komanam / kaupeenam panchakacham brahmacharyam

[prasad1]

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Renuka M'am,

Good analysis.

But, as the older generations respected privacy, the women had baths/cleaning chores after all the other members finished using the backyards (doors). Plus, they were all aradhakAs, who perform daily religious karmAs with sincerity. Plus, according to Smriti (parasara), one doing aradhana to the deities must be clean, they themselves had to take bath if they get unclean during the process - touching the body/hairs, touching other unbathed members etc. So, to avoid all these hazzles, hygiene environments were maintained. Plus, women stayed as home-makers, as only sevice to the Lord was the supreme goal for them. All hardsips were considered part of nature and service to the deities.

We have parted our ways, so we cant blame them!

Even if there are bathrooms (in India without water!) and napkins (polluting the world!) freely available, still they had to reman separate. Those new tools are for convenience, that doesnot rule out the concept of asuddhi (bad-energy) and not obstruct the worship. There are a lineage of iyengers, the men cook for the deities and do all worship. But olden days of joint-family, mother-in-law would cook, these daughter-in-law would rest, but now in single families where men dont cook, women had to cook even during those unhygienic days. May be they should do punyahavachanam. In foreign countries, where there are carpet-floors, everything is impure!

How about EQUALITY?! Those days, women should rest. Brahmin/Any men had to be taught cooking and house-hold chores! Hari-bOl!

Sir, we are 21st century.
Other than few TB stuck in TN do you think any one cares for such view? Look around the world, these are outdated views, things have changed. We do not ride bullock carts we arrive in BMW's.
If Amma had periods (?) would you care to tell her your views on how to do things? You are imposing your views on gullible or suppressed women.

 

[sangom]

Dear Govinda ji,

Technically there is no such thing as negative or positive energy.

I do not see how positive and negative get into the picture.

For all practical purposes the so called Asuddhi of a women is the shed endometrial lining of the uterus which is formed every month in body's preparation for implantation of a zygote...that endometrial lining is the cradle on which the fertilized zygote lies down to develop into a baby.
it is this endometrial lining the embryo lies on.

The endometrial lining is rich with blood and nutrients to cradle an embryo and this gets discarded every month as menstrual flow if a woman is not pregnant.

So if endometrial lining is impure to start with..I guess all of us started off life as impure and are walking personifications of impurity.


There is nothing which can obstruct worship if we Gatistvam Gatistvam to God:




Only an impure mind can obstruct worship.

Smt. Renuka,

What I find is that even a person like you, who accepts the existence of paranormal entities (PNE) etc., do not subscribe to the age-old beliefs that this very same endometrial lining is a thing of great importance when it comes to such paranormal entities.

The old-timers were somewhat consistent in their beliefs. So, all new births were uniformly held to be impure and both the newly born child as well as the mother who gave birth are considered as "impure" for a period of 10 days even by some of the Dalit categories of North India. There is a ritual bath for both the mother and the child on the 11th. morning and depending upon castes, the purohit/ojha/magician (I forget the usual name for such tribal person now.) comes to the house and purifies it of all paranormal entities.

Among the nairs of Kerala, even this 11th. day ceremony is not aufficient. On the 28th. day they have a "kAppu keTTu" (rakshA bandhan is the meaning) for the child and only after that the mother and child can freely move within the house and touch the cooking utensils, clothes etc.

Just as the endometrial lining is rich with blood and nutrients to cradle an embryo, so is its developed state as placenta. Possibly there may be some logic in the orthodox belief that some paranormal entities get sustenance from the placenta and so such PNEs flock to the places where a delivery/abortion takes place, and the aborted foetus is an important item in many tantric functions to attract (AvAhanam) of haunting PNEs from the bodies of haunted victims etc. These are also used in the reverse way to attract PNEs on to the foetuses/placenta and then direct/launch them onto some victims with clear instructions, by means of appropriate mantras, on to identified enemies (black magic, as we call it).

