Meritocracy and Quotas

[Nara]

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Ref post 349:

The word progeny is generally used to mean descendant. There is no proof to show that casteism descended from something called brahminism. Therefore casteism cannot be considered the progeny of brahminism. That view is wrong. The link provided did not prove it. Whose casteism is worst is all a subjective matter.

People who support caste based discrimination cannot claim to oppose casteism. That is definitely hypocritical.

Alright KB, we have each had our say, let us leave it at that. I hope you have no ill feelings towards me. The reason I wonder is you seem to have a difficult time addressing me, I don't towards you. I notice you have responded post haste at 7:30 pm Eastern Daylight time USA. So I guess you live in the U.S. If that is so, it would be a pleasure to meet you and have this conversation in person over a drink, soft drink for you if that is what you prefer.

best regards my friend KB ....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Nara, The lack of addressing is not because of ill-will. Sorry if it offended you.

 

[Nara]

Nara, The lack of addressing is not because of ill-will. Sorry if it offended you.

Thats alright my friend, no problem. I appreciate your forthrightness..... Hope we can meet face-to-face and continue the conversation, my wife is an excellent host if I may say so myself ....

 

[renuka]

Gauravam stands for Prestige...We cannot say that it will not have arrogance & pride

Have you seen the role of Lawyer Rajanikanth in the movie Gauravam enacted by Chevalier Sivaji Ganesan

It can be honor, esteem or high standing..It is associated with a name

Garvam is arrogance

But on account of Prestige a person's behavior can turn arrogant

You have a valid point...I guess may be thats why the root word is Guru for Gauravam.

As Guru means heavy...it is a gentle reminder that even Prestige can weigh us down.

Anyway a person who is truly great seldom has a problem with prestige or pride cos a great person knows that nothing in this world is the greater than God and he remains verily" Vinaya Sampanne"(suffused with humility).

 

[sarang]

Garvam is what you feel and gauravam is what you accord to others, I think.

Dear Sarang ji,

I just checked up the dictionary.

Garvam in Sanskrit means Pride/Arrogance/Conceited.

Gauravam on the other hand is from the word Guru meaning Heavy.

Gurorbhava = Gauravam

गुरोर्भावः = गौरवम्

The Heaviness here means High Values and Respectability of a person.

So I guess Gauravam is the word to describe Respectability sans arrogance/pride.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom, from whatever little I have read, I can say with reasonable certainty that there never was a time when Brahmins lived up to the ideals touted in the email you have reproduced and there never was a time when, as the email claims, "It was universally conceded that they represented the ideal man."

Starting from the the time of Gauthama Buddha and the Charvakas, there has always been opposition to Brahminism. SV tradition itself started with the rejection of varna as can be seen from the verses of Azhvars and from the eclectic group of disciples Alavandhar had. The SV hagiography states Periya Nambi, a brahmin, performed the last rites to Maraner nami, a dalit. However, over the years the vadama converts asserted control and slowly the revolutionary spirit of SV tradition was completely sapped out and Braminism was firmly established.

Coming down the time line some more, we see Kapilar Agaval, a text from about the 14th century CE that is very critical of Brahmins and Brahminism.

Even in recent times, before the Dravidian movement took shape, we have leaders like Iyothee Thass who opposed Brahminism and Brahmins. He started out as an Advaitee, but later converted to Buddhism. He was the first of the modern anti-Brahmin leaders.

Dravidar Iyakkam is only the latest in a long line of opposition to Brahminim and Brahmins. The success they have had will probably be long lasting. In my father's generation, almost all of them firmly believed in the superiority of Brahmins and didn't mind saying so. In my generation there are enough people who feel uncomfortable asserting such superiority, even if they believe in that. The proud Brahmins who wax eloquent of their superior qualities will never mouth anything like that in mixed company. In the next generation there is intense questioning and argumentation. Among them I wouldn't be surprised if those who harbor Brahmin supremacist feelings do not exceed 50%. In one or two generations from now, the descendants of present day Brahmins may wonder what the hell was wrong with our ancestors. In other words, the trend is towards the ultimate rejection of Brahminism even if they retain some the theism which may take longer to overcome.

regards ....

