Is there a universal morality?

[Suresh ente sure]

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Dear Suresh ji,
We humans are the most disconnected from reality.
Animals are not the dumb ones.
We are the dumbest of all creatures.no

I not campaigning for forced change. Things happen perfectly under natural course and at the right time. I just would want to put forth my perspective

Thanks ji .

 

[Suresh ente sure]

Dear Suresh ji,
We humans are the most disconnected from reality.
Animals are not the dumb ones.
We are the dumbest of all creatures.

Renuka ji , The lion still in same state since its ancestor roamed earth but we evolved very much from time beginning bcos our intelligence.if not we still roaming in caves snd jungle

 

[sravna]

Renuka ji , The lion still in same state since its ancestor roamed earth but we evolved very much from time beginning bcos our intelligence.if not we still roaming in caves snd jungle

Dear Suresh

Kindly consider evolution is in the mind. I want an honest answer from you Suresh ji. Consider the current state of the world. Do you think it reflects evolution?

 

[thebigthinkg]

There are zillions of (divine) 'forces' in the Universe that drive its evolution, beyond any power of any human being. If these forces are 'gods', then there are zillions of gods.

There are 'basics' (puruSa) that underlies this evolution like energy, mass, consciousness, the evolutionary process itself. We can include our 'conscience' or manas-sAksi also. We attribute different effects to a specific cause called 'energy' or 'mass' or 'consciousness' or 'evolutionary process'. Include manas-sAksi or conscience in it, there are atleast five basics for evolution. If these puruSas are gods, then there are atleast five gods.

Then there is five forms of prakRti that are the evolute, which are land, air, fire, water and space. If these bhutas are gods, then there are five gods.

For human beings, there are parents who originate, teachers who guide etc in their evolution apart from the pancha-bhutas. These are gods. Then there are strangers, friends, relatives who don the form of god evolving us from time to time.

Thus there are gods everywhere in every form, like the salt in ocean water, dissolved inside all.

Detachment is the way to realize in our self..?? Maybe..??

 

[Suresh ente sure]

Dear Suresh

Kindly consider evolution is in the mind. I want an honest answer from you Suresh ji. Consider the current state of the world. Do you think it reflects evolution?

Sravana ji. Evolution aslo mean progress although we are thousand miles apart still can exchange our view due to technology. We should blame technology or evolution because of our shortcoming

 

[sravna]

Sravana ji. Evolution aslo mean progress although we are thousand miles apart still can exchange our view due to technology. We should blame technology or evolution because of our shortcoming

Dear Suresh,

The fact that my approach is spiritual does not mean I will oppose science. I understand it has contributed to the quality of life. But in that let us not degrade or dismiss spirituality. They can coexist.

 

[Suresh ente sure]

Dear Suresh,

The fact that my approach is spiritual does not mean I will oppose science. I understand it has contributed to the quality of life. But in that let us not degrade or dismiss spirituality. They can coexist.

Yes , i agree it is your right believe spiritualism as i have right to disbelieve spiritualism

 

[sravna]

Yes as long as the disbelief is

Yes , i agree it is your right believe spiritualism as i have right to disbelieve spiritualism

Yes as long as the disbelief is within the confines of the mind it is peaceful and acceptable. The moment you start openly attacking because of the disbelief, you should brace yourself for a fight.

 

[renuka]

Yes , i agree it is your right believe spiritualism as i have right to disbelieve spiritualism

Agreed...so in a way to each to its own.
But the question is why does every human culture has some form of spiritual practice.
What drove them to it?

 

[Suresh ente sure]

Agreed...so in a way to each to its own.
But the question is why does every human culture has some form of spiritual practice.
What drove them to it?

Osho explained it very well .

 

[sravna]

Have you ever seen a spiritual person degrade science in a way that science supporting people degrade spirituality? The mutual respect is lacking.

 

[Suresh ente sure]

Have you ever seen a spiritual person degrade science in a way that science supporting people degrade spirituality? The mutual respect is lacking.

It is not degrading ji. Science people alway want proof to support spiritualism

 

[sravna]

It is not degrading ji. Science people alway want proof to support spiritualism

Dear Suresh,

You have to understand that science should not judge other disciplines by its own yardsticks. Spirituality is more about personal and subjective experiences which only self can feel. Personally I can vouch for it and so can innumerable others. Anyone can if they have the inclination and put in efforts.

 

[sravna]

People are under the impression progress is happening only because of science and technology. I agree that they contribute to progress. That is only one part of progress. An equally or more important progress is the progress of self which is the domain of spirituality. Why emphasize only the material progress when both material and mental progress are important.

As a matter of fact spiritual energy can be used for techology like inventions with much better experience.

 

[sravna]

So a society needs both science and spirituality. It need not be one or the other. These by themselves are very useful for the upliftment of society though some practitioners give them a bad name. Science has been going more scot free with wrong committed by its practitioners because it hides itself under the cloak of rationality and the self approved method it follows.

 

[sravna]

As a matter of fact I think the methods of science are great. What you get out of the methods is the real objective. You get it out of external reality and the process to accomplish it which is derived from human thinking.

The methods of spirituality may not be acceptable to scientists but the inner reality of spiritual energy is capable of delivering natural and impeccable results. It is the ultimate standard towards which the products from external reality will move to.

An example from the field of medicine. I believe the remedies offered by allopathy are a far far cry from what spiritual energy can do. In this case the difference is glaring but the same gap exists in all other areas as of now. I do agree though that science will constantly progress.

 

[teshil]

Universe operates on a set of dharma (laws as I view it) and rta (cycles/repetitions as I view it).

For eg. Love/Bonding and Hate/Repulsion is facilitated by Electromagnetic interaction in matter forms and hormones in biological beings. These facilitate divergence/diversity and convergence/unity in diversity, which furthers the evolutionary progress (which is what is mAyA in my view). These are examples of laws/dharma.

Same way birth/creation, growth/movement and death/dissolution are examples of rta/cycles in matter forms and biological beings that help these forms spread across space and evolve further.

Biological beings (those with consciousness/life), even from very primitive beings, adapt around these laws/dharma and cycles/rta of the Universe and evolve. In that process they evolve their own adaptation to dharma/rta and pass it on through the evolutionary chain of mAyA to higher order beings.

Human beings at the top of this consciousness chain have thus evolved their adaptation to dharma/rta, spawning over millions of years (though their current form may be just tens of thousands of years) creating their own social laws as they group together and evolve, like any higher order matter form or being.

But societies themselves are made of diverse forms of consciousness thus needing adaptation of one another to not just natural dharma/rta, but to the societies themselves. Every society is a Universe of its own, thus facilitating different forms of adaptation. These adaptations produce a continuous churn in the societies.

Ethics/Morality is the cream/butter produced out of this churn. They are the 'result' or 'indications' of the churn that's happening below caused due to adaptation to local as well as universal dharma/rta. These adaptations produce a churn which produces the cream. Hence ethics/morality keeps changing faster than the adaptation to local/universal dharma/rta itself. Hence they are neither the Universal dharma/rta nor the local dharma/rta.

What's ethical/moral few decades back will not be ethical/moral now and vice-versa also. Few decades back it's largely ethical/moral to police a woman for the way she dresses. Now it's largely no longer so. It was ethical/moral to look at woman primarily as a 'mother' few decades back. Now the ethics/morality tends to more look at her as another human being and not put extra social pressures. There are millions of examples like this.

Not that society has changed that much in between. But the churn that different people produce due to their local adaptation has changed the way ethics/moral is defined.

We often mistake this cream/butter ethics/morality as the underlying dharma/rta or their adaptation itself.

This is my understanding, as of now.

An interesting insight! Thank you!

 

[teshil]

Is there an universal immorality? Curious to know.

Is there an universal immorality? Curious to know.

Yes. At the simplest level, there are morals that are universal, e.g. honesty, integrity, reliability, love (yes) and support for seeking knowledge. Whether such morals are extended across to other individuals or groups with another identity is debatable and the answer is obvious. When it comes to practising universal morals, flexing or plying the logic comes into play for whatever reason, e.g. various prejudices, perceptional bias etc. In fact, the reason is the sharpest tool humanity has to ply, flex and erode moral practice.

Having said all that, the practice of universal morals, or the lack of it, is tightly linked to the innate and intrinsic need for survival instincts developed from evolution. In most instances, what is right and wrong changes dramatically when survival becomes a question.

 

[renuka]

As a matter of fact I think the methods of science are great. What you get out of the methods is the real objective. You get it out of external reality and the process to accomplish it which is derived from human thinking.

The methods of spirituality may not be acceptable to scientists but the inner reality of spiritual energy is capable of delivering natural and impeccable results. It is the ultimate standard towards which the products from external reality will move to.

An example from the field of medicine. I believe the remedies offered by allopathy are a far far cry from what spiritual energy can do. In this case the difference is glaring but the same gap exists in all other areas as of now. I do agree though that science will constantly progress.

