Mind Development

[sravna]

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Renuka,

The word "in its essence" means that in the real sense jivatma does not change because the greater reality is atman. That only supports my point of view.

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

I know the difference between "in essence" and "in its essence". I know you are arguing for arguments sake.

Dear Sravna...you cant accept the truth cos it differs from your understanding.
So dont say its me who is arguing for arguments sake.
You prefer to escape on illogical grounds instead of making amendments to your earlier statement.

Its disservice on your part to present twisted logic to fit into your preconceived notions.



The fact is none of your understanding is Advaita or Dvaita or Vishisthadavita or any Abrahamic religion or even a Nasthika theory.

Even the Anti Christ has more logic.

You want to hold on to the Evolving theory cos thats the only way you can project your brand of spirituality.

If you adhere to reality the castles in the air come crumbling down.

This is no delusion...this is a well thought out plan to delude others.

ISIS/IS/ISIL is wasting its time getting all violent with the world...they should hire you to delude others with mind games.

 

[sravna]

Frankly I am beginning to think that the delusion is only on your side. There is also an obsession to contradict whatever I write As long as it is a healthy debate, I welcome it. Let us wait for an impartial knowledgeable member to air his opinion on this.

But frankly I am beginning to believe that you are becoming intolerant of whatever I write. Not healthy Renuka.

 

[sravna]

Renuka,

Everything evolves. If you say I do not evolve and a perfection right from my birth or right from my first birth if you believe in rebirths, then you are only deluding yourself. You are not brave enough to face any competition and want it easy all the way. That is not how nature works. You need to compete, win or fail and evolve.

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

Everything evolves. If you say I do not evolve and a perfection right from my birth or right from my first birth if you believe in rebirths, then you are only deluding yourself. You are not brave enough to face any competition and want it easy all the way. That is not how nature works. You need to compete, win or fail and evolve.

LOL.

i do not twist facts and i am brave enough to change my views if I get evidence that my views were flawed.
That takes balls!
Admiting failure or error takes more courage..not all have this trait...so I can understand if you cant relate to this.



The Jeevatama is unchanging and does not need to evolve.

But we come with a subtle body which temporary houses the Jeeva which in turn is just an extention of Paramatma.

The subtle body has various Koshas and the Jeeva is the power house to animate the subtle body which in turn takes a new physical body with each birth for each life.

The actions of the physical body leads to the accumulation of karma both so called punyam and papam.

Both bind and lead to repeated births till a karmic debt of zero is attained..then when the physical body has been shed..its the turn of the subtle body to be shed and finally after the causal body is dissolved only then Jeeva it revealed..the Jeeva essentially is no different from Paramatma..hence then the revelation that only Paramatma verily is dawns.

The whole process to get to this point is called evolution of consciousness only to reveal the Jeeva which was no different from Paramatma.

At no point the Jeeva needed to change or evolve..It simply stood witness to the evolution of consciousness.

 

[sravna]

Renuka,

Without thinking about the nitty gritties, think about this

Jivatma till it dawns upon it that it is paramatma does not realize it is paramatma. Even if it is the consciousness that evolves and makes the jivatma realize it is paramatma, something has to change in the jivatma to get that realization.\

This change I believe is constantly happening as the consciousness evolves as you say.


My view is that the evolution is at all levels and in concordance including an evolved body for an evolved jivatma and mind. It is the Atman that is absolutely unchanging and standing just a witness.

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

Without thinking about the nitty gritties, think about this

Jivatma till it dawns upon it that it is paramatma does not realize it is paramatma. Even if it is the consciousness that evolves and makes the jivatma realize it is paramatma, something has to change in the jivatma to get that realization.\

This change I believe is constantly happening as the consciousness evolves as you say.


My view is that the evolution is at all levels and in concordance including an evolved body for an evolved jivatma and mind. It is the Atman that is absolutely unchanging and standing just a witness.

Wrong!

Please read that Shri Aurobindo link.

Its so clear there.

Jeeva does not have to evolve or change..hence there is no such thing as Jeeva does NOT realize its Paramatma.

Its our mind that does not realize that essentially the Jeeva = Paratmatma becos we identify with the body and mind.

Note..this is from Advaitic point of view.

I feel your understanding would be better suited following a dualistic philosophy.

 

[sravna]

Renuka,

I was able to see that you were misinterpreting even the snippet that you sent. You need to properly understand than ask me to read.

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

Even in the snippet you sent I was able to see that you were misinterpreting. You need to properly understand than ask me to read.

Sravna...dont try to act as if you know it all and others need to be equipped with knowledge to handle you.

I provided evidence from Shri Aurobindo to support my understanding from books I have read before that Jeeva does not have to evolved or change.

