Let's try to understand atheism

[C RAVI]

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Dear Shri Ozone,

You need to address the person when you convey a message. Is it addressed to me?

May be to all theists, who wants to understand Atheism.

But, I think, some might have failed to realize that, the purpose of this thread is not to understand Atheism for the purpose of adopting Atheism. The purpose here is to ask Atheists certain questions to see if Theist can make any rational sense out of it, with an open mind.

 

[sravna]

Thanks for the clarification Shri Ozone.

Good point including your one liner. Let me try to get used to those ones

dear Sri Sravna,
In a thread based discussion, I usually do not write to or about a single individual unless it is a question raised to an individual or an answer to a question by an individual (as is the case here).
That to me looks like a personal exchange of information, which is better done in emails or PMs.
it is just a comment made based on the progress of the thread, not intended at any specific individual. Substitute 'you' with 'I' and it becomes my thought.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Sravana Ji,

I am breaking my statement to you that I won't contribute here on the basis of the website you cited.

I hope you would not mind my indulgence here.

Sri Yamaka is a three trick pony in terms of his ideas.

SNA (he keeps on syaing this even though we KNOW that our creator is beyond space and tims and thus 'nature'), PJK (he has no foundation to reject this on any scientific ground) and the 'usefulness' of PBB (he does not understand why mankind over our development has this practice).

So, here he goes with the usual verve of a Theist. Hey, explain to me the proof of God and all the associated three constructs above which we reject (by the way, not on the basis of any scientific study, because these concepts 'obviously are beyond reason') capriciously. Science we believe in today to answer all the questions of the universe - like we know the mechanism in a human body that controls the growth of hair on a human body ONLY to some regions - but, oops - we do not know that yet!

Oh, yes, how about the mysteries of a human being's life and death. My wife, who was in coma, chose to stop her breathing at the exact moment I stepped out of her bed side and the doctor told me that it is a common occurrence - folks choose to go when their dear ones are not around! Now, let Science explain this today.

The issue i have with the Atheists is that somehow they have reduced the miracle of life in to a few calculations of math and science. Just because one can label things to explain how things work, does not mean that one can explain why it should work so. 'Why' is connected to magic and God while 'how' is connected to the mundane.

I agree that Sri Yamaka has not only been supercilious in his responses, he has not provided any adequate answers to your questions. But then it is not surprising - he has shown a pattern of asserting things as true not based on any scientific basis but based on his singular life as an Atheist. He has, though every right to state his opinions here, but we all also understand that his opinions are just not backed up by any scientific evidence.


Regards,
KRS

By failing to give an explanation , Shri Yamaka and other atheists in the forum, are tacitly admitting that they cannot give logical arguments against theism. The response of Shri Yamaka that he is not interested in answering the question is only a way of evading it.

The point is when you call yourself a rationalist, it is not just expecting others to be rational, you need to be one too. Can we now treat all the ramblings of Shri Yamaka in this forum as one without any substance, because all of them were based on the unsubstantiated premise of non existence of God?

 

[renuka]

Oh, yes, how about the mysteries of a human being's life and death. My wife, who was in coma, chose to stop her breathing at the exact moment I stepped out of her bed side and the doctor told me that it is a common occurrence - folks choose to go when their dear ones are not around! Now, let Science explain this today.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS Ji,

Seen this many times..even recently cos my maternal grandmum aged 91 was terminally ill and was comatose for almost 1 week.
I came to see her and sang for her Hanuman Chalisa with the prayer in my heart that "let her go and may she pass away peacefully"

One hour after I left when no one was around her in bed she passed away.

Even my paternal grandmum was terminally ill when I was a medical student and I had come back from India and went to see her in the hospital.
She was in a coma for almost a week too and when I saw her at her bedside..after a while when no one was around she passed away.

So I have had 2 personal experiences in this and when I recently related this to my mother saying that both grandmums only passed away after seeing me last..my son remarked "amma you should be charged with man slaughter charges cos your mere presence made them die"


I feel the hospital is a good training grounds for spirituality.
I have yet to meet an Atheist doctor.

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi Renuka Ji,

I understand. But wait. The Atheists will claim that this a 'biological' phenomenon and not a 'spiritual' one.

