Marriage expenses of Tamil Brahmins

[Nara]

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... coin even if you consider it being said out of spite!

The difference is, you keep making things up. Why are you not addressing that -- this is why you are being idiotic. You want to just ignore what you can't answer and obfuscate everything else. If I am an idiot to you that would be the best complement.

My view is that it is shameful and self-serving for an irreligious person who is equally guilty on an issue to point the finger at religion.

KB, you keep ignoring the fact there is no definable group called irreligious with well defined sins. Religion, which ever one it may be, has well defined rules, sins, etc., and those who profess a given religion pledge allegiance to the rules and sins of that given religion. On the other hand, the irreligious don't pledge allegiance to anything but their own innate sense of morality. So, in practical terms, it can range from totally immoral like many overtly religious folks like Ted Haggard though all he did was hire a male prostitute, not commission the murder of anyone, to totally ungodly but very moral like Peter Singer.

However, I am pointing my finger at your religion for not considering amassing evil amount of wealth as sin, give an answer for that. Why is it not a sin to hoard obscene amount of wealth, but eating rice on the eleventh day of lunar cycle is a sin? You keep ignoring all the questions I am raising, but dishing out dirt. KB, if you are serious take these questions on.

Just like you do not forfeit your right to comment on religion, I reserve my right to comment on the irreligious! What is good for the goose is good for the gander!

Make it rational, make it serious, simply saying the irreligious are this or that won't do. You can reserve the right to be anything, even to be idiotic, it does not make your case any more rational.

My criticism of the irreligious on this issue is as valid or invalid as your criticism on religion. Take it or leave it...

Read this and my other posts carefully. There is nothing called THE irreligious. It appears this may be too complicated for you to grasp. Let me explain to you slowly, there is no unified group of the irreligious like Hindus, Christians, or one of their sub-sects. Your criticism of the imagined blob of the irreligious is simply a reaction to the criticisms against your religion that you are unable to answer.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Ref post #175

Nara, every criticism of mine is either irrational or a compliment to you, yet you cannot help but take offense and reply. Why would you take offense if you consider my comments as a compliment?

The rest of the post is the usual mish mash, a lengthy post but does not add anything substantive.


I did not say that all irreligious people are uniformly moral or immoral. You are indulging in strawman argument here. For that matter, all religious people are also not uniformly moral or immoral. I said that the irreligious cannot escape guilt for the prevalence of extravagant spending or other such issues by pointing finger at religion. These things are not influenced by religion. It is the product of the society which comprises of both religious and irreligious and so both of them are responsible. I consider that an irreligious person who selectively attempts to blame religion on this issue is being shameful. Just because a religion has a doctrine A but not doctrine B, does not make the religious more shameful than an irreligious who may not have any doctrine at all is the point I wanted to convey. whether the irreligious have a uniform doctrine or not does not come into the scope of the argument. The inaction of the irreligious on this issue is as guilt-laden as the inaction of the religious and hence the inaction cannot be blamed on religion. It is you who are trying to obfuscate what I am writing here.

 

[sarang]

Decency - laugh, laugh.

If charity, a subset of 'aram' is absolute, then most if not all under aram must be absolute. Of course aram varies for varnas.

For me that is good enough. விரலுக்கு தகுந்த வீக்கம்.

எறும்பு ஊர கல்லும் தேயும். தண்ணீர் தேயாது.

Mittals are international with plants all over the world. Not sure whether he is an indian or not.

Bill gates spent millions on his plush buried home; spends money on 'aids' cures and on 'aids' patients. Patients form only a small fraction of the beneficiaries. No money spent on preventing aids. Microsoft adapted many unethical practices to stay ahead in business. Spending a percentage on issues he likes or cares for is good. He should not demand or expect that all microsoft employees and share holders should do the same. He is either accumulating punya or wiping off some part of papa.

A trip to india with family and associated expenses must cost a bomb by indian standards. Does not follow that staying put and donating the money (say 7 lakh, 10000 dollars) to charity is the right thing. How many toilets can be built (with septic tanks) for this amount?

there is no permanent or fixed line for extravagance. as a society we have a sense of decency. also the goodness of traits like charity is absolute.

bill gates is giving away most of his wealth within his lifetime. his purpose is to make a difference while still alive. and he is making that difference.

