Meritocracy and Quotas

[vgane]

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In today's society everything from birth (fertility clinics, neo-natal icus, etc.) to death (portable mortuaries, ambulances, electric crematoria, etc.) every aspect of life has become a business or money-earning proposition. Simply repeating the name of Ram everyday 108 times, may not bring any change or betterment except one's own satisfaction, to the business of life and its shenanigans.

Dear Sangomji,

If one is praying to God and reciting his Namavali why are you criticizing it.....If one is getting solace through that activity despite all the issues and problems enveloping us why are you cynical about it.....It does not behove well on your part

 

[ShivKC]

Well said sir. Perhaps it is ripe time to say with 'garvam' - we are brahmanas; satvik garvam is respected by many.
.

i think you haven't paid much attention to lexicon details, when you used the word garvam ( கர்வம் ), without any wrong intention.


Tamil dictionary says it as :Haughtiness:

Online Tamil Dictionary


And digging Hartiness in wordweb dictionary says;

Overbrearing pride evidenced by a superior manner towards inferiors - Arrogance, Hauteur , high handedness, Lordliness

lordliness

haughtiness- WordWeb dictionary definition

I dont think you mentioned this garvam as a superiority toward inferior..

None of us would teach our children to be a கர்வம் பிடித்தவர் or to behave like a கர்வம் கொள்..

‘கர்வமுடையவர்கள் எப்போதும் மற்றவர்களைக் குனிந்தே பார்ப்பதால், தமக்கு மேல் இருக்கும் உயரிய விஷயங்களைப் பார்க்கும் வாய்ப்பை இழந்து விடுகிறார்கள்’ என்கிறார், கடந்த நூற்றாண்டின் பெருமைக்குரிய அயர்லாந்து நாட்டு எழுத்தாளர் சி.எஸ். லூயிஸ்.

.

I still believe, you never meant garvam in this context...
..

 

[renuka]

i think you haven't paid much attention to lexicon details, when you used the word garvam ( கர்வம் ), without any wrong intention.


Tamil dictionary says it as :Haughtiness:

Online Tamil Dictionary


And digging Hartiness in wordweb dictionary says;

Overbrearing pride evidenced by a superior manner towards inferiors - Arrogance, Hauteur , high handedness, Lordliness

lordliness

haughtiness- WordWeb dictionary definition

I dont think you mentioned this garvam as a superiority toward inferior..

None of us would teach our children to be a கர்வம் பிடித்தவர் or to behave like a கர்வம் கொள்..

‘கர்வமுடையவர்கள் எப்போதும் மற்றவர்களைக் குனிந்தே பார்ப்பதால், தமக்கு மேல் இருக்கும் உயரிய விஷயங்களைப் பார்க்கும் வாய்ப்பை இழந்து விடுகிறார்கள்’ என்கிறார், கடந்த நூற்றாண்டின் பெருமைக்குரிய அயர்லாந்து நாட்டு எழுத்தாளர் சி.எஸ். லூயிஸ்.

I still believe, you never meant garvam in this context...
..

Dear ShivJi,

Actually life is so busy these days that does one actually even find the time to feel Garvam of any sorts?

 

[Nara]

.....What we can learn from history is that a vast majority of these people who have claimed to oppose Brahmins and the -ism have also been ardent casteists, whether it is the Buddhists (read about Buddhist societies from Nepal to Srilanka, all through the subcontinent), or the caste-politics of dravidianists or "reformers" such as Iyothee thaas. According to Iyothee thaas there are naturally lower castes and then there are castes (that is his own caste) that are forced down the ladder. What he writes about தாழ்ந்த சாதிகள் and தாந்த்தப்பட்ட சாதிகள் will be an interesting read.

The Brahmins will do well to be aware of this exalted fight against brahminism which is simply fight against Brahmins and not against casteism at all.

Dear KB, Your observation about Iyothee thaas is correct. Not all those who opposed Brahminism/casteism were/are pristine. Even so, the evil of varna system and caste system is not diminished a wee bit just because some of the opponents of Brahminism were casteist themselves. Some of the present-day practitioners of Buddhism may practice the evil casteism, the offense is personal, not systemic. In the case of Brahminism the system itself is evil.

