psychology of rapists

[C RAVI]

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I as a male refuse to accept that all males are predators. To blame a whole gender is wrong and insulting.
May be the present day Indian Males have different moral values.

BUT, you are ready at the drop of a hat to make a generalized statement that, may be present day Indian Males have different moral values and all males are predators??

You mean to say that Male Human species in America are different from Male Human species in India?? And you won't mind generalizing "All Men" of India as predators?

Open your Mind to grasp different inputs while debating on a particular topic. Just because you find a set of people's views/perspectives/facts different to that of yours, you making such a generalized statements in your attempt to deface your opponents would show your inefficiency.

 

[C RAVI]

Please be assured the protestation is not against men in general. It is only against rapists and attitude of some males towards rape.

Expressing a different perspective and an attempt to expose the fundamental reasons, than that of yours is considered to be a wrong attitude? If contrary views are considered as wrong attitude, than there is nothing called debate/exchange of ideas.

The very meaning of debate and the existence of debate is possible only if there exists opposing view points or multiple view points. If you say its the attitude problem, then any party can use the same reasoning against the other.

 

[sangom]

Mr. Sangom,
You have expressed some radical views, but this takes the cake.
Are you serious about Islam, <Edtd - KRS>.


Not in a million years, <Edtd - KRS>

Shri Prasad sir,

Don't worry, my mental state is as it was some months or years ago. FYKI, my family doctor 60+ is also a confirmed religiously conservative tabra and since his views on the so-called women's empowerment etc., are very similar to mine, I think he may not be able to diagnose any abnormality. The only course open then, is to approach a new-age psychologist; I do not propose to do that anyway.

You are sounding very appropriate when you say, "A country, a civilisation, a religion that does not value their women, is hell."; why not make it a bit longer and say "A country, a civilisation, a religion, a world that does not value their women, is hell.", and take steps to escape from this world itself? Sorry, this was not to offend you, but to point out the hollowness in your statement.

As you are aware our hindu religion also looks upon woman as chattel belonging to man, and no more. We have a very large and very very diverse population in this country and whether by mistake or ignorance, the GOI has been trying to bring in development in all the areas. The government's attempts to bring in economic development has succeeded, like the pastor's eggs, by being in good in parts; as regards cultural emancipation of people, it is a far cry despite the spread and coverage of the medias and we still have many villages in the tribal belief stage also. All such people do mix and mingle in our metros and cities. The result is that we have a situation in which a woman "has to be careful". Even in regard to the Nirbhaya incident my cousin's son, brought up and employed in Delhi told me that people generally do not go to the area in which Nirbhaya went along with her boyfriend to see the picture, unless they have their own transport; he wondered how, as a Delhi girl herself, Nirbhaya chose that theatre of all. A similar situation applies in most parts of the country and so we (myself, Ravi, etc.) say, once again, that if you are careful you will save trouble. (In Malayalam this adage is there : sūkṣiccāl- dukhikkeṇṭā (if you are careful, you don't have to worry). But it looks to me as though some people want their way at any cost, and my advice to such people is :dukhiccāl- sūkṣikkeṇṭā (if you are prepared to grieve over, you need not care at all for anything).

Our Bhavishya Purana it seems says that this kaliyuga will come to an end because of fight between men and women, and then the Kalki avataar will take place. Who knows, at the end of all this women's equality fights, the pan-islamic idea of most muslims may happen too!! But you and I may not be there as Prasad and sangom when such a thing happens.

 

[KRS]

Folks,

If only we all understand that it is a woman's business alone to decide whether she put herself in danger or not, as an adult, all this discussion would be moot.

Somehow any woman would put herself intentionally in danger is not valid. Rapes occur at a very high percentage (I think it is almost 90% of the time), with men known to the women. So, again, most women are very careful. The unfortunate incidents happen mostly with someone the woman trusts. Dress does not have anything to do with these.

Yes, the ladies need to be careful on this. But I hope, with the knowledge out there now and the widespread information available, they are careful.

Apart from this, I don't think I am going to impose a dress code on them, because almost all of them know this already.

Here, in this Forum itself, the ladies again and again talk about their experiences. Looks like, we men don't seem to listen to their voices. We are treating them as though they don't understand the issue. They are the ones who are impacted. What right is it of any man 'to protect the modesty of a woman' and preach to them?

Rape, again, is overwhelmingly a problem of men.

Regards,
KRS

 

[prasad1]

BUT, you are ready at the drop of a hat to make a generalized statement that, may be present day Indian Males have different moral values and all males are predators??