I dont make things up.

I provide evidence for anything I write.

If you feel Jeeva has to evolve and change to realize its Paramatma kindly provide evidence from Advaita point of view from a bonafide link.

You have never provided even one link from a bonafide source ever but come up with own theories and yet claim to know more.

 

[sravna]

"Jivatma is a mixture of pratyagatma, the sukshma sarira and sthoola sarira. When the unenlightened man
refers to himself as “I”, he is referring to the sthoola-sukshma-sarira complex (what we generally refer to as the body-mind-complex). He is not aware of the pratyagatma, which is the same as Brahman, the pure, infinite consciousness. The identification with Brahman which Sastra shows as the only means of liberation from samsara is not possible unless we recognize pratyagatma as our real nature, and learning from Sastra that pratyagatma is not different from Brahma caitanyam, identify ourself with Brahman."

Dear Renuka,

Pratyagatma of Jivatma is what is Atman or Brahman. Till the illusion of sukshma sarira and sthoola sarira is seen the jivatma is in not a fully evolved state. You may call it unveiling of maya, shedding of ignorance or evolution. It is all the same.

Link:
http://www.vedantaadvaita.org/AdvaitaVedanta_3.htm

Section 2​

 

[renuka]

"Jivatma is a mixture of pratyagatma, the sukshma sarira and sthoola sarira. When the unenlightened man
refers to himself as “I”, he is referring to the sthoola-sukshma-sarira complex (what we generally refer to as the body-mind-complex). He is not aware of the pratyagatma, which is the same as Brahman, the pure, infinite consciousness. The identification with Brahman which Sastra shows as the only means of liberation from samsara is not possible unless we recognize pratyagatma as our real nature, and learning from Sastra that pratyagatma is not different from Brahma caitanyam, identify ourself with Brahman."

Dear Renuka,

Pratyagatma of Jivatma is what is Atman or Brahman. Till the illusion of sukshma sarira and sthoola sarira is seen the jivatma is in not a fully evolved state. You may call it unveiling of maya, shedding of ignorance or evolution. It is all the same.

Link:
http://www.vedantaadvaita.org/AdvaitaVedanta_3.htm

Section 2​

The understanding states " He is not aware".

What constitutes the definition of " he"?

It also talks about the unenlightened man identifying with the sthoola sukshma sharira complex leaving out pratyagatma(jeeva) in the equation.

Can you kindly elaborate why is the Pratyagatma( Jeeva) left out here and only gross and subtle body identified with?

Is it becos the Jeeva does not undergo change or evolves as per explanation of Aurobindo?

Jeeva is only unveiled and Jeeva has all the while been same as Paramatma.

The stumbling block was only the identification with the gross and subtle bodies.

 

[sravna]

The understanding states " He is not aware".

What constitutes the definition of " he"?

It also talks about the unenlightened man identifying with the sthoola sukshma sharira complex leaving out pratyagatma(jeeva) in the equation.

Can you kindly elaborate why is the Pratyagatma( Jeeva) left out here and only gross and subtle body identified with?

Is it becos the Jeeva does not undergo change or evolves as per explanation of Aurobindo?

Jeeva is only unveiled and Jeeva has all the while been same as Paramatma.

The stumbling block was only the identification with the gross and subtle bodies.

I will get back to you soon as I will be traveling.

 

[sravna]

The understanding states " He is not aware".

What constitutes the definition of " he"?

It also talks about the unenlightened man identifying with the sthoola sukshma sharira complex leaving out pratyagatma(jeeva) in the equation.

Can you kindly elaborate why is the Pratyagatma( Jeeva) left out here and only gross and subtle body identified with?

Is it becos the Jeeva does not undergo change or evolves as per explanation of Aurobindo?

Jeeva is only unveiled and Jeeva has all the while been same as Paramatma.

The stumbling block was only the identification with the gross and subtle bodies.

Renuka,

The most uncomplicated interpretation is this:

Jivatma is veiled by maya. The maya is slowly unveiled and the jivatma and so the mind evolves. When the maya is totally unveiled, the jivatma realizes that it is verily Atman. It is not total ignorance first and then eventually sudden realization in one stroke. It gradually happens. That is the reason I say the jivatma evolves.

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

The most uncomplicated interpretation is this:

Jivatma is veiled by maya. The maya is slowly unveiled and the jivatma and so the mind evolves. When the maya is totally unveiled, the jivatma realizes that it is verily Atman. It is not total ignorance first and then eventually sudden realization in one stroke. It gradually happens. That is the reason I say the jivatma evolves.

Sravna...when the veil of maya is lifted only Paramatma remains.