I totally reject your repeated assertion that fight against Brahminism is simply a fight against Brahmins. Your frustration against those who criticize Brahminism is the source of this evidence free contention.

thank you ....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Some of the present-day practitioners of Buddhism may practice the evil casteism, the offense is personal, not systemic. In the case of Brahminism the system itself is evil. ....

I will let the readers ruminate on the strength or lack of it in this argument...

Your frustration against those who criticize Brahminism is the source of this evidence free contention.

Well, Well... The evidence about the Buddhist societies and the dravidianists and Iyothee thaasar and maRaimalai adigaL and a host of other anti-Brahmins/ brahminists is all there for everyone to see. Therefore, I shall stick with my contention, whether you agree with this or not...

 

[ShivKC]

Originally Posted by Nara
Some of the present-day practitioners of Buddhism may practice the evil casteism, the offense is personal, not systemic. In the case of Brahminism the system itself is evil. ....

I will let the readers ruminate on the strength or lack of it in this argument....

KB,

to be frank and honest here, i think, that was a check mate !! and it needs to be countered intellectually, than letting it to the readers and their emotions.

the point highlighted is, every caste,every citizen, including indian BC/obc/muslim/buddist/christian/Sc Vs ST/brahmin/FC practice casteism be it one for or other, be it tangible or intangible .so called social reformers are yet to figure out why there SCs feel superior over STs, while the government is all up to support SCs.

need to accept the fact here that they do practice it in a personal affair, though not as an ideological affair, i persume.



the question here is.. does that supposedly claimed Buddhists, practice this as an ISM or ideology OR just doing it out of their personal comforts or social advantages?

I think every one, belonging to this side do an introspection,and give a fit intellectual response to it.. Im already on the job of google here..

 

[zebra16]

KB,

.so called social reformers are yet to figure out why there SCs feel superior over STs, while the government is all up to support SCs.

I think you are adding unnecessary confusion. To the best of my knowledge reservation to SC/ST is or was in proportion to their total population. I cant see your point of contention.

 

[ShivKC]

I think you are adding unnecessary confusion. To the best of my knowledge reservation to SC/ST is or was in proportion to their total population. I cant see your point of contention.

I think you got confused.. There is a fight of strata even between SC and STs quite often, to prove who is socially big.. Its every where.. I havent added any unnecessary confusion..

An SC doesnt want to marry an ST.

 

[SP77]

Dear Mr. Nara Ji,

Namaskaram !

I am new to this forum, a tamil Brahmin & a Citizenof the USA for many years now!. I have been reading this topic, & let meadd my opinion.

You are very clearly against Casteism, Brahminism, &Brahmins who speak in support of themselves in anyway.

Since you say in the case of Brahminism the system itselfis evil, Can I kindly know, have you shed your Brahminism, i.e. given up yourpoonal, & converted into the other castes preferably a Dalit so that youcan set an example for other Brahmins to follow ?. OR you claim to be a TamilBrahmin fighting for the cause of the other castes in these forums? Do youspeak Brahmin Tamil which is over 80% Sanskrit OR colloquial Dravida Khazhagam –Vaya Poya kind of Tamil ?

Also instead of showing your enormous prowess in winning argumentshere, will it not serve your cause of abolishing Brahminism better by takingthis fight to the Indian Courts & abolishing castes altogether !!

Kindly consider this as a counter argument instead of anypersonal attack!

Shankar P

 

[rishikesan]

I think you got confused.. There is a fight of strata even between SC and STs quite often, to prove who is socially big.. Its every where.. I havent added any unnecessary confusion..

An SC doesnt want to marry an ST.

