Dr.Barani Sir, We are not fighting. Just that am finding this topic very, very tiresome. Its a dissected, sun-dried and now decomposed topic for me. Am not intellectual or anything like that. Just that there is the interest and i speak about it. I have deep admiration for Nacchinarkiniyan sir. But the topic brings out the worst from me. Regards.
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Let a Dalit become a Sankaracharya !! தலித்தை சங்கராச்சாரியாராக ஆக்குங
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Nacchinarkiniyan Sir,
I will not be responding to any more posts addressed to me by you on this thread. That does not mean am being disrespectful to you. Just that am tired of this topic and i want out. Hope you will respect that and just let me be.
Thanks.
Regards.
I will not be responding to any more posts addressed to me by you on this thread. That does not mean am being disrespectful to you. Just that am tired of this topic and i want out. Hope you will respect that and just let me be.
Thanks.
Regards.
H.H,
I am doing a snow job. You are presenting all facts and all academic reserch. Strong statements.
I have spent two years in college in the recent past getting a degree in Indology. I have my college library for books. But I prefer to rely on the standard text books and books on history which are stocked by libraries of the Sri Ramakrishna Mission and reputed colleges.
In Bengal we do not have to sell any ideas like kumari kandam (a lost continent) being the origin of Tamilians or Indus valley being Tamilian and fanciful Dravidian theories which cater to the whims and fancies of the political bosses. We do not find academic papers which state that Tamilians conquered the Polynesian islands.
Tamil Nadu is full of such academic books which you refer to very often.
Again my work in the last 40 years involved dealing with people from all sections of the society all over India. So I have heard a number of fanciful theories and I know how to draw my own conclusion.
Just because my ideas or conclusions do not agree with yours, they do not become false or non academic. I do not quote books because this is not an academic forum. Even if I quote books like The religious history of India by Prof. Goyal which was a standard text book in many universities long time back, you can not get a copy of the book. it was never a text book in South India.
You seem to think only those books which are found on the internet and google are academics. The fact is that most of these are shallow researches on popular controversial topics, written by people who want to make a fast buck. And also with a motive. Again I do not think only the academic reserch which is accepted by Universities in the U.S are academics.
I distrust these books which are used for dividing India and proving that that the caste division is based on race. I know how the Tamil Nadu government has managed to create departments on Dravidian linguistics in many Universities abroad and how the scholars there tow the Dravidian line. This is done even when the whole Dravidian/Aryan theory is under dispute.
It is for the members to decide whom they can rely on.
I am doing a snow job. You are presenting all facts and all academic reserch. Strong statements.
I have spent two years in college in the recent past getting a degree in Indology. I have my college library for books. But I prefer to rely on the standard text books and books on history which are stocked by libraries of the Sri Ramakrishna Mission and reputed colleges.
In Bengal we do not have to sell any ideas like kumari kandam (a lost continent) being the origin of Tamilians or Indus valley being Tamilian and fanciful Dravidian theories which cater to the whims and fancies of the political bosses. We do not find academic papers which state that Tamilians conquered the Polynesian islands.
Tamil Nadu is full of such academic books which you refer to very often.
Again my work in the last 40 years involved dealing with people from all sections of the society all over India. So I have heard a number of fanciful theories and I know how to draw my own conclusion.
Just because my ideas or conclusions do not agree with yours, they do not become false or non academic. I do not quote books because this is not an academic forum. Even if I quote books like The religious history of India by Prof. Goyal which was a standard text book in many universities long time back, you can not get a copy of the book. it was never a text book in South India.
You seem to think only those books which are found on the internet and google are academics. The fact is that most of these are shallow researches on popular controversial topics, written by people who want to make a fast buck. And also with a motive. Again I do not think only the academic reserch which is accepted by Universities in the U.S are academics.
I distrust these books which are used for dividing India and proving that that the caste division is based on race. I know how the Tamil Nadu government has managed to create departments on Dravidian linguistics in many Universities abroad and how the scholars there tow the Dravidian line. This is done even when the whole Dravidian/Aryan theory is under dispute.
It is for the members to decide whom they can rely on.
S
ShivKC
Guest
Wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding 
Sir, nowhere did we here speak of dravidians, conquering islands, kumari kandam and such crap. And you now say that such books are the ones i "refer to very often". Great. Sir, you can claim whatever you please. I just cannot care.
Just because i will not respond does not mean you can say anything you wish. Your post implies as though i am reading books which divide india, believe in race theories, seem to think google books are academic, read books of shallow research, and what else have you. Sir i do not need this lecture. And i have already given my views why i do not believe in aryan / dravidian divide or in aryan invasion theory in this thread - http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6498-aryan-invasion-confusion.html
As regards your point in bold, whatever posts were made by you and me on this thread, it is best to leave it to the readers to decide. Anyone prudent will not rely on what you or me are saying. They will do their own research. Thankyou very much and goodbye.