It was therefore the custom to ensure that the placenta (of even cows which calved in the house)/aborted foetus was not just discarded but carefully interred.

A dwija gets further purified by the upanayanam and samAvartanam ceremonies; that at least was the belief according to the brahministic texts. It was this level of purity that was sought to be maintained by means of several dos & donts.

Just for information please.

 

[amala]

Dear Kunjs,

But some Non Brahmins too practiced isolation during menses...I remember my dad' side in their house..menstruating females were not given free access to the whole house..there was a room where those with menses should sleep and eat and remain.

But they were allowed to take baths and their clothes can not be washed with the clothes of others and they had separate pails for clothes worn during menses.

Those who were menstruating were not allowed to cook too.

I used to think they were nuts and my mum was shocked to know this practice when she got married and entered her in laws house.

But now after many years...no one follows all these anymore.

I'm shocked about not being allowed to bathe or brush teeth, but this isolation I think was very good for the women. Here is why. They have to toil like dogs and donkeys cooking and cleaning and doing hard physical housework. This is the only time they can have some peace, solitude and well earned/deserved rest. So why not? And not being allowed to cook is great if you ask me. Modern women like my mum had to do all these, shopping, banking, working, cooking despite going through all this, so I honestly feel in a way those ladies being allowed to rest whether in the name of custom or whatever was a good thing.

 

[kunjuppu]

.... It was this level of purity that was sought to be maintained by means of several dos & donts.

.

dear sangom,

i have read in several places this arguement, that all ancient rituals were based on deep thought and science. like yourself in this post.

somehow, i think, we are thinking backwards here, ie trying to find scientific justifcation, wherever we can sneak in one, while the large mass of idiosyncratic practices, we quietly refuse to explain, or cast away as meaningless.

i think, and this was told to me by a dalit christian, who i am sure, had ulterior motives - that the whole concept of purity in vedic culture, is based on ritual purity. a polluted ganga is ok as long as the water is from ganga. we can live in filthi but punyajalam purifies the theendal of impurity through menses or other stuff.

except, when it came to dalits, no punyajalam could purify them enough for a brahmin to view him or her. this observation is based on my gut feeling, on our practices and beliefs. in fact all castes carry within them, some functional ritual purification process, except the one at the bottom, whom they heap their garbage, all in the name of varna.

it may be a good idea, for all of us tambrams, to identify one dality, give him or her a hug, and invite them to our home for dinner, and serve them in the same plates that we use for the brahmins. no banana leaves, but home plates we use for family. to me that is a good purification process.

 

[kunjuppu]

I'm shocked about not being allowed to bathe or brush teeth, but this isolation I think was very good for the women. Here is why. They have to toil like dogs and donkeys cooking and cleaning and doing hard physical housework. This is the only time they can have some peace, solitude and well earned/deserved rest. So why not? And not being allowed to cook is great if you ask me. Modern women like my mum had to do all these, shopping, banking, working, cooking despite going through all this, so I honestly feel in a way those ladies being allowed to rest whether in the name of custom or whatever was a good thing.

sorry amala, i tend to disagree. nowhere in our literature or tradition, has there been consistent mentions about care of women re concern for their health and welfare. we tend to deify our womenfolk, but that only gave us licence to use them indiscriminately.

this whole concept of 'rest during those days' is an explanation of today's apologists, whom i think, are unwilling to call a spade a spade.

i think, the process of menstruation, jarred the concept of ritual purity of the vedic scholars, manu and the brahmins. women have other effluents unique to their gender, but nowhere has this been decried as non-madi. only the blood and process of maintaining. had they really cared about women's welfare, they would not have condemned her to the back of the house in the cow shed to clean up the cows, make varatti and sleep in the hay, denied her bath, fresh food and water and clean clothes. please look carefully.

i for one, am sooooo relieved, that mrs K and my daughter are treated like normal humans during all 30 days of the month. thank god for living in this age and in this country.

