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Is there a universal morality?

prasad1

Active member
No, there is no such thing as universal morality, and it is somewhat surprising that people are still asking this question in the 21st century. Then again, that doesn’t mean that anything goes, a la moral relativism. Of course, much depends on what one means by “universal,” so let’s try to parse things out a bit.

To begin with, if by “universal” we mean that morality is like the laws of physics, or like mathematical theorems, or perhaps like the laws of logic, then forget it. Setting aside interesting discussions on the nature of mathematics and logic and whether even their tenets are truly universal or not, morality isn’t even in the ballpark.

“Morality” comes from the Latin moralis, the word used by Cicero to translate the Greek êthos. The Latin word refers more properly to the habits and customs of a people, while the Greek one is related to the idea of character. So “morality” is concerned with people’s characters and how we interact with each other in society.


Socrates, the Stoics, the Epicureans, the Cynics, and a number of other Greco-Roman schools agreed on one thing: human beings are a particular type of animal, and that particularity lies chiefly in two aspects of what it means to be human: we are highly social, and we are capable of reason.

The first bit means that we are all deeply interdependent on other people. Despite the fashionable nonsense, especially in the United States, about “self-made men” (they are usually men), there actually is no such thing. Without social bonds and support our lives would be, as Thomas Hobbes famously put it, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. The second bit, the one about intelligence, does not mean that we always, or even often, act rationally. Only that we have the capability to do so. Ethics, then, especially (but not only) for the Stoics becomes a matter of “living according to nature,” meaning not to endorse whatever is natural (that’s an elementary logical fallacy), but rather to take seriously the two pillars of human nature: sociality and reason. As Marcus Aurelius put it, “Do what is necessary, and whatever the reason of a social animal naturally requires, and as it requires.” (Meditations, IV.24)

There is something, of course, the ancients did get wrong: they, especially Aristotle, thought that human nature was the result of a teleological process, that everything has a proper function, determined by the very nature of the cosmos. We don’t believe that anymore, not after Copernicus and especially Darwin. But we do know that human beings are indeed a particular product of complex and ongoing evolutionary processes. These processes do not determine a human essence, but they do shape a statistical cluster of characters that define what it means to be human. That cluster, in turn, constrains — without determining — what sort of behaviors are pro-social and lead to human flourishing, and what sort of behaviors don’t. And ethics is the empirically informed philosophical enterprise that attempts to understand and articulate that distinction.

 
Never been and never will be . It only when man start regaining higher level of intelligence they start put conduct on morality . And it changes according to time . You read can marco polo writing when visiting south india during pandya kingdom as example.
 
There is no universal morality or immorality.
There is only Balance.

We call anything moral or immoral when we personalize the experience.

Dharma isnt about morality either.
Dharma is all about maintaining the Homeostasis of Existence.

If we can just leave ourselves out of any equation we can see Balance.
 
Yes it is not only universal but also timeless. The very notion of morality is about transcending place and time. The most fundamental basis of morality is about not harming others in an undue way and also possess a healthy self esteem. How can anything be more fundamental or not be universal and timeless?
 
There is no universal morality or immorality.
There is only Balance.

We call anything moral or immoral when we personalize the experience.

Dharma isnt about morality either.
Dharma is all about maintaining the Homeostasis of Existence.

If we can just leave ourselves out of any equation we can see Balance.
Renuka you got it right. It is about balance. Though the practice can be very intricate and nuanced the practice itself is universal and timeless.
 
I am assuming universality of the structure and functions of mind, soul and body though I believe at the physical level there may be some differences.
 
I am assuming universality of the structure and functions of mind, soul and body though I believe at the physical level there may be some differences.
Rumi explains well,

Love has nothing to do with
the five senses and the six directions:
its goal is only to experience
the attraction exerted by the Beloved.
Afterwards, perhaps, permission
will come from God:
the secrets that ought to be told will be told
with an eloquence nearer to the understanding
of these subtle confusing allusions.
The secret is partner with none
but the knower of the secret:
in the skeptic's ear
the secret is no secret at all.
 
Talking of love, the love of your partner has to elude you and you should strive to fathom what eludes you which will initiate wonderful experiences. I believe that is the essence of ultimate love.
 
Talking of love, the love of your partner has to elude you and you should strive to fathom what eludes you which will initiate wonderful experiences. I believe that is the essence of ultimate love.

"Be Whole and Nothing" by Hakim Sanai

When the path ignites a soul,
there's no remaining in place.

The foot touches ground,
but not for long.

The way where love tells its secret
stays always in motion,
and there is no you there, and no reason.

The rider urges his horse to gallop,
and so doing, throws himself
under the flying hooves.

In love-unity there's no old or new.
Everything is nothing.
God alone is.

For lovers the phenomena-veil is very transparent,
and the delicate tracings on it cannot
be explained with language.

Clouds burn off as the sun rises,
and the love-world floods with light.

But cloud-water can be obscuring,
as well as useful.

There is an affection that covers the glory,
rather than dissolving into it.

It's a subtle difference,
like the change in Persian
from the word "friendship"
to the word "work."

That happens with just a dot
above or below the third letter.

There is a seeing of the beauty
of union that doesn't actively work
for the inner conversation.

Your hand and feet must move,
as a stream streams, working
as its Self, to get to the ocean.
Then there's no more mention
of the search.

Being famous, or being a disgrace,
who's ahead or behind, these considerations
are rocks and clogged places
that slow you. Be as naked as a wheat grain
out of its husk and sleek as Adam.

Don't ask for anything other
than the presence.

Don't speak of a "you"
apart from That.

A full container cannot be more full.
Be whole, and nothing.
 
