Opinion of Tabra Boys and Girls on Marriage:

[pviyer]

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This is the critical reason for all these incidents. The schools that are setup, I am sorry seldom presents the traditional perspective in an impressive way. Even traditional (based on english system) schools present the religious subjects in a boring way. School education caters to people, only if they want to score marks, get into selected jobs, with no aid or understanding of purpose of life. I am not surprised that children tend to be influenced by their peers more often than their parents. That is the way things will be , unless we as a community take a decisive step to build schools that will cater to both modern education and our vedic education simultaneously. There are some schools which have started in this mixed model,in mumbai and just now in chennai. But the expectation is that children will be in the veda pathashala staying away from their parents. Isnt there a way by which children can stay with parents, yet learn tradition. This is for those families who are confused but want to be at an intermediary stage. A compromise would be staying in gurukulam for two days in a week atleast for all these other students and no exemption from fee reduction(if they dont stay in gurukulam). Further the curriculam for non gurukulam students will be less intense than the gurukulam students and this option should be left open to only those parents who sacrifice tv at home, and adhere to minimum standards of cleanliness at home, and whose parents are in modern vocation. This way the traditional form is promoted in some ways but the ultra orthodox could still go the complete way.
If someone can pass this request to V.Shankar who is doing great work in this field, it would be good for us all.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

There are many schools already working in the manner desired by you. But alas, they have not impressed the wards. If you want to influence your ward, you must play 100% mother to him, from waking up to leave him into school bus and collect him as the school bus drops and so on. Here the mother of your ward is influenced by the mother of your ward's school mate and so on. Your tradition does not impress them, the western style does. I think we should have stopped at getting independence. Now it is a bit late. Now we can only write theses on our tradion, etc.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

You have great things going on there. Generally in the west, they have a different attitude to life, practically achieving, contributing and participating. Here our women want to have the best of all the world!

 

[ganeshrev]

You have great things going on there. Generally in the west, they have a different attitude to life, practically achieving, contributing and participating. Here our women want to have the best of all the world!

SIr,

I would like to know the meaning of " Here our women want to have the best of all the world".


Could you please elaborate?

Regards
Revathi

 

[sravna]

SIr,

I would like to know the meaning of " Here our women want to have the best of all the world".


Could you please elaborate?

Regards
Revathi

Dear Smt.Revathi,

I think women , especially the brahmin women I suppose want to be seen as spiritual though want to enjoy material comforts. I think there is nothing wrong in that as long as you are sure that you would not be overwhelmed by materialism. In other words you should firmly believe in spirituality and not at any point consider that it has no place in the modern world.

I think it is ok to answer the question addressed to Shri.Iyyarooraan?

 

[Iyyarooraan]

SIr,

I would like to know the meaning of " Here our women want to have the best of all the world".


Could you please elaborate?

Regards
Revathi

It explains everything. They cannot say ‘no’ to glamour, pretension of high style living, all modern comforts without sacrificing the benefits traditional living. On the road to achieving you are alone which they would not prefer, in matters of contribution, they would do to themselves, participating is difficult in order to avoid ego clashes, i.e. giving in to others. The explanation is as large as their universe. There may be exceptions and there could be claim to all these as legitimate. I am not the one to deny them, for I am happy with what I have – ok, a frog in the well!

 

[ganeshrev]

Thx Shri Sravna.

Shri Iyyarooraan, Thx for making me understand your mindset and men in general (Not that I did not know - it confirms to what I already know)

Regards
Revathi

 

[KRS]

Whoa, Sowbhagyavathi Revathi jI,

Please do not write off an entire gender, because of one person's take (a thoroughly mistaken view in my opinion) on today's women.

He knows not what he is talking about. Dear Sri Iyyarooraan Ji, I think that your generalizations about women in general are not correct.

Regards,
KRS

Thx Shri Sravna.

Shri Iyyarooraan, Thx for making me understand your mindset and men in general (Not that I did not know - it confirms to what I already know)

Regards
Revathi

 

[saarangam]

"want to have the best of all the world" is not a feature of some women (not all).Many tabra men also have such a mindset.So IMO it is the character of some individuals with no gender distinction.

