tabras, the reservation is all about getting admission for self or children in government colleges and securing government jobs, the FCs of all varieties still rule the roost in most of India and starngle the lower castes' development. If the only ray of hope and instrument of empowerment for these deprived classes, viz., the reservation system, is done away with now, it may result ina holocaust and end in the nation getting partitioned into another Islamic state and a Dalitstan and a High Caste India!

Sir, these days are very fast moving days and people do not have patience even till the windows load on to the computer and start to tinker with cellphone or some other gadget nearby. Plus the world is not going to wait till the backwards catch up with the forwards in India and Indians as a whole (including the reserved categories) feel let down by the system. My personal take is that the theme of reservation wont survive even the next 50 years.

Sir, I have to say that you are studiously avoiding the Machiavellian acts of the politicians who have thrown the intent and purpose of the scheme to the wind and are only bent upon milking the scheme to their own benefit for building up their vote banks. This will undo the system very fast.

I am not a Nostradamus, and so I cannot bet on how long the reservations will last. But one thing is certain it appears to me; as long as the high caste lobby of government officials and politicians and the general public, tries to scuttle the proper implementation of the reservation system, it will continue to be a bone of contention between the forward and backward castes. This may not have anything to do with the impatience of genxt, etc.

 

[sarang]

Both ex president Narayanan and Supreme court judge Balakrishnan have said that they achieved what the did and got the positions they were in only because of reservation. Circumstances and politics must have played a part because these posts are not reserved.

 

[zebra16]

Dear Zebraji,


On almost every topic of discussion, there is disagreement among members here whether the discussion is about faith in God or women's rights or hindutva or death penalty or prohibition - so on and so forth. There are theists, atheists, people who are supportive of brahmins and people who are simply allergic to brahmins even though they may claim loyalty outwardly. Therefore I am not sure how you are clubbing the members with varied opinions on this issue into a single group and claim ambivalence in their position. Unless you feel some members change their position periodically; Even so, I feel it is not proper to generalize as you have done above. As in any issue, the devil is in the details. Therefore as people understand more about an issue, their opinions are bound to change.

Dear KB,

When i wrote the post you quoted I was aware that it could be construed as over-generalisation. I would not like to copy-paste posts of members in other threads, but there have been instances where the same member advocate open merit in one thread and also laments lack of reservation to Brahmins in another. It is not periodical change as you termed it, but the impression I got is that the members felt that the Brahmins were discriminated against because of reservation, but the solution was seen as providing some reservation facility to Brahmin community also.

 

[sarang]

Reservation in education can be dispensed with immediately. There is a high level of capacity utilization in schools and colleges, and can be accommodated and taught by having a two shift system or changing the academic duration. Even the need to have a medical college attached to a hospital has no merit, as the subjects taught and treatment given in hospitals are quite different. Change in rules of UGC and technical bodies will release more seats in all branches of education. And there are technical solutions to tackle teacher shortage.

 

[vgane]

This was confided to me and so I cannnot give more details. But this instance and some others have gone into a detailed report on implementation of the Panchayati Raj system in the concerned state and the report was also furnished (submitted) to the concerned state government more than a year ago, but nothing has happened so far!

So it is not Tamil Nadu...Why bring in the all India picture then...We are talking of the suffering of Brahmins in Tamil home land! I am not bothered about other States!

 

[vgane]

If the only ray of hope and instrument of empowerment for these deprived classes, viz., the reservation system, is done away with now, it may result ina holocaust and end in the nation getting partitioned into another Islamic state and a Dalitstan and a High Caste India!

If reservations are removed for Central Government jobs and for premier educational institutions, heaven will not fall..It was a ploy by V.P.Singh to stay in power by splitting the country along casteist lines

 

[sangom]

So it is not Tamil Nadu...Why bring in the all India picture then...We are talking of the suffering of Brahmins in Tamil home land! I am not bothered about other States!

How do you conclude it is not TN?

I never knew that all this crying was only for Tamil Nadu!

Because, the OP shows it is for the whole country. I think you should, therefore, better start a new thread clearly specifying that it is devoted to Tamil Nadu alone and no other state.

 

[vgane]

How do you conclude it is not TN?

I never knew that all this crying was only for Tamil Nadu!

Because, the OP shows it is for the whole country. I think you should, therefore, better start a new thread clearly specifying that it is devoted to Tamil Nadu alone and no other state.