Dear Shri Nara,

As you know well, I agree 100% with what you have written, though the informations about Periya Nambi & Maraner Nami, Iyothee Thass, etc., are new to me; thank you for the same.

Looking at the claims of Brahmin superiority which is sought to be flaunted and established irrevocably, within the confines of this small web forum, I thought, in my limited intelligence, that some inputs from the thoughts of diverse types of brahmins from another forum (it is USBrahmins group in Yahoo) may be a salutary step for our brahminist friends to consider here. (I do foresee, however, that very soon all that is contrary to the brahmin superiority argument could be eclipsed out of this forum just as one particular person or even his chevron without borders, has been banned now.

One more point I would like to bring to your notice is that you will find many members on joining this forum, use the phrase "I am proud to be a brahmin / Tamil Brahmin, etc." It therefore looks to me that a good % of the members here do carry some sort of pride about their being tabras, although, in their dealings in and with, the outside world today, it is as clear as daylight that any exhibition of such superiority will get repaid ruthlessly. I wish that our brahmin-superiority friends calmly ruminate about this reality and come to their senses.

As for the future, I happened to meet a very conservative friend of mine (he is just 60+) two days ago, and during our conversation, he remarked that we, the elders in the brahmin community, should better tell our children, grandchildren, etc., to "Quit India" and "Quit Brahmana ways of life" - on the lines of Mahatma Gandhi's Quit India campaign, because there will be no future at all for the brahmins in this country. Coming from a person who harbours a sense of brahmin superiority - just like some of our friends here - it was surprising to me and also an eye opener. Within the next two or three generations our brahmin community will vanish into nothingness. May be this is nature's way of retribution for the past actions of the brahmin community!!

 

[Vaagmi]

post #356 for reference:

One more point I would like to bring to your notice is that you will find many members on joining this forum, use the phrase "I am proud to be a brahmin / Tamil Brahmin, etc." It therefore looks to me that a good % of the members here do carry some sort of pride about their being tabras, although, in their dealings in and with, the outside world today, it is as clear as daylight that any exhibition of such superiority will get repaid ruthlessly. I wish that our brahmin-superiority friends calmly ruminate about this reality and come to their senses.

The pride is there not for projection/rubbing on others 24x7 in every dealing with them. Feeling of superiority is a benign understanding of the fact (யதார்த்தம்) on the part of brahmins. It is not for exhibition and so is not exhibited. It is for a third party to discern it from the way the brahmin performs his tasks as compared to others. This awareness of one's own strength(what is otherwise called self-esteem) is a God's gift and there is no need to discard it. I wish that the brigade comes down to normal ground level from the delirium level and takes a cool look at the யதார்த்தம்.

As for the future, I happened to meet a very conservative friend of mine (he is just 60+) two days ago, and during our conversation, he remarked that we, the elders in the brahmin community, should better tell our children, grandchildren, etc., to "Quit India" and "Quit Brahmana ways of life" - on the lines of Mahatma Gandhi's Quit India campaign, because there will be no future at all for the brahmins in this country. Coming from a person who harbours a sense of brahmin superiority - just like some of our friends here - it was surprising to me and also an eye opener. Within the next two or three generations our brahmin community will vanish into nothingness. May be this is nature's way of retribution for the past actions of the brahmin community!!

If the past were to be the determining factor for the future the brahmin community will certainly thrive because they have done no wrong. They rather have contributed the maximum(disproportionate to their number) to the welfare of the society at large. So this soothsayer's prediction in all probability will end up where it belongs-the dustbin of time.

 

[zebra16]

Within the next two or three generations our brahmin community will vanish into nothingness. May be this is nature's way of retribution for the past actions of the brahmin community!!

Then your action is inexplicable as to why you wanted a discussion on the points raised in the US Brahmins site which was appended to your message # 342.

Whether Brahmins claims superiority and wants to flaunt and establish it irrevocably is a moot point. Most at least on this forum have openly stated that they do not suffer from superiority complex. I would take their words at their face value rather than attempting to read their mind.

But what is clear is that a set of guys are waiting here with their equipment ready to deal sternly with any brahmins coming here in future with their supposed claims. It is a different matter that their equipment has become a lot rusty than it was before.

