Racism in the U.S.

[KRS]

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Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

Though younger than you, but still probably one of the oldest in this Forum, I also went through a health incidence for a few months when I had to drop out.

Please take care and do not strain yourself. Come back once you are 100% okay. All the best.

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri.Sangom, Greetings.



It is very nice to see someone coming up with a proposal. I am willing to contribute towards such a cause.

I have no knowledge about the subject when it comes to scriptures. I was under the impression, most of these sciptures are available on line.

I am looking forward to hear more about this effort, please.

Cheers!

Yes it is very nice of Sangom Sir to come up with a proposal.

As for availability of scriptures, it is not true. You can get VCDs/ DVDs explaining how to do Sandhya Vandanam or Ganapati Homam. But there is not a single video or book which teaches how to do Vedic chanting.

The only places which teach suktams and related vedic material are Arya Samaj and Satya Sai centres. In Satya Sai centres, the actual technique however is not taught. Instead students mug up the verses with the accents as intoned by the teacher.

Please see the technique explained here to understand what i mean. This gentleman (arya) is giving an udharta (example) of how the hasta (arm) is used in teaching of swaras or tonal changes in vedic chanting- Vedic chanting: technics of learning the vedic accents (speaking sanskrit) - YouTube

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Raghy Sir,

In addition to the above video, the below also demonstrate the technique part a bit more:

1) The Tradition of Vedic Chanting - YouTube
2) Veda, Vedic teaching, Hindu scriptures, learning, Thrissur, Kerala, India - YouTube
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IQHdXhmxhw&feature=relmfu

I am interested in knowing if anyone knows of even a single book or video that explains various techniques deployed to teach/learn vedic chanting, either online or anywhere else.

Regards.

 

[sangom]

Smt. HappyHindu,

Though much is made of "correct chanting" of the vedas and the swaras, etc., imho, it has very little substance. Veda chanting by an Indore-based and north Indain-trained vedic scholar will be completely different (I have heard this, so...) from the manner in which our southern pundits chant; in fact, the northies make fun of the southies, saying they don't recite vedas but fire bullets and cannons! I have listened to one Assamese pundit reciting mantras in a third style, but I don't know whether it was his mannerism only or whether he represented faithfully, the chanting of mantras in those parts.

Yes, the swaras have a great lot of significance but I do not think there are more than a handful of pundits in the whole of India today, who will be well-versed in these principles as Sayanacharya was, going by his commentary on Rigveda.

And our scriptures are verily an ocean. A few items like suktams or mantras will form only a drop of that ocean. Maharishi University seems to have a good collection but they will only train students their own peculiar interpretations of those texts.

That is why I suggest a secular and rational set-up in which interested students from all sections of society can study the hindu scriptures.

Acharya Narendra Bhushan who taught the swami who has since been admitted to Sringeri, was very close to what I have in mind but still he would not go far enough to point out any great holes in the scriptures because I think he was an arya samajist.

So, the first and most important need is collection of our religious lore which itself is a himalayan task, imo. I do not think the wearing of poonal alone will create inclusiveness in the minds of NBs because today there are brahmins and brahmins wearing longish poonals but no different in their lifestyle from that of many NBs (non-veg food, drinks/bars and so on.) and there are many brahmins who have discarded the poonal.
​

 

[prasad1]

Sangom sir wonderful post#204

 

[happyhindu]

Though much is made of "correct chanting" of the vedas and the swaras, etc., imho, it has very little substance. Veda chanting by an Indore-based and north Indain-trained vedic scholar will be completely different (I have heard this, so...) from the manner in which our southern pundits chant; in fact, the northies make fun of the southies, saying they don't recite vedas but fire bullets and cannons! I have listened to one Assamese pundit reciting mantras in a third style, but I don't know whether it was his mannerism only or whether he represented faithfully, the chanting of mantras in those parts.

Yes, the swaras have a great lot of significance but I do not think there are more than a handful of pundits in the whole of India today, who will be well-versed in these principles as Sayanacharya was, going by his commentary on Rigveda.

And our scriptures are verily an ocean. A few items like suktams or mantras will form only a drop of that ocean. Maharishi University seems to have a good collection but they will only train students their own peculiar interpretations of those texts.

That is why I suggest a secular and rational set-up in which interested students from all sections of society can study the hindu scriptures.

Acharya Narendra Bhushan who taught the swami who has since been admitted to Sringeri, was very close to what I have in mind but still he would not go far enough to point out any great holes in the scriptures because I think he was an arya samajist.

So, the first and most important need is collection of our religious lore which itself is a himalayan task, imo. I do not think the wearing of poonal alone will create inclusiveness in the minds of NBs because today there are brahmins and brahmins wearing longish poonals but no different in their lifestyle from that of many NBs (non-veg food, drinks/bars and so on.) and there are many brahmins who have discarded the poonal.