 

[sangom]

Thx Shri Sravna.

Shri Iyyarooraan, Thx for making me understand your mindset and men in general (Not that I did not know - it confirms to what I already know)

Regards
Revathi

Smt. Revathi,

I also request that you don't form an opinion about "all males" on the basis of the opinion of one or two people here. I feel women (girls or whatever) have, of late, found a new atmosphere of freedom from many of the shackles which restricted them in many ways. Though education and earning (jobs) for women have been there for more than a generation now, the new air of freedom (I am reminded of "There was something in the air that night, Fernando" of ABBA!) has made them enjoy it a bit more. Of course, there will be cases of going to extremes and unwisely too, but those are exceptions. By and large, women behave in such a way that they will be liked by men of their age (not old bandicoots like me!). Glamour, for women, has been there from the historic past—and those who could afford it, acquired it. Menfolk too like/liked glamour in women. Only, the ideas of what constitutes glamour and the methods of achieving it are changing all the time.

The IT sector with its high earnings has definitely done some harm in so far as certain non-IT families have gone to ruins in "keeping up with the (IT) Joneses". But these are changes brought about by extraneous factors and women are not to be blamed for the IT part, but in the tendency to keep up with the Joneses, women do play a special role, I would say. Within reasonable limits, it is salutary but when it goes ultra vires (crosses the "viralukku thakkane veekkam" limit) it becomes disastrous.

 

[CLN]

I fully agree with Shri KRS ji and Shri Saarangam ji.

Smt. Revathi ji, I could understand from your post #29 itself why you were asking the question and I could predict your post #32. I am sure that any unprejudiced person can now see that generalisations of any sort about men or women are only warped opinions, because, even within the general frame, individuals evolve only individually. No doubt, Shri Iyyarooraan and some others who think like him would be able to substantiate their POV with real-life examples, but for every such example, one can find examples for the exact counter POV also. I believe women today, by and large, have learnt to cope with the POV expressed by Shri Iyyarooraan, and they are not, in the least, the losers.

 

[sravna]

I think there is some truth in what Shri.Iyyarooraan says though I would not be disapproving of it in the way Shri.Iyyarooraan is. Men in general show extreme behaviors unlike women who exhibit better average behavior.

Therefore you find more women who are attracted towards spirituality and in the same way towards worldly things and hence the attitude of needing to possess the best of both worlds.

 

[CLN]

sravna: Men in general show extreme behaviors unlike women who exhibit better average behavior.

Therefore you find more women who are attracted towards spirituality and in the same way towards worldly things and hence the attitude of needing to possess the best of both worlds.

I think, sravnaji, that there is a contradiction in the two paras. When we say "best of both worlds", particularly, when it is used in a contemptuous manner, as has been used in post #31 following which only the posts #32 till this mine post are being made, what is implied is that the person being accused of "best of both worlds" tendency is doing a mistake in wanting to have two extremes which is not practicable and so it is bound to end up in non-fulfilment of the intention of the person in question. If, as you say, 'women exhibit better average behavior', it only shows that they are more balanced and so will not go after the unrealizeable 'best of both worlds' target! On the other hand, again according to your analysis, as men tend to show extreme behaviour, they may tend to side with one extreme, not caring for the other, and so they also will not go for the 'best of both worlds' target! So, if your observation of men and women are true, neither men nor women will want to have 'best of both worlds'! Is that not so?

From these arguments, it only transpires that those who want 'best of both worlds' - irrespective of their being men or women - are people who are indecisive and confused. Steady men and steady women will never aim for 'best of both worlds' at all!

 

[sravna]

I think, sravnaji, that there is a contradiction in the two paras. When we say "best of both worlds", particularly, when it is used in a contemptuous manner, as has been used in post #31 following which only the posts #32 till this mine post are being made, what is implied is that the person being accused of "best of both worlds" tendency is doing a mistake in wanting to have two extremes which is not practicable and so it is bound to end up in non-fulfilment of the intention of the person in question. If, as you say, 'women exhibit better average behavior', it only shows that they are more balanced and so will not go after the unrealizeable 'best of both worlds' target! On the other hand, again according to your analysis, as men tend to show extreme behaviour, they may tend to side with one extreme, not caring for the other, and so they also will not go for the 'best of both worlds' target! So, if your observation of men and women are true, neither men nor women will want to have 'best of both worlds'! Is that not so?