You mean to say that Male Human species in America are different from Male Human species in India?? And you won't mind generalizing "All Men" of India as predators?

Open your Mind to grasp different inputs while debating on a particular topic. Just because you find a set of people's views/perspectives/facts different to that of yours, you making such a generalized statements in your attempt to deface your opponents would show your inefficiency.

Ulta chor kothwal ko dante.

You and your elk is the one moralizing women about their dress, and writing that men get aroused and act on their impulses.
You do not know relationship at all.
A man and women working in an office or going to parties is not for sex alone.
I grew up in a joint family with mother & father, uncles & aunts, bothers & sis-in-law, Sisters & brother-in-law and various cousins all living under one roof. We were not rich to provide everyone with bedrooms. But there was no hanky panke going on. We did not consider women folks as sex objects. We had open discussion about anything and everything that was decent.

You do not understand or care that a women can be friends with a man without sleeping together. You are missing opportunity to be friends with oposite gender. I have great friend in my Yoga, dance, and swimming classes. We go out to coffee or lunches, and even dinner with family. My wife had her collage reunion in Delhi, and I got to meet all her class mates including male, again nobody talked about sex. It is sad day that young person like you who is well travelled has such low opinion of Indian Male and Indian female.

Get to make friends with oposite sex without your preconceived judgment of them. There are beautiful souls in women's bodies. I see female just as another person with a beautiful soul. You insulting people in this site, may be out of spite, but there is some thing beyond body. As Adi Shankar says in Bhaja Govindum:

nArI sthanabhara nAbhI desham Drushtva mAyA mohAvesham Yetan mAmsavasadi vikAram manasi vichintaya vAram vAram
A mind that is full of ignorance and filled with error in judgment wanders and creates lust at the sight of a
woman’s body. Reason it out and clarify to yourself; the body is only made up of muscles, fat, blood and
other functional ingredients (therefore there is nothing to get excited or passionate about the human body).

 

[sangom]

Folks,

If only we all understand that it is a woman's business alone to decide whether she put herself in danger or not, as an adult, all this discussion would be moot.

Somehow any woman would put herself intentionally in danger is not valid. Rapes occur at a very high percentage (I think it is almost 90% of the time), with men known to the women. So, again, most women are very careful. The unfortunate incidents happen mostly with someone the woman trusts. Dress does not have anything to do with these.

Yes, the ladies need to be careful on this. But I hope, with the knowledge out there now and the widespread information available, they are careful.

Apart from this, I don't think I am going to impose a dress code on them, because almost all of them know this already.

Here, in this Forum itself, the ladies again and again talk about their experiences. Looks like, we men don't seem to listen to their voices. We are treating them as though they don't understand the issue. They are the ones who are impacted. What right is it of any man 'to protect the modesty of a woman' and preach to them?

Rape, again, is overwhelmingly a problem of men.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri KRS,

Rape is a social problem, not overwhelmingly a problem of men - like enlargement of the prostate or testicular cancer - as you say.

Both the man and the woman are responsible for a rape happening. However, like in many things, it has been contorted today to suit the needs of today's women's libbers by the usual studies, samples, learned papers and so on. It may not be news to you but the US military has now many complaints of sexual assaults and President Obama has remarked that it is dangerous for national security. Do you think, therefore, that the US military somehow has the penchant for recruiting rapists?

The Malaysian women's organization says one rape every 15 minutes takes place in that country and one factor adduced is "government bent on wealth creation and the satisfaction of personal, private greed and consumption."; this exactly what happens in India too and both Malaysia and Indian governments are trying to 'ape the US" - in my parlance.

If you peruse rape statistics of the world, country wise, and go by your dictum that "Rape is overwhelmingly a problem of men.", it will show that something is basically and drastically wrong with the human males of the world. The one other possibility is that women, encouraged by the undue encouragement being given to their varied demands regarding rape, are using this as a method to hit back at the people whom they want. Even from this pov, rape is a matter for both man and woman to think about and find remedies.

In this effort, each country follows its own wisdom. What is good for one may not suit another. Indian wisdom is that women should dress in a modest manner in public so as not to arouse the lust in men who happen to see them. A good number of Indians including myself think so. And I am telling my view without any fear of not being acceptable to the neo-liberal crowds. That's all.

 

[C RAVI]

Ulta chor kothwal ko dante.

Totally out of context!

You and your elk is the one moralizing women about their dress, and writing that men get aroused and act on their impulses.

I know you and your like minded people can not understand what myself and my elk are talking OR just adamantly want to make twist and turns to reject our points. Your above statement makes this clear about your understanding.