Dear Sir,

I think tehre is a small misunderstanding. Shri Raghy felt scriptures are available online. There are other posters also, who keep saying everything is available in books and videos. The context of my post was to show that this claim is not wholly true. The printed format of scriptures are available alright, but there is not one video/book anywhere that teaches the chanting part.

Ofcourse we cannot deny regional variations and accentuation varying even between individuals. A lot also depends on the teacher and which veda he adheres to. Am quite aware a samavedin could intone and chant the same verse differently from a yajurvedin. However, the pedagogy part in teaching/learning vedic chanting does not vary much between regions.

Generally, afai understand, purohits are not very fussy about sharing their chanting skills. I have heard of experiences with priests from Karnataka, Andhra, UP, MP and Tamilnadu. It seems priests from various places in these states, are open-hearted type and keen to clear your doubts and share their knowledge with you.

Considering that priests almost everywhere are affable and approchable, it is baffling why only a tiny miniscule section of orthodox priests/mutts wanted (and want) to keep alive birth-based segregations/ exclusivism so far. Anyways, lets leave that aside.

Your proposal to collect religious lore is in my view a herculean task. I don't even think it is necessary, considering that there are sanskrit-teaching departments and various folk and tribal research groups already doing that job. Moreover, the printed format of almost all scriptures are freely available in virtual and physical book stores.

The point is not about collecting religious scriptures, or about what 'brahmins' do in daily lives, etc. It is about initiating anyone into an upanayanam and teaching vedic chanting. Also, i've never suggested wearing poonul alone will suffice.

Regards.

 

[sangom]

The point is not about collecting religious scriptures, or about what 'brahmins' do in daily lives, etc. It is about initiating anyone into an upanayanam and teaching vedic chanting. Also, i've never suggested wearing poonul alone will suffice.

Regards.

Smt. HappyHindu,

"Upanayanam" today refers to investing a boy (only, and not girls) with a poonal. It has lost almost all other relevances, except for children who are sent to vedapatashalas, or kids of purohits and priests and other highly orthodox families which are decreasing day by day, imo.

Vedic chanting has been an exercise of committing to memory the nuances of swaras and other details of the audio part and it does not give much importance at all. See RV. VII. 103 in which the veda-learning students (brahmins) are compared to frogs imitating one another's croaking. Yaska's nirukta also states that the meanings of many vedic words were not clearly understood even in his time and lists out such words. So, I think it is safe to conclude that "veda chanting" was purely for equipping the student/s to perform sacrificial duties and was not supposed to make them conversant with the meanings, inner meanings, etc.

I do not know which class of people you are referring to when you say, "I have heard of experiences with priests from Karnataka, Andhra, UP, MP and Tamilnadu. It seems priests from various places in these states, are open-hearted type and keen to clear your doubts and share their knowledge with you." If you are referring to the purohits or vadhyars (as we call them ordinarily) then I feel either your info is not right or you have come across some exceptions only. Generally, the priests are very much like the TN priests; they know very little but many of them have the gift of the gab to explain mantras and give the meanings which they think each mantra has to have .

As regards, temple priests they are much less learned in veda. With a small stock of some mantras they become temple priests and use the same mantras in temples of other deities also. For example, I have seen priests in Varanasi temple (Shiva and its sub-temples) merrily reciting "Krishnaaya vaasudevaaya....etc." and taking currency notes from gullible illiterate folks as well as educated-looking people (I refused money, so one fellow cursed me, in desi hindi!).

I therefore still feel that what we need is more perhaps an academic, logical study of the scriptures and not some notional "upanayanam". May be your view is the correct one but I do not find any valid reason to change mine.

 

[renuka]

Dear Y,

Thank you so much for your kind wishes.

In 2007 I got a vertigo attack which the doctor diagnosed as due to ayurvedic medicines having "spoiled" my stomach considerably. (He confidently states that human brain and stomach have very close and immediate connection, which has not been fully understood so far.) His treatment which involves bed rest, was effective then and he had cautioned me that this would recur anytime and nobody can predict.

Now I had another attack and was taking medicines and in bed for two days. Now I feel better but am not able to sit before computer and type for long. So, may be I will have to do such "disappearing acts" in future also, since age is always....increasing only

Dear Sangom,

You must have had what is known as Vestibular Neuronitis which causes severe vertigo and at times almost impossible to get up a walk.Even a movement of the head will make us feel as if there is some liquid moving around in a shape of a compact disc in our head.

Once you have had an attack like this..you are always prone to getting it anytime..stress,eye strains and even simple Upper respiratory infections can be trigger factors.

Its like our whole fine tuning,balancing and alignment gone out of track.

Once you are well try considering some yoga poses(you might already be knowing for all I know).
Certain poses help the inner ear apparatus to regain its balancing function.

You may want to eat Gingko Biloba leaves which do help in this condition(take fresh ones).
Please discuss this option with your doctor as I do not know if you are currently taking any long term medication for any other condition that may interact with Gingko.

Get well soon..God Bless You.