If it is 'biological' then based on the survival theory, I would think that the 'being' would pass away at a time of least physical pain. At least at the time when all the physical systems have shut down.

Regards,
KRS

 

[renuka]

Dear Srimathi Renuka Ji,

I understand. But wait. The Atheists will claim that this a 'biological' phenomenon and not a 'spiritual' one.

If it is 'biological' then based on the survival theory, I would think that the 'being' would pass away at a time of least physical pain. At least at the time when all the physical systems have shut down.

Regards,
KRS

Ok let me think like an Atheist now..

1)If you feel that "being" passes away at the time least of physical pain and that almost always coincides with no one being around..that means surrounding relatives were just being a Pain all the while!!LOL


2)Indian movies show people dying in the arms of their loved ones and making uncalled for promises too before death.So its just a coincidence.


Hey not bad yaar..I can think like an Atheist now!!

 

[sravna]

Dear Sri Sravana Ji,

He has, though every right to state his opinions here, but we all also understand that his opinions are just not backed up by any scientific evidence.


Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri KRS,

The forum needs to device an ingenious way to solve this. Whenever a member says something the others need to have the right to ask "why" and the member should be able to explain. Someone has to judge this, may be the moderator or the members themselves and if no satisfactory explanation is given he should not be allowed to proceed further. I think the quality of the discussions would improve considerably because it makes people to think before they utter anything.

The point is freedom of expression should not be unconditional but dependent the extent to which it is used properly.

 

[ozone]

Hey not bad yaar..I can think like an Atheist now!!

well, my fears and suspicions are coming true !!!

Ok, another joke ...
It takes an effort to become one (an Atheist), but easy to stay that way; All you have to do is reject everything that makes sense.

 

[renuka]

Dear Shri KRS,

The forum needs to device an ingenious way to solve this. Whenever a member says something the others need to have the right to ask "why" and the member should be able to explain. Someone has to judge this, may be the moderator or the members themselves and if no satisfactory explanation is given he should not be allowed to proceed further. I think the quality of the discussions would improve considerably because it makes people to think before they utter anything.

The point is freedom of expression should not be unconditional but dependent the extent to which it is used properly.

Sravna dear,

You know this is a risky request cos you see when we Theist use Vedas/Upanishads/Geeta/Ramayan/Mahabharat etc as back up Atheist feel that all fiction and the imagination of someone.
So for all practical purposes they will say that we have no evidence either.

So finally it will be a shouting match only with one side saying "God exists" and another side saying "God doesnt exists"

 

[renuka]

well, my fears and suspicions are coming true !!!

Ok, another joke ...
It takes an effort to become one (an Atheist), but easy to stay that way; All you have to do is reject everything that makes sense.

Dear Ozone,

I am sure you must have come across some riddles in Sanskrit where the intial meaning appears some what contradicting but after rearranging some words the meaning becomes evident..Well same way..just separate the words and that's what I am.

Atheist = A theist

So dont fear!!!

 

[renuka]

It takes an effort to become one (an Atheist), but easy to stay that way; All you have to do is reject everything that makes sense.

So you mean Atheism is Anti Sense..that means Nonsense??

 

[sravna]

Sravna dear,

You know this is a risky request cos you see when we Theist use Vedas/Upanishads/Geeta/Ramayan/Mahabharat etc as back up Atheist feel that all fiction and the imagination of someone.
So for all practical purposes they will say that we have no evidence either.

So finally it will be a shouting match only with one side saying "God exists" and another side saying "God doesnt exists"

Dear Renuka,

The issue is not that they are works of imagination as long as it teaches you good principles. I think the theists too need to bite the bullet and attempt to unearth the logic behind the wisdom.

Let's concede to the request of the atheists that we provide logic and let's see if their own logic can stand up to scrutiny.

That would be better than the present scenario where nothing useful comes out.

 

[ozone]

So you mean Atheism is Anti Sense..that means Nonsense??

All I say is they keep rejecting everything that makes sense (to us);
Of course they make no sense to me

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Atheists say they do not believe in God. Problem with most of the people
is just to keep the people confused and give contradictory statements to
the outside world. Some quietly do prayer at home for their welfare.
But they do Meditation, Yoga, (some) Surya Namaskarams, etc regularly
and eat only Vegetarian food to get the diseases cured and keep healthy.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[renuka]

All I say is they keep rejecting everything that makes sense (to us);
Of course they make no sense to me

So its the same game..the game of rejection..

