Let us adopt best practices from various other societies.

[kunjuppu]

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Dear Sri kunjuppu Ji,

I saw and read your response to my post a couple of times. You raise very valid questions (and in fact I structured my post in a way, I was expecting questions from both end of the spectrum).

Looks like you have removed it. Please repost it (especially the part where I am felicitated!), but seriously, please do. I have been thinking of a response.

By the way, no need to add all that circumspection - our thoughts are similar, but only our language is different.

Regards,
KRS

dear KRS,

i had lot of trepeditions about my reply. i suspected that some of your statements were red herrings for a good verbal wrestle, and it was that which prompted me to reply so quickly.

the reason i removed the post, is that i am currently experiencing a post excitum syndrome - the last few days have been exciting ones by way of dialogues.

though i don't remember verbatim, i think i can recollect the content that might be of particular interest to you, ie 'why you said what you said on certain things'.

please bear with and thank you for your request. my honour to oblige.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Reva,

Let me reaffirm, that you are a delightful addition to this forum, and more importantly, a much wanted representative of your gender and generation.

Both KRS & brahmanyan have put it excellently, re the role and right of participation.

The mission statement is ‘brahmin communities spread across the world’. Many of our best contributors have not been of Brahmin tradition, and the majority of our membership is of a class to appreciate divergent views from divergent communities, as long as it is centric or friendly to our community. this too should be encouraged.

I guess this forum is a reflection of our community – in its various facets and views. There is a common thread however, is that all of us, in our own way, wish our community well.

My postings reflect my personal view of life. Ie that the only constant in life is change, and it is in times of change that we are offered the greatest opportunity. To give one example: the Y2K has provided an opportunity for youth to upward mobility without the use of influence or bribes and every day, if one looks, there are opportunities to be found.

I also feel, that members need not agree on every topic to be friends. I, for one, I think, I have irritated and angered just about everybody in this forum at one point or the other. The very next day agree with the same folks on some other topic.

So I think nobody should get hung up on one’s views on one topic and paint him or her ‘absolute evil’. The current recent discussion on ic marriages, I am afraid, has made some of my friends very angry with me and they hold grudges like I am ‘traitor’ of the community. To me, I see facts as is, and how best to handle the facts and ‘manage’ it to yield optimum results. They make not be to 100% your liking, but I think everyone should know how to ‘damage control’.

Last night I saw ‘abhiyum neeyum’. It is a movie about a dad’s love for his only child daughter. How letting go is so difficult! But this man mustered up the best universal values that he knew, and leaned on them hard, not only to nurture his own relationship with his daughter, but also develop a new one with his sardarji sil. If only life were that simple!

There are a lot of silent readers here, and my wish is that more would come out and participate.

Looking forward to continuing several postings from you. you have more well wishers and greeters than you could imagine

 

[Raghy]

Sow. Revathi said -

I want to get good customs and practices - Let me give an example - Wishing the Driverof the Bus while alighting and boading a bus is a simple custom we can adopt from West (My experience in UK)...

Sow. Revathi, Greetings. With due respect to your message, many many moons ago, I used to travel to my village from Chennai every saturday evening. I used to take 102B bus (Chennai to Thiruppattur, Vellore Dist.). I used to wish the conductor, thank the driver when I was getting off. Result - Sometimes, in crowded seasons like Deepavali season, the bus would allow only myself to board! (I used to board the bus from Saidapet.. not from the terminus..in those days, Parrys corner was the terminus). I and most of our friends used to thank the conductor in Vellore town. I always used to thank the server in the hotels/restaurents/tea shop. As i am typing this message, most of these persons are revived in my memory. I don't know......in my opinion, we possibly are already following very nice habits in Tamil Nadu with out actually realising them.

(I feel a bit naughty!.....)This reminds me the dialogue in the movie 'Veera Pandiya Katta bomman'.....கற்றுக் கொடுக்கும் இனம் தமிழ் இனம்; அதற்க்கு கற்றுக் கொடுக்க முயற்சிப்பது அறிவீனம்....

YouTube - Veerapandiya Kattabomman

(Kindly watch 0.32 to 0.37).

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

Sow. Revathi said -

Sow. Revathi, Greetings. With due respect to your message, many many moons ago, I used to travel to my village from Chennai every saturday evening. I used to take 102B bus (Chennai to Thiruppattur, Vellore Dist.). I used to wish the conductor, thank the driver when I was getting off. Result - Sometimes, in crowded seasons like Deepavali season, the bus would allow only myself to board! (I used to board the bus from Saidapet.. not from the terminus..in those days, Parrys corner was the terminus). I and most of our friends used to thank the conductor in Vellore town. I always used to thank the server in the hotels/restaurents/tea shop. As i am typing this message, most of these persons are revived in my memory. I don't know......in my opinion, we possibly are already following very nice habits in Tamil Nadu with out actually realising them.

(I feel a bit naughty!.....)This reminds me the dialogue in the movie 'Veera Pandiya Katta bomman'.....கற்றுக் கொடுக்கும் இனம் தமிழ் இனம்; அதற்க்கு கற்றுக் கொடுக்க முயற்சிப்பது அறிவீனம்....