50 million dolla can do a lot of things in india that can make a difference. 50 million dolla in barcelona is waste because it did not do anything to anybody in the society. except brought some contempt for indians from the locals there.

i have written here before that my older son married in a city hall with parents and siblings present. then a restaurant lunch & dinner.

to me that is good enough.

i went to marriages where 50 lakhs was spent...back to back 4 marriages in chennai past 3 years. the parents wanted to spend the money because they earned it themselves. to me, that is extravagance. there are nobler ways of spending that money, ie do it such that it makes a difference in someone's lives.

i know this is a hard sell. i have the same issue within my family. convincing to give. so i keep on pounding..that's all in the hope that எறும்பு ஊர கல்லும் தேயும். that is all.

 

[sarang]

He is a vaishya and following his dharma unashamedly.

HE IS NOT A TAMIL BRAHMIN.... so he escaped..lol

 

[vgane]

Mr. K,
I am not saying that I do not judge and talk behind the back of someone, and ridicule them in private. So I am not saying that I am holier than you.

But if Mittal spends $50M is sin according to us, then a poor man may say that if I spend Rs 10,000.00 on a meal for 10 is sinful too. I just did it in this trip to India. Where do we draw the line>

Dear Sir,

I am deviating from main topic..However, If Mittal is spending out of his own money no one will question.On other hand he has not paid 12 months salary dues to over 200 of his Company's expatriate employees and then celebrates his daughter's wedding with the who's who celebrities and splashes Rs 200 crores on that then it is abominable and outright condemnable..Mittal ought to have paid their dues before this dream wedding ..Not sure why the Government is hesitating to take action against the scoundrel

 

[krish44]

Ref post #175

Nara, every criticism of mine is either irrational or a compliment to you, yet you cannot help but take offense and reply. Why would you take offense if you consider my comments as a compliment?

The rest of the post is the usual mish mash, a lengthy post but does not add anything substantive.


I did not say that all irreligious people are uniformly moral or immoral. You are indulging in strawman argument here. For that matter, all religious people are also not uniformly moral or immoral. I said that the irreligious cannot escape guilt for the prevalence of extravagant spending or other such issues by pointing finger at religion. These things are not influenced by religion. It is the product of the society which comprises of both religious and irreligious and so both of them are responsible. I consider that an irreligious person who selectively attempts to blame religion on this issue is being shameful. Just because a religion has a doctrine A but not doctrine B, does not make the religious more shameful than an irreligious who may not have any doctrine at all is the point I wanted to convey. whether the irreligious have a uniform doctrine or not does not come into the scope of the argument. The inaction of the irreligious on this issue is as guilt-laden as the inaction of the religious and hence the inaction cannot be blamed on religion. It is you who are trying to obfuscate what I am writing here.

we are discussing marriage expenses and morality issues relating to extravagance in high society and middle class marriages .two veterans I feel are turning it to a personal fight and dragging religeous prefences and orientation of each other.theycan use their superior thinking to suggest how to reduce these expenses

 

[sarang]

Quite simple; spending party must say - I will not; the other party must say - I agree. If one party wants to spend then the other is forced to follow and match the other even if there is no demand.

Best is express one's preference and do as he pleases.

we are discussing marriage expenses and morality issues relating to extravagance in high society and middle class marriages .two veterans I feel are turning it to a personal fight and dragging religeous prefences and orientation of each other.theycan use their superior thinking to suggest how to reduce these expenses

 

[krish44]

Quite simple; spending party must say - I will not; the other party must say - I agree. If one party wants to spend then the other is forced to follow and match the other even if there is no demand.

Best is express one's preference and do as he pleases.

please share with me your personal experience on this where it was done this way and the marriage materialised cutting out frivolous spending and both parties agreed or one party expressed preference and unilaterally did what he wanted

 

[sarang]

That is 'the' solution; obviously not preferred or followed by many. Everyone cannot be gandhi and wear minimal dress. I have no issue with those who spend. If necessary, income tax can chase and get their pound of flesh.

Devyani, the beleaguered diplomat, paid 1.5 crores for a flat in adarsh when her annual income was 1.8 lakhs and she was posted in germany. Obviously bureaucrat father has chipped in.

Those who spend on marriages have enough resources to splash and splurge. Our sastras do not prohibit spending and do recommend feeding and gifting as per one's ability.

please share with me your personal experience on this where it was done this way and the marriage materialised cutting out frivolous spending and both parties agreed or one party expressed preference and unilaterally did what he wanted

 

[Nara]

Ref post #175

Nara, every criticism of mine is either irrational or a compliment to you, yet you cannot help but take offense and reply. Why would you take offense if you consider my comments as a compliment?