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DrBarani
0
wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding
They have no choice- Dear Kunjuppu Sir, You said it.
It has happened long back. Madras University has Saivis, Jainology and Vashnavism as subjects for study in Post Graduate studies and there are research scholars also doing research for their Ph.ds. in these subjects. Yet a section of the reformers will always demand that Vedas are to be taught to all. Their targets are not knowledge or its scarcity but brahmins.
Cheers.
There are graduate courses in Vedic Sciences in some of the universities in Bengal. Full fledged departments and a number of research papers are published every year on Hinduism. Of course there are a number of colleges in Banares teaching Vedic sciences and other subjects relating to Vedas. More and more books are published in Sanskrit. Original scriptures with explanations.
You will find some of them in Giri trading company and Jayalakshmi Indological book house on Appar swami koil street, Mylapore.
You will find some of them in Giri trading company and Jayalakshmi Indological book house on Appar swami koil street, Mylapore.
dear suraju,
what is the situation in india, if you can generalize? do you think parents successfully stop these type of marriages? or does it depend on how they think their child has 'strayed away' from the varna system.
for example, an iyer/iyengar may be a reluctant ok, but an iyer/muslim or xtians a nono, with all the other groups in between.
what about allilance to north indians?
to give you an idea, in my family, the issue has been more of economic and social compatibility. when someone married jesudoss' relatives, it was more a source of bragging.
on the other hand, marrying a dark skinned, economically not well off, and not much in terms of job prospects - definitely the foot came down hard.
yes, i am aware of university studies. i am not so sure, the entire population would be interested in the vedas. the benefit of being taught in an institution is that, the knowledge is open to anyone, who seeks it.
Most certainly their targets are not brahmins. There is nothing to be got by targeting brahmin people. Their target is casteism which is upheld by brahmanism (dharmashastras / smrithis) and 'brahmanical' mutts. Their target is also hypocricy which comes from the fact that a vedic scholar is still not accepted as a brahmin, for his knowledge, by those who claim to be 'brahmins' merely for birth.
It does not explain why there is no chair for Vedic studies or any subject relating the Vedas like other universities. In all other states even where there are no mutts non-Brahmins are not allowed to recite the Vedas.
The Varnashrama Dharma and the Smiritis existed thousands of years before even the Mutts were thought of.
The Saiva Agamas are the basis of Saiva Siddhanta. They are in Sanskrit. Are they studied? Are the Panchratra Agama of Vaishnavism studied?
Most of the books on Saiva Agamas have come from outside Tamil Nadu.
There is a tendency to associate Sanskrit with Brahmins and Hinduism though Saiva Siddhanta originated in Kashmir.
The Varnashrama Dharma and the Smiritis existed thousands of years before even the Mutts were thought of.
The Saiva Agamas are the basis of Saiva Siddhanta. They are in Sanskrit. Are they studied? Are the Panchratra Agama of Vaishnavism studied?
Most of the books on Saiva Agamas have come from outside Tamil Nadu.
There is a tendency to associate Sanskrit with Brahmins and Hinduism though Saiva Siddhanta originated in Kashmir.
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The part I have highlighted is totally opposed not only to the reality but also Brahmins. All brahmins in my circle incuding me have more NB friends (including Dalits) and we eat together, go together, and what not. Brahmins are the ones to break the caste first. Bharathi adorned Daliths with poonal. Vaidnatha IYER took them to Madurai Meenakshi amman temple. Brahmins were one of the firsts to go and live in flats. Brahmins were quick to seize the opportunity to go overseas. In all these cases, they knew they had to accept other castes and they did it. Just because brahmins have their own identity in culture or custom or language does not mean that they uphold casteism.
renuka
Well-known member
I have to agree with you cos we humans even if we abolish caste we will classify ourselves in some other pairs of opposites.
Dualism is the middle name of our very existence.
C RAVI
0
Rightly said Sri Haridasa Siva,
Unfortunately the truth seem to never been recognized and accepted in a debate that gets started with the sole motive of winning the show just on one side. Whenever I find posts of any of our members here, exposing the ground reality, without referring to mere reaseach work, surveys, statistics (that can not be fully accepted as releable ) seldom are the responses to agree with it. AFAIK, I never have found any counter argument for such reality posts, obviously there can not be any. Ironically, there are no acceptance of the reality by the opponents..
siva,
not sure if vaidyanatha iyer could be strung along with bharathiar.
iyer was famous for running an ashram, with two pandhis, one for brahmins, and other for NB, even though the food was the same.
this was one of periyar's grief against the brahmins - no matter what they espouse, when it came to the crux of the matter, they stood apart.
on the whole, i agree with you, that we as a community, have come a long way.
i do not know how many of us practice double tumbler system at home.
not that it matters, as almost all of us, eat outside in restaurants, and who knows who ate in those plates, or drank from those glasses.
i think, the concept of ritual purity is so strongly inbuilt into us, that it will take a few generations to remove the belief that others are 'tainted'.
ganga river may be polluted, but still sacred. a panchama might have just showered, but still 'untouchable'.
surprisingly, in the land where you live, south africa, as per my tour guide, even now, 20 years after apartheid, living colonies are still segregated by race. not because of the law, but because of economic affordability.
the area where you live, is it predominantly indian, expat indian or white or mixed? if you dont mind. this is more a query on post apartheid of south africa - apartheid a concept just as bad as our manu's laws.
btw, i came across a guy, tambram, whose name is manu
S
subbudu1
Guest
Nachi it may already be too late with lot of inter-subcaste marriages. Not easy to find a 100% pure sample. We will have to dig as far as Vada desha vadama , Choladesha Vadama, Inji, Sabhayar etc and the rather unknown autarra vadama. Similarly Mangudi, Palamaneri , Malanadu all this and more. But all these segments have not only intermarried we cannot be absolutely sure when one segment might have kept a marriage with a particular vadama group.
Vathima, Gurukkal are the few good samples we might have as they are likely to be unmixed for a few centuries atleast in certain economic and traditional segments.
Leaving that aside, I find that the usage of the word-Fraudulent,by Happy Hindu as unnecessary and provocative. Brahminization is a process that has taken different turns in different parts of India. I would not dare to say the means by which brahminization happened without concrete evidences. On one end of spectrum we have inter marriages with other immediate castes, of which we have plenty of literary evidence. At the other end of spectrum we have the situation of non brahmins acquiring brahmin status by virtue of a guru. In such a procedure the guru who becomes like a father could have proposed his gotra for the adopted. I will not go further than this without proof.
One can call someone fraudulent if their intention is to cheat. One can cheat one's caste but cannot cheat one's behavior. A person can be called fraudulently converted only if his behavior does not live up to his reputation. Further the rules of smrithis that prevent such conversion hold only for those who believe in it fully. We have no proof of such unhesitating belief in smrithis even earlier among all sections of brahmins -though the intention is to proclaim so for conformity. Sivaji and the verma family of kerala were converted to kshatriyas. Not all brahmins were prepared for that. That does not mean that their conversion was illegitimate.
Today there is a kind of brahminization by Gaudiya mutts. They hold certain principles above smrithis. Such a conversion cannot be regarded as fraudulent.
There is not much proof of fraudulent means of conversion to brahmins. Even if there was a few examples cannot be used as rule against all. Rishis like Apastamba or Bodhyayana or Manu who have smrithis after them could have arrived late in history. The rules in place might have been different in much earlier periods. So again brahminization cannot be called fraudulent unless one has sufficient data to incriminate a majority.
Brahmins of the present sect have existed for a sufficiently long time. People including Non Brahmins knew the bad fellows amongst them. One cannot however deny that inspite of the hypocrisy and the derision shown towards the low castes, brahmins by and large have tried to abide by the law with definitely a few exceptions. Good behavior was definitely there as much as among chettiars as among vellalars and other respected communities in the country. Moreover they did play a very important role in protecting the vedas in the past. Until that point of time atleast one cannot call them as fraudulent. Deluded may be used , but not fraudulent. But in the medieval times which community in the world was not deluded?
Even in modern times, we suffer from many inaccurate understanding of life and world which will be pinpointed by our descendants. Deluded could still be used against us but fraudulent?
T
talwan
Guest
A Dalit can not be made Sankaracharya.We cannot Make him sankarachrya just for the sake of it.
But in my opinion a Dalit can become a Sankaracharya.This He can aquire by his deeds.Then everybody will accept himas Sankarachrya.
alwan
But in my opinion a Dalit can become a Sankaracharya.This He can aquire by his deeds.Then everybody will accept himas Sankarachrya.
alwan
This Thread, although may look as a very old topic re-visited, the participants, (HH and Nachi) illuminated very well the issues involved. I like some of their views and positions.
As I see it from my vantage point of a Naturalist who voluntarily walked away from all the Organized Religions and the Gods they created, here is my two-cents on this matter:
People will have diametrically opposing views depending on whether one follows Religious Orthodoxy, or is a Religious Supramacist or is a simple Pragmatist.