In the hide and seek game of finding the truths it is the feminine aspect or maya that needs to be unveiled or understood. We can say that male energy constantly tries to fathom the feminine which needs to be pieced together to figure out the elusive spark.
 
In the hide and seek game of finding the truths it is the feminine aspect or maya that needs to be unveiled or understood. We can say that male energy constantly tries to fathom the feminine which needs to be pieced together to figure out the elusive spark.
Why not just look as everything as the Source instead of dividing it into masculine and feminine?
At one point we would surely would not want to divide and rule God anymore into various aspects.
This is where Non dualism should become Monotheism.
 
Why not just look as everything as the Source instead of dividing it into masculine and feminine?
At one point we would surely would not want to divide and rule God anymore into various aspects.
This is where Non dualism should become Monotheism.
Dear Renuka,

We need to analyse and then understand. That is how human mind works. Nondualism is fine. But how do we make sense of what's around us and progress?
 
Dear Renuka,

We need to analyse and then understand. That is how human mind works. Nondualism is fine. But how do we make sense of what's around us and progress?
Actually there is no need to " analyse".
Analysis holds good only for wordly knowledge of the physical world and physical sciences.

Reality is not about analysis and science but its about annihilation and signs.

In other words..it's just ending the need to question, analyse, find our way.
Even the question " Who am I" itself is the work of the human mind.
Even that has to be dropped.

The closest description to the state of annihilation and surrender I can think of is the feeling of love of a dog for its master.

The dog doesnt analyse, it just surrenders to its master.

I didnt choose mother's love as an example because mothers have a genetic wiring to love their offsprings and are known to ill treat step children at times.
So they mostly love their own blood.
But a dog has no blood ties yet it surrenders to its master.

Its that surrender where our human minds totally shuts off and all thoughts cease and then the experience unfolds step by step.

If we start questioning we lose the experience.


So finally Bhakti marg wins hands down because guidance comes from the Grace of God and not from analysis and questioning.
 
Actually there is no need to " analyse".
Analysis holds good only for wordly knowledge of the physical world and physical sciences.

Reality is not about analysis and science but its about annihilation and signs.

In other words..it's just ending the need to question, analyse, find our way.
Even the question " Who am I" itself is the work of the human mind.
Even that has to be dropped.

The closest description to the state of annihilation and surrender I can think of is the feeling of love of a dog for its master.

The dog doesnt analyse, it just surrenders to its master.

I didnt choose mother's love as an example because mothers have a genetic wiring to love their offsprings and are known to ill treat step children at times.
So they mostly love their own blood.
But a dog has no blood ties yet it surrenders to its master.

Its that surrender where our human minds totally shuts off and all thoughts cease and then the experience unfolds step by step.

If we start questioning we lose the experience.


So finally Bhakti marg wins hands down because guidance comes from the Grace of God and not from analysis and questioning.
Dear Renuka,

Genuine surrender seems to happen when one is very close to God. Till then I believe there is a shallowness. The reason is ego hinders you in so many ways. A dog has no ego and ofcourse does not analyze. I agree it exhibits a high quality feeling which many humans are not able to exhibit because of ego.
 
For sheer quality mother's love is unbeatable. A dog's love of a master is akin to a child's love for its mother in the sense of the master being a care taker. A different version only.
 
For sheer quality mother's love is unbeatable. A dog's love of a master is akin to a child's love for its mother in the sense of the master being a care taker. A different version only.
May be " Mother's love" isnt gender specific nor it requires one to go through a pregnancy.

Mother's love is a capability that anyone can have be it even a male or a woman who didnt go through pregnancy.

Just going through a pregnancy and bringing up a child isnt always the same as having Mother's love.

I have met many mothers who are partial, they prefer some children over the other.
Most Indian mothers love their sons more.
Then some other women love their own children more than their step children.

This only shows its mamaiva( mine and thine)..its just another twist to the jaws of ahamkara.
 
May be " Mother's love" isnt gender specific nor it requires one to go through a pregnancy.

Mother's love is a capability that anyone can have be it even a male or a woman who didnt go through pregnancy.

Just going through a pregnancy and bringing up a child isnt always the same as having Mother's love.

I have met many mothers who are partial, they prefer some children over the other.
Most Indian mothers love their sons more.
Then some other women love their own children more than their step children.

This only shows its mamaiva( mine and thine)..its just another twist to the jaws of ahamkara.
Yes it is the gold standard of love. Other love ofcourse can live up to it. The love between partners is best when the love of wife is like that of a mother.
 
Yes it is the gold standard of love. Other love ofcourse can live up to it. The love between partners is best when the love of wife is like that of a mother.
Not too sure if its the Gold standard because its a very high degree of attachment and also its the most binding with high mamaiva.

So is it a boon or a bane?

I have never compared love of a spouse with the love of a parent.
Its like comparing direct current and alternating current, both will give you a jolt if desires of either party is not met.

Technically we give names to all our mind game based desires.

When the true inward spiritual journey starts the attachment to parents, spouse, kids,mama and machan would wane only to be replaced with the Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam effect that all of us belong to the same Source if we look beyond relationships.

Then the "Ayam nijah paroveti" mode of thinking with two outlooks with regard to ourselves and others would cease to exists.
 
Dear Renuka,

Few people can be as approval of spiritual mindset as I am. But still as we are in a mundane reality we need to abide by its rules and laws and play it's game though the real goal is spiritual elevation. Universal love should be in the mind but the mechanics for it are in the mundane reality. Our reality is not really that mundane. It is as spiritual as spiritual reality can get but cloaked for only the discerning to discern it.
 

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