YouTube - Veerapandiya Kattabomman

(Kindly watch 0.32 to 0.37).

Cheers!

raghy, revathi,

i could not understand why people say that this is not the practice in india.

when i was a student, i used to take pallavan all the time. often it used to be the same driver & conductor. we always used to greet each other - hello or something like that, and nod, wave or 'varEn' when we leave. i guess our equivalent to thank you.

our gestures and words say so much.

one thing i find even 10 year old girls in our households, address 50 year old maids as nee. i would blame the parents. a neighbour who is 50 is neenga, but not the maid or the servant. don't they too deserve respect?

same goes for auto drivers? vegetable vendors? etc. i use the word 'neenga' deliberately when i am in chennai, chide whoever is with me, if they don't. publicly too. i don't care. we need to brush up on our manners.

 

[ganeshrev]

Thank you Shri Raghi, Shru Kunjuppu

Probably, personal experiences of the likes of me reflects the detoriation of our society in general and widening class differences between the time of your stay and the current scenario.

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[suresoo]

I used to travel to my village from Chennai every saturday evening. I used to take 102B bus (Chennai to Thiruppattur, Vellore Dist.). I used to wish the conductor, thank the driver when I was getting off.

Sir,
In TN, these practices exist even today in villages, rural areas. And some of us do it to auto drivers in Urban areas.
The Public transport is too crowded and its not practical to expect such reciprocation.

We see similar situations in downtown areas in US. For example in NY city people are always on a hurry and little mannerism are not expected.

thanks,

 

[kunjuppu]

Thank you Shri Raghi, Shru Kunjuppu

Probably, personal experiences of the likes of me reflects the detoriation of our society in general and widening class differences between the time of your stay and the current scenario.

Namaskarams
Revathi

not at all revathi. ultimately i think, it is what we make of the society right? we can in our own little way, set some examples. after all, if one person, and only person emulates us, it is a better world from our pov.

after all, most of my postings are way out of the spectrum of the forum average. but i think there may something of use to someone. to me the satisfaction is doing what i believe in. go for it, young lady. do not lose faith in humanity.

the world is more beautiful than what we give credit. best wishes ...and regards.

 

[kunjuppu]

..

By the way, if we think through the values taught us by our religion (not the ritual aspects, as they are for a different purpose), the best practices are there to be adapted for the current times: Egalitarianism, level playing field for everyone, charity, respect to all human beings, respect to diversity, living for the Truth etc., etc., etc.

Dear KRS,

Thank you for giving me the opportunity, re pen this note. Verbatim, it may differ, but hopefully not in the nature of the queries.

Maybe taking a para out of a whole post so well thought out and put together, may sound unfair. However, the above para, to me, sounds more an aberration to the generally elevated tone of your reply, and which I agree in toto 85%.

Let us go through, if you permit, to consider each of the characterestics of our religion and seek clarification

Egalitarianism: to me personally, the very existence of caste is outdated and not practiced among the hindus of north america, by and large.

Much as is proclaimed by some of us, that caste today has no validity, I cannot but help the deep held feeling to this entity by a majority of members here. and by the hindu society at large, in india. in this day and age, as a community, it has been brought to attention here enough times, the ensuing disadvantages and with no end in sight. do we have any use for this kind of 'egalitarianism'.. it smells of the old 'separate but equal' slogans of the old US south.

i am still licking the wounds that I received from my recent stance of intercaste marriage. I was no where near positive advocation of the same, but the very fact that I could look at it somewhat analytically and consider how to handle it from a parental viewpoint taking into consideration the way our society is moving towards ic marrriage inspite of (parental discord). Even though other indian religiious groups do not wish to intermarry, their faith sanctions it. In our case, right from the faith onwards it is condemned.

Also our treatment of dalits.to me before God all of us are equal (or unequal). We can absovle ourselves of having done no harm to the dalits, but do you think, an introspective thread about how in the past, under our supposed moral authority, we have condoned the exclusion of dalits from our society and the ensuing loss of dignity and lack of upward mobility.

Level playing field for everyone: today it is tambram’s wail that he is the jew of india. What do these guys know of the history of jews? There is a precocious arrogance when one claims to be the ‘jews of india’ – I would imagine this to be mainly a retort to the public at large, in the face of reservations in education & jobs and their presupossed assumption that every brahmin is ‘brilliant’. They would indeed be surprised how close or even better the NB students of today do, and by encroaching on the general quota prove that instead of facing reality that all humans have the same potential given the right environment.

Charity: till now our psyche was to accept charity. I have lost count of the posts where it was invoked that charity was bestowed to the brahmins by the rich and the kings alike. Infact even sivaji ganesan on his 60th or 70th birthday feed a few hundred brahmins. Not because these were poor, but because these were brahmins, and our vellalar icon, felt that he was opening up a gate to heaven by feeding the cross thread wearers. Contrast that with the charities of the jews, wherever they lived. There are sassoon hospitals in northern india started by iraqi jews who were here briefly in the early 20th century. I lose count of the evidence of philanthropy of the jews of toronto – in fact I am told that the fund gathers, literally shame you in front of the community if your purse strings are not loosened enough.