Dear mr sangom, I read all of your views. I think you live in Canada and possess lot of experience in life, about tamil Brahmins both in India as well as in other countries where our lot have made home for good. It is centpercent fact that moral has deteriorated very much iN the last ten years. I attribute it to KAli YUGAM, the predictions are that as Kali progresses unthinkable acts will take place all over and as an elderly tamil Brahmin , now aged 80 years having 3 kids and 6 grand children we elders at least think good and. Pray for sarve janah sukhino Bhavantu attitude.. In that Nama smaran takes first place as we hear in all pravachanams in this kali yuga
at least that would give peace of mind &no abnormal difficulties in life. By and large we Tamil brahmins may not have the so-called unity among us but each one/ each of the family do progress by hook or crook & make progress in life, not at the cost of others?
We are not realizing the fact of today in which not only elders like us but the young ones married or not do not fail to visit temples on week ends & pray/ contribute & what not ? There are more than 500 temples in U.S How many in Canada? Please mention.
Only major sad feeling I have is this :- A small percentage of our youngsters boldly marry outside brahmin sect & cause worry to parents (who cannot have real peace) There can only be false interaction with N.B family members. This goes on unabated because these youngsters lived luxuriously from their youth & do not distinguish the major problem of Inter caste marriage ?
My Sangom may give lot of reasons for this. It all would be true. But if these guys had married within our sect all of us would feel proud & keep our heads raised at all times & enjoy with the whole family & friends with no room for unpleasant feeling
May be it is a curse for our community ?.
Sincerely,
Rishikesan (A. Srinivasan)

 

[vgane]

Dear mr sangom, I read all of your views. I think you live in Canada and possess lot of experience in life, about tamil Brahmins both in India as well as in other countries where our lot have made home for good. It is centpercent fact that moral has deteriorated very much iN the last ten years. I attribute it to KAli YUGAM, the predictions are that as Kali progresses unthinkable acts will take place all over and as an elderly tamil Brahmin , now aged 80 years having 3 kids and 6 grand children we elders at least think good and. Pray for sarve janah sukhino Bhavantu attitude.. In that Nama smaran takes first place as we hear in all pravachanams in this kali yuga
at least that would give peace of mind &no abnormal difficulties in life. By and large we Tamil brahmins may not have the so-called unity among us but each one/ each of the family do progress by hook or crook & make progress in life, not at the cost of others?
We are not realizing the fact of today in which not only elders like us but the young ones married or not do not fail to visit temples on week ends & pray/ contribute & what not ? There are more than 500 temples in U.S How many in Canada? Please mention.
Only major sad feeling I have is this :- A small percentage of our youngsters boldly marry outside brahmin sect & cause worry to parents (who cannot have real peace) There can only be false interaction with N.B family members. This goes on unabated because these youngsters lived luxuriously from their youth & do not distinguish the major problem of Inter caste marriage ?
My Sangom may give lot of reasons for this. It all would be true. But if these guys had married within our sect all of us would feel proud & keep our heads raised at all times & enjoy with the whole family & friends with no room for unpleasant feeling
May be it is a curse for our community ?.
Sincerely,
Rishikesan (A. Srinivasan)

Dear Shri Rishikesan,

I think you wanted to address to Shri Kunjuppu who lives in Canada

Shri Sangom who seems to have bothered you, lives in India

Regarding ShivKC to whon you have addressed, I am not aware

Yes, your thoughts are reflected by my father too who is equally pained by our youngsters going berserk

May be youngsters have ganged up to put our head & shoulder down through IC & IR marriages

 

[sangom]

Dear mr sangom, I read all of your views. I think you live in Canada and possess lot of experience in life, about tamil Brahmins both in India as well as in other countries where our lot have made home for good. It is centpercent fact that moral has deteriorated very much iN the last ten years. I attribute it to KAli YUGAM, the predictions are that as Kali progresses unthinkable acts will take place all over and as an elderly tamil Brahmin , now aged 80 years having 3 kids and 6 grand children we elders at least think good and. Pray for sarve janah sukhino Bhavantu attitude.. In that Nama smaran takes first place as we hear in all pravachanams in this kali yuga
at least that would give peace of mind &no abnormal difficulties in life. By and large we Tamil brahmins may not have the so-called unity among us but each one/ each of the family do progress by hook or crook & make progress in life, not at the cost of others?
We are not realizing the fact of today in which not only elders like us but the young ones married or not do not fail to visit temples on week ends & pray/ contribute & what not ? There are more than 500 temples in U.S How many in Canada? Please mention.
Only major sad feeling I have is this :- A small percentage of our youngsters boldly marry outside brahmin sect & cause worry to parents (who cannot have real peace) There can only be false interaction with N.B family members. This goes on unabated because these youngsters lived luxuriously from their youth & do not distinguish the major problem of Inter caste marriage ?
My Sangom may give lot of reasons for this. It all would be true. But if these guys had married within our sect all of us would feel proud & keep our heads raised at all times & enjoy with the whole family & friends with no room for unpleasant feeling
May be it is a curse for our community ?.
Sincerely,
Rishikesan (A. Srinivasan)

Respected Shri Srinivasan,

Namaskarams. As Shri Vgane has written (Post #385) I live in Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala and it is Shri Kunjuppu who lives in Canada.

I would like to draw your attention to this sentence from your above post: "By and large we Tamil brahmins may not have the so-called unity among us but each one/ each of the family do progress by hook or crook & make progress in life, not at the cost of others?"

I think you will therefore agree with me when I say that tamilbrahmins may not always be using fair means (by hook or crook) to progress in life. And the moment it becomes "unfair" it will be at the cost of some other person, directly or indirectly. Similarly, many among us tabras have some guilt feeling about some unfair act or other committed by them and that is one reason which prompts them to visit temples, attend religious pravachanams, recite the name of god, etc. They believe that by doing such things they can get the pardon of god for all their past mistakes and start their day/week afresh as gossamer-like innocents.

I do not subscribe to this practice or theory and believe that the universal law (called as ṛtaṃ in our scriptures) will rule us at all times and that no amount of temple-going, attending pravachanams, reciting rama naamam, etc., will save any one from the "by crook" parts of one's past actions. Those who have some vested interest in religion are misleading people into believing that by doing such things one can even fool god.

As to our youngsters marrying outside our caste, I used to view it, till about two years ago, as an unsatisfactory trend and have even argued against it in this forum. But I had chances to interact with some of the girls who married boys from NB hindu, Nadar Christian etc., families. These girls have their own viewpoints about the "suffocating" atmosphere in the tabra households and have taken a conscious decision to go out of this atmosphere. All those whom I have talked to are leading normal, happy lives also. Therefore, I have changed my view on this issue and now feel that we need not make any undue efforts to stop/prevent such IC/IR marriages and that, if possible, we should treat such youngsters without any discrimination if and when they come to our house. If we treat them as part of our tabra community we won't lose anything but such an attitude may be the best preventive for other girls/boys following the same route, I feel.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear mr sangom, I read all of your views. I think you live in Canada and possess lot of experience in life, about tamil Brahmins both in India as well as in other countries where our lot have made home for good. It is centpercent fact that moral has deteriorated very much iN the last ten years. I attribute it to KAli YUGAM, the predictions are that as Kali progresses unthinkable acts will take place all over and as an elderly tamil Brahmin , now aged 80 years having 3 kids and 6 grand children we elders at least think good and. Pray for sarve janah sukhino Bhavantu attitude.. In that Nama smaran takes first place as we hear in all pravachanams in this kali yuga at least that would give peace of mind &no abnormal difficulties in life. By and large we Tamil brahmins may not have the so-called unity among us but each one/ each of the family do progress by hook or crook & make progress in life, not at the cost of others?We are not realizing the fact of today in which not only elders like us but the young ones married or not do not fail to visit temples on week ends & pray/ contribute & what not ? There are more than 500 temples in U.S How many in Canada? Please mention.Only major sad feeling I have is this :- A small percentage of our youngsters boldly marry outside brahmin sect & cause worry to parents (who cannot have real peace) There can only be false interaction with N.B family members. This goes on unabated because these youngsters lived luxuriously from their youth & do not distinguish the major problem of Inter caste marriage ?My Sangom may give lot of reasons for this. It all would be true. But if these guys had married within our sect all of us would feel proud & keep our heads raised at all times & enjoy with the whole family & friends with no room for unpleasant feeling
May be it is a curse for our community ?.
Sincerely,Rishikesan (A. Srinivasan)

Dear Sri Rishikesan,

The great alchemist called time does many things to cultures. We have to change with times and we are changing at measured pace. As many of our elders are intimidated by the pace of changes around us, there is a fear that we may be left behind if we do not jettison everything that is dear to us and float in the wind. As you would be sure this kind of doomsday forecasting is out of place here. You have said it rightly that the changes are all not to our full satisfaction. Your method of coming to terms with these changes by turning to spirituality and nAma japam is one correct way of dealing with the pressure. Attending to Pravachanams can give us unique insight into things which we might have missed earlier in life. Your use of a simple term in every day usage "by hook or crook" has been torn apart by some one and the crook part has been analysed under a microscope. Don't worry: we have all kind of people to make this forum lively. As you said there are many youngsters who have made it a daily regimen to go to the temple and pray before the God. They do take their children too. So our community will not vanish into thin air as some people are forecasting. Brahmins will live as long as there is this world. Inter caste and Inter religion marriages are deviant happenings. If you look into every such cases a little deeply you will find the parents fully responsible for the children thus going astray. They would have failed miserably in their dealings with their children and would be regretting after the horses have bolted. My suggestion to parents of IC/IR married children would be to accept stoically these marriages if they happen despite their counselling. It wont be business as usual after such a marriage. Such children would have to be kept at some distance so that the rest of the children learn a few lessons and our values do not get trivialised. It will be difficult but is possible. Ignore those who constantly din into your ears that IC/IR marriages are perfectly ok. It is like my daughter's teacher telling her that human blood is the same color whether it is that of a Komala or of Janet. The Gorilla too has its blood red in color. Take care. Thanks.

 

[Nara]

..... Similarly, many among us tabras have some guilt feeling about some unfair act or other committed by them and that is one reason which prompts them to visit temples, attend religious pravachanams, recite the name of god, etc. They believe that by doing such things they can get the pardon of god for all their past mistakes and start their day/week afresh as gossamer-like innocents.

Dear sangom, I disagree with this part of your post. It is probably true that there are some who visit temples, attend pravachanams and recite namavali to atone for past sins, both B's and NB's I would think. But, IMO, most people, both B and NB, are probably concerned with achieving something, like passing an exam, getting admission, getting a lucrative job, finding suitable match for marriage, progeny, etc. And then there are some who do these things just as "good" pastime. In my poorvashrama I did all these things you mention, but atoning for my sins never entered my mind. In this respect I would like to cite Karl Marx's most misunderstood opium quote. It is often cited as though Karl Marx was against religion, but not so, he was actually sympathetic to religion in this particular quote -- it reads like what else could the oppressed masses do but to find solace in religion. Here is the full quote:

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".​

regards ....

 

[sangom]

Dear sangom, I disagree with this part of your post. It is probably true that there are some who visit temples, attend pravachanams and recite namavali to atone for past sins, both B's and NB's I would think. But, IMO, most people, both B and NB, are probably concerned with achieving something, like passing an exam, getting admission, getting a lucrative job, finding suitable match for marriage, progeny, etc. And then there are some who do these things just as "good" pastime. In my poorvashrama I did all these things you mention, but atoning for my sins never entered my mind. In this respect I would like to cite Karl Marx's most misunderstood opium quote. It is often cited as though Karl Marx was against religion, but not so, he was actually sympathetic to religion in this particular quote -- it reads like what else could the oppressed masses do but to find solace in religion. Here is the full quote:

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".​

regards ....

I agree with your view, Nara, but my post was in the context of Shri Rishikesan sir stating that tabras progress in life by hook or by crook; plus, I have personally seen some of the tabras who have a somewhat murky history, turning from sinner to saint and becoming very religious etc., after certain stage in life. This cover of religiosity gives them great reputation among the tabras.

 

[sarang]

More new temples are built, old ones in villages renovated, more people are visiting temples, more yajnas are done for earthy results and patronised by willing public, more religious music and books published and sold, upanyasams are well attended, all this done for fulfillment of wishes, 'phala' obtained, for papa vimochanam, for gaining wisdom, by all sections of people whether doing well in life or not. There is no conflict in practicing religion and working hard for a better loukika life, as has been the case for thousands of years.

Prayaschitam for sins and indiscretions is approved by sastras; if the individual transforms into a saintly person for his salvation it is fine; if he does it to deceive others he incurs more sin. Someone with sense, if he personally knows a cheat, will avoid him; or better still will absorb what is good for him to evolve. It is personal misfortune if 'manjakamalai kann' sees only sees the manure and not the fruits and flowers.

 

[renuka]

It is personal misfortune if 'manjakamalai kann' sees only sees the manure and not the fruits and flowers.

I thought the "jaundiced eye" has "yellow vision"....so everything from manure to fruits and flowers will be only yellow.
But it comes with an added advantage..what ever he wears will appear yellow..so by having yellow vision..one can be a Pitambara!LOL

 

[praveen]

Thread closed as the main topic was discussion was lost somewhere.