We did not moralize women, we have cautioned them. Because we know that All Men Are Not Same! Unlike you people, closing the eyes and shutting the brain to convince yourself that "all men are same and all men should be same", we are telling the truth that MEN does get aroused and act on their impulses, seeing a exposing lady.

Go and spy what most of the teenaged school guys and college guys around the world are talking among themselves on seeing exposing girls. What they feel, how they feel, what they do and why they end up into self serving. May be then you will understand how men get aroused and act on their impulses.

Go and ask why many men want to see strip dancing and what are they getting out of it? Get to know what most of them would do after watching strip dancing.

Go and ask why many men watch porn videos and what they end up doing after watching.


May be, you then would understand if men get aroused and act on their impulses seeing sexually exposed lady.

The only difference is some men would control their impulses, some would control by doing self service and some indecent and distorted men would either indulge in some sort of sexual teasing/abusing or in rape.

You do not know relationship at all.
A man and women working in an office or going to parties is not for sex alone.

Seriously I wonder, where from you got in my post to conclude, I am stating that, men and women in an office go to party for sex?? LOL!! Are your really reading and understand my posts OR you are deliberately making such statements on your own??!!??

I said, even educated professional Men working of MNC/Corporate indulge in "Sexual Abuses". They abuse their own female colleagues. These women working in MNC/Corporate takes for granted that they can wear a sexy costume as they are partying with their own educated and descent colleagues. Unfortunately, they are disappointed by their own Male colleagues.

When such things are happening, what to say about ordinary men on the streets?

I grew up in a joint family with mother & father, uncles & aunts, bothers & sis-in-law, Sisters & brother-in-law and various cousins all living under one roof. We were not rich to provide everyone with bedrooms. But there was no hanky panke going on. We did not consider women folks as sex objects. We had open discussion about anything and everything that was decent.

Not only you had such a joint family, discussing everything under the sun between men and women of the family. There are many many such families and many descent and responsible men in our society.

Try to understand that people like you, me and other descent men are not the only survivors in our Indian Society. Not all Men are from a descent family. Not all Men are descent, law abiding, respectful towards females, holding self dignity & self respect and considerate towards women.

Please understand this fact!

You do not understand or care that a women can be friends with a man without sleeping together. You are missing opportunity to be friends with oposite gender. I have great friend in my Yoga, dance, and swimming classes. We go out to coffee or lunches, and even dinner with family. My wife had her collage reunion in Delhi, and I got to meet all her class mates including male, again nobody talked about sex. It is sad day that young person like you who is well travelled has such low opinion of Indian Male and Indian female.

Get to make friends with oposite sex without your preconceived judgment of them. There are beautiful souls in women's bodies. I see female just as another person with a beautiful soul. You insulting people in this site, may be out of spite, but there is some thing beyond body. As Adi Shankar says in Bhaja Govindum:

LOL!!!

How could you know and conclude that I don't have female friends?? ound:

Just because I don't go for a girl friend to have sexual partnership, it doesn't mean that I don't have good female friends who are proud to have my friendship.

Pathetically you are going beyond limits to make such statements on your own conclusions and giving an unsolicited suggestions, just for the sake of opposing me. LOL!!!, with out having anything to refute my points.

nArI sthanabhara nAbhI desham Drushtva mAyA mohAvesham Yetan mAmsavasadi vikAram manasi vichintaya vAram vAram
A mind that is full of ignorance and filled with error in judgment wanders and creates lust at the sight of a
woman’s body. Reason it out and clarify to yourself; the body is only made up of muscles, fat, blood and
other functional ingredients (therefore there is nothing to get excited or passionate about the human body).

If possible, teach this spiritual message to the wide spread distorted and hungry men in densely populated, poor and corrupted India.

May be you can achieve your expected positive results

 

[C RAVI]

Folks,

If only we all understand that it is a woman's business alone to decide whether she put herself in danger or not, as an adult, all this discussion would be moot.

Shri Krs,

We do agree that it's woman's business alone because whatever good or bad happens to them they are the recipient.

We are not here to impose our rules and regulations on them. Nor we are desperately expecting them to head to our caution.

We are just stating that wearing revealing dress do attract rape incidents. The debate is only revolving on if what we say makes sense or not.

Somehow any woman would put herself intentionally in danger is not valid. Rapes occur at a very high percentage (I think it is almost 90% of the time), with men known to the women. So, again, most women are very careful. The unfortunate incidents happen mostly with someone the woman trusts. Dress does not have anything to do with these.

Sir, we do know this. We know many men are raped by men known to them whom the women trusted all the while. We do admit that Dress does not matters.