Respect for all human beings: folks/admin tolerate a very high level of intolerance against other communities, in my opinion, because most of us, though may not sympathize with such attitudes, continue to condone its presence. one only has to remember martin noemeller about that incarnation of absolute evil
First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me..

QED.

Respect for diversity: I think I have covered it in the above paras.

Now KRS if you had mentioned that the best of our breed qualities which are emulated by NB and which even periyar used to exhort his followers: love of learning, hard work, focus, ambition, motivation, fanatic desire for upward financial mobility (nothing wrong in this, is there?), basically simple living, thrift, mobiliity to any corner of the earth, adaptability to wherever we live, love of family, emancipation of the woman, giving our girls the same opportunities as our boys….i would have had absolutely no problem. Why did you leave these out and focussed on our religion as something to adapt best?

There are other aspects of our religion, which I know you are aware, and could be adapted as the best. I am very insistent, that the best of philosphy should be applicable equally to the brahmn or the dalit. Ie absolutely inclusive and I am quite sure that there is plenty of that lying around in the vedas and tamil hindu hymns....

but the characterestics that you listed.. some of them are to me our culture's weak under belly....

The only other issue that I would take mild issue is re corruption. Corruption will exist wherever humans do. in the west, it is at a much higher level and does not affect the common man. Mostly. I sincerely hope that india moves to that stage soon. Maybe not in my life time but perhaps in my childrens?

Thank You.

 

[sangom]

Reference to Shri Hoover and casting aspersions on him is not at all a good sign. I request Shri Praveen and the moderators to urgently intervene and put a stop to such postings. Otherwise it will be very evident that some members are more equal than others here.

I will not be posting any further till the above post is edited or removed.

 

[kunjuppu]

Reference to Shri Hoover and casting aspersions on him is not at all a good sign. I request Shri Praveen and the moderators to urgently intervene and put a stop to such postings. Otherwise it will be very evident that some members are more equal than others here.

I will not be posting any further till the above post is edited or removed.

thank you sangom. absolutely right. i have removed the references.

much appreciated for the warning. . you are right.

thanks again.

 

[hoover]

Conditions of Jews before holocaust were not much different from that of Brahmin in India, today. Good, vary, vary, vary good but not accepted and must be bashed because they are Brahmin.
Shri Brahmanyan sir wrote in this thread that a peaceful community was driven to become a invincible martial race due to persecution. We are also such cultured, peaceful and honest people (it doesn’t mean that no other is worthy of being so everyone should but we as a minority cannot say more than should, no one is banning them to become so) but if persecution of Brahmin, second grade citizenship goes on like this I will suggest no other ideal for Brahmin than Jews.

 

[amala]

Respect for all human beings: folks/admin tolerate a very high level of intolerance against other communities, in my opinion, because most of us, though may not sympathize with such attitudes, continue to condone its presence. one only has to remember martin noemeller about that incarnation of absolute evil
First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.

I second this especially in the recent climate of Muslim witch hunting in the West. I always stand up for them and generalisations about them drive me insane. Which is more than could be said for many of my Hindu brethrens, sadly. Imagine how it would be if we were in their (Muslims) position?

If someone has Punjabi, North Indian ancestry and hate Muslims due to what their families have been through I can totally understand but at the same time I refuse to dislike Muslims just because of their religion. And due to my circumstances I don't have this inherent anti Muslim baggage displayed by many of my Hindu and Sikh friends.

 

[suresoo]

Most of the 'best practices' practiced by other cultures today are also embedded in our religion as well. I remember about 20 years ago, listening to a particular Methodist preacher every Sunday morning on TV for a couple of years when I lived in a particular city, because what all he preached conformed profoundly with my own Hindu view of the world. I learnt a lot about my own culture by listening to a Christian!

Dear KRS Ji,


Great Post as always. In India we should seek ‘Unity In Diversity’ and not ‘Unity Over Diversity’.
BTW, the final response you gave in “Declining Tamil Numbers…” is not convincing. But In accordance with ‘Moderator Praveen’ wishes I will not invoke similar questions here.


-------------------------------------------



Kunjuppu Sir,
I also was thinking of ‘Martin Niemoller’ quotes, only thing is with different adjectives

I watched NDTV yesterday night on ‘Bihar Elections Coverage’. They were saying wherever they go ‘Bihari People’ are talking about VIKAS rather than caste! Even lalu is not talking about caste overtly or covertly, lalu is saying I can do more development that Nitish.

The cries of ‘Jai Yadav, Jai Kurmi, Jai Dalit’ from last elections is replaced by ‘Jai Bihari’ now.

India is changing fast since 1992, its in the virtual world we are stuck with these old labels.

The Sun is beginning to rise on India after a long cold night, let’s enjoy the warmth!