Brahmins and the supposed "Brahminism" may end or thrive in future, I have no means of knowing but I am certain that it is not going to end due to lamentations of a few retired people or some hyperactive bloggers who would wish to end it at this instance. Any social construct will go into disuse when the society has no need for it. If a handful of people think that they are competent to judge whether brahminism is useful or not, the society does not care for their opinion but would move and act at its own pace.

Although past history is no guarantee of future performance one has to derive full lessons from it. Just reminiscing that charavakas were there, buddha was there, kazhakam is there and a lot many sundry names dropped here and there to oppose brahminism is no consolation to the fact that brahmins ARE STILL here whereas Charvakas are gone, so is Buddha and his Buddhism (except for the neo Buddhists) from India, the splinters in the kazhakam will put to shame the sub sub caste divisions in Hinduism and the kazhakam or iyyakkam is hardly 100 years old.

It is very sad that, according to your prediction, the nature will end it as a retribution of past actions and will not give active credit to the champions of brahminism annihilation team in this forum.

 

[prasad1]

The word pride (if it is the english equivalent of "gurvam") can mean:
1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2. the state or feeling of being proud.
3. a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.
5. something that causes a person or persons to be proud: His art collection was the pride of the family.

So may be Sangomji and Naraji are thinking that Brahmins are proud meaning the definition no 1. That they are vain.
Whereas majority of people (brahmins) mean the definition 3. Self respect.

Language itself can sometimes be the barrier.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pride

 

[tks]

A militant approach to any cause is usually fraught with personal psychological issues. If some had a problem with a parental figure at an early age it is more likely that the person fights that figure through their whole life under the banner of some cause.

There are militant feminists, militant religious figures, and militant but self appointed champions of some injustice (usually of the past).

No debating points can resolve the conflict in their mind in my view.

 

[sangom]

Then your action is inexplicable as to why you wanted a discussion on the points raised in the US Brahmins site which was appended to your message # 342.

Just because brahmin community may become extinct within one or two generations, none of us, including yourself, is stopping any of our routine activities or special tasks; we are buying milk & vegetables, provisions,and we are cooking and eating. In the same way, we can discuss those points also. Does any human being stop any of his/her activities just because death may occur at any moment to each one of us? As Yudhishtira states in the Yakshaprasna, this is one of the mysteries of this Jagat.

Whether Brahmins claims superiority and wants to flaunt and establish it irrevocably is a moot point. Most at least on this forum have openly stated that they do not suffer from superiority complex. I would take their words at their face value rather than attempting to read their mind.

But what is clear is that a set of guys are waiting here with their equipment ready to deal sternly with any brahmins coming here in future with their supposed claims. It is a different matter that their equipment has become a lot rusty than it was before.

Brahmins and the supposed "Brahminism" may end or thrive in future, I have no means of knowing but I am certain that it is not going to end due to lamentations of a few retired people or some hyperactive bloggers who would wish to end it at this instance. Any social construct will go into disuse when the society has no need for it. If a handful of people think that they are competent to judge whether brahminism is useful or not, the society does not care for their opinion but would move and act at its own pace.

Although past history is no guarantee of future performance one has to derive full lessons from it. Just reminiscing that charavakas were there, buddha was there, kazhakam is there and a lot many sundry names dropped here and there to oppose brahminism is no consolation to the fact that brahmins ARE STILL here whereas Charvakas are gone, so is Buddha and his Buddhism (except for the neo Buddhists) from India, the splinters in the kazhakam will put to shame the sub sub caste divisions in Hinduism and the kazhakam or iyyakkam is hardly 100 years old.

It is very sad that, according to your prediction, the nature will end it as a retribution of past actions and will not give active credit to the champions of brahminism annihilation team in this forum.

There is one point to which I would like to draw your kind attention. Charvakas, buddha, kazhakam etc., were directly opposed to the vedic religion and the brahminism which was the core in it, exactly as you have put it. But, the hindu religion as a whole was not opposed by these 'reform' movements. Side by side with these reform movements from the outside of brahminism, there were also the great upanishad composers who also advocated reforms to the brahminic sacrificial belief system from inside hinduism itself, and today, this vedic sacrificial belief system is all but vanished and there are hardly few priests who know how to perform such elaborate sacrifices (yajnas).