From these arguments, it only transpires that those who want 'best of both worlds' - irrespective of their being men or women - are people who are indecisive and confused. Steady men and steady women will never aim for 'best of both worlds' at all!

Dear Shri CLN ji,

Whether women are more balanced than men is something not implied in my post though I believe that it is the case.

Let me make my point more clearly. Men, for example are more likely to exhibit extreme spirituality and absolutely no spirituality too. Women are more likely exhibit affinity towards both though both in moderation. Can that be called the right balance? I am afraid not, as perfect balance of mind is associated with extreme spirituality. Similarly men are more often associated with imbalance than women because of the extreme tendencies of men. And finally, the average woman is more balanced than the average man.

 

[sravna]

Anyone has any interesting hypothesis on why there is a lot more variance among men than among women in almost everything?

 

[CLN]

sravna: Let me make my point more clearly. Men, for example are more likely to exhibit extreme spirituality and absolutely no spirituality too. Women are more likely exhibit affinity towards both though both in moderation. Can that be called the right balance? I am afraid not, as perfect balance of mind is associated with extreme spirituality. Similarly men are more often associated with imbalance than women because of the extreme tendencies of men. And finally, the average woman is more balanced than the average man.

Dear Shri Sravna ji,

You are reconfirming exactly the same thing as what I have pointed out and so there is no difference in our views - except for the part I have underlined above. For me, 'balance of mind' is exactly that, i.e., a balance between the extremes - be it spirituality and materialism, or joy and sorrow, or, altruism and selfishness etc.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri CLN,

My view is higher spiritual qualities should not be treated as representing any extreme except in balance. These qualities together are complete in themselves and anything else in place of them, even little, is undermining that balance

 

[sravna]

On the differences between men and women and how their respective qualities ensure that neither has an enduring upper hand, I would say that the great force of a man is pitted against the seductive female who is something of a temptress to him and which has the power to subdue his force. Thus he is prevented from gaining a permanent upper hand over the female.

In the same way, for the female not to totally dominate the male, men are vested with greater resistance towards temptations. The reason that the conquest of all temptations is also the end point of evolution also would imply that there are more men at the extremes of spirituality who are fit enough to merge with brahman

 

[CLN]

Dear Shri CLN,

My view is higher spiritual qualities should not be treated as representing any extreme except in balance. These qualities together are complete in themselves and anything else, even little is undermining that balance

Dear Shri Sravna ji,

I sure respect your right to hold your POV. Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna ji,

I sure respect your right to hold your POV. Cheers!

Same here, Shri.CLN Ji!

 

[ganeshrev]

@CLN, KRS,Sangom,Saarangam sirs, thanks !

It hurts when people look at upper class Vairathodu Brahmin ladies and form a opinion.(Let me assume that Mr Iyyarooraan refers to TamBram ladies)

I myself coming from very modest back ground and seeing scores of other ladies who are from similar back ground, struggling to study, get a job, accommodating to In-laws, torn between professional and family responsibilities - can surely say that this opinion is based on Top 20% of Tamil Brahmin's Families who are in metros (I am consciously avoiding other communities since I have not seen how their family treats them).I also know how we bring up our daughters though our daughters are in better financial position and have more freedom than us.

Even today when I go to Tanjore, mayavaram etc and happen to visit distant cousins and relatives, the struggle these ladies go through can not be explained.

Regards
Revathi

 

[sravna]

Folks,

I do not imply any superiority of one power over the other when I talked about the respective powers of men and women. This also does not imply that either of them has greater qualities than the other.

The post was only speculating the possible spiritual significance of why men exhibit extreme tendencies in a certain aspect. Just wanted to clarify to preclude a misinterpretation.