Unity in Diversity,

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri kunjuppu ji,
Thank you for the response. My comments in 'blue' below:

Dear KRS,

Thank you for giving me the opportunity, re pen this note. Verbatim, it may differ, but hopefully not in the nature of the queries.

Maybe taking a para out of a whole post so well thought out and put together, may sound unfair. However, the above para, to me, sounds more an aberration to the generally elevated tone of your reply, and which I agree in toto 85%.

Let us go through, if you permit, to consider each of the characterestics of our religion and seek clarification
Let me first set the table, in terms of the context of my post. Remember, the topic is about 'adapting the best practices' from other cultures. What I tried to do is to paint a picture that a culture should have the ability to 'grow' them from it's own roots. Obviously, ours is mostly based on the tenets of our religion. So, I tried to show, where in my opinion we need to improve our behavior for each person in our community so that these 'characteristics' become 'best practices'. So, I have picked only those that, in my opinion, as a community, we may not do well. These came to my mind, but then there may be others or even some folks thinking that we do 'best practice' of these characteristics. I also tied these to our religion, lest someone argues that these are 'western' or 'foreign' in concept.

Egalitarianism: to me personally, the very existence of caste is outdated and not practiced among the hindus of north america, by and large.

Much as is proclaimed by some of us, that caste today has no validity, I cannot but help the deep held feeling to this entity by a majority of members here. and by the hindu society at large, in india. in this day and age, as a community, it has been brought to attention here enough times, the ensuing disadvantages and with no end in sight. do we have any use for this kind of 'egalitarianism'.. it smells of the old 'separate but equal' slogans of the old US south.

i am still licking the wounds that I received from my recent stance of intercaste marriage. I was no where near positive advocation of the same, but the very fact that I could look at it somewhat analytically and consider how to handle it from a parental viewpoint taking into consideration the way our society is moving towards ic marrriage inspite of (parental discord). Even though other indian religiious groups do not wish to intermarry, their faith sanctions it. In our case, right from the faith onwards it is condemned.

Also our treatment of dalits.to me before God all of us are equal (or unequal). We can absovle ourselves of having done no harm to the dalits, but do you think, an introspective thread about how in the past, under our supposed moral authority, we have condoned the exclusion of dalits from our society and the ensuing loss of dignity and lack of upward mobility.
I agree with your views. Unless we as people rededicate our selfs to the concept that 'all men are born equal' (in human rights and opportunity), and thereby adopt an egalitarian view over time, we as people will suffer. All castes in Hinduism must bear the burden of the dalits today. While I do not like to be punished for the sins of my forefathers, I do not want us to forget that we do owe something to the uplift of that community, on a voluntary, moral basis. Again, without the concept of egalitarianism, this will not happen.


Level playing field for everyone: today it is tambram’s wail that he is the jew of india. What do these guys know of the history of jews? There is a precocious arrogance when one claims to be the ‘jews of india’ – I would imagine this to be mainly a retort to the public at large, in the face of reservations in education & jobs and their presupossed assumption that every brahmin is ‘brilliant’. They would indeed be surprised how close or even better the NB students of today do, and by encroaching on the general quota prove that instead of facing reality that all humans have the same potential given the right environment.
This goes along with egalitarianism. We need to make sure that we do not let one boy sit on the chair and another sit on the floor based on their birth. How many of us unthinkingly do this often? As much as we hate the treatment of us by others, I really wonder in general whether we really treat others as our true equals or have a patronizing attitude. Each one of us should look in to ourselves as to whether we follow the 'best practice' on this.

Charity: till now our psyche was to accept charity. I have lost count of the posts where it was invoked that charity was bestowed to the brahmins by the rich and the kings alike. Infact even sivaji ganesan on his 60th or 70th birthday feed a few hundred brahmins. Not because these were poor, but because these were brahmins, and our vellalar icon, felt that he was opening up a gate to heaven by feeding the cross thread wearers. Contrast that with the charities of the jews, wherever they lived. There are sassoon hospitals in northern india started by iraqi jews who were here briefly in the early 20th century. I lose count of the evidence of philanthropy of the jews of toronto – in fact I am told that the fund gathers, literally shame you in front of the community if your purse strings are not loosened enough.
You are correct. One side of the coin is that we are the only upper caste that was allowed to accept charity. But we usually forget the other side. We are not allowed to accumulate wealth, but we MUST give to others, including the non human species. Here again, do we today follow the 'best practice'?

Respect for all human beings: folks/admin tolerate a very high level of intolerance against other communities, in my opinion, because most of us, though may not sympathize with such attitudes, continue to condone its presence. one only has to remember martin noemeller about that incarnation of absolute evil
First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me..
Yes, even though we treasure free speech - I am constantly surprised about the hurtful words thrown at a community without hesitation. This too from folks who claim that they have studied our scriptures! Again, proves my point to include in my list.

QED.

Respect for diversity: I think I have covered it in the above paras.

Now KRS if you had mentioned that the best of our breed qualities which are emulated by NB and which even periyar used to exhort his followers: love of learning, hard work, focus, ambition, motivation, fanatic desire for upward financial mobility (nothing wrong in this, is there?), basically simple living, thrift, mobiliity to any corner of the earth, adaptability to wherever we live, love of family, emancipation of the woman, giving our girls the same opportunities as our boys….i would have had absolutely no problem. Why did you leave these out and focussed on our religion as something to adapt best?