 

[happyhindu]

I therefore still feel that what we need is more perhaps an academic, logical study of the scriptures and not some notional "upanayanam". May be your view is the correct one but I do not find any valid reason to change mine.

Dear Sir,

I do agree with the need for academic logical study of scriptures. Such a set-up will be appealing to folks like yourself and me. Am not sure this will, in anyway, help bridge the gap for NBs who seek inclusiveness thru upanayanams and initiation into vedavidya.

There are so many hindu organisations teaching kids, like satya sai centres, balavihar classes, arya samaj classes, brahmakumaris, sahaj yoga, etc, etc. All of these teach vedanta and none (except arya samaj), teach vedic chanting afaik. There are bright young kids in these places, and i see nothing wrong in extending the teaching of vedas to such kids.

i suppose we are both talking of different contexts...anyways, will keep in touch reg this over emails.

Best wishes.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sir,

I do agree with the need for academic logical study of scriptures. Such a set-up will be appealing to folks like yourself and me. Am not sure this will, in anyway, help bridge the gap for NBs who seek inclusiveness thru upanayanams and initiation into vedavidya.

There are so many hindu organisations teaching kids, like satya sai centres, balavihar classes, arya samaj classes, brahmakumaris, sahaj yoga, etc, etc. All of these teach vedanta and none (except arya samaj), teach vedic chanting afaik. There are bright young kids in these places, and i see nothing wrong in extending the teaching of vedas to such kids.

i suppose we are both talking of different contexts...anyways, will keep in touch reg this over emails.

Best wishes.

Smt. HH,

Pl. see the portion emphasized (by me). I do not know how far it is correct to say that "NBs seek inclusiveness thru upanayanams and initiation into vedavidya." May be this is true of a few NB groups (castes) in TN. But afalk NBs in many other parts of India couldn't care less for upanayanam and initiation into veda chanting. May be its time is over and the NBs have found that the 'vedavidya' of brahmins has been utterly powerless before laws made by the Parliament in which NBs are also equal representatives.

Anyway, if some student desires upanayanam and initiation into vedavidya it should be possible for the academic set-up I envision. But the teaching will be more on learning the import of the scriptures.

 

[happyhindu]

Smt. HH,

Pl. see the portion emphasized (by me). I do not know how far it is correct to say that "NBs seek inclusiveness thru upanayanams and initiation into vedavidya." May be this is true of a few NB groups (castes) in TN. But afalk NBs in many other parts of India couldn't care less for upanayanam and initiation into veda chanting. May be its time is over and the NBs have found that the 'vedavidya' of brahmins has been utterly powerless before laws made by the Parliament in which NBs are also equal representatives.

Anyway, if some student desires upanayanam and initiation into vedavidya it should be possible for the academic set-up I envision. But the teaching will be more on learning the import of the scriptures.

Well sir, i come across and hear about children in various hindu centres (aryasamaj classes, in certain yoga classes teaching vedanta, etc), interested in vedic chanting. Am not interested in finding out their caste. Obviously they are NBs.

Some of them have parents who are members of hindu foundations or centres and are quite vocal about their wishes (incidentally, many hindu organisations / centres are loaded with NBs, including the global hindu foundation or ghhf, which petitions things for a political move).

In a madrassa, all kids are taught equally. An imam's son or a kazi'son is not seen as someone seperate or special due to his birth, due to which he is given segregated-training.

I suppose in near future, various hindu centres will also start imparting equal knowledge to all kids, with upanayanams and vedic chanting classes. There can't be anything stopping these kids from brahmanizing themselves (converting into brahmins, while also holding secular jobs)..

I suppose there can be no opposition to this from the miniscule orthodox adherents of mutts (the special vox populi who somehow want to keep birth-based discrimination intact).

This is what i meant.

Eventually someday, the birth-based hegemony is bound to collapse (as it already has in some part); and mutts cannot remain holding on to birth-based discrimination...

Ofcourse those who are interested, can go for indepth studies, or rational/logical analysis of scriptures, thru some studies on the side, if they wish to...

Regards.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Sangom, Dear Sowbagyavathy Happyhindu,

Kindly bear with me please. I will get back with responses for your lovely posts bit later. Sorry for not partcipating now.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

i see no harm in mutts wanting to adhere birth based brahmin kulam,its a atter of right as an indian to have this.just as tamil sangam is there wherein only tamils get recognised similiarly so birth based brahmin sangam should be allowed without any discrimination.anyways brahmins are minority as well as economically middle class,so hardly a big deal about it.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri.Sangom, Dear Sowbagyavathy Happyhindu,

Kindly bear with me please. I will get back with responses for your lovely posts bit later. Sorry for not partcipating now.

Cheers!

Raghy Sir, i feel better we cut the discussion actually. Lest we have guns blazing over "community interest" (wonder what does the term mean though)...anyways, the topic/thread has gotten old so better we meet over it in some other thread some other time. Regards.