Rapists are raping as young as 3 years baby, as old as 80 year old lady, a physically challenged lady, mentally retarded lady, stinking female beggars, pregnant lady and even boys. Also raping the dead body of a lady.

All we are saying is, ladies in exposing costumes stands risk of getting raped by hungry wanderers on the streets.

In many of the recent on going rape cases, there are as many rapes of unknown ladies by unknown men, as much as women raped by her known men. And that, in all of these cases dress was not the reason.

Yes, the ladies need to be careful on this. But I hope, with the knowledge out there now and the widespread information available, they are careful.

Apart from this, I don't think I am going to impose a dress code on them, because almost all of them know this already.

Here, in this Forum itself, the ladies again and again talk about their experiences. Looks like, we men don't seem to listen to their voices. We are treating them as though they don't understand the issue. They are the ones who are impacted. What right is it of any man 'to protect the modesty of a woman' and preach to them?

Rape, again, is overwhelmingly a problem of men.

Regards,
KRS

Yes women need to be careful. As long as they are careful, we are happy.

We do have come across such stories that women members here are sharing. We know what they are talking about.

Neither we are imposing any dress code. We are just highlighting some facts that they are many reasons behind rape incidents and sexually exposing one self as sex object to distorted filthy and hungry men would attract rape. We are cautioning them, no matter they know or not, given the thread topic.

Whether its purely Men problem or Not, the irony is our females are physically and mentally damaged.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Sangom Ji, Sir,

My response in 'blue' below.
But, before that, let me say this. There is a big difference between our thinking. I think that a government's job is not to moralize, and intrude in to an adult's bedroom. but to protect and solve any social ills. You like a top down iron hand approach. I am for individual freedom and choice, because I believe that people will ultimately make the right decisions for themselves, where as you seem to think they will go astray with individual freedom. I can give other examples, but for now, this will suffice and my response below should be viewed with this in mind.

Dear Shri KRS,

Rape is a social problem, not overwhelmingly a problem of men - like enlargement of the prostate or testicular cancer - as you say.
If murder is a social problem, then, yes this is also. But how does the society take care of murder? After the fact, they punish the perpetrator. No society, that I know of, would say that the dead victim is also a part of the murder problem, if only that victim was not there, did not raise the anger of the murderer, he/she would not have been murdered! As I have said many times on this topic, any number of research show that rape is a violent crime, almost always perpetrated as a byproduct of control and hate. Sex has nothing to do with it. Show me one research study that says that it is. I will reconsider my position.

I said 'overwhelmingly a man's problem' because, while the stunning majority of rapes are perpetrated by men, there are some lesbian and women on men rape cases also.

Both the man and the woman are responsible for a rape happening. However, like in many things, it has been contorted today to suit the needs of today's women's libbers by the usual studies, samples, learned papers and so on. It may not be news to you but the US military has now many complaints of sexual assaults and President Obama has remarked that it is dangerous for national security. Do you think, therefore, that the US military somehow has the penchant for recruiting rapists?
Again, women are the victims here. They 'do not ask' for it. The rapist controls the situation, not them. Please, show me any study that justifies your thesis that women are responsible. This is your opinion, not borne out by research data.

All over the world, in male dominated institutions where both men and women work side by side, and where the men hold power, sexual harassment and rapes occur. There are numerous cases around the world, including India. Lots of times, women are afraid to talk about this, but it is the truth. At least in USA, they are shining a bright light on this institutional problem. Your assumption here that US Armed Services are recruiting 'rapists' is off base.

The Malaysian women's organization says one rape every 15 minutes takes place in that country and one factor adduced is "government bent on wealth creation and the satisfaction of personal, private greed and consumption."; this exactly what happens in India too and both Malaysia and Indian governments are trying to 'ape the US" - in my parlance.'.
I don't know about you, but I don't connect wealth creation with 'personal, private greed and consumption'. Without wealth, civilization can not function. Without wealth, one can not create a just society. Communism and Socialism have not worked, precisely because of this wrong notion.

There is a big difference between the chance to exhibit own's own God given talents and becoming greedy; the former is assisted by the wealth of a nation and the latter is assisted by poverty and fear of wealth. 'Chee, Chee intha pazham pulikkum' syndrome.

I have said this before; it is no one's business on what a human being goes after legally, except for that human being. I have no problem if folks go after money, but personally I see that it does not suit my personality and values. That does not mean that those who do, should be barred from such activities.