 

[friend_truth18]

Dear All,

Nice to see the discussions healthier and advisable , thanks for your inputs. further komanam should be hanging in front and back side too ?. also as per our forum renuka and friends, old dhoti is torn but dont know the length and width.
Awaiting your reply

Karthik

 

[sangom]

dear sangom,

i have read in several places this arguement, that all ancient rituals were based on deep thought and science. like yourself in this post.

somehow, i think, we are thinking backwards here, ie trying to find scientific justifcation, wherever we can sneak in one, while the large mass of idiosyncratic practices, we quietly refuse to explain, or cast away as meaningless.

dear K,

If you read my post again, probably you will realize that I have written to Smt. Renuka, who believes in the existence of paranormal entities. I don't know if you do. My only point was "when you believe in PNEs, why not go the whole hog of those ancient belief system and acknowledge somethings else connected with that very item also?" But this aspect might not have come out adequately clearly due to my language command.

Personally I have not had any PNE experience so far, nor do I believe except in hygienic disposal of placenta, aborted foetuses, etc., without creating pollution.

i think, and this was told to me by a dalit christian, who i am sure, had ulterior motives - that the whole concept of purity in vedic culture, is based on ritual purity. a polluted ganga is ok as long as the water is from ganga. we can live in filthi but punyajalam purifies the theendal of impurity through menses or other stuff.

except, when it came to dalits, no punyajalam could purify them enough for a brahmin to view him or her. this observation is based on my gut feeling, on our practices and beliefs. in fact all castes carry within them, some functional ritual purification process, except the one at the bottom, whom they heap their garbage, all in the name of varna.

it may be a good idea, for all of us tambrams, to identify one dality, give him or her a hug, and invite them to our home for dinner, and serve them in the same plates that we use for the brahmins. no banana leaves, but home plates we use for family. to me that is a good purification process.

Dear Kunjuppu, what you say (identify one dality, give him or her a hug, and invite them to our home for dinner, and serve them in the same plates that we use for the brahmins. no banana leaves, but home plates we use for family. to me that is a good purification process.) is tantamount only to a show-type gesture used by most of our politicians for long. Even if my son comes after doing some work which makes him and his dress grimy/dirty, probably we will give him a cup of tea/coffee first, ask him to take a bath and wear new dress and then come for meals. Subject to the same clauses, I think most tabras today will have any qualms about eating side by side with anyone, whether dalit, muslim or whatever. And that is what we see day in and day out in almost all hotels today. Only thing may be that tabras, by and large, may not visit the NV hotels. But when compelled by circumstances I have eaten along with muslims (all farm workers BTW) in a predominantly muslim center, but I avoided the NV items. (I could get only cooked rice, salt, some kind of buttermilk and one vegetable; the cuuries were of mutton and another one-fish curry!!) Simple showy gestures like the one you suggest will just stop with that.

But your very suggestion gives me the impression that you are carrying archaeological memories of tabra life back in India. It is time that you come and tour around and see for yourself.

 

[sangom]

sorry amala, i tend to disagree. nowhere in our literature or tradition, has there been consistent mentions about care of women re concern for their health and welfare. we tend to deify our womenfolk, but that only gave us licence to use them indiscriminately.

this whole concept of 'rest during those days' is an explanation of today's apologists, whom i think, are unwilling to call a spade a spade.

i think, the process of menstruation, jarred the concept of ritual purity of the vedic scholars, manu and the brahmins. women have other effluents unique to their gender, but nowhere has this been decried as non-madi. only the blood and process of maintaining. had they really cared about women's welfare, they would not have condemned her to the back of the house in the cow shed to clean up the cows, make varatti and sleep in the hay, denied her bath, fresh food and water and clean clothes. please look carefully.

i for one, am sooooo relieved, that mrs K and my daughter are treated like normal humans during all 30 days of the month. thank god for living in this age and in this country.

Here again, Shri Kunjuppu, you seem to be carrying some memories from your childhood days in Vadakara/Palghat. Either you have become completely out of touch with the developments in India (can I say, your native country?) or you are purposely pretending non-acquaintance.