There are other aspects of our religion, which I know you are aware, and could be adapted as the best. I am very insistent, that the best of philosphy should be applicable equally to the brahmn or the dalit. Ie absolutely inclusive and I am quite sure that there is plenty of that lying around in the vedas and tamil hindu hymns....

but the characterestics that you listed.. some of them are to me our culture's weak under belly....
Exactly my point. I think you have misunderstood my posting - most probably I was not clear.

The foundation for our Varna is about serving the humanity. This is as idealistic as any idealism in the world. Brahmins came in to being (not by birth first) to uplift the society. With the degeneration of this concept, we have been violating this original concept. We make money now, yet we still enjoy all the advantages yielded to us by the society (learning, teaching, memory, ability to pick up others' vocation skills etc.) And we revel in our accomplishments. Our charter is not about making money - our charter is more than that.

So, how do we preserve this charter (which seems to me as worthwhile, because we carry that burden), while living in a modern, secular world?This is why I have picked some dimensions of our culture where our behavior does not seem to jive with our forgotten ideals. Just my 2 cents.

The only other issue that I would take mild issue is re corruption. Corruption will exist wherever humans do. in the west, it is at a much higher level and does not affect the common man. Mostly. I sincerely hope that india moves to that stage soon. Maybe not in my life time but perhaps in my childrens?

Thank You.

Regards,
KRS

 

[kunjuppu]

thank you KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sowbhagyavathi amala Ji,
There are millions of peace loving muslims. I love them all as fellow human beings.
The reason that religion is now being viewed suspiciously around the globe, is that, unfortunately over the past few years they have been killing innocent human beings in the name of their god. The 'they' admittedly are a minority, but unlike other fringe extreme elements in other religions, their actions are largely legitimized by fatwas, which are not overturned by the mainstream (if they have been, I have no knowledge of it).

The reason for the Sikh extremism in Punjab to peter out is because that community had decided that enough was enough. When islamic moderates try to speak against the violence, there comes a fatwa against them. What Rushdie had to go through (as well as other notables) was shameful. No one spoke up. Seems to me that whole community owes the world a couple of things:
1. Take out the jihadists
2. Bring your religion to modern standards - if you want to live in a cave etc., fine. But then don't permit your fellow muslims to kill others in the name of your religion.

One can forever debate over the policies of western governments etc., as the cause. But definitely, the solution rests only with that community.

I do not know about other countries. But, in the US, I believe that they are treated fairly well. In fact in my suburb, there is a huge muslim population, with 2 mosques and flourishing well. I do not understand where the witch hunt is happening.

By the way, do you know that a considerable population of muslims still believe that the 9/11 incident was organized by jews?

Regards,
KRS

I second this especially in the recent climate of Muslim witch hunting in the West. I always stand up for them and generalisations about them drive me insane. Which is more than could be said for many of my Hindu brethrens, sadly. Imagine how it would be if we were in their (Muslims) position?

If someone has Punjabi, North Indian ancestry and hate Muslims due to what their families have been through I can totally understand but at the same time I refuse to dislike Muslims just because of their religion. And due to my circumstances I don't have this inherent anti Muslim baggage displayed by many of my Hindu and Sikh friends.

 

[Raghy]

Thank you Shri Raghi, Shru Kunjuppu

Probably, personal experiences of the likes of me reflects the detoriation of our society in general and widening class differences between the time of your stay and the current scenario.

Namaskarams
Revathi

Sow.Ravathi,

Greetings. I think you are comparing 'apples' to 'oranges'. I don't think you could compare 'our' or the boy's habits to that of 'yours' or girl's habits. Boys can be seen more friendly with all and sundries; girls can not be seen so in Tamil Nadu, lest it may be misunderstood as an invitation by some people. "பெண் பிள்ளை சிரித்தால் போச்சு; புகையிலை விரித்தால் போச்சு." Still holds good in most parts of Tamil Nadu. As a lady, you need not express your appreciation in as many words.

That is one more our good quality in Tamil Nadu (it will be true to other states too; but I am only talking about Tamils here, please). - Ladies are not required to say thanks at all. Younger ladies are not required to say anything. If the elderly ladies say "நன்னா/நல்லா இருப்பா!", that is many times more than mere thanks. Come to think of it, In Tamil Nadu, most ladies don't fail to do that either.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS, greetings!

I hope you don't mind this little rascal getting in between your conversation with Amala, I find it hard to resist.

...The reason that religion is now being viewed suspiciously around the globe, is that, unfortunately over the past few years they have been killing innocent human beings in the name of their god.

When it comes to killing innocent human beings the US government stands unparalleled. Even though the Muslims are unfortunate enough to count Osama as one of them, and it is true that some verses in Koran are quite vile, but, the first prize for killing innocent human beings unquestionably belongs to the US government, it stands head and shoulder above any other group sans Nazis.