If you peruse rape statistics of the world, country wise, and go by your dictum that "Rape is overwhelmingly a problem of men.", it will show that something is basically and drastically wrong with the human males of the world. The one other possibility is that women, encouraged by the undue encouragement being given to their varied demands regarding rape, are using this as a method to hit back at the people whom they want. Even from this pov, rape is a matter for both man and woman to think about and find remedies.
Well, how many women in your opinion, fall in to this category? Women letting themselves raped, so they can accuse the rapist without justification! Come on sir, you sound like a classic misogynist.

In this effort, each country follows its own wisdom. What is good for one may not suit another. Indian wisdom is that women should dress in a modest manner in public so as not to arouse the lust in men who happen to see them. A good number of Indians including myself think so. And I am telling my view without any fear of not being acceptable to the neo-liberal crowds. That's all.
No one is saying that women should not dress according to local standards. And most of them do, on their own volition, for their own safety. What they do not want is some men with wrong notions telling them what to wear within legal limits.

I have two fundamental issues with your assumptions:
1. That women invite rape by their dress - all the research I have seen refutes this.
2. Apart from defining what decency is for both men and women - as long as they both dress within that legal standard, I think it is an individual choice and more importantly a personal one.

Regards,
KRS

 

[sangom]

Dear Sri Sangom Ji, Sir,

My response in 'blue' below.
But, before that, let me say this. There is a big difference between our thinking. I think that a government's job is not to moralize, and intrude in to an adult's bedroom. but to protect and solve any social ills. You like a top down iron hand approach. I am for individual freedom and choice, because I believe that people will ultimately make the right decisions for themselves, where as you seem to think they will go astray with individual freedom. I can give other examples, but for now, this will suffice and my response below should be viewed with this in mind.
Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri KRS,

I agree that our views are radically different. Which of us is correct, even the future may not tell or reveal, because rape is a crime that will exist as long as man and woman exist. In my view, rape is just a modification of sexual intercourse and that was why, at the last moment, the cabinet committee in India decided not to include "marital rape" in their newly proposed law. Kindly discuss these points with some Indian lawyer because US might have progressed on to some new level of thinking on rape as a crime.

Now, coming to your remarks :

If murder is a social problem, then, yes this is also. But how does the society take care of murder? After the fact, they punish the perpetrator. No society, that I know of, would say that the dead victim is also a part of the murder problem, if only that victim was not there, did not raise the anger of the murderer, he/she would not have been murdered! As I have said many times on this topic, any number of research show that rape is a violent crime, almost always perpetrated as a byproduct of control and hate. Sex has nothing to do with it. Show me one research study that says that it is. I will reconsider my position.

AFAIK, Indian law and case law makes allowance for the circumstances of a murder. If the court is satisfied that the murderer had been "provoked" by the victim or others to commit the crime in a moment of fury, the punishment awarded is light; in any case, death sentence for murder is not at all there and it has become difficult to find hangmen in many states.

It is therefore not completely correct to have the impression that the actions of the murder victim have absolutely no bearing on the judgment of the crime.

Shri Govinda has since furnished a new study or report which differs radically from the hate/control>rape theory. If the hate theory is true then misogynists will be potential rapists; but do we have any study to corroborate this? Rape is lust overflowing, blindly, without human control, according to me. All these new-fangled theories like hate/control etc., are designed so as to subserve the aims of the women's libbers. Some menfolk who are commonly called "joLLu pErvazhi" in Tamil, find extreme happiness in catering to women (of any age) and their every whims and fancies; such studies and findings are probably products of such men.

Again, women are the victims here. They 'do not ask' for it. The rapist controls the situation, not them. Please, show me any study that justifies your thesis that women are responsible. This is your opinion, not borne out by research data.

"Studies", as I said earlier aremost usually, fabricated with an agenda. India is not yet good in it. But even in the 'suryanelli' rape case - in which the Dy. Chairman of the Rajya Sabha, the judge who delivered the judgment has stuck to his views (that the past conduct of the girl is material evidence - according to Indian criminal law; except V.R. Krishna Iyer - an opportunist who allowed the infamous 'emergency' - no other legal personality has so far found fault with him.) So, if our discussions here in this Forum are with reference to Indian law and jurisprudence of today, the role of the rape victim will continue to form material evidence in rape cases for the judge to arrive at the quantum of punishment - not to deny the rape happening. Hence the women who are raped are also important in so far as rape cases in India are concerned.

May be US has different views but it is not correct to judge India from the narrow "US alone counts" pov.

All over the world, in male dominated institutions where both men and women work side by side, and where the men hold power, sexual harassment and rapes occur. There are numerous cases around the world, including India. Lots of times, women are afraid to talk about this, but it is the truth. At least in USA, they are shining a bright light on this institutional problem. Your assumption here that US Armed Services are recruiting 'rapists' is off base.

I was also not making a direct statement. The very fact that men across the board - in the army, institutions, organizations, in the streets, casinos, bars and so on, virtually men of every kind and type and financial, social, cultural, educational standards - do become rapists will mean that this is not a "deviant" male symptom as is sought to be made out by those "studies" of rapes, but it is a male trait in general, according to me. But I can well realize the predicament for some "honourable men" in accepting this simple truth today. Our forefathers knew this (and this is supported by stories in the Puranas too) and hence laid down the rules for modest dressing by women. Islam also did the same thing; possibly other ancient religions also had similar rules. Only the tribals in the amazon valley like the Yawalapiti allow (rather insist on) their females to be naked, but we have very little knowledge about their sexual mores and concept of rape etc. Hence, in all other social groups there is a concept of what constitutes "modest dress". The extreme individual liberty of "it is a woman's sole concern as to how she will dress" does not probably work in most societies; and it is not fair to impose the US standards on every one.

There is a big difference between the chance to exhibit own's own God given talents and becoming greedy; the former is assisted by the wealth of a nation and the latter is assisted by poverty and fear of wealth. 'Chee, Chee intha pazham pulikkum' syndrome.

I have said this before; it is no one's business on what a human being goes after legally, except for that human being. I have no problem if folks go after money, but personally I see that it does not suit my personality and values. That does not mean that those who do, should be barred from such activities.

This is not from my post under reply and I don't remember having written these words elsewhere. Kindly check and let me know. This looks completely out of the context - some copy/paste from somewhere else!

Well, how many women in your opinion, fall in to this category? Women letting themselves raped, so they can accuse the rapist without justification! Come on sir, you sound like a classic misogynist.

In regard to sec. 498 (a) of the IPC, dealing with dowry harassment, it is now fairly common knowledge in India that there is rampant misuse of it in India. Therefore, at least in countries like India, there is a strong possibility that some percentage of the reported rape complaints could be "trapped" victims being charged as rapists, I believe. And, unlike sec 498 (a), the accused will have absolutely no defence if an intercourse has indeed been permitted and the medical evidence is there.

In some of the widely publicised rape cases in Kerala, I have heard from reliable sources that first a "willing" girl/young woman is set up, sexual intercourse is performed by the coterie, and then they find out possible "targets" - men from different walks of life who were present in the area where the girl/young woman was staying on the particular day and then a final list of so many people who had raped this girl/young woman is prepared as part of the "mahassar". Hence, nothing is beyond possibility. But it may appear as misogyny to you, because you do not know the ground reality in India.

No one is saying that women should not dress according to local standards. And most of them do, on their own volition, for their own safety. What they do not want is some men with wrong notions telling them what to wear within legal limits.

I think either men or women or both should have a say in what can be worn. We are not setting any legal limits here and you know well, we don't have the powers to do so. What we are saying is advice and caution.

I have two fundamental issues with your assumptions:
1. That women invite rape by their dress - all the research I have seen refutes this.
2. Apart from defining what decency is for both men and women - as long as they both dress within that legal standard, I think it is an individual choice and more importantly a personal one.

1. I do not believe in the 'researches'; kindly see the paper furnished by Shri Govinda. I believe women increase the possibility of rape by means of their dress.
2. I don't think there is any clear legal definition of "indecent exposure" in Indian Law. (If there is, knowledgeable members may kindly write.) Hence, it will be dependent upon the local society's common standards and perception. Policemen do arrest many people suspected to be prostitutes, in Mumbai, for indecent behaviour/exposure because this is such a vaguely (un) defined term in the Bombay Police Act, 1951.

When there is no legal standard it becomes all the more necessary to conform to locally acceptable/tolerable standard and not go by the "individual liberty without limit" concept.

 

[sarang]

Indians are more virtuous as far as rape is concerned! Don't belittle indian male

If UN published sexual violence and rape statistics are are to be believed, we are far far better than mist of the liberal, free thinking and free sex countries.