Those days of segregation etc., have completely gone and even bath and everything else is allowed. Only the women themselves feel inadequate to go into the pooja room and light the lamp or take part in religious rites like srAddham, special poojas, bhagavati seva, samArAdhana, etc. (but, may be in due course all these hesitations also will vanish and it may then be said that doing poojas on menstruating days is special favourite of such-and-such deity (தூரமனாள் பூஜை ரொம்ப விசேஷம்!), etc. Only, the avant garde like you should take a more active interest in the matter, I would say

 

[prasad1]

I'm shocked about not being allowed to bathe or brush teeth, but this isolation I think was very good for the women. Here is why. They have to toil like dogs and donkeys cooking and cleaning and doing hard physical housework. This is the only time they can have some peace, solitude and well earned/deserved rest. So why not? And not being allowed to cook is great if you ask me. Modern women like my mum had to do all these, shopping, banking, working, cooking despite going through all this, so I honestly feel in a way those ladies being allowed to rest whether in the name of custom or whatever was a good thing.

Amalaji,
There was a reason, and because of it a custom was born. No body argues with an ancient practice.
Now the reason has vanished, but women still have to practice that custom? In Metro cities the accommodations for average household is rather small. In a 1room unit these kind of segregation is not possible, they have kitchen, poojaroom, bedroom all in one. In colder climate outside of TN women are subjected to sleep in unheated Garage, is that what you think they deserve. I am sorry no one should be subjected to inhuman condition. If the women wants the rest by all means she should have it, should she be forced, by no-means.

Will the men or MIL who foces their womenfolks to suffer, would go out and prostrate to a Amma in "periods" without blinking an eye. The same people would accept Money from a teller in "periods". So again it is more of control than medical requirements.

 

[wrongan]

Respected knowledgeable members after going through all posts I feel that you all laugh at persons who traveled in bullock carts in those days when there were no other means.But every one will come to your side if you laugh at people prefer carts even on these days of rapid transportation.In my opinion all of you have for gotten the passing of time.If these are practiced even today may be they are at fault.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear sangom,

re #128, 129,

i was reply to amala, renuka, re what happened. not what is happening now. even you agree, 100 years ago, women during periods were treated badly. amala could not believe the deprivation of bath, clothes and fresh food. that is all i am saying, that it was prejudice, and not out of enlightenment for the care of the woman and giving her a rest.

frankly, we did not have our sensitivities that sharp. we used our women like any other chattel. the man overlorded.

things have changed now. and for the better. i am with you there.

re dalits, why not? i dont know if you socialize with any dalit. i still dont know one. i am ashamed to say that, but somehow it does not work that way. i know mudaliars, pillais, naidus, naickers, reddiars, nadars..all middle castes. but no dalit. it is my hope to make friend with one, and have him share the same plate and food, as me, in my home. simple desire. that is all.

if i get to meet a scavenger, i will hold his hands and touch my eyes, i will touch his feet. because of what i percieve as crimes committed by my ancestors (unknown) to him and his ancestors(unknown). it is a personal thing. that is all.

 

[amala]

You're going to Chennai soon K sir right? You will surely get your wish if you choose to follow through wrt scavengers

 

[renuka]

Smt. Renuka,

What I find is that even a person like you, who accepts the existence of paranormal entities (PNE) etc., do not subscribe to the age-old beliefs that this very same endometrial lining is a thing of great importance when it comes to such paranormal entities.

The old-timers were somewhat consistent in their beliefs. So, all new births were uniformly held to be impure and both the newly born child as well as the mother who gave birth are considered as "impure" for a period of 10 days even by some of the Dalit categories of North India. There is a ritual bath for both the mother and the child on the 11th. morning and depending upon castes, the purohit/ojha/magician (I forget the usual name for such tribal person now.) comes to the house and purifies it of all paranormal entities.

Among the nairs of Kerala, even this 11th. day ceremony is not aufficient. On the 28th. day they have a "kAppu keTTu" (rakshA bandhan is the meaning) for the child and only after that the mother and child can freely move within the house and touch the cooking utensils, clothes etc.

Just as the endometrial lining is rich with blood and nutrients to cradle an embryo, so is its developed state as placenta. Possibly there may be some logic in the orthodox belief that some paranormal entities get sustenance from the placenta and so such PNEs flock to the places where a delivery/abortion takes place, and the aborted foetus is an important item in many tantric functions to attract (AvAhanam) of haunting PNEs from the bodies of haunted victims etc. These are also used in the reverse way to attract PNEs on to the foetuses/placenta and then direct/launch them onto some victims with clear instructions, by means of appropriate mantras, on to identified enemies (black magic, as we call it).

It was therefore the custom to ensure that the placenta (of even cows which calved in the house)/aborted foetus was not just discarded but carefully interred.

A dwija gets further purified by the upanayanam and samAvartanam ceremonies; that at least was the belief according to the brahministic texts. It was this level of purity that was sought to be maintained by means of several dos & donts.

Just for information please.

Dear Sangom ji,

I am aware of about this fact about placenta and the paranormal etc...in fact Muslims take this very seriously and they have a purification ritual for the placenta and it has to be washed till all blood is gone and that given a burial with burial rites of the dead.

But I do not consider the time frame after childbirth as "impure"..may be our ancestors have a reason for this.

Ok post partum (post delivery) is a very delicate time where both mother and baby could be fall sick easily and it is better that both are kept away from general public to avoid visitors from visiting mum and child for the own good of the child.

In the less medically advanced days...many mothers succumbed to blood loss and also post partum infections..so it is always better to keep mum and baby confined so that visitors do not bring germs and infection to them.

Infant mortality too was high especially the water borne disease and Diphteria/Pertusis/Polio virus can strike within the 1st year of life..so it was always better to take some precaution.

I am not saying that ancient practices were merely superstitions but there is a logical explanation for every rule..it is just that it was called 'impure' to instill fear so that the rule will be followed.

But in these days of better hygiene and living standards.. a post partum women might not need to restrict herself too much.

And the 28 day reason you have given most probably most woman get back their strength after 1 month cos lots of women used to be aneamic before but not so now with improved standards of nutrition...so the rest is a much needed one.

When I delivered I did not follow any confinement or any specific ritual bath purification cos I was taking bath 2x daily and also I was up and around the house doing stuff like preparing some food for myself and by the 2nd week I was driving around and going to the mall and also started back some exercises.


Last but not the least..Paranormal entities at times just feed off a person's energy be it male or female.
Anything can provide energy substrate for them..including the fluid of a male.

 

[tks]

I'm shocked about not being allowed to bathe or brush teeth, but this isolation I think was very good for the women. Here is why. They have to toil like dogs and donkeys cooking and cleaning and doing hard physical housework. This is the only time they can have some peace, solitude and well earned/deserved rest. So why not? And not being allowed to cook is great if you ask me. Modern women like my mum had to do all these, shopping, banking, working, cooking despite going through all this, so I honestly feel in a way those ladies being allowed to rest whether in the name of custom or whatever was a good thing.

Hi Amala

Actually when I was very young I was given this explanation that women needed rest time every so often in a month. I do not remember anyone not brushing their teeth (actually no brush but using fingers those days). They were seemingly well taken care of from what little I remember.

I guess how someone was treated depended on the household. I tend to think most such customs had at least some good intentions. You are astute in my view to recognize that.

I am sure in some families women were mistreated . But in my life experience I tend to think women were treated more with respect those days than women in the west even today. I say this because society in the west got 'advanced' in how to feed on insecurities of human beings to market large number of products serving a billion dollar industry. The entire cosmetic industry and other 'look better' industry is booming because there are constant put downs. This westernization has hit India also especially those in upper middle class and those aspiring to be in upper middle class.