We people here are not opposed to hindu religion or brahmins per se; we are only trying to point out some facets of the tabra beliefs which, in our view, only helps to show our caste (community) which is already extremely sidelined in Tamil Nadu, in a worse light which will cause it (the tabra community) to be judged by others as still harbouring caste superiority feelings.

The brahmins of other denominations (including the Nambootiris who were more revered than the kings in Kerala) do not seem to write in such a fashion.

The younger generations of brahmins from most parts of India have been migrating to foreign countries on a long term basis and their children are brought up in the same way as the native children of those countries lest they become losers in the modern rat race of life. Hence the second generation will mostly grow up far, far removed from the brahmin ways; otherwise their life will have hardly any meaning. That is why I say that "within the next two or three generations our brahmin community will vanish into nothingness."

This can be avoided only if it is possible to ensure a vibrant tabra community back home of younger couples having at least two or three children per couple, but this seems to be really impossible. The main reason is that the younger generations are more attracted by the western ways of life than by the brahmin ways of life, irrespective of how much we, the old people, praise our brahmin ways, brahmin sattvika guna or brahmin garvam, etc., and these youngsters (especially the womenfolk) will take the earliest opportunity to emigrate and settle down abroad.

 

[Vaagmi]

A militant approach to any cause is usually fraught with personal psychological issues. If some had a problem with a parental figure at an early age it is more likely that the person fights that figure through their whole life under the banner of some cause.

There are militant feminists, militant religious figures, and militant but self appointed champions of some injustice (usually of the past).

No debating points can resolve the conflict in their mind in my view.

Dear tks,

While I won't venture as far as looking at the psychological issues, I think it is what is called the denial mode that our intellectual friends are in. In this, when the utter non maintainability of their views stands exposed, they would still believe that they are right somehow and keep repeating their point of view. As you said rightly, no amount of debating will resolve the issue.

 

[sangom]

The word pride (if it is the english equivalent of "gurvam") can mean:
1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2. the state or feeling of being proud.
3. a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.
5. something that causes a person or persons to be proud: His art collection was the pride of the family.

So may be Sangomji and Naraji are thinking that Brahmins are proud meaning the definition no 1. That they are vain.
Whereas majority of people (brahmins) mean the definition 3. Self respect.

Language itself can sometimes be the barrier.
Pride | Define Pride at Dictionary.com

The sanskrit verb root 'garv' means to become proud or haughty. Malayalam also takes only the haughtiness aspect of the word 'garvam'. So, unless the tamil usage allows other meanings like self-esteem, etc., the usual conclusion will be to take the haughty aspect. More than that, many posts in the past have brought out that what some members here want to convey is not their self-esteem but something else.

If it is only self-esteem or satisfaction of being oneself, then I think any criticism of one's caste will not bring out such reactions as is witnesssed here. I am satisfied that I am a brahmin but I have no problem accepting that brahmins might have persecuted the lower castes in the past.

 

[Nara]

The word pride (if it is the english equivalent of "gurvam") can mean:

No prasad1, the word that more aptly captures the meaning of கர்வம் is conceit. Pride is more like பெருமை. Also, please note, it was my dear brother sarang who was talking about கர்வம் not me.

thanks ....

 

[prasad1]

No prasad1, the word that more aptly captures the meaning of கர்வம் is conceit. Pride is more like பெருமை. Also, please note, it was my dear brother sarang who was talking about கர்வம் not me.

thanks ....

Less said about your brother the better. I think you know where I stand on that. LOL

 

[Nara]

...... Just reminiscing that charavakas were there, buddha was there, kazhakam is there and a lot many sundry names dropped here and there to oppose brahminism is no consolation to the fact that brahmins ARE STILL here whereas Charvakas are gone, so is Buddha and his Buddhism (except for the neo Buddhists) from India, the splinters in the kazhakam will put to shame the sub sub caste divisions in Hinduism and the kazhakam or iyyakkam is hardly 100 years old..

Dear Narayan, I just don't understand your point. What is this consolation you are talking about? Consolation for what? Why? It looks like you are trying to needle me, but I am not sure what about.

Narayan, Charvakas were probably the first among all of human civilizations to reject religious superstitions and promote rational thinking. It must be a matter of profound regret for all of us that nothing much survives of Charvaka texts. It would be equally regrettable if the Brahmanical texts disappear in the same fashion.

thanks ....

 

[Nara]

Less said about your brother the better. I think you know where I stand on that. LOL

Why must you be nasty? Oh well ....

 

[prasad1]

Why must you be nasty? Oh well ....

Even a lol did not do it. I meant your so called brother from this site.

 

[Nara]

Even a lol did not do it. I meant your so called brother from this site.

I know, I got that, including the LOL, I think your comment was personal and therefore uncalled for. You giving me psychological advice also falls in the same category .....

 

[tks]

Dear tks,

While I won't venture as far as looking at the psychological issues, I think it is what is called the denial mode that our intellectual friends are in. In this, when the utter non maintainability of their views stands exposed, they would still believe that they are right somehow and keep repeating their point of view. As you said rightly, no amount of debating will resolve the issue.

I understand the point you are making.

In my view, all human beings respond to situations influenced by psychological components related to their upbringing as well as by their initial conditions at birth.

If someone *repeatedly* takes a position of explicit anger against their own family or malign the country of their origin, or put down their own community in an imbalanced manner or malign their ancestors even if it is couched in the form of an ism, the influence of psychological component is high in that person.

Anyway I am not seeking agreement to my view here.

 

[renuka]

There is saying Sanskrit that goes that a "Even if only minute amounts of good qualities are present in another person..truly noble individuals see that as a mountain of goodness and rejoice sincerely in their hearts ....but frankly speaking how many such individuals exists in this world?"
​
Come to think of it..almost all Sanskrit sayings emphasize on seeing good qualities in others and praising others.
I have yet to come across any Subhashita that emphasizes on self praise.

So I guess Garvam is not what anyone prescribed.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Although past history is no guarantee of future performance one has to derive full lessons from it. Just reminiscing that charavakas were there, buddha was there, kazhakam is there and a lot many sundry names dropped here and there to oppose brahminism ...

Dear Zebra,

What we can learn from history is that a vast majority of these people who have claimed to oppose Brahmins and the -ism have also been ardent casteists, whether it is the Buddhists (read about Buddhist societies from Nepal to Srilanka, all through the subcontinent), or the caste-politics of dravidianists or "reformers" such as Iyothee thaas. According to Iyothee thaas there are naturally lower castes and then there are castes (that is his own caste) that are forced down the ladder. What he writes about தாழ்ந்த சாதிகள் and தாந்த்தப்பட்ட சாதிகள் will be an interesting read.

The Brahmins will do well to be aware of this exalted fight against brahminism which is simply fight against Brahmins and not against casteism at all.

 

[rishikesan]

in this modern world, one can witness that faith in god has increased but the basic human approach in day to day affairs either at home or in public is totally contradicting . Almost all of us fail to practice normal courtesies and ignore people
Around US and
Go about our avocation, unmindful of .the surroundings you live your life.
Interaction with one another in a humane way is no more seen anywhere.
I have made it a point , before going too sleep, compulsorily chant RAM Ram 108 times and pray for sarve j
Anaha sukhino bhavaNthu
rishikesan

 

[renuka]

I have made it a point , before going too sleep, compulsorily chant RAM Ram 108 times and pray for sarve j
Anaha sukhino bhavaNthu
rishikesan

Dear Sir,

True... this line of yours is a total wake up call for everyone....I feel that most of us are so busy these days that the only Rama Nama chanting we are going to hear is "Raam Naam Sathya Hai"

 

[sangom]

in this modern world, one can witness that faith in god has increased but the basic human approach in day to day affairs either at home or in public is totally contradicting . Almost all of us fail to practice normal courtesies and ignore people
Around US and
Go about our avocation, unmindful of .the surroundings you live your life.
Interaction with one another in a humane way is no more seen anywhere.
I have made it a point , before going too sleep, compulsorily chant RAM Ram 108 times and pray for sarve j
Anaha sukhino bhavaNthu
rishikesan

In today's society everything from birth (fertility clinics, neo-natal icus, etc.) to death (portable mortuaries, ambulances, electric crematoria, etc.) every aspect of life has become a business or money-earning proposition. Simply repeating the name of Ram everyday 108 times, may not bring any change or betterment except one's own satisfaction, to the business of life and its shenanigans.