 

[sravna]

If I may be allowed to digress a little, I would like to point out that hinduism associates feminine force to the universe and calls it prakriti or maya. The male force is associated with brahman and called the purusha. One is indispensable to the other and neither can be viewed in isolation. Thus with the concept of brahman comes maya. That is also the reason why Sankara's concept of maya logically follows from his concept of brahman and from our existence and in no way can be said to be borrowed from buddhism.

Coming back to the topic, in the big picture, the male-female relation is perfectly complementary in nature and people who swear by spiritualism well understand this and it is the worldly ones who lose sight of this big picture.

 

[CLN]

MEN and WOMEN, though they both belong to the same species of homo sapiens, are often viewed, by many people (both men and women!) as if they are quite very different from each other. John Gray, in his book titled "Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus", puts forth, with illustrations and persuasive arguments that in many respects men and women act and behave as if they are from different planets, justifying the choice of his book's title. Allan Pease & Barbara Pease, also point out in their book titled "Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps", spectacular differences between men and women, starting from how their brains are wired, elaborating in detail how men and women, perceive, think, act, understand and react differently even in identical situations and circumstances.

So, what is the reality? It is a difficult question to answer. The reason, IMO, is there is no man who is purely a MAN; and there is no woman who is purely a WOMAN. Every man possesses some womanliness too; and every woman, some manliness in her as well!

Outward physical distinctions are the easiest to be seen and understood right at the time of birth; the internal biological differences make themselves known when the person comes of age. But the psychological differences are so subtle and tend to wax and wane with time, place and experience, fluctuate and even mutate, that no expert can predict with even a reasonable certainty how exactly a certain man or a certain woman will behave in a particular situation. When such is the case, to dub all men together as a class or all women together as a class, and pass blanket judgments on them seems to me to be only chimerical exercises of idle minds. I intend no offence here to those who do so, but I only wish to point out to them that they are only wasting time.

 

[sangom]

But the psychological differences are so subtle and tend to wax and wane with time, place and experience, fluctuate and even mutate, that no expert can predict with even a reasonable certainty how exactly a certain man or a certain woman will behave in a particular situation. When such is the case, to dub all men together as a class or all women together as a class, and pass blanket judgments on them seems to me to be only chimerical exercises of idle minds. I intend no offence here to those who do so, but I only wish to point out to them that they are only wasting time.

Dear Shri CLN,

May I differ a little? It is true that what a particular person - male or female - will do in a particular situation can be predicted with good amount of accuracy, if one has experience of that person's past behaviour. But the topic here is not that. Generally women - from young girls to old women - have been sort of second class citizens under our Hindu Sastras. Just one telling example is that our Acharyas of Sankara mathams do not give "teertham" to widows growing hair. Long ago, once when the Sringeri Acarya came to TVPM, lot of such widows, in their usual religious fervour, used to throng his pooja and go in front of him for teertham. After one or two days there was announcement and notice that according to the rules of the matham, the Acarya has to take a purificatory bath, some rites to be performed and had to go without food for the entire day, if he happened to see a widow with hair, face to face. From the next day onwards, such people stopped going. Please note that our sastras do not impose any condition on a widower. But the rules for sanyasis of the Sankara mutts, I understand, also carry injunctions against travelling in any vehicle other than a palanquin. This rule is broken at will.

From such a second grade existence women's equality is slowly coming. (Though many women, and their menfolk too, as Ganeshrev says, are still struggling to make both ends meet.) Even girls and women from the poorest families do spend some money on "make-up", and if that is 'glamour', then it is welcome, I feel.

I do not agree with the interpretations given by Shri Sravna. There is no question of "seductive female" "temptress", "subduing the female force and the male gaining a permanent upper hand", etc. It is also a very laughable proposition "that there are more men at the extremes of spirituality who are fit enough to merge with brahman".

Man and woman have been envisaged by nature to work in close coordination (pun, if any, intended) and keep the species continuing. Hence seductin, temptation, etc., are all very much envisaged by nature. Their roles, their attitudes, their likes and dislikes, may all be different, but the key to happy and successful life is to make the best use of all such diversities to make a unified approach in life.