But on reporting we will beat all by a huge margin. Every incident is run 24 hours a day, with looping of shots, panel discussions, expert interviews, march by women's right groups, inept police - all lasting several days.
[h=2]UN Sexual Violence against Children & Rape Statistics[/h]Country Rate per 100,000 population (year 2010)

Botswana 92.9
Sweden 63.5
Australia 28.6
Belgium 27.9
UK 27.7
USA 27.3
Newzeland 25.8
Norway 19.2
Finland 15.2
Austria 10.4
Germany 9.4
Switzerland 7.1
Thailand 6.7
India 1.8
Canada 1.7
Japan 1.0

Rape statistics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nara]

It is indeed true that the norms of India are different from that in the West. In the West it is broadly accepted that in the case of rape the blame is entirely upon the rapist, be it male or female (yes, some men are raped too, and in the US military there are more male victims of sexual assault than female). Going by the discussion here, and my own personal experience having lived in India during my formative years, I know that victim blaming in case of rape is not uncommon -- she should have dressed more modestly, she shouldn't have gone out at that time, etc., etc. In this respect, the norm and culture prevailing in India sucks, it would be best for all concerned if it learns a thing or two from the West in this respect, not that the West is perfect, but it is certainly better in this regard.

Also, IMO, this is not an issue to be parochial, rape anywhere must be condemned and blame squarely placed on the perpetrator, whether in India, or the West, or anywhere else -- whatever may be the soceital norm -- whatever may be the motivation, lust or control/domination.

BTW, I think a man with uncontrollable lust can and perhaps will get provoked even by fully clad women burqua style, opportunity is what he would be looking for, no? If there are men who can't control themselves, then it is their fault, not the women who get him going -- for such people even fully clad women can seem irresistible.

Dileepan

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prof Sir,

Welcome! What a topic to bring you back to your friends!!

P.S: I was a sort of expecting you to appear! :spy:

 

[tks]

Welcome back Sri Nara

 

[Nara]

Welcome! What a topic to bring you back to your friends!!

Dear Mrs. RR, Messrs. Raghy, Sangom, KRS, tks, and others who may like seeing me back, thank you for welcoming me back, I appreciate it.

To those who may be weary of seeing me here again, please rest assured, my plan is to be heard only sparingly.

P.S: I was a sort of expecting you to appear!

No Mrs. RR, the credit or blame for my return goes to a dear friend expressing a wish that I come back which I could refuse no more.

"with malice toward none, charity toward all" I hope I don't disappoint those have welcomed me back, Dileepan

 

[Nara]

Rape, murder, and courage of a little girl -- why can't she stay home and keep quiet?

Outlawed in Pakistan | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[tbs]

hi nara sir,
welcome back....ONCE A TB FORUM MEMBER...ALWAYS A TB MEMBER...sometimes a break required....lol

 

[Raji Ram]

......... No Mrs. RR, the credit or blame for my return goes to a dear friend expressing a wish that I come back which I could refuse no more.

"with malice toward none, charity toward all" I hope I don't disappoint those have welcomed me back, Dileepan

Dear Prof Sir,

I expected 'that' friend to bring you back. Hope you got it!!

 

[Raji Ram]

Rape, murder, and courage of a little girl -- why can't she stay home and keep quiet?

Outlawed in Pakistan | FRONTLINE | PBS

This video is banned in India! But the news is here:

[h=2]Rape and Justice in Pakistan: Live Chat Wed. 2pm ET[/h]

 

[C RAVI]

Delhi: Gangrape Accused Freed, Girl Faces Perjury Charge

Source - outlookindia.com, more than just the news magazine from India



Delhi: Gangrape Accused Freed, Girl Faces Perjury Charge | news.outlookindia.com

Implicating two youths in heinous crime like gangrape has boomeranged on a 20-year-old girl as a Delhi court not only allowed the accused to walk free but also ordered her prosecution for the offence of perjury.

The court, which said it cannot restore the "lost honour" of the accused, also noted, "It is very regrettable that a trend has set in now a days where the investigating officers dance to the tunes of the girl complaining of rape, completely throwing to winds their duties and responsibilities."

"This is a fit case where the prosecutrix (girl) deserves to be proceeded against for committing the offences punishable under section 193/196 (giving false evidence in a judicial proceeding) of the IPC," additional sessions judge Virender Bhat said.

The court ordered that copy of its judgement be sent to Delhi Police Commissioner and others so that efforts can be taken to "sensitise" and "train" police officers to conduct probe in such cases with "an open mind without treating the statement of the girl as gospel truth".

 

[sarang]

No hot pants on this bus! Cover up, says Beijing police

We orientals think alike! indi chini bai bai! I believe the pedestrian overbridge in the gandhinagar bus stand in coimbatore provided a similar view for loiters on the road! There was a strong demand to cover the gaps in the steps.

[h=1]No hot pants on this bus! Cover up, says Beijing police[/h]
"As complaints of sexual harassment of women in public transport increased in Beijing, the Beijing Police has warned women against wearing "minimal clothing" like mini skirts or hot pants while travelling in buses and subways."Women should not wear minimal clothing, such as mini skirts or hot pants when taking public transportation and should call police promptly if they are sexually harassed," the guidelines published by Beijing police and public transport authorities said, state run China Daily reported.