Mamis that I knew those days had at most a Ponds cream that they put on their face on special occasion. They did not care about how they looked and did not feel the pressure and manipulation to present themselves as someone they are not.

When I came to USA decades ago as a student I was told by a senior student about using this thing called deodorant. He told me that I must use this spray in my underarm to keep clean. I never thought myself or anyone smelled when I was growing up if they bathed every day.

Later I discovered how many young girls had very low self esteem and spent a lot of money just to conform to some look that media had decided is right.

I really think that in families I knew women are and were always held with respect and treated equally much more than in USA - again based on my minimal statistics.

My larger point is that people can feel liberal hearted blaming age old practices but not all practice were rooted in putting down women when compared to mass manipulation to put women down in today's 'modern' society.

I do not expect many to agree to this point of view

 

[auh]

if i get to meet a scavenger, i will hold his hands and touch my eyes, i will touch his feet. because of what i percieve as crimes committed by my ancestors (unknown) to him and his ancestors(unknown). it is a personal thing. that is all.

Take it easy, will you. There are no scavengers now. And perhaps the dalit may not be interested in being touched by a brahmin (?) now

The sooner you come out of your guilt ridden perception, the better it is for you.

These are not commandments, but just my views/suggestions.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. TKS#135,
I generally agree with your post and POV, but may be we are seeing the same problem from two different sides.

I did not live in Tamil Nadu, and I am a man. So my pov is purely from observation.
I wrote http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...panchakacham-brahmacharyam-13.html#post195056

If women wanted a rest during any period, it should be her freewill. Why should society, husband, MIL dictate it? Who can tell another person when to pray, bath, eat?

It is like saying that a sick person should be banished to "kalapani" for rest as opposed to a hospital bed. Why should the world know that she is in "period". This was more humiliation than peaceful rest.

How ever rare an animal is it would rather prefer freedom than secluded man made zoo for its confinement. So the explanation does not hold water.

My larger point is that people can feel liberal hearted blaming age old practices but not all practice were rooted in putting down women when compared to mass manipulation to put women down in today's 'modern' society.

Just because there is poverty among blacks in South Africa, you can justify the Apartheid imposed by whites in that country.
Two wrongs do not make it right.
The forced segregation is wrong now and was wrong then, you might call it by any other name, it is still wrong.

If a women does not declare it in public, the public has no way of knowing and treats her like a normal person, but the moment she declares it she is treated like a pariah.
in Medieval Times a women was forced to carry a scarlet letter “A,” around her neck worn by one convicted of adultery. In TB society they did not want to spend the money on that kind of an ornament for their women. Otherwise they would want women in period to have similar treatment.

 

[renuka]

Dear Auh ji,

I think I know what Kunjuppu ji meant.. I know a person here of the so called Lower Caste who is a Church Pastor and believe me..he is such a gem of a person..he is so respectful and polite to everyone when he comes to my clinic.


Once I saw him having some magazine in his hand and I was wondering what it is and I asked him if I may see the magazine and he said yes and it was a christian magazine and he told me I could keep it and he also said that even though he runs a small time church he views God as one and the same and reads up all religion too and does not believe in imposing Christianity by converting a non willing person.

He never told me about his caste but another proud types of Hindu patient who once saw him in my clinic told me that this guy is of the so called lower caste.

Whenever I see this pastor..I feel a big let down as a Hindu that Hinduism could not sustain such a wonderful man..a true lost to Hinduism.

We Hindus do not realize that we have lost a lot of great people to other religions all becos of our mindset.

So I do not find Kunjuppu ji "guilt" complex as not within the scope of logic....this feelings come to anyone who thinks out of the box.

 

[prasad1]

Take it easy, will you. There are no scavengers now. And perhaps the dalit may not be interested in being touched by a brahmin (?) now

The sooner you come out of your guilt ridden perception, the better it is for you.

These are not commandments, but just my views/suggestions.

I am not in to apologize for history. I did nothing wrong in past and I have no reason to apologize now. Were there mistakes made in the past? Yes. Are the mistakes being made now? Yes. The caste based quota system is discriminatory, and young people are suffering for no reason. That is wrong. Corruption is killing all initiatives, that is wrong. Past is over let us worry about the present.

 

[renuka]

Respected knowledgeable members after going through all posts I feel that you all laugh at persons who traveled in bullock carts in those days when there were no other means.But every one will come to your side if you laugh at people prefer carts even on these days of rapid transportation.In my opinion all of you have for gotten the passing of time.If these are practiced even today may be they are at fault.

Dear Sir,

I feel you have misunderstood some of us.
Why should anyone laugh at anyone who traveled in Bullock Cart?

The 1st man traveled by foot...then taming of horses used as mode of transport...then invention of the wheel...invention of animal carriage/carts...invention of automation/locomation/air and sea travel..space travel...who knows what the future will be??

The point is our ancestors did not fear progress and went ahead with changes of the era and times...but it just seems that some of the present generation feel that by embracing change we are doing gross injustice to our ancestors...if that was true..our ancestors would have never decided to invent the wheel and we would have still only be walking as a mode of travel.

 

[auh]

Once I saw him having some magazine in his hand and I was wondering what it is and I asked him if I may see the magazine and he said yes and it was a christian magazine and he told me I could keep it and he also said that even though he runs a small time church he views God as one and the same and reads up all religion too and does not believe in imposing Christianity by converting a non willing person.

He never told me about his caste but another proud types of Hindu patient who once saw him in my clinic told me that this guy is of the so called lower caste.

Whenever I see this pastor..I feel a big let down as a Hindu that Hinduism could not sustain such a wonderful man..a true lost to Hinduism.

We Hindus do not realize that we have lost a lot of great people to other religions all becos of our mindset.

So I do not find Kunjuppu ji "guilt" complex as not within the scope of logic....this feelings come to anyone who thinks out of the box.

If all religions (read as Gods - this thinker bungled at that ) are one, why did he convert? Anyway, no answers expected; just a muse.

-----------------------------------------

I am not blaming anybody, but then if we were to "think out of the box" like you said, then life would just be full of apologies.

-- From the not so "out of box" thinker

 

[amala]

Hi Amala

Actually when I was very young I was given this explanation that women needed rest time every so often in a month. I do not remember anyone not brushing their teeth (actually no brush but using fingers those days). They were seemingly well taken care of from what little I remember.

I guess how someone was treated depended on the household. I tend to think most such customs had at least some good intentions. You are astute in my view to recognize that.

I am sure in some families women were mistreated . But in my life experience I tend to think women were treated more with respect those days than women in the west even today. I say this because society in the west got 'advanced' in how to feed on insecurities of human beings to market large number of products serving a billion dollar industry. The entire cosmetic industry and other 'look better' industry is booming because there are constant put downs. This westernization has hit India also especially those in upper middle class and those aspiring to be in upper middle class.

Mamis that I knew those days had at most a Ponds cream that they put on their face on special occasion. They did not care about how they looked and did not feel the pressure and manipulation to present themselves as someone they are not.

When I came to USA decades ago as a student I was told by a senior student about using this thing called deodorant. He told me that I must use this spray in my underarm to keep clean. I never thought myself or anyone smelled when I was growing up if they bathed every day.

Later I discovered how many young girls had very low self esteem and spent a lot of money just to conform to some look that media had decided is right.

I really think that in families I knew women are and were always held with respect and treated equally much more than in USA - again based on my minimal statistics.

My larger point is that people can feel liberal hearted blaming age old practices but not all practice were rooted in putting down women when compared to mass manipulation to put women down in today's 'modern' society.

I do not expect many to agree to this point of view

I agree with you that it entirely depends on the household. I know orthodox Brahmin relatives in India whose women have had more R and R during "those months". If one looks objectively at modern society i think in many ways women are fooled into thinking they have complete power when in fact they are mere toys for the higher powers who are mostly male. Take the obvious example of the liberated sexual woman. Who benefits the most from that? Men. People can't and won't ever see that. But before anyone gets their knickers in a twist I won't say "olden society" is perfect. Women had different problems then, as they do now.

Problems haven't been eliminated. Just changed and perhaps in some ways more addition. The ideal would be having the best of the previous era with the best of modern times, for women. That may happen someday.

 

[sarang]

I am really appalled with the contents of some posts and the contempt held by some on how women were treated during the 'glorious days'.

This is my experience, what was practised in my house. I know, it was not significantly different among the relatives.

The main inhabitants were mostly male, father and four sons; of course a steady stream of relatives and friends did not make much difference.

My mother occupied one room of the first floor and the terrace, ad we the sons were always at calling distance to do what she wanted. She will tell us when she wanted to go to the rear of the house, and we saw to to it that the bath area was kept free. We had to draw water from the well and fill buckets reserved for her. She took her own time to wash and clean, before returning to her room. She was always fresh and clean.

My father had to do the cooking with minimum help from us. It was always, jeera rasam and vazhai vadakkal and tayir sadam. Even though my mother was the last to eat, she did not complain, as this was the usual practice. The interesting part; she used to bake ground nuts, potato, brinjal and other items in an open fire in the terrace and we all had a go bring necessary additives - salt, chillie powder etc. from the kitchen.

She caught up with all the missed reading - weekly magazines, novels, stories (as no religious reading was not done), and we had to collect whatever she wanted from her circle of friends.
Apart from the physical discomfort - pain and cramps, she was cheerful and in a talkative mood, quite different from normal days. My sister in laws and wife too did get the same treatment when the event happened, during their annual visits.

I always thought, this period was welcomed by the ladies in the old days. They were happy to be left alone without any work. I do not agree that they had to remain unwashed, uncared and and humiliated. Even visitors talked to them from a distance.

I remember, in the seventies, in UK, women were not allowed in the swimming pools when they had periods.

Definitely women were treated with sensitivity and concern during the period, without abandoning the basic needs and requirements of seclusion.

 

[sangom]

She caught up with all the missed reading - weekly magazines, novels, stories (as no religious reading was not done), and we had to collect whatever she wanted from her circle of friends.
Apart from the physical discomfort - pain and cramps, she was cheerful and in a talkative mood, quite different from normal days. My sister in laws and wife too did get the same treatment when the event happened, during their annual visits

Yes. My aunt who was quite a helpful lady in almost all functions to many people, relatives, neighbours, friends, etc., used to get weeklies, magazines, novels etc., from many of her friends and try to finish as much of her "reading arrears" during those three days as she could. Looking back, I feel our womenfolk right from the fifties, did not despise those three days, but used to get rest.

 

[praveen]

friend_truth18,

The photos uploaded by you have been deleted.

Whatever your intention might be, this forum is not the place to share such photos.

Kindly refrain from uploading them again to the site. If you do, the pictures will be deleted and you account will be disabled immediately.

 

[prasad1]

Yes. My aunt who was quite a helpful lady in almost all functions to many people, relatives, neighbours, friends, etc., used to get weeklies, magazines, novels etc., from many of her friends and try to finish as much of her "reading arrears" during those three days as she could. Looking back, I feel our womenfolk right from the fifties, did not despise those three days, but used to get rest.

Are you really serious?

There are lot of prisoners who get advanced degree when they are in Jail, they also learn other skills behind bars. Some even find religion behind bar. In Prison they get 15 to 16 hours of rest. Particularly they get more rest when they are in solitary confinement.

A forced rest is not rest at all.
Nobody is saying rest is not needed, rest is must and should be upto the person or their doctors.
Rest is necessary, but does not have to be in seclusion, disheveled, unclean, banished to outhouse, ostracized from children and God, fed like dog, and made to sleep on ground.