I think there is some confusion or misunderstanding here, but no big deal.

KB, after a little bit of a rocky start I think we both were able to get our points across in a more or less civil way. I hope you realize this way is a better way to have a discussion. Let us hope we can avoid the rocky start part the next time we disagree on a topic.

Cheers!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Let us hope we can avoid the rocky start part the next time we disagree on a topic.

Cheers!

Nara, I shall try my best.

Regards

 

[krish44]

That is 'the' solution; obviously not preferred or followed by many. Everyone cannot be gandhi and wear minimal dress. I have no issue with those who spend. If necessary, income tax can chase and get their pound of flesh.

Devyani, the beleaguered diplomat, paid 1.5 crores for a flat in adarsh when her annual income was 1.8 lakhs and she was posted in germany. Obviously bureaucrat father has chipped in.

Those who spend on marriages have enough resources to splash and splurge. Our sastras do not prohibit spending and do recommend feeding and gifting as per one's ability.

I do not agree that those who splurge and splash have enough resources. in many middle class homes ,it is done due to pressure from grooms,relatives and to keep up with status whatever it might mean to them in their circle. in many cases they repent later. they do not have a meaningful plan to take care of education, marriage of kids,housing and post retirement living. the last one is a casualty with parents with pensions hit by inflation,unsupportive,ungrateful kids. I know of some parents living in large houses with meager pensions ,let down by kids and having to do menial jobs in neighbours homes such as cooking or helping out with jobs during weddings and funerals besides getting tied with prohithars for free food and alms during funeral ,yearly ceremonies

 

[vgane]

I do not agree that those who splurge and splash have enough resources. in many middle class homes ,it is done due to pressure from grooms,relatives and to keep up with status whatever it might mean to them in their circle. in many cases they repent later. they do not have a meaningful plan to take care of education, marriage of kids,housing and post retirement living. the last one is a casualty with parents with pensions hit by inflation,unsupportive,ungrateful kids. I know of some parents living in large houses with meager pensions ,let down by kids and having to do menial jobs in neighbours homes such as cooking or helping out with jobs during weddings and funerals besides getting tied with prohithars for free food and alms during funeral ,yearly ceremonies

Dear Krish44,

I feel sorry for the parents who have not taken care of their financial needs in their twilight of their lives

My advice to these elderly is that they should sell their houses , take the money, deposit in a Bank and lead a contended life..Another alternative is to reverse mortgage their house so that they get a steady income...

Cursing children later will have no effect!

 

[sarang]

This is a good scheme and ideal for those with a decent value property. It is not getting good exposure.

.Another alternative is to reverse mortgage their house so that they get a steady income...

 

[prasad1]

Before we endorse reverse mortgage one should know the pitfalls. The government should regularize or seniors will loose their homes.

Reverse mortgages have been criticized for several major shortcomings:


High up-front costs make reverse mortgages expensive. In the U.S., entering into a reverse mortgage will cost approximately the same as a traditional FHA mortgage.
The interest rate on a reverse mortgage may be higher than on a conventional "forward mortgage".
Interest compounds over the life of a reverse mortgage, which means that "the mortgage can quickly balloon". Since no monthly payments are made by the borrower on a reverse mortgage, the interest that accrues is treated as a loan advance. Each month, interest is calculated not only on the principal amount received by the borrower but on the interest previously assessed to the loan. Because of this compound interest, the longer a senior has a reverse mortgage, the more likely it is that most or all of the home equity is depleted when the loan becomes due. That translates to "less cash for your estate or to pay your bills." That said, with the FHA-insured HECM reverse mortgage, the borrower can never owe more than the value of the property and cannot pass on any debt from the reverse mortgage to any heirs. The sole remedy the lender has is the collateral, not assets in the estate, if applicable.
Reverse mortgages are confusing. Many seniors entering into reverse mortgages don't fully understand the terms and conditions associated with the loans, and it has been suggested that some lenders have sought to take advantage of this.

 

[kunjuppu]

two points strike me here on this topic of extravagant wedding expenses.

- in my youth days, there used to be a fear on the girl's side, that they might ill reat their daughter or use snide remarks. hence give in to some rather unreasonable demands. one close relative, paid 10,000 rupees dowry in late 1970s for a love marriage. the boy opposed it, but the boy's father insisted on the dowry.

- in india, usa and canada, i found almost 100%, love marriage between indians mean the boy girl choses themselves. and leave the wedding arrangements to the parents to whom in most cases, the old formulas apply. ie girl's parents spending a huge amount. so there was a big hue and cry, when my son, took the matter in his own hands, decided to have a city hall wedding with just the parents attending.

infact i had told him, there was no obligation even to invite the parents. a couple of friends as witnesses would do. some of the happiest love marriages i have seen have started their lives together this way ... and that too tambrams of the 1980s when this was a rarity in india then.

 

[Raji Ram]

Unless both the parents of the groom and the bride decide to have simple marriage, there will be extravaganza! I have seen the

parents showing the wedding album of their first daughter, when they talk to prospective groom's party for their second daughter,

just to show off that they can conduct the wedding so grand! This is the trend. Now that 'mehendhi', 'bangles', 'portraits' and so on

have different counters in tambram weddings, people seldom think of reducing expenses! Recently, my cousin's daughter got married.

For 'mAppiLLai azaippu' there were band sets + nadhaswaram party leading the groom, who was seated on a chariot drawn by two

white horses! Lots of crackers and 'dappAngkooththu' too! After a few minutes, it was disgusting, at least to me! :dizzy:

 

[krish44]

1. In india love -arranged marriage,and arranged marriage the expenditure is only marginally different. boys parents feel devalued that boy has made the choice and their bargaining power is reduced
2in such marriages son and parents divide increases a lot more after marriage and children drift away from family
3.marriages with nadaswaram and band or drummers with dancing at mapillai azhaippu is common in tamil weddings in north india. This comment is for Raji ram ji 'is post. fancy marriage albums have been foisted by wedding contracters on parents. many do not know what to do with them later I agree extravagant wedding not affordable by many should be done away with
4Kunjuppu ji s suggestion of court marriage with or without parents also appears to be extreme. parents could make the right choice depending on their spending capacity

 

[krish44]

Another area where parents overspend is higher education. many take huge loans for top B schools in india and studies abroad. Many mortgage their jewellery or houses for borrowing 20-25 lakhs There is a lot of sentiment and emotion involved in this. when children later devalue the same saying 'you did your duty. do not expect returns' parents feel let down.
My feeling is parents should provide for themselves first before reaching out to children for financing fancy programs in india or abroad

 

[Raji Ram]

No, no, Krish Sir! Many of my friends' children have taken 'education loan' and are repaying promptly after they get a good placement.

I know of one guy who bought a small but comfortable flat for his parents near our house, within two years of finding a job in the U S of A. :thumb:

Ram and I did not have much problem since our son got good aid in a top univ. in Boston and he knew how to live with the money he got!

 

[krish44]

No, no, Krish Sir! Many of my friends' children have taken 'education loan' and are repaying promptly after they get a good placement.

I know of one guy who bought a small but comfortable flat for his parents near our house, within two years of finding a job in the U S of A. :thumb:

Ram and I did not have much problem since our son got good aid in a top univ. in Boston and he knew how to live with the money he got!

only last week I met one chennai mother who pawned all her jewellery to return the edu. loan for one child and borrowed another 25 lakhs on her flat to send her second kid to the US.. She has only her meagre pension left. One bank manager was telling me about a girl after taking such a loan ,got married and went off abroad leaving it to parents to settle her edu. debts Some children may be conscience bound.But edu. loans have become sticky NPA for banks most are wary of such lending

 

[krish44]

continuing my last post canara bank branch near IIMB has stopped giving loans to IIMB students as many students from all over India vanished without a trace after getting good jobs from MNCs
Any typical middle class family with two kids require half a crore for education for their PG education in top schools and equal amount for two marriages. If one spends half a crore for a decent flat ,there is nothing much left for retirement other than pension. This assumes the parents are self made and worked for a lifetime to have this kind of saving. not many have a decent personal investment profile to cater to all demands on their money. social security in india is not good enough. it caters to some extent to totally poor and below poverty line citizen . none for the middle class who become poor by choice supporting aspirations of their kids

 

[Raji Ram]

Krish Sir,

It appears that you know the 'bitter side' and I know only the 'better side'!!

 

[krish44]

Krish Sir,

It appears that you know the 'bitter side' and I know only the 'better side'!! .
You are lucky and blessed. I am not personally affected . however I have seen such things happening to people. I am personally not bitter about anything. It is just a fact of life I have observed in many families There may be positive stories. Children contributing to marriage or edu. expenses might exist. If it happens , we have to thank the Almighty that we are blessed with wonderful children

 

[Raji Ram]

I always think that blessed are those who are NOT dependent on their children! eace: