Meritocracy and Quotas

[auh]

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My only submission is that the whole country is aware of all these developments and no other brahmin group in India seems to be so much exercised by whatever they have lost, nor preoccupied with any notions of grandeur, superiority, special genetic developments/alterations, and so on, as is found in this web forum named after Tamilbrahmins. Why don't we also, like the rest of the brahmins in India, let bygones be bygones, accept our weaknesses in the present political system of the country and concentrate more about our lives today and how to move on with the changing world? Can we not put a stop to all arguments/discussions about reservations, brahmin pride and superiority, etc? (If other castes of Tamil Nadu trumpet their greatness, may be they have the political clout and social unity within their respective castes which makes them strong enough to make such claims; but we do not have either of these and so is it not preferable to remain silent on such things?)

Sorry for intervening, but do you think that we can talk about "reservations, brahmin pride and superiority, etc" if we gain some "political clout and social unity"?

My only submission is that the whole country is aware of all these developments and no other brahmin group in India seems to be so much exercised by whatever they have lost, nor preoccupied with any notions of grandeur, superiority, special genetic developments/alterations, and so on, as is found in this web forum named after Tamilbrahmins.

I dont know on what basis you say this. Is it because you did not see any other brahmin group's site on the net?

Regards,

 

[sarang]

Garvam, not gauravam. Pride and arrogance are two different things. I believe garvah is used in both senses. With pride one talks about his superior traits or achievements without even referring or bothering about the other. With arrogance, one is more active in denigrating other's merits or demerits, and with less emphasis on one's own.

I will try to get examples from scriptures and literary works, if lucky.

Dear Sir,

By Garvam here do you mean Gauravam?

Can you kindly answer?

 

[rishikesan]

reply to Mrs #318 Mrs Renuka

Sorry for intervening, but do you think that we can talk about "reservations, brahmin pride and superiority, etc" if we gain some "political clout and social unity"?

I dont know on what basis you say this. Is it because you did not see any other brahmin group's site on the net?

Regards,

Dear Mrs Renuka, I am really happy that I get a chance to know about you in your own words. I had been thinking as to who you are taking keen interest in this forum & I used to feel that it may not be easy to interact with you on matters you write quite often, mainly the comments ? I am clear that you do not live in India, but in another country / also that you are not Brahmin of Tamil origin, but keenly reading what all being written in this forum. Fine, One thing I want stress is that Tamil Brahmins have many/ many / many more faces , not only in India , but in other countries as well Tamil brahmins , more than a few Lakhs living in U. S . For the last 20 years there is exodus. All follow the same path After completing Engg courses go to US invariably secure scholarships/ assistance etc. while studying M.S. in whatever subjects they choose
Mostly secure I. T. Software jobs & earn handsome amt & within 3/ 5 years save enough buy new Flats in India for the parents , get married have a child soon & invite the parents for taking care of grand child , thus providing a great chance to visit U.S which would have never been dreamed off ?
We Tamil brahmins never, ever treat any caste badly, they know how to ttreat good all , be an excellent citizen & bring honour to the country thew have adopted? Quite a number are Citizens including my Daughter & 2 grand Children are US citizens for last 13 years.
A few are occupying top U.S Legal positions in OBAMA;s Govt.
I conclude saying that it is a fact that Tamil brahmins are Docilel/ god fearing/honest/ Help others & what not ?

A.Srinvasan ( Rishikesan)

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Vaagmi Ji,

I do not get it...I thought you believed in a birth based or rather a gene based status for Varna.
But now from this post..it seems that you feel that a Birth Brahmin can become a Guna Shudra by the actions like :
1)Ruthless slaughters animals.
2)Kills a fellow human being.
3)Destroys public property
4)Burns his wife for dowry
5)When he cheats etc.
Ok now my question is (1)how would this be even possible going by the theory of Sattva genes?
BTW if doing menial works does not translate as being Shudra....then (2)what was the Varna system based on?
The Varna system as we all know was based on occupation mainly and not on criminal acts like you stated above.

I thought I will skip this post because it reveals a misunderstanding of all my posts. So a reading of all my posts in this thread is required for a clear understanding of my position. But I thought I should answer this because you are asking for it. The answer to question no 1 highlighted above is --Anya rEthas. The answer to q no.2 highlighted is --please read Monier in post #316. Thanks.

 

[Vaagmi]

post #324 by Sangom for reference:

The brahmins of Tamil Nadu, unlike their counterparts in the rest of the country, got a really bad (or should it be 'good'?) thrashing at the hands of the Dravida Kazhagam followers during the middle of the last century and, since then, the Kazhagams have captured political power in Tamil Nadu and since there seems to be no end coming to it anytime in the near future, the [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]minuscule[/COLOR] Tamil Nadu Brahmin community is, itself, like an endangered species.

The TBs have become an endangered species not because of kazhagams because despite kazhagams they are thriiving in TN as well as outside and are still a force to reckon with. But they are needled repeatedly by the bashers from within the community who appear to derive a vicarious pleasure in exaggerating the plight(?) of the community as seen by them and those intellectuals from the community who freely advise and promote IC/IR marriages as the solution to all the problems of brahmins.

Though your statement that "the judicial system prevailing and how it has clearly moved away from thrusting guilt on a community or society or race", may be very factual, I am of the view that the reservations enshrined in our constitution, display the combined pronouncement of the Constitutional Assembly to consciously favour certain groups and take away equal treatment rights from certain others and this was nothing but the Constituent Assembly's considered verdict to punish the latter groups as communities, races or castes. The only technical difference is that the Constituent Assembly was itself not named as "Court" but it was the "gangotri" of all our present day judiciary and the latter are singularly helpless or unconvinced about removing this reservation system, even for elected seats in Municipalities and gram panchayats. Hence, in reality, some of us are paying the fines for past actions of our forebears; the only [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]saving grace[/COLOR] has been that the Constitution itself does not explicitly say so (but the records of the proceedings of the Constituent Assembly clearly show).

1. The reservations as enshrined in the Constitution display the pronouncement of the constitutional assembly to favour a certain group for historical reasons. 2)Certainly there was no talk of taking away anything from or punishing any group. It requires a very peculiar mindset to see such non-existing things in the constitution of India. And Indian constitution has been amended any number of times. By these amendments all communities except brahmins have become the beneficiaries of a national fraud. I do not understand why this is twisted and presented here in a very slanted way.

My only submission is that the whole country is aware of all these developments and no other brahmin group in India seems to be so much exercised by whatever they have lost, nor preoccupied with any notions of grandeur, superiority, special genetic developments/alterations, and so on, as is found in this web forum named after Tamilbrahmins. Why don't we also, like the rest of the brahmins in India, let bygones be bygones, accept our weaknesses in the present political system of the country and concentrate more about our lives today and how to move on with the changing world? Can we not put a stop to all arguments/discussions about reservations, brahmin pride and superiority, etc? (If other castes of Tamil Nadu trumpet their greatness, may be they have the political clout and social unity within their respective castes which makes them strong enough to make such claims; but we do not have either of these and so is it not preferable to remain silent on such things?

Let bygones be bygones. No problem. Brahmin pride and superiority are individual perceptions and when sufficient number of individuals have the same perception (as in this forum) it becomes a group's perception. What is wrong with this as long as this is not rubbed on others? If you do not want to feel proud, dont feel that way. You can even go about kissing every NB on the street to prove your point that there is nothing to feel proud about being a brahmin. Who stops you? This is after all a திண்ணை. Let us talk about all things under the sun here. Why do you want to avoid talking about brahmin pride? If we can talk spiritedly here in this திண்ணை about IC/IR marriages we should be able to speak about pride of brahmins also. I do not find any reason to be silent on these. Thanks

 

[renuka]

Renu garvam in Tamil means pride.

Dear Amala,


Thanks.

 

[renuka]

Dear Mrs Renuka, I am really happy that I get a chance to know about you in your own words. I had been thinking as to who you are taking keen interest in this forum & I used to feel that it may not be easy to interact with you on matters you write quite often, mainly the comments ? I am clear that you do not live in India, but in another country / also that you are not Brahmin of Tamil origin, but keenly reading what all being written in this forum. Fine, One thing I want stress is that Tamil Brahmins have many/ many / many more faces , not only in India , but in other countries as well Tamil brahmins , more than a few Lakhs living in U. S . For the last 20 years there is exodus. All follow the same path After completing Engg courses go to US invariably secure scholarships/ assistance etc. while studying M.S. in whatever subjects they choose
Mostly secure I. T. Software jobs & earn handsome amt & within 3/ 5 years save enough buy new Flats in India for the parents , get married have a child soon & invite the parents for taking care of grand child , thus providing a great chance to visit U.S which would have never been dreamed off ?
We Tamil brahmins never, ever treat any caste badly, they know how to ttreat good all , be an excellent citizen & bring honour to the country thew have adopted? Quite a number are Citizens including my Daughter & 2 grand Children are US citizens for last 13 years.
A few are occupying top U.S Legal positions in OBAMA;s Govt.
I conclude saying that it is a fact that Tamil brahmins are Docilel/ god fearing/honest/ Help others & what not ?

A.Srinvasan ( Rishikesan)

Dear Sir,

Nice to read your reply..no problems you can discuss anything with me.My thinking is rather not conservative and do not subscribe to most cultural beliefs and traditions...just do what I feel and like and willing to learn from anyone anything new.

Actually I join other forums too besides TB forum..I also write in a Dalit blog from time to time.From Dalit blogs I have learnt that Dalits are very patient people.

I like to observe human thinking as my past time and getting to know other communities lets us know their mindset and problems.

Also used to be active in Hindu Dharma forum for a while..but I prefer TB forum cos it's fun..in the sense we have all sorts of topics to discuss from Advaita to Shah Rukh Khan and not to mention the Dishyum Dishyum from time to time.

Where else we can get such entertainment under one roof???

I am a very open minded person who appreciates goodness in everyone and respect everyone regardless of caste/creed/religion.

I am glad you are interacting with me...hope to know more from you.

 

[renuka]

I thought I will skip this post because it reveals a misunderstanding of all my posts. So a reading of all my posts in this thread is required for a clear understanding of my position. But I thought I should answer this because you are asking for it. The answer to question no 1 highlighted above is --Anya rEthas. The answer to q no.2 highlighted is --please read Monier in post #316. Thanks.

Dear Vaagmi Ji,

Anya rethas..Urdhava retas..very soon with advancement of science Retas wont even be required!LOL

 

[renuka]

Garvam, not gauravam. Pride and arrogance are two different things. I believe garvah is used in both senses. With pride one talks about his superior traits or achievements without even referring or bothering about the other. With arrogance, one is more active in denigrating other's merits or demerits, and with less emphasis on one's own.

I will try to get examples from scriptures and literary works, if lucky.

Dear Sarang ji,

I just checked up the dictionary.

Garvam in Sanskrit means Pride/Arrogance/Conceited.

Gauravam on the other hand is from the word Guru meaning Heavy.

Gurorbhava = Gauravam

गुरोर्भावः = गौरवम्

The Heaviness here means High Values and Respectability of a person.

So I guess Gauravam is the word to describe Respectability sans arrogance/pride.

 

[vgane]

Dear Sarang ji,

I just checked up the dictionary.

Garvam in Sanskrit means Pride/Arrogance/Conceited.

Gauravam on the other hand is from the word Guru meaning Heavy.

Gurorbhava = Gauravam

गुरोर्भावः = गौरवम्

The Heaviness here means High Values and Respectability of a person.

So I guess Gauravam is the word to describe Respectability sans arrogance/pride.

Gauravam stands for Prestige...We cannot say that it will not have arrogance & pride

Have you seen the role of Lawyer Rajanikanth in the movie Gauravam enacted by Chevalier Sivaji Ganesan

It can be honor, esteem or high standing..It is associated with a name

Garvam is arrogance

But on account of Prestige a person's behavior can turn arrogant

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Vaagmi Ji,

Anya rethas..Urdhava retas..very soon with advancement of science Retas wont even be required!LOL

Renukaji,

Then it will be anya cell or some such anya thing. Lol.

 

[Nara]

This post is addressed in general and not to Sri Nara particularly. Sri Nara's views are well known and I am not looking for any change in his perception.

But then Narayan, you have addressed all your criticism to me. It goes without saying that your comments are for everyone, otherwise you could simply PM me. Anyway, as you have predicted, I think you are completely off base, but I will let it stand because I know you will not continue the discussion, you will simply have your say and then vanish.

Thanks anyway ....

 

[sangom]

Sorry for intervening, but do you think that we can talk about "reservations, brahmin pride and superiority, etc" if we gain some "political clout and social unity"?

Shri auh,

The impression I get is that some of the tabra members (or those posing themselves as tabras) are unnecessarily harping on these points repeatedly. Either they are giving vent to the utter marginalization and helplessness in the outside world, by so 'roaring' here or else they do believe, still, that they are a special creation of nature despite the lack of any scientific evidence to support such a fantastic claim.

I dont know on what basis you say this. Is it because you did not see any other brahmin group's site on the net?

Regards,

I have gone through a few web sites of other Brahmin groups. They do give their account of the origin (usually mythological or legendary) history of their particular group, but there usually is no chest thumping about brahmin superiority, separate culturally evolved genes, 'garvam', etc. In many sites, there is no discussion forum also.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Why don't we also, like the rest of the brahmins in India, let bygones be bygones, accept our weaknesses in the present political system of the country and concentrate more about our lives today and how to move on with the changing world? Can we not put a stop to all arguments/discussions about reservations, brahmin pride and superiority, etc?

Dear Sangom,

I agree with you on grandeur, pride, superiority etc. On the same token, can we also put a stop to bashing Brahmins, stop blaming Brahmins themselves for the tirades directed against them, stop forcing guilt on Brahmins visiting this site by quoting dubious historical information etc.

In addition, we may not consider blanket ban on topics such as reservations, because education/hard-work is still the best way for most Brahmins to get out of poverty and third world status and reservations/ discrimination is something that is becoming more and more widespread and pernicious. Even if you feel nothing comes out of these discussions because of our political weakness, the discussions can at least serve to disseminate information about current situation in India and how it affects Brahmins and perhaps help Brahmins make smart political, economic, and academic choices in their lives.

 

[vgane]

Shri auh,

The impression I get is that some of the tabra members (or those posing themselves as tabras) are unnecessarily harping on these points repeatedly. Either they are giving vent to the utter marginalization and helplessness in the outside world, by so 'roaring' here or else they do believe, still, that they are a special creation of nature despite the lack of any scientific evidence to support such a fantastic claim.



I have gone through a few web sites of other Brahmin groups. They do give their account of the origin (usually mythological or legendary) history of their particular group, but there usually is no chest thumping about brahmin superiority, separate culturally evolved genes, 'garvam', etc. In many sites, there is no discussion forum also.

The Brahmins in other Southern states do not face any sort of problems from the major political parties be it Karnataka, Andhra or Kerala....So in these States the Brahmin sites are more a one way communication (it is more relating to rituals/culture/traditions)

On the other hand Brahmins in TN are facing a major challenge...The situation is different...

In no other State are Brahmins asked to give up priesthood.(there was a some demand by one part of NSS in Kerala).

In no other state were tufts and sacred threads cut or Brahmin women denigrated in public

In no other state are Brahmins riled by Reservations....

So the approach adopted is not to seek some divine ordained superiority but to seek parity with other castes and communities in our day to day life and garner respect from one and all.

Coming to this site the writers in this forum are varied lot from extreme right to extreme left

We are leaving the final judgment to the readers and we ourselves are not taking any call in most of the General discussions where serious topics affecting the Tambrahms are discussed

However on account of the extremes in response a common man may assume that we are prejudiced, biased etc

While we are building a repository of information relating to our culture, tradition, rituals and philosophy we may still fall short of members expectations on topics affecting the Tam brahm

May be our approach has to be different

May be we recommend Shri Praveen should (as suggested by venerable Shri Rishikesan) organize a meeting to look at the issues holistically and come with a game plan

 

[Vaagmi]

but there usually is no chest thumping about brahmin superiority, separate culturally evolved genes, 'garvam', etc. In many sites, there is no discussion forum also.

If I do not understand a certain idea presented by a member here I would keep quiet. I won't call it names and try to belittle it and then finally dismiss it with a wave of hand. If I do not understand culture's impact on genes, I would restrict myself to other topics in which I have adequate knowledge. But that is possible only when I know myself is it not so? Thanks.

 

[sangom]

I reproduce below one e-mail fwd, sent to me by a very esteemed veteran member of this forum, who no longer participates here, from the US Brahmins site:

HOW BRAHMINS CAN REGAIN RESPECT FROM SOCIETY?

The brahmana is expected to wage a relentless war

1. to control the physical instincts and
2. 2. to raise the mind to higher levels

It was universally conceded that they represented the ideal man.
He was not normally expected to practice remunerative professions except in times of great distress. It was the duty of the society to maintain him, his family and his disciples. The brahmana would get a place of honour and veneration.

The brahmana was expected to apply the rules to himself more ruthlessly as evidenced by the story of Shankha and Likhitha (refer Shantiparva, Mahabharatha, Ch.23).

Not all Brahmins could keep to such superhuman ideals and there was a gradual decline. Further decline led to the assertion of the theory of superiority just by birth and the claim of the privileges as a matter of right. This naturally led to their own spiritual damnation and generated an unhealthy reaction from other members of the society. Today’s corruption, nepotism, immorality etc., could also be attributed partially to brahmanas among others.

Brahmins should show the way now.

They should return to a life of simple living and high thinking by producing from among themselves great persons of sterling character.
Then alone the society could achieve the balance again.

Similarly, if those who are economically, educationally and culturally forward take some extra trouble for the uplift of the weaker people, social tensions would disappear and balance restored. Of course, if there are poorer people among themselves, they should be given the priority.

May be we can have further discussions on the above points.

 

[prasad1]

Shri auh,

The impression I get is that some of the tabra members (or those posing themselves as tabras) are unnecessarily harping on these points repeatedly. Either they are giving vent to the utter marginalization and helplessness in the outside world, by so 'roaring' here or else they do believe, still, that they are a special creation of nature despite the lack of any scientific evidence to support such a fantastic claim.



I have gone through a few web sites of other Brahmin groups. They do give their account of the origin (usually mythological or legendary) history of their particular group, but there usually is no chest thumping about brahmin superiority, separate culturally evolved genes, 'garvam', etc. In many sites, there is no discussion forum also.

There may be some misguided Brahmins who have misunderstood the word "garvam", and occasionally do the chest thumping, majority of Brahmins are poor, meek and look the other way when physically challenged. There may be some Brahmins who because of their scholarship or success in their chosen field are proud (just like any other human beings). Why single them out as the only brahmins?

You and I belong to this community, what sort of "garvam" you exhibit?

 

[Nara]

You guys don't want any criticism of Brahminism. You guys want to talk only about Vedanta. People like me pointing out how Brahminism is practiced in reality are castigated. We are told Brahminism has nothing to do with casteism, we are hatemongers, brahmin bashers. When we present crystal clear evidence for the connection between Brahminism and casteism, the tone changes to your casteism is different, we are picking and choosing, etc.

A philosopher from a different time and different place declared an unexamined life is not worth living.

Take a critical look at the ideology you want to be proud of, i.e. satvik garvam, like meat eating vegetarian, about your jAti. Take an honest look at how others see your ideology. They see the entirety of your texts, including the ones you guys don't want others to talk about. And then they see your practice and they see hypocrisy.

One way to react is say they are brainwashed by Dravidian leaders, or, they are guilty of worse casteist practices. But there is another way, a better way. Escaping from the confines of theism did the trick for me. But that is not necessary, you can still remain within theism and still see the light.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

There may be some misguided Brahmins who have misunderstood the word "garvam", and occasionally do the chest thumping, majority of Brahmins are poor, meek and look the other way when physically challenged. There may be some Brahmins who because of their scholarship or success in their chosen field are proud (just like any other human beings). Why single them out as the only brahmins?

You and I belong to this community, what sort of "garvam" you exhibit?

I think the problem with some people is that it is either their way or the high way. They pick a few words here and there, they invent all sorts of equivalencies, do not provide any evidence for all their accusations and if their theories are challenged they just parrot the same thing as if just by repeating their accusations things will stick and people will fall their way.

Look at the zeal with they attack any positive trait that a Brahmin may claim but they do not waste a moment to single out Brahmins as if any and all faults lie only with them and they are supposed to examine how they live their lifes etc. But the moment you call their bluff they play victim. Hypocrites, I say.

 

[Nara]

I reproduce below one e-mail fwd, sent to me by a very esteemed veteran member of this forum, who no longer participates here, from the US Brahmins site:

[......]

May be we can have further discussions on the above points.

Dear Sangom, from whatever little I have read, I can say with reasonable certainty that there never was a time when Brahmins lived up to the ideals touted in the email you have reproduced and there never was a time when, as the email claims, "It was universally conceded that they represented the ideal man."

Starting from the the time of Gauthama Buddha and the Charvakas, there has always been opposition to Brahminism. SV tradition itself started with the rejection of varna as can be seen from the verses of Azhvars and from the eclectic group of disciples Alavandhar had. The SV hagiography states Periya Nambi, a brahmin, performed the last rites to Maraner nami, a dalit. However, over the years the vadama converts asserted control and slowly the revolutionary spirit of SV tradition was completely sapped out and Braminism was firmly established.

Coming down the time line some more, we see Kapilar Agaval, a text from about the 14th century CE that is very critical of Brahmins and Brahminism.

Even in recent times, before the Dravidian movement took shape, we have leaders like Iyothee Thass who opposed Brahminism and Brahmins. He started out as an Advaitee, but later converted to Buddhism. He was the first of the modern anti-Brahmin leaders.

Dravidar Iyakkam is only the latest in a long line of opposition to Brahminim and Brahmins. The success they have had will probably be long lasting. In my father's generation, almost all of them firmly believed in the superiority of Brahmins and didn't mind saying so. In my generation there are enough people who feel uncomfortable asserting such superiority, even if they believe in that. The proud Brahmins who wax eloquent of their superior qualities will never mouth anything like that in mixed company. In the next generation there is intense questioning and argumentation. Among them I wouldn't be surprised if those who harbor Brahmin supremacist feelings do not exceed 50%. In one or two generations from now, the descendants of present day Brahmins may wonder what the hell was wrong with our ancestors. In other words, the trend is towards the ultimate rejection of Brahminism even if they retain some the theism which may take longer to overcome.

regards ....

 

[Nara]

I think the problem with some people is that it is either their way or the high way. They pick a few words here and there, they invent all sorts of equivalencies, do not provide any evidence for all their accusations and if their theories are challenged they just parrot the same thing as if just by repeating their accusations things will stick and people will fall their way.

Look at the zeal with they attack any positive trait that a Brahmin may claim but they do not waste a moment to single out Brahmins as if any and all faults lie only with them and they are supposed to examine how they live their lifes etc. But the moment you call their bluff they play victim. Hypocrites, I say.

KB, you are wrong about me, I am just expressing my views, take it or leave it. This is not my way or highway. In all these years I have never been the initiator of these discussions. Only when claims that are clearly supremacist are made I express my views. In other words, when Brahmin superiority is repeated I repeat my objections. Stop the parrot-like repetition of such views and you will not hear from me on these topics.

I am not picking any of the words of Paramacharya out of context. You claimed there was no connection between Brahminism and casteism and I cited his words that clearly contradict your claim. Now you want to say his casteism is different. That is your opinion, but the fact is Paramachariya did connect Brahminism and casteism.

In this short post you have constructed so many straw men I don't know where to start. I never singled out Brahmins. I have never bluffed and nobody has called me out on one either. If I had any detail wrong I have never hesitated to take responsibility and offer amends. What is wrong with you, why so much negativity directed at me the person? What is wrong in saying all of us must take a critical look at our beliefs? You have used very harsh words against me, and just take a look at my responses. Then, if you wish to call me a hypocrite, do so, to my face if you please!

cool down KB, I am just a messenger .....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

What I said was the term brahminism cannot be used interchangeably with casteism. This is because the Brahmin community has also been and still is at the receiving end of casteism and caste based discrimination. Calling this casteism as brahminism is injustice and unfair to the Brahmin community. This is my argument.

People who claim to oppose casteism but simply call it as brahminism with a view to blame Brahmins are practising hypocrisy. Brahmins should and will oppose them tooth and nail.

 

[Nara]

What I said was the term brahminism cannot be used interchangeably with casteism. This is because the Brahmin community has also been and still is at the receiving end of casteism and caste based discrimination. Calling this casteism as brahminism is injustice and unfair to the Brahmin community. This is my argument.

KB, if this is your position, then there is no argument at all, I also don't want to use Brahminism and casteism interchangeably. The term Brahminism is much broader, but it does encompass varna, and jati aka casteism. My point all along was casteism is Brahminism's progeny. Casteism is not something separate from and independent of Brahminism. Brahminism is the intellectual justification for casteism. Paramachariya's words confirm this quite emphatically.

I do understand that you don't want to be tainted by the caste violence perpetrated by upper caste NB Hindus. That is fine. But you can't wash your hands off completely of casteism. Take a look at the kind of opinions expressed here in various threads and it is plain as உள்ளங்கை நெல்லிக்கனி that the Brahmins are just as casteist as any other caste, if not more. The intensity of casteism is no less among Brahmins than any of the upper caste NB's dominating village life. The difference is how different castes from different geographical locations respond to caste conflict. NBs living in villages respond by building caste walls or in case of IC marriage go on a rampage. Brahmins don't go on a spree of violence, and neither do NB's living in towns and cities. The difference is opportunity and strength. NBs in towns and cities, and B's everywhere lack united strength and opportunity. Both NB's living in towns and cities, and B's everywhere, express their casteism not through violence but through contempt for lower-order castes, and boycott of the couple in case of IC marriage.

People who claim to oppose casteism but simply call it as brahminism with a view to blame Brahmins are practising hypocrisy. Brahmins should and will oppose them tooth and nail.

You are again wrong. I don't have any "view" to blame Brahmins let alone blaming Brahmins alone. Casteism must be opposed whoever practices it, B or NB, in whatever way it is practiced, by violence or by other physically non-violent but emotionally violent ways. Just as the NB's, the B's have their share of responsibility to rid our society of this scourge. Turning a blind eye to one's own responsibility, but at the same time heaping all the blame for casteism upon NBs is what is truly hypocritical. I oppose Brahminism and I oppose its progeny, casteism. There is no hypocrisy in this position.

thanks ....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Ref post 349:

The word progeny is generally used to mean descendant. There is no proof to show that casteism descended from something called brahminism. Therefore casteism cannot be considered the progeny of brahminism. That view is wrong. The link provided did not prove it. Whose casteism is worst is all a subjective matter.

People who support caste based discrimination cannot claim to oppose casteism. That is definitely hypocritical.