Hinduism from the eyes of the world invented the Rigid Caste Hierarchy, and India is dealing with the pathology that it inflicted on her soul. Although Caste Hierarchy started of as a benign loose structure, later became very rigid and became the hallmark of India's religious and social life. Early on people of different groups were easily inter mixing by inter-marriages; later, coinciding with the rigidity of Caste Hierarchy, this disappeared and inter-caste and inter-religious marriages were forbidden by ALL caste peoples.
Now in the post-Independent India, the Pragmatists are slowly and steadily coming along and look at the whole mess in awe and dismay.. they just walk away from the Caste Hierarchy and Religion as a remedy, and their children and grandchildren will not know any thing of the old Indian Hierarchy at all... this will take 2-3 generations.
Nachi observed that what's happening is TN is horrible wrt treatment of Dalits and Brahmins... Yes, IMO, but that's the repercussions of what happened several decades or centuries earlier to other communities. People in the middle hated the groups placed above and started ill treating the group placed below their relative positions. Yes, this is a hypocritical situation.
In the Caste Hierarchy, I estimate that Brahmins of 10% and "Kings and Warrior" of 10%, "Business Peoples" of about 20% and the rest 60% of ST/SC/OBC in the total. As a remedy for the previous bias and discrimination, State and Central Gov't give preference in education and job opportunities to the ST/SC/OBC of as much as 55% of the total..
This is quite reasonable... and the relevant question is how long this preference should extend?...some would say "as long as other communities come to par with the upper-caste communities"..
Is that not fair?
Whether Mutts and Adheenams will reform towards a non-caste format is a tough question because most of them fall under Religious Orthodoxy, IMO.
Very interesting Thread, IMO.
Peace.
As I see it from my vantage point of a Naturalist who voluntarily walked away from all the Organized Religions and the Gods they created, here is my two-cents on this matter:
People will have diametrically opposing views depending on whether one follows Religious Orthodoxy, or is a Religious Supramacist or is a simple Pragmatist.
Hinduism from the eyes of the world invented the Rigid Caste Hierarchy, and India is dealing with the pathology that it inflicted on her soul. Although Caste Hierarchy started of as a benign loose structure, later became very rigid and became the hallmark of India's religious and social life. Early on people of different groups were easily inter mixing by inter-marriages; later, coinciding with the rigidity of Caste Hierarchy, this disappeared and inter-caste and inter-religious marriages were forbidden by ALL caste peoples.
Now in the post-Independent India, the Pragmatists are slowly and steadily coming along and look at the whole mess in awe and dismay.. they just walk away from the Caste Hierarchy and Religion as a remedy, and their children and grandchildren will not know any thing of the old Indian Hierarchy at all... this will take 2-3 generations.
Nachi observed that what's happening is TN is horrible wrt treatment of Dalits and Brahmins... Yes, IMO, but that's the repercussions of what happened several decades or centuries earlier to other communities. People in the middle hated the groups placed above and started ill treating the group placed below their relative positions. Yes, this is a hypocritical situation.
In the Caste Hierarchy, I estimate that Brahmins of 10% and "Kings and Warrior" of 10%, "Business Peoples" of about 20% and the rest 60% of ST/SC/OBC in the total. As a remedy for the previous bias and discrimination, State and Central Gov't give preference in education and job opportunities to the ST/SC/OBC of as much as 55% of the total..
This is quite reasonable... and the relevant question is how long this preference should extend?...some would say "as long as other communities come to par with the upper-caste communities"..
Is that not fair?
Whether Mutts and Adheenams will reform towards a non-caste format is a tough question because most of them fall under Religious Orthodoxy, IMO.
Very interesting Thread, IMO.
Peace.
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S
subbudu1
Guest
In the caste world in the past, there was only limited knowledge of the caste of the other groups- their practices sub divisions their real wealth and so on. A result was that artistocratic and professionally successful TBS were used as an example for deriding the entire lot of TBS. There were many TB who were extremely poor. My poor grandfather could not study for graduation inspite of having stood first in his school. He did not study for a degree but had an almirah full of books- Starting from Shakespeare literature to Greek Mythology to Books on Science and astronomy to Sanskrit books in grantham and devanagiri both to ancient tamil literature he was well read in all. This was remarkable and people will like to say that he was fortunate to have all that because he was a brahmin. Absolutely untrue, he had no privileges which some of our rich middle castes had, yet he stood out because he showed hardwork and bought the books with his own hard earned money.
I have full sympathy for the backward castes and the dalits but in what way are the rich among them less priveleged than poor brahmins. The blame is put on intellectual capital acquired over the years. I disagree. Consider a poor TB, he has no money to send his son to a big school. There is nobody to even teach this child English at home. His father is unread in english. The boy is sincere but cannot speak a proper sentence in English. I have serious doubts where this kind of child will be when he passes out. He neither has the money to study in those rich private professional colleges nor can he afford coaching nor does he have any of the so-called intellectual capital in modern lines.
He is being discriminated by reservations!
There are some NB I have heard who say this is a punishment for the bad ways of their ancestors. I think indirectly the Government of India has branded the B as a criminal tribe which is not true painting thereby everyone with a single brush.
All said and done reservations in its current form is bad. One cannot discriminate anyone based on supposed practices in the past as if we dig deep enough there would be equal number of criminals, rogues and rascals among our ancestors. In any case there is a common origin to all humans.
The government is trying to take the easy road instead of improving primary educafion and putting in good teachers and good system at the grassroot level. Prof Amartya Sen had to say recently that he felt that Nehruvian Policy led to the negligence of primary education. This is the real reason for educational backwardness in certain sections and this is to be addressed . Reservations in India is discrimination and demoralizing. Accept it or not that is the fact!
C RAVI
0
Sri, subuddu1,
With no doubt I would join with you in your conclusion. With my full confidence, I would say that, almost all of us in India would agree (atleast with our consciousness) that, cast based reservations in India is an utter discriminating and demoralizing factors, in such a largest democratic country.
Reservations are required purely based on the financial conditions/status of the citizens and nothing else. Poverty and richness should be the only determining criteria, distinguishing people in terms of their priveleges, to be considered fair enough.
The cast based reservations are purely political tactics for obvious reasons and nothing else can be justified for these ridiculous sytems in the present scenario.
DrBarani
0
A falsely perceived social imbalance is being used as an excuse to impose a tangible economic discrimination.
As I said elsewhere, I concede that there are about 10%-20% of Bs or TBs are poor making less than Rs.150 per person per day.
The Solution is private charities and other NGOs must identify these poor people and extend the helping hand.. which is happening in many many places in India.
Yes, good quality education for ALL is the solution to bring India into the Advanced World Status... which could take for ever... former President Abdul Kalam envisioned that it's possible by 2020.
That's a pipe dream, IMO... India has to make plenty of Structural Reforms which will take a humongous time and efforts.
Wait & watch.
The Solution is private charities and other NGOs must identify these poor people and extend the helping hand.. which is happening in many many places in India.
Yes, good quality education for ALL is the solution to bring India into the Advanced World Status... which could take for ever... former President Abdul Kalam envisioned that it's possible by 2020.
That's a pipe dream, IMO... India has to make plenty of Structural Reforms which will take a humongous time and efforts.
Wait & watch.
S
subbudu1
Guest
Friend whom should the social charities take care- poor dalits, poor brahmins, poor vaishyas, poor mudaliars , poor muslims . If we just add the list of poor it is a huge number a huge one.
It is like running a parallel rural education department by Government of India.
Private charities have so much work and little money to do the entire work. Your fix of reservation helps the lot of educated backward and rich dalits and then a few other poor .
When you have a competitive examination to select canditates let us say 5 seats are available.
3 seat go by reservation . 2 seats are bagged by upper castes with good means. 1 seat goes to a dalit and other 2 other bcs. There is however a poor upper caste who has marginally lost would have made in this list of 5 but got skipped because he had only 2 seat. This is reality. In Tamil Nadu there is 70% reservation so much worse than this situation described above. I am not concerned with the 2 uppercastes with means if they suffer they will even send their children to study in china or russia. I am concerned with the poor who has no recourse at all to anything. There are even now some Bs who cannot even migrate to chennai because they cant afford to live there.
Government is serving the vote bank politics and trying to find an excuse for its own corruption. Reservation based on caste is not the solution. Based on poverty makes sense. That should be the guide. There can not be an excuse for not providing good rural education. Free cable television, but no good education. Cheating!
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Assuming this is the view of a full 50% of the Bs, what would be the final % in the total?
Hardly about 5% of the total citizens! Will this cut the political reality in India?
No....
peace.
Dear Subbudu Sir:
I hear you very well..
My solution is this for now:
I estimate that nearly 30% of the private economy is in the hands of Bs in India... they are the solution, plus various Mutts.. they should open good schools and colleges for poor Bs.
In my view, nearly 3/4 of the entire citizens (900 millions) are poor making less than Rs. 150 per person per day. Of this, Bs are only a small portion in my calculation (about 24 millions maximum), still a good number.
Yes, we need to come up with Solutions to ALL of the poor peoples in India.
Cheers.
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