Coming to medicine.
To a great extent we treat the physical body.
But at the same time the state of mind is also taken into account.

We usually advise patients to have both healthy body and mind.

Coming to spiritual energy healing, we have to be realistic.

Not many people can actually do spiritual healing.
During the pandemic spiritual healers could not much or anything at all.

If you ask me a true healing is not about just spiritual healing but its about maintaining homeostasis both physically and spiritually.

Honestly I mostly find your posts anti science and pro spirituality.
And I find posts of some others pro science and anti spirituality.

How different are you both?
No different.
Both sit at the opposite end of the same spectrum.

Why choose to be sitting at only one end?
Why not be in the middle where one understands that science is both seen and unseen.

The physical sciences deals with the physical seen which is evidence based and spirituality deals with subtle sciences which is revelation based.

For eg a lot of doctors do rely on inner voice too.
Sometimes when we do not suspect a disease but somehow the patient suggests something else, going by evidence it is not the disease but we do stop to think " what if God is trying to relay a message to investigate on something that doesnt seem to show up?what if its hidden"
Then the doctor does go about investigating it and many a times some hidden diseases show up.

This is what I am saying that one has to explore all options.

Sravna, having said all that why is it rather hard for you to seek balance of both the physical and spiritual?

God Himself takes upon a physical body as an Avatar.
Going by your logic of spiritual being better than physical, shouldnt God not take a physical body and do all auto correct in spiritual mode?

Reason is because nothing is higher or lower.
Both the physical and spiritual are one unit.
Its only we who choose to divide it.

 

[sravna]

Renuka,

Yes I am pro spirituality as spirituality in its ultimate sense embraces science. What then is nirguna brahman? Both saguna brahman and maya in perfect coexistence as to project unity.

When science as in its present stage still is utter inchoate cannot question the intelligence, wisdom and truth in spirituality. I would say science as it is still in pre kg where as spirituality is an accomplished nobel prize winner compared to it. Science still has light years to go before it can rub shoulders with spirituality proper. But it will atleast in the mundane reality. That indeed is the will of the creator I believe.

 

[sravna]

One common misconception about spirituality. That is, it is about peace and is sattvic. It is actually about maintaining and establishing righteousness at any cost. Lord Narasimha is a patent example and Lord Krishna is another strong example. The first used brute force and the second used deceit both not typically associated with spirituality.

 

[renuka]

One common misconception about spirituality. That is, it is about peace and is sattvic. It is actually about maintaining and establishing righteousness at any cost. Lord Narasimha is a patent example and Lord Krishna is another strong example. The first used brute force and the second used deceit both not typically associated with spirituality.

Lord Narasimha didnt use brute force.
He was got Hiranyakashipu on technical grounds.
It was Hiranyakashipu which put conditions and all Lord Narasimha did was win the case totally fair and square.

Lord Krishna did not use deceit.
Its all within Dharma ..just that we do not know the full picture.

I had typed before that in the slaying of Dronacharya it seemed as if Lord Krishna made Yudhisthira lie a little.
But it was not what we think.
Krishna made sure Dronacharya died in samadhi meditation and not as a fallen warrior because Drona was a Brahmin by birth.

So the whole scenario was a leela for the greater good of Drona.

Even in the Quran there are verses where Moses gets into some problems because he feels the actions of a saint Khidir seemed violent and unfair.
For eg Khidir drills a small hole in a perfect ship of some good people.
Moses gets angry.


Then Khidir goes to a village and the people there were very bad and rude.
Khidir sees a damaged wall and proceeds to rebuild it.
Moses gets angry again saying " why rebuild the wall? These people are so bad..why help them?..you damaged the ship of the good people and here you rebuild a wall of bad people?"


Khidir explains why he damaged the ship.. the King of the land was a tryrant and was planning to seize the ship of the good people..so by damaging it a little the King wont seize it and the damage was not serious hence the good people can repair it and still have their ship.

In the case of rebuilding the wall, Khidir explained that in the village of the bad people, a good man lived there and recently died.
He had buried some wealth below the wall area.
The man had 2 small sons and right now if the wall breaks down the bad village people would steal it.
So Khidir rebuild the wall to make it last long enough till the 2 orphans kids would grow up and eventually they would find the buried wealth.

Likewise Sravna, we do not know deeper meanings of Lord Krishna's actions.
To our human mind it might seem like deceit but the Lord is never Adharmic.
We just dont get the full picture.

 

[sravna]

I will modify what I said in the previous post. Divinity itself operates at different levels or as you say there are deeper imports.

I stand corrected.