The TN Brahmins have long given up crying...They are have been the whipping boys for the past 75 years...So even if you thrash them in public there will be hardly a whimper of protest...They will rue the Kali kalam, at best....The protests are being orchestrated by well off land owning & politically powerful forward castes (not Brahmin) in the North who are the receiving end on account of Mandal commission...So the TamBrahm can at best fly the coop by hitching onto these discussions (as such only vaich chavadal)

 

[vchadras]

I agree with this view. It has done more damage to the society than any good. Under the grab of doing social justice to the under-privileged class, the central and various state governments had inflicted grave injuries on the body physic of the society with the sole aim of grabbing some more votes based on caste. Its all the more deplorable that the main target of their attack has always remained the brahmins. I don't know if there were any misdeed done and maltreatment of other castes by the brahmins in the past. Even if any, its unpardonable to continue punishing the entire community for decades and decades. Deliberate design to preven professional educational opportunites, repressible attitude towards high-skilled professional opportunities to brahmins and lack of recognition and regard for knowledge and skill, many youngsters in our community had been forced to shift their bases to overseas countries to the detriment of the nation. Its high time that the reservation policy is dropped and equal opportunities are given to one and all based on merit alone.
V. Chandrasekaran.

 

[krish44]

Heart burn of Non OBC castes getting reservations has the following reasoning

1. Creamy layers among OBC, SC/ST are availing reservations. This list includes Children of MPS, MLAs, Civil servants , bank officers, second generation of OBCs availing

benefits when they are well off.

2 Poor among forward castes not getting benefits

3. The wide difference in academic levels of OBCs and forward castes which result in OBCs with very low marks getting admissions while those from forwards with high

percentage are denied admissions in educational institutions. The same disparity get carried over to jobs when a non meritorious OBC gets selected and promoted and merited one

does not get his due.

If only poverty alone is taken as criterion instead of caste for affirmation action by govt ,these issues can be resolved to some extent.

 

[vgane]

Heart burn of Non OBC castes getting reservations has the following reasoning

1. Creamy layers among OBC, SC/ST are availing reservations. This list includes Children of MPS, MLAs, Civil servants , bank officers, second generation of OBCs availing

benefits when they are well off.

2 Poor among forward castes not getting benefits

3. The wide difference in academic levels of OBCs and forward castes which result in OBCs with very low marks getting admissions while those from forwards with high

percentage are denied admissions in educational institutions. The same disparity get carried over to jobs when a non meritorious OBC gets selected and promoted and merited one

does not get his due.

If only poverty alone is taken as criterion instead of caste for affirmation action by govt ,these issues can be resolved to some extent.

Krish Sir,

I agree with you..Bringing in economic criterion in reservations is long over due
...But who is going to bell the cat...All these are linked to electoral dividends...There should be a tapering of reservations...May be we reduce it by 5% every year so that at the end of 10 years there will not be any requirement of reservations..It can happen only if all parties unanimously decide this which is not likely for the next 100 years..We require SC's intervention to have a cut off for availing reservations!

 

[sangom]

It has done more damage to the society than any good.
V. Chandrasekaran.

Sir,

The highlighted sentence does not make much sense, according to me. Will you please elucidate?

 

[sangom]

Heart burn of Non OBC castes getting reservations has the following reasoning

1. Creamy layers among OBC, SC/ST are availing reservations. This list includes Children of MPS, MLAs, Civil servants , bank officers, second generation of OBCs availing benefits when they are well off.

Even if, tomorrow, the whole reservation system is scrapped, I feel our MLAs, MPs, top-ranking govt. officers, top bank officials, why anybody in an influential position who has the discretionary powers to do some quid pro quo to someone else (this may be a Tahasildar, a surveyor or an ITO or someone like that also) will easily get admission for his children in the best schools/colleges and will, with a bit more effort, of course, put his wards in government jobs also. It is "dharmO rakshati rakshitaH" in the contemporary yuga!

2 Poor among forward castes not getting benefits

Do you mean to say that the rich among the FCs are not affected?

3. The wide difference in academic levels of OBCs and forward castes which result in OBCs with very low marks getting admissions while those from forwards with high percentage are denied admissions in educational institutions. The same disparity get carried over to jobs when a non meritorious OBC gets selected and promoted and merited one does not get his due. If only poverty alone is taken as criterion instead of caste for affirmation action by govt ,these issues can be resolved to some extent.

Unfortunately, the historical injustice against some groups of people in this country was based not on richness & poverty, but on the basis of the caste label, be he rich or poor. That the neglected castes managed to be poor is another topic, imo. Hence, our Constitution makers thought of affirmative action on the basis of castes only and not on economic levels.

I am sure that if economic basis is brought in, instead of caste, a large number of rich FCs will produce income certificates from Tahsildar showing annual income of a few hundred rupees for the entire family and all such rich FCs will enjoy the benefits but then, the really poor FCs' cry will not be heard by anyone!