Life in Vaikundam / Kailash

[RVR]

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Prof Nara ji,

Your knowledge of Sri Vaishnavam is amazing.

Personally I believe in Saranagathi philosophy to the God Almighty.

Because of such a deep and strong belief in God, I don't believe Godmen.

Thanks for your enlightening article.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Good Morning Sri Nara Ji,

Thank you very much for the reply. I have a few questions. Wud be delighted for a reply, but only if time permits at your end. Hope am not being difficult in asking these things.

The only reason given for the cycle of shrushti and pralayam is "leela".

According to Visihtadvaitam there are three entities that are eternal, not created and beginningless. They are (i) Chetana i.e. jeevathamas, (ii) achetana, and (iii) Iswara. Creation refers only to giving form and body. Creation does not entail creation of jeevathmas or achethana -- the basic material pervaded by three gunas that is the building block of all sareera.

If creation does not entail creation of jeevathmas, and are considered beginingless, then would there be a conflict with science that considers human life as having come to exist on earth only from a certain time period onwards?

Eons before human life, there were other forms of life (beginning with primitive forms in the proterozoic age)...so perhaps cud one consider 'jeevatmas' as souls having existed in other physical forms before (like say plants in the cretaceous period), and not necessarily always as human form --- wud such a concept be considered as a conflict with Visihtadvaitam?

Visishtadvaitam explains time as Vibhu or omnipresent. This means it is present both in "leela vibhoothi" (material universe) and "nithya vibhoothi" Sri Vaikuntam. In leela vibhoothi time causes change to the achetanas pervaded by three gunas. However, time in nithya vibhooti, even though it is present, has no such power. For example, flower will never go wilted in Sri Vaikuntam. The body of the residents of Sri Vaikuntam will never age.

Time being omnipresent is consistent with science. However, currenty, astrophysists explain the sun as something that can swell in size due to its own system of burning of gases, the earth as moving away from the sun due to a change in gravitational forces, etc.....(they showed it in this programe: History Asia - The Universe: The End Of The Earth: Deep Space Threats to Our Planet ) meaning there is the possibility that 'reality' as we see it and 'time' as we understand it is subject to change. Is there any such concept in Visishtadvaitam?

Time in nitya vibhooti reminds me of the description given by Yogananda Paramahansa by his 'deceased' guru in the Autobiography of a Yogi (the description given in the book is the same as what you have mentioned). Perhaps this will remain an unexplorable area by physics...

The concept of Dharmabhootha Jnanam is unique to Visihtadvaitam. It is not accepted by any other school. In its essence it is achethana. It is a substance that is part and parcel of Jeevathama. It is this jnanna through which the jeevathma perceives the external world. The Dharmabhootha jnanam is covered up by karma and limits its reach. Once free of karma, i.e. in moksha, the dharmabhootha jnana of Jeevathma comes to full bloom and the Jeevathma becomes omniscient just like Iswara.

In advaitham too once free of karma, a soul in moksha becomes one with Iswara or like Iswara. Are there any subtle differences in the concept of 'Iswara' of Visihtadvaitam from the 'Iswara' of advaitham ? Am curious abt what is the explanation given in advaitha abt the "way" or 'method' in which the jeevathma preceives the external world (will ask the yogis i know).


What I have expressed here are not my views, they are strictly the views of the proponents of Visihtadvaita. My views are well known in this forum.

Your serving explanatory knowledge to others ,relevant to the topic eventhough you may not subscribe to the views is really welcome.

yes, its a rare and very admirable quality.

 

[RVR]

Can any of the present day Godmen take me to Vaikuntam and/or Kailash. (Not Srivaikuntam or Mount Kailash). Is the present passport a valid travel document? Can the Godmen arrange Visa for me? Do I have to carry any currency and if so what currency and how to get it?

 

[renuka]

The journey is very simple, no formalities.
Passport not needed
Visa not needed
Vimanam not needed
Currency not needed
Vaccination not needed

Important!: Physical Body(excess baggage) strictly not allowed

Requirements:
All Jeevaatmas who have churned the ocean of existence, expelled the toxicity of the worldly attachment and drank the ambrosia of immortality are entitled to embark on the journey to Vaikuntha.


i am just being lighthearted.
hope you like what i wrote.

 

[happyhindu]

Can any of the present day Godmen take me to Vaikuntam and/or Kailash. (Not Srivaikuntam or Mount Kailash). Is the present passport a valid travel document? Can the Godmen arrange Visa for me? Do I have to carry any currency and if so what currency and how to get it?

Sir,

Godmen are but godmen (may also include pontiffs of mutts by a larger way of definition) with 'limited' ability.

i suppose its one's own karma that decides where one goes.

Swami Raghavendra of mantralayam performed many so-called unnatural 'miracles' in His bodily form, yet He could not destain for everyone's desires to become fruitful...