The Jeeva does not have to realize becos it was verily all the while Paramatma.

In your understanding you say Jeevatma has to realize finally.

We humans realize anything tru mind and senses as long as Maya is in action.

When the veil of Maya is lifted..the gross body and the subtle body including the mind ceases to exists..even Saguna Brahman.ceases to exist when the veil of Maya is lifted.

Thefore there are no more instruments for realization ..no senses..no body...no mind.

By you saying Jeevatma realizes that can only be possible if some instrument like the mind exists..and this is not possible anymore cos no mind or body or senses exists.

Remember..Kenopanishad.


That which cannot be apprehended by the mind, but by which, they say, the mind is apprehended—That alone know as Brahman, and not that which people here worship.


So Sravna...
if you still want to adhere that Jeevatma realizes its Paramatma after the veil of Maya has been lifted..tru which instrument or means does Jeeva realize this?

 

[sravna]

Feeling bit tired Renuka. Will get back to you tomorrow

 

[Vaagmi]

All maya vaadis are Shunya Vaadis. They can not comprehend the truth beyond shunya. So they always end up in that shunya in which everything is dissolved. LOL.

So they seek jivan mukti. Try to reach samAdhi on the way. And get distracted by the ashtamasidhdhi that comes wkith samAdhi. And pat themselves on their back for their uncommon abilities. Poor souls. Formula engine in the bonnet of a 1955 Ambassador. LOL.

 

[renuka]

All maya vaadis are Shunya Vaadis. They can not comprehend the truth beyond shunya. So they always end up in that shunya in which everything is dissolved. LOL.

So they seek jivan mukti. Try to reach samAdhi on the way. And get distracted by the ashtamasidhdhi that comes wkith samAdhi. And pat themselves on their back for their uncommon abilities. Poor souls. Formula engine in the bonnet of a 1955 Ambassador. LOL.

That is why I recommended Dualism in one of my post here cos its easier on the mind.

There is no God but Vishnu and Ramanuja is His Prophet!

 

[Vaagmi]

That is why I recommended Dualism in one of my post here cos its easier on the mind.

There is no God but Vishnu and Ramanuja is His Prophet!

There is one God --an indeterminable entity. He is known by several names. He is known by the name Narayana as indicated by Vedas. So for those following the vedic religion God is Narayana.

Srimad Ramanuja is one among the Acharyas who perceived the reality as explained in Vedas and so he is a revered Acharya for many.

I object to the attempt to describe the Hindu religion in the limited vocabulary of other world religions.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

It is self consciousness through which Jivatma realizes the truth.

 

[renuka]

There is one God --an indeterminable entity. He is known by several names. He is known by the name Narayana as indicated by Vedas. So for those following the vedic religion God is Narayana.

Srimad Ramanuja is one among the Acharyas who perceived the reality as explained in Vedas and so he is a revered Acharya for many.

I object to the attempt to describe the Hindu religion in the limited vocabulary of other world religions.

What do you object?

Is it the body that utters the words that you object to?

If it is the body that you object..let it be known that both bodies are made up of 5 elements that will disintegrate one day.


If it is the Atma that you object..be reminded the same Atma resides in all and you would be objecting the same Self too.

O' Vaishnava....so what can you really object to?

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

It is self consciousness through which Jivatma realizes the truth.

Jiva was all the while..Chidananda Roopah Shivoham Shivoham.

 

[sravna]

Look at also this:

http://advaitavedanta.in/advaita_english_4.aspx

The jivatma is also called as mithya atma i.e., false self.

 

[sravna]

Let me continue and talk about humour. Humour in its essence is seeing things in a lighter way. Many techniques are used to generate humour. There is crass humour and subtle humour. The former focuses on the physical aspects and objects mainly and also mostly in a pejorative way, to generate humour.

 

[sravna]

Subtle humour focuses mainly on the deficiencies or excesses of another's mind. I may make humour about the pride of a person or his greed. Subtlety is also in the way it is delivered. There is a special type of humour which I discovered and call as anti.-physical. Here one makes light of thee spiritual ignorance of a person. Some of the deepest and real humour can be generated in this type.

So humour in essence is the projection in a lighter vein, the physical, mental and spiritual deficiencies or excesses in someone or something.

 

[Vaagmi]

What do you object?

Is it the body that utters the words that you object to?

If it is the body that you object..let it be known that both bodies are made up of 5 elements that will disintegrate one day.


If it is the Atma that you object..be reminded the same Atma resides in all and you would be objecting the same Self too.

O' Vaishnava....so what can you really object to?

Oh Shunya vadin, you will never understand because you are stuck with Shunya. I give up. I wait untill you transcend the Shunya. God bless you with the equipment. LOL.