Just think about it, in a single day, for no rationally defensible reason, on that 6th day of August more than 60 years ago, death visited hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in an instant with thousands more to suffer for years to come, with love from US conveyed by Anola gay.

Skipping long years of CIA intrigue and callous wasting of human life, you don't have to look too far than the Muslim terrorists themselves for the reasons for their terrorism, and they are not entirely religious. Just read the statement of Faisal Shahzad, the Time Square Bomber, and you will see the reasons are not just religious, but secular in many ways.

There is no justification, secular or otherwise, for what Faisal Shahzad attempted to do. He deserves the punishment he got and more. But, for the life of me, I can't see why the Muslim community has to give an explanation for his terrorism. If anyone should, it must be the American Government, ask them for an explanation if you must. Holding the entire Muslim community responsible for such acts is unreasonable. Also, did we hold the Christian community to give an explanation for Timothy McVeigh or the Branch Davidian leader David Koresh? Why then a billion Muslims, for whom there is no single leader or unifying administrative structure like the Cathalic Church, not unlike the Hindus themselves, are required to answer for the acts of criminals who profess to act in the name of Islam?

For a true assessment of the state of Muslims in the U.S. read as many of the articles as you can at this link.

Today, in the aftermath of the election of Obama, the extreme right has arrived at the middle of the American political scene. Nothing is beneath the tactics they are willing to engage in. Most recent example is the case of wrestling down a female protester at an event of Rand Paul, the Kentucky Republican senate candidate, and stomping on her. This is the depth to which the Republican party has sunk.

Another tea-party leader Judson Phillips has called for not voting for Minneapolis Representative Keith Ellison in his reelection merely because he is a Muslim. Read all about it here.

The anti-Islamic bigotry in the U.S. has reached such feverish pitch, thanks to the tea-party and its enablers at Fox News, that even Jewish groups are cautioning against it. Read this op-ed by Abraham Foxman, the National Director of the Anti-Defamation League.

Today, in the U.S., if you are a Muslim, you are guilty, and the onus to prove otherwise is upon the accused, even if you are not a Muslim but just look like one. For these extremists, I look like a Muslim, and I suspect Shri KRS does as well. As long as we keep a low profile, we are alright. But if we try to exercise some of the rights guaranteed under the Constitution of the U.S. like carrying a gun and engaging in some target shooting, then, don't be surprised if you are charged as a terrorist training for committing acts of terrorism, and prosecuted. This has happened. It is not just my fertile imagination. Read all about it here.

If a south-asian, or any Muslim for that matter, is unfortunate enough to be rounded up by the authorities, then, under the present climate of hatred for anything foreign, you better arrange a plea bargain and plead guilty for some reduced charges and spend a few years in prison, or else you risk spending the rest of your life in prison, branded as a Muslim terrorist.

Cheers!

 

[ganeshrev]

Looking at the post I had made earlier, I think what I wanted to convey has been excellently worded by Shri KRS sir as follows:

We need to make sure that we do not let one boy sit on the chair and another sit on the floor based on their birth. How many of us unthinkingly do this often? As much as we hate the treatment of us by others, I really wonder in general whether we really treat others as our true equals or have a patronizing attitude.

Which is what I wanted to convey. I am trying to learn how to put my view points better.

I will just provide one example: (There are many examples which many may relate.)

It is my general habit to observe the human behaviours during marriages and other get-together functions hosted by friends and relatives. I will observe how some of the guests would be treated as non-entities .The following is my thesis:

1. Those guests would invariably of lower economic status or ordinary looking (so to say not strikingly beautiful) or may be somebody who is not inclined towards academics.
2.The hosts do not intentionally mete out this behavior.It is just the way it is. They will say Vango, Sappitela, Vettala Pakku ethukongo,Poyittu varela, Santhosham. That will be the gist of entire interaction.
3.I am not sure if all humans generally tend to behave this way and considered as acceptable in the practical sense. - Some are considered as lesser mortals unconsciously and only some deserve the so called star status.
3. This also does not mean that our culture /vedas/Guru advocate this.Actually it is on the contrary. Some how unknowingly many times we practice this.


My point is , it will be good if we are consciously taught/learn to avoid to such behavior.

I want to write more on this, but I can hear my husband impatiently honking .Will write later

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[sangom]

Smt. Revathi,

What I am writing applies essentially to Indian situations of tambrams. Some 30 or 40 years ago I used to observe that there were a few men and more of women who, though wealthy and of high social status, could move equally with guests of all levels. Probably this trait was there in them because the families were large in those days and some members of the extended family were very poor, but the family ties were strong and an affection was visible in their interaction. Such men were fewer than women because I think usually the menfolk live their official life 24 x 7 and are generally always conscious of their status and position.

Over a period of time, due to many causes, this rapport between the different social classes has become very little and what we now have is just superficial "hallo". One major reason which I find is that there is no common topic for the rich and the poor now; both are in their own different worlds but the well-off people are compelled to invite a few of the others also to functions like marriage.

The reverse holds good when rich or high-status people attend the function at a poor person's house. The guest is accorded a VVIP treatment within the capacity of the host, remains for a few minutes, and then departs. Still it bestows a sort of reflected glory on the poor householder, and he and his family feel immensely satisfied.

We cannot easily alter these social behavioural pattern in our society I think.

One incident to show how status works. Long ago the Sankaracharya of one Mutt had come to TVM. Lots of people thronged for his "darsan" in the mid-noon sun in the vast open grounds of the palace in which the Acharya was staying. Time passed; even after more than 3 hours' waiting, the servants of the Mutt were coming and saying that the Acarya was doing his pooja, doing dhyanam, etc., etc. By about 1.30 P.M. one highly influential and very wealthy couple (Raos) came in their (foreign make) car. The Acarya's manager went running to the road to invite and accompany them and as they neared the verandah of the palace, we could see the Acarya coming out, his face all smiles, to welcome the couple! If money and status can move even sanyasis in this manner, is it not natural that the wealthy and influential people have their own ego? Can we also hope for perfect egalitarianism?

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Ji,
My comments are in 'blue':

Dear Shri KRS, greetings!

I hope you don't mind this little rascal getting in between your conversation with Amala, I find it hard to resist.


When it comes to killing innocent human beings the US government stands unparalleled. Even though the Muslims are unfortunate enough to count Osama as one of them, and it is true that some verses in Koran are quite vile, but, the first prize for killing innocent human beings unquestionably belongs to the US government, it stands head and shoulder above any other group sans Nazis.
Sorry Professor. Wars are dirty business. Collateral damages happen. Except for Japan (which by the way arguments exist on both sides where the conditions of that war existed where all fighting powers targeted the civilian populations of their enemies, I do not think that the US wantonly targeted any civilians for killing. So, your observation is almost obscene.

Just think about it, in a single day, for no rationally defensible reason, on that 6th day of August more than 60 years ago, death visited hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in an instant with thousands more to suffer for years to come, with love from US conveyed by Anola gay.
I agree that President Truman can not justify his action today. Please read:
Debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, irrespective of who is right (despite the ultimatum issued to Japan at the Postdam) the aftermath had these effects, which can not be disputed: More lives were saved. Humans saw the devastation from these bombs and a repeat is impossible from the 'civilized' nations - let us note here this does not include the crazy Jihadists.

Skipping long years of CIA intrigue and callous wasting of human life, you don't have to look too far than the Muslim terrorists themselves for the reasons for their terrorism, and they are not entirely religious. Just read the statement of Faisal Shahzad, the Time Square Bomber, and you will see the reasons are not just religious, but secular in many ways.

Professor this was a quote from my post above:

One can forever debate over the policies of western governments etc., as the cause. But definitely, the solution rests only with that community.

I do not care what a Jihadist's reasons are. WANTONLY killing innocent folks is wrong. In this, the actions of a State can not be equated with those of the terrorists. There is no moral equivalence.

There is no justification, secular or otherwise, for what Faisal Shahzad attempted to do. He deserves the punishment he got and more. But, for the life of me, I can't see why the Muslim community has to give an explanation for his terrorism. If anyone should, it must be the American Government, ask them for an explanation if you must. Holding the entire Muslim community responsible for such acts is unreasonable. Also, did we hold the Christian community to give an explanation for Timothy McVeigh or the Branch Davidian leader David Koresh? Why then a billion Muslims, for whom there is no single leader or unifying administrative structure like the Cathalic Church, not unlike the Hindus themselves, are required to answer for the acts of criminals who profess to act in the name of Islam?
Vow! Just because a community has no central leadership (by their choice), they are given any license to kill? Does this makes sense? If so then, why the 'fundamentalist Hindus' are vilified? Does not make sense.

By the way the usual tired argument about Christian terror, as usual is raised. The difference - the Christians do not support a movement which tries to establish the old Caliphate as these guys are dreaming about. Lots of Christians already have condemned the acts of Timothy M. and Koresh. That's the difference. Can you cite an example of any large scale muslim condemnation of the Jihadist movement? If you do, please post them here. I am ready to change my opinion.

For a true assessment of the state of Muslims in the U.S. read as many of the articles as you can at this link.

Today, in the aftermath of the election of Obama, the extreme right has arrived at the middle of the American political scene. Nothing is beneath the tactics they are willing to engage in. Most recent example is the case of wrestling down a female protester at an event of Rand Paul, the Kentucky Republican senate candidate, and stomping on her. This is the depth to which the Republican party has sunk.
Not pertnent to the discussion at hand. Just a rant based on ideology.

Another tea-party leader Judson Phillips has called for not voting for Minneapolis Representative Keith Ellison in his reelection merely because he is a Muslim. Read all about it here.
We are talking about democracy, Professor. Where does it say that a person can not campaign against a muslim? Is this against the law? On one hand you want to protect free speech at any cost and on the other you want to muffle hate speech. Hate speech is protected by the First amendment. The remedy is the election. Let people decide.

The anti-Islamic bigotry in the U.S. has reached such feverish pitch, thanks to the tea-party and its enablers at Fox News, that even Jewish groups are cautioning against it. Read this op-ed by Abraham Foxman, the National Director of the Anti-Defamation League.

Today, in the U.S., if you are a Muslim, you are guilty, and the onus to prove otherwise is upon the accused, even if you are not a Muslim but just look like one. For these extremists, I look like a Muslim, and I suspect Shri KRS does as well. As long as we keep a low profile, we are alright. But if we try to exercise some of the rights guaranteed under the Constitution of the U.S. like carrying a gun and engaging in some target shooting, then, don't be surprised if you are charged as a terrorist training for committing acts of terrorism, and prosecuted. This has happened. It is not just my fertile imagination. Read all about it here.
Freedom to do anything is not absolute. Minority rights stem from the Majority's consent. They do not exist out there in the absolute. Unless any minority understands this and acts accordingly, their existence will be in peril in any society. This is just the human nature and this is not theoretical. This is not even morality based When one's own existence is threatened, one is even allowed by morality to kill. Let us keep this simple idea based on reality in mind.

If a south-asian, or any Muslim for that matter, is unfortunate enough to be rounded up by the authorities, then, under the present climate of hatred for anything foreign, you better arrange a plea bargain and plead guilty for some reduced charges and spend a few years in prison, or else you risk spending the rest of your life in prison, branded as a Muslim terrorist.
Agreed. All the more reason for the muslim community to take care of this problem in their community.

Cheers!

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri RVR Ji,
Yes, different nationalities have different business characters, based on their cultures. It was no accident that when Professor Deming zcme up with his concept of quality in manufacturing, the Japanese implemented it with a vengeance. Because their culture is about doing something very well, repeatedly. The German culture is about precision. The American culture is about selling and marketing. So, it goes.

I think based on your comment, our culture needs to adapt the best practice "do your duty - design and manufacture the best product possible. And once you do it, let the whole world appreciate it.

Regards,
KRS

Sri KRS ji,

Personally my company is supplying our products to various multinational companies which includes American, British, Japanese and Germans apart from various Indian companies.

Each MNC customer has some unique qualities.

The British customer has decentralized every thing to its Indian subsidiary and it is almost repeat of Indian practices which I don't want to discuss much.

American customer has some good qualities. They are more focussed on their brand building and marketing. An American sales man is capable of selling `refrigerator' to Eskimos. They always concentrate on market share and are highly focussed on improving market share on a continuous basis. The manufacturing unit is mostly a `lean organisation' with very few executives and depend mostly on outsourcing. They treat the suppliers as their business partners and maintain excellent relationships. However they don't interfere in the manufacturing practices at the supplier end and leave it to the suppliers stating that `you are expert in your field and you decide and do whatever you want'.

Our Japanese customer has some unique qualities. At the product development stage, they concentrate very much in to minute details of product design and manufacturing practices. They come to the shop floor of suppliers and get involved in each and every process. They want to ensure that every part coming out of each process is of best quality. They adopt the principle of `poka yoke' Poka-yoke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If we have to translate literally in Tamil, it is செய்வன திருந்த செய்

My German customer has some excellent qualities. Right from product design to manufacture to maintaining consistency of quality they plan and execute every thing in a systematic way. They go into minute details in each and every process and once they achieve the targeted quality/standard, they ensure that it is methodically followed in subsequent production stage. They don't allow us to change the method of manufacture even if a more efficient method is suggested. One has learn work discipline from the Germans.

The above may look like business practices but I earnestly feel that whatever we do in our work place is affected in our personal life also and the vice versa may also be true.

As a society we may not able to adopt best practices collectively but individually we can start adopting the same. Any way society is made up of individuals only.

I would like to hear more from our other colleagues.

All the best

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Sangom Sir,

Thank you .I agree with you.

Smt. Revathi,

We cannot easily alter these social behavioural pattern in our society I think.

I just have a question sir.Based on your experience , is this widespread in other communities or in other countries?

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[sangom]

Shri Sangom Sir,

Thank you .I agree with you.

I just have a question sir.Based on your experience , is this widespread in other communities or in other countries?

Namaskarams
Revathi

Smt. Revathi,

I have hardly any experience of other countries. As for other communities, I would say it is essentially the same here in Kerala but some minor variations may be there.

Basically, with nuclear families staying in flats or bungalows, and involvement of neighbours having come to be viewed as "interference", families (of husband, wife and children) are separate islands in the vast ocean of humanity. Even when physically near to each other mentally they are "separate" and no binding is there between these families. Such rapport requires a lot of give and take, adjustments, etc., which no one is willing to allow now.

Within the nuclear families also we now find each member a separate island and in many houses it is like four or five strangers living together for convenience with very little of closeness between them, especially after the children become teenagers!

Perhaps the increasing emphasis on individuality, freedom, etc., have brought about these changes as by-products.

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Sangom Sir

Thank you.Perhaps the points you have mentioned merits a separate thread and discussion .Right now I will stop since I seem to be deviating from the main topic of adopting best practices from other culture.

Namaskarams
Revathi