"Women are advised to not sit on higher levels of buses and to stand on lower stairs, to avoid being the target of inappropriate picture-taking, and they should shelter their bodies with bags, magazines and newspapers," it said.

"Commenting on the new rule Jiang Yue, a law professor at Xiamen University and an expert in women's rights, said the advisory from police will not solve the problem at its root.

"Jiang suggested a law to prevent sexual harassment, adding harassment affects men as well as women.

No hot pants on this bus! Cover up, says Beijing police - Rediff.com News

 

[prasad1]

It is sad day that we have to run to the trash mountain to find an example for the untenable position one has taken. If you say women should be in burka all the time, go home and convince your wife and children first. Go to your nieces and ask them to dress in Burka. Indians are far more advanced and emancipated to accept your 14th century views.

You are trying to control women's life. I am sure you have failed in your personal life.

 

[sangom]

It is sad day that we have to run to the trash mountain to find an example for the untenable position one has taken. If you say women should be in burka all the time, go home and convince your wife and children first. Go to your nieces and ask them to dress in Burka. Indians are far more advanced and emancipated to accept your 14th century views.

You are trying to control women's life. I am sure you have failed in your personal life.

Dear Shri Prasad,

I know you live in the US and may at best visit India occasionally.

You are not quite correct when you declare, without any basis, "Indians are far more advanced and emancipated to accept your 14th century views." The reality is very different although, egged on by media hype and strident, so-called women's empowerment notions, many females today, even in India, seem to believe in "minimum cover and maximum exposure". Contrary to what yourself and people of your kind (whom I call our expat gurus) seek to advise us, Indians, there still is a good cross section of women around here who believe that revealing clothes will titillate male minds and some of them may be driven to the extreme of rape. (Kindly see the attached press cutting scan.)

India (and perhaps China) are yet underdeveloped countries and for most menfolk, rape is not any different from sexual intercourse, one in which "he" has his way. Realizing this situation only, our Parliament kept out "marital rape" from out of the purview of the latest legislation, probably. Again, the possibility of misuse of any legal provision by women themselves is also very high and concrete in India. (Please see Ravi's post here.) Even the psychologists do not seem to think that a rapist is a genetic aberration as some of you hold, based on some so-called learned studies (again, see the attachment).

China knows what is good for that country just as the Taliban knew what was good for Afghanistan, some years ago. Let Indians in India be left to fend for themselves.

I will therefore request that the western standards of women's freedom and equality may not be imposed from above on under-developed countries like India, China, etc. You will notice from the attachment that even the avant garde womenfolk, psychologists, etc., here have yet to be completely proselytized to the western ways of thinking on this issue.

Yesterday, I was remarking to someone that the Shannar women fought for their right to cover their breasts once upon a time but now women of all categories are fighting to go almost naked!! Moral of the story — women will always ask for the impossible.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Shri Prasad,


Yesterday, I was remarking to someone that the Shannar women fought for their right to cover their breasts once upon a time but now women of all categories are fighting to go almost naked!! Moral of the story — women will always ask for the impossible.

:lol:

 

[Nara]

...

China knows what is good for that country just as the Taliban knew what was good for Afghanistan, some years ago. Let Indians in India be left to fend for themselves.

I will therefore request that the western standards of women's freedom and equality may not be imposed from above on under-developed countries like India, China, etc.

Dear Shri Sangom,

It is widely accepted that there are certain principles that transcend national boundaries and cultural peculiarities. As members of earthly beings we all have a duty to call out transgression of such principles without regard to nationality, culture, or religion. I am surprised by the mention of Taliban -- destroying Buddha of Bamiyan or forbidding education for girls can never be justified with “Taliban knew what was good for Afghanistan”.

Given the dangers and the society’s disgraceful response of blaming the victim, it is certainly a good idea to advise girls to be vigilant. However, when sexual assault occurs there cannot be any equivocation on who to blame. A culture that allows the victim to be criticized in any way needs to be criticized -- leave us alone because it is our culture can never be allowed as a rational defense.

BTW, it is summer here and on campus girls mill about as though there is a competition among them as to who wears the skimpiest clothes. They are surrounded by young boys, yet nobody even gets ogled openly, let alone molested. The West in general and the U.S. in particular is no slouch when it comes to violence against women and they have a lot to answer for. But, at least, they don’t blame the victim and that is something that West can tell other nations and cultures to adopt.

best ...