Mahavtar Babaji appears and disappears at will to select faithfuls, yet He probably cannot influence Iran from changing its nuclear ambitions or get USA out of Iraq..

Swami Vivekanand and Yogananda could only foresee and avert difficulties in the lives of some certain devotees, but they could not change everyone's lives on earth...

Sri Anjaneya, the all-knowing one, could not identify the Sanjeevani herb thru his miraculous abilities, nor could He bring Lakshman back to life, all He was "destained" to do was to carry a mountain...

its all the destiny of an atma's karma perhaps....and if it were so, forget godmen, one can ask is there 'god' at all? Reminds me of the quote, karmevaguruishwara...

 

[RVR]

The journey is very simple, no formalities.
Passport not needed
Visa not needed
Vimanam not needed
Currency not needed
Vaccination not needed

Important!: Physical Body(excess baggage) strictly not allowed

Requirements:
All Jeevaatmas who have churned the ocean of existence, expelled the toxicity of the worldly attachment and drank the ambrosia of immortality are entitled to embark on the journey to Vaikuntha.


i am just being lighthearted.
hope you like what i wrote.

Your requirements seems to be very tough. I want a easy way out. Probably Godmen or his agents can suggest easy methods.

 

[renuka]

OK sir,
why dont you try this: Vaikuntha is as far from you as you think it is and as near to you as you think it is.

Vaikuntha is verily in you. Look within and not without.
Godman you are looking for is verily yourself.
only you can find the way. no one can take you there.

 

[DURGADASAN]

VAIKUNDA or KAILASH- Anywhere it be, those are like chronicles of Narnia. Thats an entirely different world. You may be knowing these things from puranas or pasurams or thevaram. Appar swami's thirukailaya description will be such fantastic. But be sure in one thing. Even I can explain you like this and that. But you only can feel it in person.

"KAndavar Vindilar
Vindavar Kandilar"

So, noone has the capability to say the real nature of this. If I say you according to the purana, vaikunda is 30,00,000 km area. Will it be OK? Can we restrict the abode of god into such a small area???

All the posts here are mere suggestions and nothing has clearly depicted how kailash or vaikundam will be. Also, if anyone says that will be sure under suspicion. Be clear yourself green.

"kadamaiai sei; palanai edirparkadae"

If there is a real vaikundam or kailash, the god himself will take you there. Will arrange a circular trip to you with 2 nights- 3 days staying in star hotel with all luxurious facilities, with tax-free payments. (Sight seeing fee, entrance fee- separate).

Pranams

 

[RVR]

Durga,

I have read about Sundara Moorthi Nayanar and Cheraman were taken to kailash.

Both Sambandhar and Appar have composed more songs on Lord Shiva as compared to Sundaramoorthi Nayanar. Still Lord Shiva always had a soft corner for Sundarar. Lord Shiva suggested to Sundarar two times the first lines of the songs, `Pitha pirai soodi' and `Thillai Vaazh Andhanarthem Adiyarku Adiyen'.

I fully understand that unless Lord himself takes us we cannot reach there.

All the best

Just I was kidding whether any short cut is available through present day Godmen.

 

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To All and RVJI I am happy you are back. The Vaikundam and Kailash is within you. A person can sit for deep meditation and go for astral Travel he will see all wonders of Gods Creation, this experience is some thing which cannot expl by words. From the eye centre all this region starts and in deep meditation one can progress step by step and enjoy the Vaikund or Kailash,Manasarover,Juvalamuki etc., Our Tamil Siddhers enjoyed this phenomenal journey and to help mankind(Philanthropist) they said in their songs. If a person started deep meditation and automatically he will gain experience in astral Travel and so on., Kandavar Vendilar, Vendavar Kandilar. S.r.k. For Sri C.Ravi you asked a question and due to my system failure I could not answerd. Kindly repect the questine and I try to answer. S.R.K.

 

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To Green Trees Sir, Once the Soul left the Body it will enter in another Body as per the Karmas(incl balanceess of previous births Karmas) the soul may born as Tree, an ainimal, as a bird, as a fish and from 84 laks species. There no guarentee for a Human Birth. Only washed out of Karmas that soul will merge with the Lord,(Light of Ocean) after that no Birth and Death. S.R.K.

 

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To Green Trees Sir, Once the Soul left the Body it will enter in another Body as per the Karmas(incl balanceess of previous births Karmas) the soul may born as Tree, an ainimal, as a bird, as a fish and from 84 laks species. There no guarentee for a Human Birth. Only washed out of Karmas that soul will merge with the Lord,(Light of Ocean) after that no Birth and Death. S.R.K.

 

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To RV ji, your reply no 34 no short Cut route is there, but a grand trunk road is free to Travel and to reach the Destination. that is inward journy with in you and you can enjoy the Gods creation. s.r.k.

 

[RVR]

To RV ji, your reply no 34 no short Cut route is there, but a grand trunk road is free to Travel and to reach the Destination. that is inward journy with in you and you can enjoy the Gods creation. s.r.k.

SRK sir,

I am not attempting short cut. I just wanted to know whether any living Godmen know short cut route.

Let us not attempt short cut. Let us follow the time tested regular route.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

I just wanted to know whether any living Godmen know short cut route.

Perhaps even God cannot intervene when man's own karmaphala has not fructified to the extent of being granted a shortcut.....all depending on what one wishes to define as "god" - as an external entity, as his own antaryami, as his karma index, or as anything else he chooses to....

Best wishes.

 

[RVR]

Perhaps even God cannot intervene when man's own karmaphala has not fructified to the extent of being granted a shortcut.....all depending on what one wishes to define as "god" - as an external entity, as his own antaryami, as his karma index, or as anything else he chooses to....

Best wishes.

Among TB community there are Smarthas who believe Jeevathma and Paramartha are one and the same. Vaishavites believe Jeevathma can become Paramathma by devotion, surrender and good word. Madhva's believe in Dwaitha philosophy where jeevathma and paramathma are different.

Adhi Sankarar, Ramanujar and Madhvachariar are all very great philosophers in their own right. Their philosophies are followed for more than one thousand years and are eternal.

I just wanted to distinguish present day Godmen from them.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Among TB community there are Smarthas who believe Jeevathma and Paramartha are one and the same. Vaishavites believe Jeevathma can become Paramathma by devotion, surrender and good word. Madhva's believe in Dwaitha philosophy where jeevathma and paramathma are different.

Adhi Sankarar, Ramanujar and Madhvachariar are all very great philosophers in their own right. Their philosophies are followed for more than one thousand years and are eternal.

I just wanted to distinguish present day Godmen from them.

All the best

Sir,

If i can request, can we keep godmen out of this thread, since you are frequently referring to that one subject alone on this thread...

Btw sir, the philosophies are considered older than the gurus you have mentioned.

Best regards.

 

[Nara]

Hello HH, Greetings to you.

.... Wud be delighted for a reply, but only if time permits at your end. Hope am not being difficult in asking these things.

As a tenured professor it seems time is all I have left a lot of. I love to answer questions, it makes me feel important

Hope I don't turn out to be like the river side Reluctant Guru of R.K. Narayan

If creation does not entail creation of jeevathmas, and are considered beginingless, then would there be a conflict with science

[..]

..so perhaps cud one consider 'jeevatmas' as souls having existed in other physical forms before (like say plants in the cretaceous period), and not necessarily always as human form --- wud such a concept be considered as a conflict with Visihtadvaitam?

First and foremost, proponents of Visishtadvaitam are unconcerned about science - their only concern is fidelity to Shashthras.

According to Vedanta, this universe has gone through countless maha pralayas and shrusti. Therefore, when a scientist talks about cretaceous period the Vedantin will say in this present shurshti.

Badda Jeevas may exist in an embodied form or not. During Mahapralaya (there are some smaller pralayas and none of these pralayas affect Sri vaikuntam in any way) all the badda jeevas are in suspended state.

Shrushti has two stages, samasthi struchti and vyaktha shrushti. Sriman Narayana takes care of the samasthi srushti at the end of which he creates Brahmma, which is like appointing a selected jeeva to be Brahmma. Then he teaches the four vedas to him and commands him go about with vyaktha srushti, namely, creating the worlds and bodies for jeevas, according to their karma.

These bodies can be a plant, a bacteria, a virus, or anything. In fact, anything that has a form and name has a jivathma. Rivers have jeevathma. Your dinner plate has a jeevathma. Yogurt pot has a jeevathmna - remember the story of Dhadhipandan who demanded moksham from Sri Krishna and wouldn't let go of his hands until his wish was granted.

This is why a human form is considered a great gift because you have an opportunity to perform saranagathi and get moksha.

Death for animate bodies is known. Death for inanimate objects with name and form is when they break or otherwise loose their form or function. Then the jeeva is released like the jeeva in a human body is released.

In advaitham too once free of karma, a soul in moksha becomes one with Iswara or like Iswara. Are there any subtle differences in the concept of 'Iswara' of Visihtadvaitam from the 'Iswara' of advaitham ?

There are major differences.

Per advaitam there is only one eternal, Iswara, as opposed to three in Visihtadvaitam, chetana, achetana, and Iswara.

The Ekathvam of Adaitins is quite extreme. Iswara is understood as pure consciousness, devoid of any qualities. There is nothing other than the consciousness. This is referred to as Nirguna Brahmam.

There is a corresponding Saguna Brahmam, like Brahmma, Vishnu, Sivan and other gods. All these are completely false like a dream or reflection. Moksham is through this jnana. Worship of saguna brahmman in all the various forms can help overcome the false reality.

Visishtadvatees claim Iswara is an ocean of auspicious qualities. Ramanuja says Iswara is कल्याण गुण गण महार्ण्वां

Visihtadvaitam says Jiva and Iswara are separate, but inseparable, like body and soul, that cannot be separate as long as you are alive. Likewise, Jiva and Iswara are inseparable, for ever.

In Sri vaikunta Jiva does not become the same as Iswara (note Sri RV sir), but becomes equal to him only in respect of omniscience and bliss.

Hope this clarifies at least a little.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Nara Ji,

Thank you very much for the above post. The second part is sort of intensive for me. Will need to read up well. I will get back to you shortly.

Thanks much again.

 

[RVR]

In Sri vaikunta Jiva does not become the same as Iswara (note Sri RV sir), but becomes equal to him only in respect of omniscience and bliss.

Prof Nara ji,

My knowledge of vishitadvaidham is limited. Thanks for enlightening me.

Kulasekhara Azhwar pleads with Thiruvengadathan in his Pasurams that in the next birth he should be born as soil to be touched by your lotus feet, steps in your temple, a pillar in your sanndithi, grass, worm, fish in your temple tank, water spring etc. Now I understand that he never wants to be Lord Himself but attached to Lord in any form. Is his Pasurams explains Vishitadhvaidam more clearly.

Present day Godmen claiming himself as an Avatar of God or representative of God is a total non-sense if we understand Vishitadhvaidham fully.

All the best

 

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To Nara ji your reply is always very long and not matching with real spiritual aspects. I think you are a Vaisanavate thats why your answers confuseing and also depending dwaitha policy. One means no problem,like advitham. Two means more problem like Dwaitham, Total problem means vishitavaitam. So the jeeathamma once get relief from the clutches of Maya it will merge with the source. After that no birth and death. s.r.k.

 

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To All: So priceless is this Birth.
So priceless is this birth,O brother,
That by assumingit,the Supreme Lord can be met,
The soul herein drinks the nectar of love,
And enjoys the bliss of eternal union.
The soul comes to be absorbed in God and regains
The heritage of immortal treasure in its entirety.
She touches and see the Lord directly;
On meeting the Supreme Lord, she merges in him.
Such a birth cannot be obtained again, O man,
Why dost thou waste this jewel? sayeth Dadu.

DADU,The compassionate Mystic. s.r.k.

 

[Raghy]

To Nara ji your reply is always very long and not matching with real spiritual aspects. I think you are a Vaisanavate thats why your answers confuseing and also depending dwaitha policy. One means no problem,like advitham. Two means more problem like Dwaitham, Total problem means vishitavaitam. So the jeeathamma once get relief from the clutches of Maya it will merge with the source. After that no birth and death. s.r.k.

Sri S.R.K,

Sri Nara's write ups are nothing but spiritual. Sri Naran is not confusing with Dwaitha principles at all. Advaitham does not mean 'one'. It means 'not two'. As the name says, it can be any number, but not two. To step away from 'maya' or illusions are not esay. To understand Sankara's Advaitham principles, one has to give up all attachments. That includes attachment to religion. It is not enough to just to say 'Tat Tvam asi'. It takes a lot of conditioning of the mind. Ramanuja wanted to make it simple. Hence he taught Vishistatdvitham. It simply means, 'Jeevatma and Paramatma are two different entities until one realises they are not'. In other words, Ramanuja's principle is nothing but advaitham with conditioins attached. Sri Naran explained that quite beautifully in his short message.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Naran,

"This is why a human form is considered a great gift because you have an opportunity to perform saranagathi and get moksha."

I have a massive problem with this. I am not even going to argue about 'human body necessity to perform saranagathy. My problem is, why saranagathy in the first place? If one believes God created him/her, then the same God has given the power to think, analyse and make judgements too. Why someone should leave the responsibility of leading his/her own life honourably to God? Why can't they try to earn it by their own good actions?

so, does it mean that an athiest or irreligious person could not get to moksha if there is one?

 

[Raghy]

Sri Naran,

"The Ekathvam of Adaitins is quite extreme. Iswara is understood as pure consciousness, devoid of any qualities. There is nothing other than the consciousness. This is referred to as Nirguna Brahmam."

What is so extreme about this? I always considered Paramatma as a nirguna brahmam. I always told my children that prayers are for our satisfaction only; for our pleasure only, but God does not care whether we pray all the time or we don't pray at all. Also I always said, God can not offer anything to anybody; if the God did that, then the 'nirguna brahmam' charecter can not be maintained.
Any way, it is not extreme. It is quite simple actually.