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Let's try to understand atheism

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By failing to give an explanation , Shri Yamaka and other atheists in the forum, are tacitly admitting that they cannot give logical arguments against theism. The response of Shri Yamaka that he is not interested in answering the question is only a way of evading it.

The point is when you call yourself a rationalist, it is not just expecting others to be rational, you need to be one too. Can we now treat all the ramblings of Shri Yamaka in this forum as one without any substance, because all of them were based on the unsubstantiated premise of non existence of God?


Dear Sravna and other Theists / Believers:

I am repeating myself again here. I am interested more in the views of India91%. If you all can get into their shoes and view the world, we have something to talk.

India9% (most of you are) is an ambiguous amalgam of various ideas. Their concept of God, Ghosts and Spirits are quite alien to India91% who believe in their hearts

a. Human-like personal Godheads
b. Usefulness of PPB as a form of bribery or "quid pro quo"
c. Truthfulness of JPK.

Someone asks, "Oh Yamaka, use your logic and disprove all the a-c".. My answer is your answer dear Sravna when you wrote, "This comes out of pure Belief or Faith... therefore, it can't be logically disproved or proved".

If any of you Believe in a-c here, please go ahead and make a firm case which you all failed so far (See the God Exists Thread).

I am more into finding Solutions to the Consequence of this Belief and Faith: The Religious Fatalism and the Economic Backwardness of India91%.

While most of you are Fiddling When the Rome is Burning (and calling me names like "Three Trick Pony"- Shame on you!)!

Very sad.

Innum varum....
 
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OK as far as (a) is concerned, my argument is that all that needs to be proven is a supreme super natural being. It can always come in a human form as for example when adharma peaks to set right the situation.

My question to you now is:

Do you believe in an entity existing beyond space and time which is the supernatural entity I am talking about? If not you have to rebut the first cause argument.


Dear Sravna and other Theists / Believers:

I am repeating myself again here. I am interested more in the views of India91%. If you all can get into their shoes and view the world, we have something to talk.

India9% (most of you are) is an ambiguous amalgam of various ideas. Their concept of God, Ghosts and Spirits are quite alien to India91% who believe in their hearts

a. Human-like personal Godheads
b. Usefulness of PPB as a form of bribery or "quid pro quo"
c. Truthfulness of JPK.

Someone asks, "Oh Yamaka, use your logic and disprove all the a-c".. My answer is your answer dear Sravna when you wrote, "This comes out of pure Belief or Faith... therefore, it can't be logically disproved or proved".

If any of you Believe in a-c here, please go ahead and make a firm case which you all failed so far (See the God Exists Thread).

I am more into finding Solutions to the Consequence of this Belief and Faith: The Religious Fatalism and the Economic Backwardness of India91%.

While most of you are Fiddling When the Rome is Burning (and calling me names like "Three Trick Pony"- Shame on you!)!

Very sad.

Innum varum....
 
Dear Sravna and other Theists / Believers:

I am repeating myself again here. I am interested more in the views of India91%. If you all can get into their shoes and view the world, we have something to talk.

India9% (most of you are) is an ambiguous amalgam of various ideas. Their concept of God, Ghosts and Spirits are quite alien to India91% who believe in their hearts

a. Human-like personal Godheads
b. Usefulness of PPB as a form of bribery or "quid pro quo"
c. Truthfulness of JPK.

Someone asks, "Oh Yamaka, use your logic and disprove all the a-c".. My answer is your answer dear Sravna when you wrote, "This comes out of pure Belief or Faith... therefore, it can't be logically disproved or proved".

If any of you Believe in a-c here, please go ahead and make a firm case.

Cheers.

:)

Shri Yamaka,

I am sorry to state that you are repeatedly missing the point here.

Your a-c questioning is not new to all the theists here. This thread is focused on understanding Atheism and not on understanding Theism.

Thus, a question has been asked to see what the answer could be from the Atheist, so that we theist can know the rational explanation of the Atheist and get to understand what is what. If you are really interested to enlighten Theist so that by that way India can improve well as per your humanist aspirations, why don't you answer straight to a clear question raised by Shri.Sravna?
 
"I then go on to explain how other versions of “nothing”—beyond merely empty space—including the absence of space itself, and even the absence of physical laws, can morph into “something.” Indeed, in modern parlance, “nothing” is most often unstable. Not only can something arise from nothing, but most often the laws of physics require that to occur."

I take the above lines from Shri.Nara's quote of a renowned cosmologist on how something can come out of nothing. My understanding is that the something arising even when space is absent can only be from outside of space. I think that is the sort of nothing that is the most suggestive in this case.

Anyway can Shri.Nara throw more light on how he explains that something is created out of nothing?
 
"I then go on to explain how other versions of “nothing”—beyond merely empty space—including the absence of space itself, and even the absence of physical laws, can morph into “something.” Indeed, in modern parlance, “nothing” is most often unstable. Not only can something arise from nothing, but most often the laws of physics require that to occur."

I take the above lines from Shri.Nara's quote of a renowned cosmologist on how something can come out of nothing. My understanding is that the something arising even when space is absent can only be from outside of space. I think that is the sort of nothing that is the most suggestive in this case.

Anyway can Shri.Nara throw more light on how he explains that something is created out of nothing?

Ironically that nothing is considered as everything by us, I mean we call it as brahman
 
Shri Yamaka,

I am sorry to state that you are repeatedly missing the point here.

Your a-c questioning is not new to all the theists here. This thread is focused on understanding Atheism and not on understanding Theism.

Thus, a question has been asked to see what the answer could be from the Atheist, so that we theist can know the rational explanation of the Atheist and get to understand what is what. If you are really interested to enlighten Theist so that by that way India can improve well as per your humanist aspirations, why don't you answer straight to a clear question raised by Shri.Sravna?

Dear Ravi and Sravna:

You say I am repeating myself. I say we all do, if we follow what we said in "God Exists". Because the issues are the SAME. Our positions are the SAME. Nothing has changed. And the Status Quo continues, as it is true for most of India91%.

Because of time constraints, I don't spend much time here (and my computer browser many times refuses to reach this site for some unknown reasons!), here is my simple answer to the questions raised:

1. What was the First Cause of this Universe?: Forces of Nature. Not SNA.

2. What was the First Cause of this Earth?: Forces of Nature. Not SNA.

3. How did it all happen? Specialists/Scientists know it to some extent. They will find all answers in course of time... it's a work in progress.

4. What was the Cause of Our Birth?: Forces of Nature via our Parents.

5. Is Intelligent Design Possible?: No. It's a form of Theism. It's another name for SNA.

6. Is Conscience, Sense of Consciousness, Happiness, Altruism, Humanism etc unique to Theists? No. It's there in ALL of us whether you Believe in SNA or not.

Sadly, the Theists want to believe otherwise... I want to assure them that there are happier MORE humanistic, altruistic Atheists around with good conscience doing great service to Society... Problems come from mostly the Godmen! Lol.

What happened to Swami Nithyananda in TN who was practicing Kundalini Yoga and making his disciples "to float in the air"? or the Godman of Bursana Dorm near Austin, who is a fugitive from Texas law?

7. What drives the Theists?: Mostly their devotion to TRADITON and/or FEAR and/or simple Superstition.

8. What's the Solution?: Higher Education and Logical Thinking and the PROCESS.

Science Engineering & Technology will be the final Savior of the mankind.

Not the IDEA of SNA; PPB is definitely useless and PJK is a hoax.

(Most followers of Abrahamic religions in India do believe in Poorva Janma Karma as a matter of age-old Culture in India, like the Hindus. These people are largely converts from Hinduism in the last 50-100 years because of the oppressing Caste Hierarchy in Hinduism!)

Cheers.

:)

ps. Atheism is nothing but the complete rejection of or opposite of whatever Theists believe. In a sense, if Theism disappears tomorrow, then Atheism will follow suit immediately. Yes, Atheism derives its life from Theism, as per Yamaka! Lol. :)
 
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......ps. Atheism is nothing but the complete rejection of or opposite of whatever Theists believe. In a sense, if Theism disappears tomorrow, then Atheism will follow suit immediately. Yes, Atheism derives its life from Theism, as per Yamaka! Lol.
Dear Y, I have said this before and I shall repeat it again at the risk of being accused of doing exactly the same thing they themselves do so often, i.e., repeat myself. We all are born with no belief at all, but with an innate proclivity to implicitly trust our caregivers. This proclivity is essential for survival and procreation, an evolutionary imperative. It is this proclivity that is mistaken for a gateway to God and the amorphous spirituality. This proclivity, combined with the innate but transparent evolutionary pressure upon the parents to pass on every trick they have been taught for survival, inevitably results in the parents pushing the drug that was pushed upon them, the proverbial opium if you will, in turn, upon their off-springs.

Salman Rushdie in his Midnight's Children observes the children are the vessels into which the parents pour their poison. Karl Marx quotes a report by the Child Employment Commission of 1866 in his Das Capital, albeit in an altogether different context, but no less appropriate in the present context, "It is unhappily, to a painful degree, apparent throughout the whole of evidence, that against no person do children of both sexes so much require protection as against their parents."

This, in its fundamental nature, is the essence of theism. Theism is not a singular ideology, there are infinite variations of it. To one thiest, all others are no more than an athiest in essence, even if they are theists par excellence in their own flavor of theism. To Muslims, all others are Kafirs. To a Brahminist, all others are adharmic. To a Christian, those who don't accept Jesus as Christ are headed to eternal torment. So, to a thiest, an athiest is anybody who entertains doubt, not any doubt, but doubt about their own indcotrinated theistic POV.

Nobody becomes a theist until they are indoctrinated. There is no theist in the whole world who was not taught to be one. On the contrary, the fictional Tarzan, in his natural state, surely was not a theist. Not being a theist is what has come to be called an atheist, for want of a better name. To be an atheist is the natural state, just as long as one does not get contaminated by the society with handed down superstitions, or able to get out of it, in spite of the indoctrination, as some of us have done.

Those who truly wish to understand atheism must first free themselves of socially indoctrinated notions of God, open all the doors and windows of the mind, let ideas through, regardless of source, occidental or the much revered oriental source, and be critical, and be ever ready to reject mere assertions, and equally ready to be persuaded by rational thought whatever the sourcve may be, even if it is the much Brahmin-reviled EVR. In other words, put to the acid test the mere rhetoric that one is open minded.

Cheers!
 
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A Question to Dear Sravna and Others, (since I am ignorant of this)
Do the Scriptures and/or Puranas provide credence to the concept of evolution that everything started from amoeba and ended with a human being?

He is smaller than the smallest and bigger than the biggest (aNoraNIyaM mahato mahIyaM)

Just to add:

From Padma Purana


jalaja nav ìaksàni
sthavara laksa-vimsati
krmayo rudra-sankhyakah
paksinam dasa-laksanam
trimsal-laksàni pasavah
catur-laksani mànusàh

There are 900,000 species living in the water. There are 2,00,000 non-moving living entities [sthavara] such as trees and plants. There are 1,100,000 species of insects and reptiles, and 1,000,000 species of birds. As far as quadrupeds are concerned there are 3,000,000 varieties, and there are 400,000 human species”.


From Brahma Vaivarta Purana.

This description of the different species and the importance of human form of life amongst the living entities have been confirmed by the Brahma Vaivarta Purana in the following verses:

asitim caturas caiva
laksàms tan jìva-jatisu
bhramadbhih purusaih prapyam
mànusyam janma-paryayat
tad apy abhalatam jatah
tesam àtmàbhimaninam
varakanam anastritya
govinda-carana-dvayam

One attains the human form of life after transmigrating through 8,400,000 species by the process of gradual conscious evolution. That human life is spoiled for those conceited fools who do not take shelter of thè lotus feet of Govinda.


 
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Dear brother Nara Ji,

Hope you would not mind my response. If I am repeating myself it is because of the constant barrage here to promote Atheism, with repetition. So the response may also seem repetitive.

A brilliant post, summing up very nicely the foundations of Atheism. Except for one problem. All this is based on assumptions, said or unsaid that are thrown up as 'Truths', but in reality are based on pure opinions that have an open agenda.

The agenda of course is to eradicate all religions (this is like wishing for the eradication of all cultures and replace it with a culture of 'equality' and 'justice') and replace them with 'Science'. The reason for the agenda? Like all idealistic systems a totally absurd and mistaken idea that religions are evil and cause of all the misery in the world. And a system based on 'rational' thinking supported by science will be ideal. But when one examines such ideas, one quickly realizes that religions, were developed and instituted at a time of human development, when equality, humanism etc. were not even thought about. These individualistic concepts came up spurred by religions at times when egalitarianism became an asset to the societies. Add to this the basic nature of man where good and evil exist and will exist, as mankind's struggles within themselves. A lot of the evils perpetuated in modern times are by the so called idealistic societies based on Atheism and Communism.
So, the general assumption that somehow Atheism prevents/lessens violence is unsubstantiated. In fact, it can be argued convincingly that Atheists societies tend to replace Theist Gods with Men, who are revered as Gods. My hypothesis is that this happens because Mankind is wired to have some all powerful symbol in their lives.

Another reason for the agenda is that once religions are gone, then all the 'inequalities' will vanish from the face of the earth. Again, this is a very immature view, because the development of mankind is slow and steady and driven by mankind itself from within. No external system is going to change the basic present condition of a human being, if it is forced. And, today and for a long time to come, that sort of social engineering can only happen by force. So, this assumption is also plainly invalid.

Now to the claim that a child is born without any religion and the parents fill it with 'poison'. When one thinks about this, this assertion is not only based on the wrong assumptions stated above, but actually misdirects. Tarzan might not be a Theist, however that does not mean he necessarily had to be an Atheist. He could have been a very deep spiritual person, venerating the forest itself. As I have said before, religion is taught to a receptive child like language and culture to satisfy that deep spiritual need, as the current research is starting to show. This an intuitive conclusion as can be inferred by the fact that even today, Atheism remains a minor religion. Again, it shows lack of respect to humanity, when they assume that somehow if a Theist sees the light they will automatically become Atheists! In fact, there are instances of the opposite that are recorded. So the claim that people abuse their children with theism is not only absurd, but offensive as well. Given a chance, the same folks who claim this, if they think that different languages and cultures are reasons that make people go to war, they will claim such 'indoctrinations' are also evil. Come to think of it, that may be their next claim. And a World government. They have no respect for diversity. Here is an example of a modern state implementing Atheism:

I do not think that the Atheists have thought through their own ideology. It only exists to oppose all religions and they do not understand the fact that tomorrow if religions all were to disappear, people will not be Atheists. They will become anarchists.

Regards,
KRS
Dear Y, I have said this before and I shall repeat it again at the risk of being accused of doing exactly the same thing they themselves do so often, i.e., repeat myself. We all are born with no belief at all, but with an innate proclivity to implicitly trust our caregivers. This proclivity is essential for survival and procreation, an evolutionary imperative. It is this proclivity that is mistaken for a gateway to God and the amorphous spirituality. This proclivity, combined with the innate but transparent evolutionary pressure upon the parents to pass on every trick they have been taught for survival, inevitably results in the parents pushing the drug that was pushed upon them, the proverbial opium if you will, in turn, upon their off-springs.

Salman Rushdie in his Midnight's Children observes the children are the vessels into which the parents pour their poison. Karl Marx quotes a report by the Child Employment Commission of 1866 in his Das Capital, albeit in an altogether different context, but no less appropriate in the present context, "It is unhappily, to a painful degree, apparent throughout the whole of evidence, that against no person do children of both sexes so much require protection as against their parents."

This, in its fundamental nature, is the essence of theism. Theism is not a singular ideology, there are infinite variations of it. To one thiest, all others are no more than an athiest in essence, even if they are theists par excellence in their own flavor of theism. To Muslims, all others are Kafirs. To a Brahminist, all others are adharmic. To a Christian, those who don't accept Jesus as Christ are headed to eternal torment. So, to a thiest, an athiest is anybody who entertains doubt, not any doubt, but doubt about their own indcotrinated theistic POV.

Nobody becomes a theist until they are indoctrinated. There is no theist in the whole world who was not taught to be one. On the contrary, the fictional Tarzan, in his natural state, surely was not a theist. Not being a theist is what has come to be called an atheist, for want of a better name. To be an atheist is the natural state, just as long as one does not get contaminated by the society with handed down superstitions, or able to get out of it, in spite of the indoctrination, as some of us have done.

Those who truly wish to understand atheism must first free themselves of socially indoctrinated notions of God, open all the doors and windows of the mind, let ideas through, regardless of source, occidental or the much revered oriental source, and be critical, and be ever ready to reject mere assertions, and equally ready to be persuaded by rational thought whatever the sourcve may be, even if it is the much Brahmin-reviled EVR. In other words, put to the acid test the mere rhetoric that one is open minded.

Cheers!
 
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Dear brother Nara Ji,


I do not think that the Atheists have thought through their own ideology. It only exists to oppose all religions and they do not understand the fact that tomorrow if religions all were to disappear, people will not be Atheists. They will become anarchists.

Regards,
KRS

Good point Shri. KRS Ji.
 
Dear Ravi and Sravna:

1. What was the First Cause of this Universe?: Forces of Nature. Not SNA.

2. What was the First Cause of this Earth?: Forces of Nature. Not SNA.

:)

You need to explain again what created such forces? That is the crux of the problem.
 
b. Usefulness of PPB as a form of bribery or "quid pro quo"

Innum varum....

Praying is not bribing because God considers every soul as equal whether you pray or not. The question of bribery comes only when God is partial to someone who prays. This is consistent with the philosophy that everything constantly evolves by doing the right thing at the right time. It is just that at some stage of your evolution you feel the presence of God and begin to interact with Him. It is like a child interacting with its father and mother. Won't they fulfill the requirements of the child when asked? Everyone do reach that stage.
 
Praying is not bribing because God considers every soul as equal whether you pray or not. The question of bribery comes only when God is partial to someone who prays. This is consistent with the philosophy that everything constantly evolves by doing the right thing at the right time. It is just that at some stage of your evolution you feel the presence of God and begin to interact with Him. It is like a child interacting with its father and mother. Won't they fulfill the requirements of the child when asked? Everyone do reach that stage.
The reference here could be to the concept of Praying or asking for favours and doing something in return when that expectation has been fulfilled. Like a visit to a temple or an offering when a milestone in life has been reached, a success in examination or a promotion in job etc.,. These are doing on the volition of the individual or through some one. These could be interpreted as a bribery because there is an expectation and offering, but it isnt because both are initiated by the individual and there was no negotiation involved. Some people think about offering a part of their profit from a venture to charity and they do it if such an event materialises. By the same interpretation, would this also become bribery?
 
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The reference here could be to the concept of Praying or asking for favours and doing something in return when that expectation has been fulfilled. Like a visit to a temple or an offering when a milestone in life has been reached, a success in examination or a promotion in job etc.,. These are doing on the volition of the individual or through some one. These could be interpreted as a bribery because there is an expectation and offering, but it isnt because both are initiated by the individual and there was no negotiation involved. Some people think about offering a part of their profit from a venture to charity and they do it if such an event materialises. By the same interpretation, would this also become bribery?

Dear Ozone,

Bribery implies that the person who takes the offer, does the favor for that offer. But that cannot be said in the case of God's actions. It is only for our own satisfaction that we make the offer given our own way of thinking. Maybe God wants to look like consenting in this to satisfy the feelings of His devotee? But would God really need a bribe? Definitely not as He is above the need to be satisfied. His concern and love is unconditional
 
Dear Ozone,

Bribery implies that the person who takes the offer, does the favor for that offer. But that cannot be said in the case of God's actions. It is only for our own satisfaction that we make the offer given our own way of thinking. Maybe God wants to look like consenting in this to satisfy the feelings of His devotee? But would God really need a bribe? Definitely not as He is above the need to be satisfied. His concern and love is unconditional
The irony I am having trouble is with rejecting God on one hand, and accusing him of quid pro quo on the other. In other words God does not exist, but is being bribed.
 
The irony I am having trouble is with rejecting God on one hand, and accusing him of quid pro quo on the other. In other words God does not exist, but is being bribed.

In other words Shri.Yamaka has a notion of an ideal being in mind. It indeed suggests that he prefers such idealism. But denies that such a being can exist. So we can say that only at the pragmatic level he is an atheist but heart of hearts he too is a theist and given the right experience he will begin to see God.
 
Atheists claim that Theists have imaginary SNA and an imaginary bribing game. PPB's are outcome of this imaginary bribing game and PJK is the hoax to back up failed bribery.

LOL!!!! Much interesting... :)
 
From my mail box:
One may argue, "You devotees are dying, and the non-devotees are also dying, so what is the difference?" There is a difference. A cat catches her kitten in its mouth, and it also catches the mouse in its mouth. Superficially we may see that the cat has caught both the mouse and the kitten in the same way. But there are differences of catching. The kitten is feeling pleasure: "Oh, my mother is carrying me." And the mouse is feeling death: "Oh, now I'm going to die." This is the difference. So, although both devotees and non-devotees die, there is a difference of feeling at the time of death—just like the kitten and the mouse.
 
So, although both devotees and non-devotees die, there is a difference of feeling at the time of death—just like the kitten and the mouse.

I agree but only in case of death cos of old age and in a painless way.
In any other type of painful death..dont be surprised to hear even Theist yelling "God why did you forsake me?"

Death is a transition but the process of dying can be painful.
 
We generally see people wearing a Ring in a particular finger with some Special Stones
according to their choice as per their horoscope or numerology, whatever it is, assuming
that such stones will bring special fortunes to them. No doubt, it is one's own faith in
the miracle stone that helps that person and not the stone itself. If the faith can lead
to the stone to get miracle, why can't they have faith in the God to get miracles in their
life.

In order to explain to the ordinary human being in a language that he/she understands in those
days, the Great Rishis and Puranas narrated the concept of God and suggested the method
of worship. Secondly, these days, it is not possible to do penance at the foot of the hills
and there is no need too, if one can understand the Supreme Power of Almighty.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
We all are born with no belief at all

We are also born without any knowledge at all. But that does not prevent us from gaining knowledge of the world around us.

but with an innate proclivity to implicitly trust our caregivers. This proclivity is essential for survival and procreation, an evolutionary imperative.

There is no rational answer as to how that implicit trust occurs, so the attempt is merely to assert that spirituality or religiosity is somehow dependent on implicit trust.

It is this proclivity that is mistaken for a gateway to God and the amorphous spirituality.

Connecting the unconnectable as pointed out above.

This proclivity, combined with the innate but transparent evolutionary pressure upon the parents to pass on every trick they have been taught for survival, inevitably results in the parents pushing the drug that was pushed upon them, the proverbial opium if you will, in turn, upon their off-springs.

Somehow hypothesising that the parents were never smart enough to separate the chaff from the grain inspite of whole lifetime experience. Throw in the words like drugs or opium etc... well makes an interesting reading, but lacks depth.

Salman Rushdie in his Midnight's Children observes the children are the vessels into which the parents pour their poison. Karl Marx quotes a report by the Child Employment Commission of 1866 in his Das Capital, albeit in an altogether different context, but no less appropriate in the present context, "It is unhappily, to a painful degree, apparent throughout the whole of evidence, that against no person do children of both sexes so much require protection as against their parents."

Appears like "atheists veda". Because Salman Rushdie says so or Karl Marx says so, it should be so. Again quotation such as "no person require more protection from others than their parents" (paraphrasing) is just an attempt to enforce the opinion of Karl Marx etc. as unimpeachable authority... that is another set of "inerrant text" in lieu of the existing scriptural texts.

This, in its fundamental nature, is the essence of theism. Theism is not a singular ideology, there are infinite variations of it. To one thiest, all others are no more than an athiest in essence, even if they are theists par excellence in their own flavor of theism. To Muslims, all others are Kafirs. To a Brahminist, all others are adharmic. To a Christian, those who don't accept Jesus as Christ are headed to eternal torment. So, to a thiest, an athiest is anybody who entertains doubt, not any doubt, but doubt about their own indcotrinated theistic POV.

Nice attempt to confuse the issue and also to bring in the favourite "brahminist" theme. But I would go by the dictionary definition of a theist and an atheist.

Nobody becomes a theist until they are indoctrinated.

And nobody becomes an atheist until he is indoctrinated that he was previously indoctrinated as a theist.

On the contrary, the fictional Tarzan, in his natural state, surely was not a theist.

Giving the example of a fictional Tarzan is no more credible than quoting puraNas to prove that Indra cut off the wings of the mountains.

Not being a theist is what has come to be called an atheist, for want of a better name.

Wonder why the atheists could not be the "path finders" to such a simple task of a new word formation?

To be an atheist is the natural state, just as long as one does not get contaminated by the society with handed down superstitions, or able to get out of it, in spite of the indoctrination, as some of us have done.

Invoking natural state? Why brush teeth then? Why not be natural there too?

Those who truly wish to understand atheism must first free themselves of socially indoctrinated notions of God, open all the doors and windows of the mind, let ideas through, regardless of source, occidental or the much revered oriental source, and be critical, and be ever ready to reject mere assertions, and equally ready to be persuaded by rational thought whatever the sourcve may be, even if it is the much Brahmin-reviled EVR. In other words, put to the acid test the mere rhetoric that one is open minded.

What the atheist should realise is that notwithstanding frequent appeals to "rational thinking", he should also be truthful to acknowledge that as on date non-existence of God is also not proved conclusively and he requires hedging such as 99.4% God is not there, I am a theoretical agnostic but a practical atheist etc.

Regards,

P.S.: I may not be able to follow up with the continuation of this thread.
 
..... Except for one problem. All this is based on assumptions, said or unsaid that are thrown up as 'Truths', but in reality are based on pure opinions that have an open agenda.
Oh brother, I am shocked, shocked I say, I have been under the impression you took everything I say as the absolute truth and nothing but the truth, all this while!!!!! :) :)

Let us now look at some of the undeniable truths that are based on incontrovertible evidence littered generously throughout your post.
  • The agenda of course is to eradicate all religions (this is like wishing for the eradication of all cultures and replace it with a culture of 'equality' and 'justice') and replace them with 'Science'.
  • The reason for the agenda? Like all idealistic systems a totally absurd and mistaken idea that religions are evil and cause of all the misery in the world.
  • A lot of the evils perpetuated in modern times are by the so called idealistic societies based on Atheism and Communism.
  • So, the general assumption that somehow Atheism prevents/lessens violence is unsubstantiated.
  • In fact, it can be argued convincingly that Atheists societies tend to replace Theist Gods with Men, who are revered as Gods.
  • Another reason for the agenda is that once religions are gone, then all the 'inequalities' will vanish from the face of the earth.
  • Again, this is a very immature view, because the development of mankind is slow and steady and driven by mankind itself from within.
  • No external system is going to change the basic present condition of a human being, if it is forced.
  • And, today and for a long time to come, that sort of social engineering can only happen by force.
Well, there was more, I will stop with this.

When sweeping statements are made about assumptions, agenda, attitude, maturity, etc., then the decibel level gets too high for a reasonable discussion.

Anyway, let me explain why I even made a post in this thread. I noticed that an army was after dear Y. I wanted to express my support and encouragement to him, not on the basis of tribal solidarity, but because I broadly agree with his views, though we have our own disagreements on some details. This the reason I addressed my post to Y.

Cheers!
 
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