Like what I wrote in an earlier post today morning.

Neti Neti....Theist reject the Untruth

Neti Neti....Atheist reject the Truth.

 

[prasad1]

well, my fears and suspicions are coming true !!!

Ok, another joke ...
It takes an effort to become one (an Atheist), but easy to stay that way; All you have to do is reject everything that makes sense.

This is not a joke, this is exactly what Republican party does to Obama.

 

[prasad1]

gradation of belief in GOD

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The gradation of belief in God
We all are speaking as if Theist/Atheist are two distinct and discreet events.
It is not, there are various shades of theist (depending on the religion, belief etc).
Similarly there are various shades of Atheist (what they do not want to believe).
I am not picking sides, but I like Kabir das's Kabir Panth, and also Shankaracharya's Advita.
I am not particularly orthodox, and skeptic about most superstitions like astrology. I visit temple and pray for guidance. That is my philosophy I do not expect anyone else to have similar views. So on the chart I might be A1, and Sravnaji might be A10, on the other hand someone might be Z10. We are all over the map. Our positions are comfortable to usus today, but might change in due course of time. We can not change somebody's position for them, it is up to them, and it is a free world.​

 

[renuka]

We should NOT follow Religion blindly but we SHOULD follow God with our eyes closed.

 

[sravna]

Here's another typical argument of atheists:

" It then took another billion years for fish, reptiles and mammals to appear. Then humans, God’s supposed reason for the whole creation, finally came along within the last 200,000 years or so — on one planet orbiting one of the septillions of stars. This seems like a lengthy, complex, massive, and apparently natural process for an omnipotent being that could have simply snapped everything (or just one magic planet) into existence. Using a god as the source of the laws of physics just doesn’t make sense"

My response:

The constructs of space and time exist not without a reason. If the intention of God was to create everything in a moment and make everything disappear in a moment and grant bliss in a moment, there wouldn't be a necessity for the space time constrained physical world. In the first place, why should physical world exist at all? The logical conclusion given the fact that physical world exists and the assumption that there is a timeless world, the whole exercise of the physical world is about how to not get bound by constraints and pass into the timeless world. This is what our scriptures repeated theme is. How to be freed from worldly bondage and get fully liberated. A physical world is a world of cause and effects. A entity bound in a cause and effect reality cannot be eternal because for something to be eternal it has to omniscient and therefore omnipotent. Being omnipotent it should be able to overpower the timeless reality which is a contradiction. Therefore physical reality being a transient reality has to merge with the timeless reality. And the timeless reality being omnipotent is a single and a homogeneous reality. Therefore for the reality freed from the bondage should have to become the same reality as the timeless reality to merge with it. This is nothing but evolving and becoming one with brahman.

The existence of constraints and the way we find out a permanent solution to come out of the constraints so that we are free forever, from a higher perspective can be viewed as what goes into making God's or Godly qualities.

 

[ozone]

A Question to Dear Sravna and Others, (since I am ignorant of this)
Do the Scriptures and/or Puranas provide credence to the concept of evolution that everything started from amoeba and ended with a human being?

 

[prasad1]

We should NOT follow Religion blindly but we SHOULD follow God with our eyes closed.

The AHAH moment for a Advaita philosopher. How do you follow something which is everywhere?

 

[sravna]

A Question to Dear Sravna and Others, (since I am ignorant of this)
Do the Scriptures and/or Puranas provide credence to the concept of evolution that everything started from amoeba and ended with a human being?

There is the concept of spiritual evolution definitely. That should also correspond to evolution in physical forms IMO. Other members may give a definitive answer.

 

[prasad1]

If we believe in Brahman (I do not want to say God) then It is the medium in which everything happens. Just as things happen in the space.

 

[sravna]

If we believe in Brahman (I do not want to say God) then It is the medium in which everything happens. Just as things happen in the space.

A very thoughtful point. Agree with that

 

[Brahin]

We should NOT follow Religion blindly but we SHOULD follow God with our eyes closed.

It looks like 1 simple line but it has a very deep meaning.:first: