Reason for Conversion to Islam/Christianity ?

[KRS]

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Dear Sri sapr333,

Please do not mock. Enough is enough already. This is your first warning. Two strikes, you are out.

Regards,
KRS

 

[sapr333]

I'm not sure, where I mocked.

But in good spirit, I do sincerely apologize from the bottom of my heart, for hurting someone.

 

[happyhindu]

Happy.Hindu]]] Dear HH, How much your question is a valid one, in line with the forum mission?... If so, and if I were to respond you with an 'entirely opposite view', how would my response be falling/useful to the forum's mission?. Please give me a conving answer to the second question, upon which I will make up my mind to respond to you. Btw, I liked your question, and I can share a long thought on this, in terms of defining,what Abuse is all about

Sapr,

This is a hindu centric forum, and a brahmin-centric one, designed to uphold traditions and benefit the brahmin community.

As regards my position, am clear that am not a brahmin (my guru does not consider himself as having attained complete understanding of 'brahman' as yet, and considers himself a brahmachari but not a brahmin as yet, though born in a family of priests; and for a beginner like me i do not dare call myself anywhere close to a brahmin. i accept all definitions of a brahmin as defined by various schools, but personally i have been tending to follow monastic vedantin yoga schools).

What i am is that i am a lover of brahmanical cultures (i also love other cultures so i tend to pick and choose, and that part is my own shortcoming). And i wish well for the brahmin as well as all of the hindu community.

All in all: i am very clear that no-matter-what, i support my hindu brethern.

This does not mean blind support. If there is fraud happening in hinduism, i will accept it and try to find ways to mitigate it.

I do think the question i posed to you was in line with the forum's mission. It does concern hindus. It does not matter if your view is opposite or not.

Am not interested in beating around the bush trying to define abuse according to individual yardsticks. Therefore i wud not really appreciate a long (or longwinded) thot on your definition of abuse.

Sure you can touch upon abuse (in brief), but what i wud expect is a direct answer on whether or not the vandalism and abuse of gods and goddesses by missionaries is an ethical thing to do.

 

[KRS]

Dear sapr333,

Please go away. We do not think you have our interest in your heart. Why do you want to hang around? Your life is not going to be pleasant here anymore.

Your insincere apology is not okay anymore. Answer the questions raised by Sri Hari and Srimathi HH Ji in a direct form. Then we will consider whether you will be allowed to post here. Otherwise, why don't you leave with grace? Before I throw you out?

Regards,
KRS

 

[pannvalan]

Dear KRS,

Please show some mercy and patience. One humble suggestion. Let us not expel anyone against his wish, especially after he has tendered apologies. Why don't you close this thread, for the time being?

 

[pannvalan]

I request Happy Hindu also not to be so persistent. Why do you demand an answer from him? If he concurs with our views alright. Otherwise also, we are not going to change our views on the question you have raised. Please leave the matter there and let it be laid to rest.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri pannvalan Ji Sir,

I like this person. But unfortunately, he is not what he proclaims to be. He detests our culture as evidenced by his admiration of Sri Kancha Illaiah's book 'Why I am not a Hindu?'. Have you read this book? If you have not, please read it.

But he blatantly violated our expectations to answer sincere questions from our members, on humanistic base.

He is a Christian, who does not want to admit being one here (please go to 'www.greathindu.com' to understand where he is coming from) and he is trying to influence us from outside on the basis where he thinks that our religion has major warts.

Please correspond with me in private - I will tell you more.

Regards,
KRS

 

[RVR]

I think Mr.Sapr should leave this forum. When I raised the question whether he can go to a church and say that JC is not God, he didn't answer. Same way let him not come here and talk anything against our community. Let him go to the appropriate forums and preach Kancha Illiah's message.

 

[hariharan1972]

i am amazed by the patience shown by KRS Sir.

not even an imbecile would try to justify abuse the way sapr has done. 'abuse' has a context it seems !!!

whoa !

if not for the high decorum of this forum, i would have taken sapr to task. i have shown restraint only because i dont wish to put the moderators whom i hold in high esteem in any kind of predicament.

sapr is an insult to all the honest, well-meaning christians all over the world.

btw, i would only warn that this is not going to be the end. sapr is indoctrinated. so you request him to go out or block him, he will be back again with a different name.

the indoctrination of missionaries is so strong that he will be back again and again, till possibly one of the members here would agree to convert.

and in any case, i dont know of any pest that goes away on request !!!!!

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

As I have proclaimed before: You are more of any Brahmin I know. You seem to know the truth than any of us who proclaim that we are born as brahmins. God bless.

Regards,
KRS

Sapr,

This is a hindu centric forum, and a brahmin-centric one, designed to uphold traditions and benefit the brahmin community.

As regards my position, am clear that am not a brahmin (my guru does not consider himself as having attained complete understanding of 'brahman' as yet, and considers himself a brahmachari but not a brahmin as yet, though born in a family of priests; and for a beginner like me i do not dare call myself anywhere close to a brahmin. i accept all definitions of a brahmin as defined by various schools, but personally i have been tending to follow monastic vedantin yoga schools).

What i am is that i am a lover of brahmanical cultures (i also love other cultures so i tend to pick and choose, and that part is my own shortcoming). And i wish well for the brahmin as well as all of the hindu community.

All in all: i am very clear that no-matter-what, i support my hindu brethern.

This does not mean blind support. If there is fraud happening in hinduism, i will accept it and try to find ways to mitigate it.

I do think the question i posed to you was in line with the forum's mission. It does concern hindus. It does not matter if your view is opposite or not.

Am not interested in beating around the bush trying to define abuse according to individual yardsticks. Therefore i wud not really appreciate a long (or longwinded) thot on your definition of abuse.

Sure you can touch upon abuse (in brief), but what i wud expect is a direct answer on whether or not the vandalism and abuse of gods and goddesses by missionaries is an ethical thing to do.

 

[sapr333]

When I raised the question whether he can go to a church and say that JC is not God, he didn't answer. Same way let him not come here and talk anything against our community. Let him go to the appropriate forums and preach Kancha Illiah's message.

Shri.Venkataramani, Intentionally,I didnt answer that question earlier, I found no relevancy in it. Since you asked again, my answer is this..

First of all, Im not a owner of any church/mosque/temple.If I own one, sure I would welcome you to share your views and also would request you to listen to the counter views. Exchange of ideas and evaluating them is the way, the modern world is moving through. I absolutely attach NO sentiments with it..

EVR didnot ask such questions,whether one would permit him inside a place of worship or not?.. He forced and tresspassed , and set a revolutionay example, which has now become an accepted norm.. Similarly, if you have such a good conviction about your question, you should do it.

Knock every church and preach to prove to the Christians 'That JC is not a true God' and convince them.. Is'nt it a good idea to stop conversions of Christians and moslems?

Some of the books I always read with interest are, Kancha Ilaiah,Davinci code, Satanic Verses... Also, I did not fail to buy those books which published counterviews also..

But in my personal view, if you feel and fully convinced that JC is not God, you should go all out to prove your point. Why just in a church, you should even knock the doors of Vatican and try to prove your point. Absolutely, there is nothing wrong in it, and Im saying this in true spirits.

There are many a variety of religious people, who used to teach me with their subjects.. Some talk with convincing mode..Some talk with abusive mode.. some with offensive mode.. But I dont shut my doors or ears.. Rather, offer them a cup of coffee, understand what he has to say, any thing better than what I have, and if its good, I quickly pick them up, as a learning.. Thats my perspective, which may not go well with many of us..

 

[happyhindu]

Sorry Sri Venkataramani ji for intruding on a post meant for you, cudn't help jotting this to a guy who (i better not say anything personal).

Sapr,

EVR didnot ask such questions,whether one would permit him inside a place of worship or not?.. He forced and tresspassed , and set a revolutionay example, which has now become an accepted norm.. Similarly, if you have such a good conviction about your question, you should do it.

Don't ask ppl from the decent world people to garland pics of Jesus with slippers or indulge in physical violence to set a so-called revolutionary example. Am amazed you considered EVR an example wrt the church (what you consider as 'norms' is ridiculous).

Knock every church and preach to prove to the Christians 'That JC is not a true God' and convince them.. Is'nt it a good idea to stop conversions of Christians and moslems?

Nobody is interested in stopping conversions. Its fraud that we are bothered about. Its ridiculous the way you pass on old wine in a new bottle as though you did not understand what was being told to you so far.

Why shd a hindu try to prove ridiculous things as 'true god' and 'false god' - its a christian missionary obession to do that - to even stoop to the extent of labelling and using depraved stuff like rape and prostitution to propagate their "faith"; while shamelessly abusing others' religious sentiments and behaving like crass cads.

Some of the books I always read with interest are, Kancha Ilaiah,Davinci code, Satanic Verses... Also, I did not fail to buy those books which published counterviews also..

But in my personal view, if you feel and fully convinced that JC is not God, you should go all out to prove your point. Why just in a church, you should even knock the doors of Vatican and try to prove your point. Absolutely, there is nothing wrong in it, and Im saying this in true spirits.

There are many a variety of religious people, who used to teach me with their subjects.. Some talk with convincing mode..Some talk with abusive mode.. some with offensive mode.. But I dont shut my doors or ears.. Rather, offer them a cup of coffee, understand what he has to say, any thing better than what I have, and if its good, I quickly pick them up, as a learning.. Thats my perspective, which may not go well with many of us..

don't expect me to try to believe that...if that's the case why do you seem to run away from certain direct questions...i will not repeat it anymore nor will i converse with you until you address it (not with a long winded lecture on what you think is abuse).

 

[silverfox]

EVR is not Tamil and not a good humanbeing!

Mr. sapr333:
I should have known when you kept referring to EVR as your role model. After all, he was the guy who did procession of all our Hindu Gods with chappals around them, and thrashed the idols of Pillayar and other statues on the streets. He also terrorized the poor and hapless brahmins by cutting their sacred threads, harassed the women and God knows what else. The fact that EVR is not even a Tamilian can be verified in Tamilnation.org.
link: http://www.tamilnation.org/books/Politics/venkatesan.htm
Since EV Ramasamy Naicker suits your ideas of ridiculing Hinduism, naturally you have him as your idol!!
Read this book by a Dalit, Mr. Venkatesan, who exposes the hypocracy and deceit of EVR.
E V Ramasamy Naickarin Marupakkam(The other side of E V Ramasamy Naickar)
M Venkatesan, 2004
Available at: 3, V R Pillai Theru, Hanumanthapuram,
Thiruvallikkeni, Chennai – 600 005.

You continue to dodge direct questions by our members; I honestly don't know why you are hanging around in our forum. Clearly, you are NOT contributing to the welfare or for the benefit of Tamil Brahmin community, for whom this forum has been established.
I think your efforts are better utilized somewhere else.
adieu!

 

[sapr333]

Mr. sapr333:
I should have known when you kept referring to EVR as your role model. After all, he was the guy who did procession of all our Hindu Gods with chappals around them, and thrashed the idols of Pillayar and other statues on the streets. He also terrorized the poor and hapless brahmins by cutting their sacred threads, harassed the women and God knows what else.

Shri.Silverfox,

I always keep my views balanced,as per my own conscience and try do a fairplay in line with the worldview.. I do appreciate EVR for his social revolution, but definitely not his other sides.. Matter of fact, I have my poles apart views against EVR, when it comes to 'Concept of God',Child marriage where I differ him totally..

Having said that, your post gave me an opportunity to explain my long pending answers on 'Abuse'

This act of EVR is a sheer abuse, which I dont hesitate to condemn.. Vandalizing any religious Idols (be it portuguese/EVR/Moguls), or hurting a Brahmin or any human physically is definitely an 'Abuse', though I read his views with admiration.. Inspite, I have no hesitation in condemning EVR on this.. If you happen to read my 'Travelogue thread' in this forum, on Sanchi stupa, you know, the dept of the message I convey here..

I agree with the fact that EVR is not a tamilian is an interesting point.. Though I have revealed my Tamil identity , but not rest (coup de théâtre), still, am I not a contributer by 50% to this thread specifications and norms? ie, 50% tamil and 50% Brahmin ie, www . tamil---brahmin.com !! Just curious.. my request is, focus on my views, but not on me.. Thank you.

PS: Off late we admire Bharathiyar.. but, many of us may not know, that only 14 people attended his funeral, and none of them were his folks

 

[anandb]

Well said HHji and Silverfoxji. We Hindus need to be aware of the real nature of certain missionary Christian and Islamic elements. Just look at the Mission Statements of the Vatican below

Mission statement Ad Gentes from the Second Vatican Council

“The pilgrim Church is missionary by her very nature, since it is from the mission of the Son and the mission of the Holy Spirit that she draws her origin, in accordance with the decree of God the Father”


‘Challenges Today to Mission “Ad Gentes” – Meeting of the Superiors General of Societies of Apostolic Life, Maryknoll, NY, USA, 1st May, 2000’.

“Then, when He had by His death and His resurrection completed once for all in Himself the mysteries of our salvation and the renewal of all things, the Lord, having now received all power in heaven and on earth (cf. Matt. 28 18), before He was taken up into heaven (cf. Acts 1:11), founded His Church as the sacrament of salvation and sent His Apostles into all the world just as He Himself had been sent by His Father (cf. John 20:21), commanding them: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Matt. 28:19 ff.). "Go into the whole world, preach the Gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he who does not believe, shall be condemned" Mark 16:15ff.).” (Ad Gentes, Second Vatican Council).

Looking at the above to a lay Hindu like me, the purpose of conversion is very clear. It does not have any lofty ideals of uplifting from poverty or ignorance. It is just a tool to increase the Christian and Muslim populations. The Quran is supposed to have similar passages which says the non-believers of Allah are infidels and burn in hell and it is the duty of every Muslim to convert. With a whole bunch of idiots taking these to heart, one can imagine the mayhem it can create. In the same vein, we should also condemn the extremist elements in Hinduism as there is no place for violence in our religion. But following the adage "தன்னை கொல்ல வந்த பசுவையும் கொல்லலாம்", we may not be the propagators of violence but if it calls for a fight against the adharma we should not shy away from it.

 

[sapr333]

Shri.Anandb,

You gave a good narration. But what could be your action plan to stop the Vatican agenda on conversion.. This is an important step, in this forum, where most of them are only blaming others, but now working out a counter strategy..Lets talk constructively here..

Just curious..

 

[RVR]

Shri.Venkataramani, Intentionally,I didnt answer that question earlier, I found no relevancy in it. Since you asked again, my answer is this..

First of all, Im not a owner of any church/mosque/temple.If I own one, sure I would welcome you to share your views and also would request you to listen to the counter views. Exchange of ideas and evaluating them is the way, the modern world is moving through. I absolutely attach NO sentiments with it..

Are you owner of this website? If not, you should have followed the same principle which you are preaching me. If the owners of this site don't want me, I would like to get out immediately.

EVR didnot ask such questions,whether one would permit him inside a place of worship or not?.. He forced and tresspassed , and set a revolutionay example, which has now become an accepted norm.. Similarly, if you have such a good conviction about your question, you should do it.

Whatever EVR preached, he preached it in his forums and never enterered into a place of worship and propagated his philosophies.
Did he tresspassed into a place of worship and preached his thoughts?

Knock every church and preach to prove to the Christians 'That JC is not a true God' and convince them.. Is'nt it a good idea to stop conversions of Christians and moslems?

I don't have to convince any body on anything. I am not trying to stop any conversions either. I know very well that any amount of money spent will not win hearts. Even Pope doesn't know the answer why only about 2% of the Indians have reposed faith in JC inspite of more than 200 years of Christian rule and enormous money spent through missioneries.

Some of the books I always read with interest are, Kancha Ilaiah,Davinci code, Satanic Verses... Also, I did not fail to buy those books which published counterviews also..

I have also read lot of books written by rationalists. Counter view is part of Hinduism from time immemorial. I don't have to learn from you about all this.

But in my personal view, if you feel and fully convinced that JC is not God, you should go all out to prove your point. Why just in a church, you should even knock the doors of Vatican and try to prove your point. Absolutely, there is nothing wrong in it, and Im saying this in true spirits.

You are only encroaching in to our territory and trying to convince us. I am not trying to convince anybody on anything. Then why should I knock anybody's door?

There are many a variety of religious people, who used to teach me with their subjects.. Some talk with convincing mode..Some talk with abusive mode.. some with offensive mode.. But I dont shut my doors or ears.. Rather, offer them a cup of coffee, understand what he has to say, any thing better than what I have, and if its good, I quickly pick them up, as a learning.. Thats my perspective, which may not go well with many of us..

I have lot of friends who follow other faiths and also non believers. We use to discuss on several things of common interest which will contribute to the society at large. At the same time, we avoid arguing on non-productive things. We never indulge in convincing the other. That is my way of working.

 

[KRS]

Folks,

I do not want to keep this going, but given all different sentiments expressed here, I thought it is important to clarify certain things:

1. First and foremost I want our members to support the decisions made by the moderators. We do not react without reason and in general, the member does not see what is happening behind the scenes. For example, if we delete certain postings they do not see that. So when Sri pannvalan Ji says 'please show some mercy', it implies that how we act is somehow heartless. And when Srimathi HH Ji is admonished for her persistence, I am sure Sri pannvalan Ji has not fully understood the history of dialog with Sri sapr333 in the past in other threads. I can only assure you all that the moderators are more than fair and we will continue to be so.

2. As I said before, if you go to sites catering to particular communities (like X-ian and Muslim) and if you try to do what Sri sapr333 is trying to do here, then he would have been booted out long time ago. What he fails to understand and appreciate is that we are allowing him to post here, knowing who he is. We believe in free speech that is civilized. We do not want to muzzle anyone's voice, within the bounds of civility.

3. Now to Sri sapr333 and what is the issue. He tells Sri Silverfox Ji to judge him on what he posts not on who we think he is. Yes, sir, the problem is your postings. You answer selectively and you have a biased view on religions. Especially against Hinduism and Islam. You are so intellectually dishonest. You say 'I always keep my views balanced,as per my own conscience and try do a fairplay in line with the worldview.. ' I can categorically say that this is absolutely false. And you are not considerate to other members. You refuse to answer proper questions and respond with obfuscation.

4. So Kancha Illiah is your hero. And one of his heroes was Periyar. Both preach hate and want to destroy Hinduism. And a person who professes fairplay would not admire these pseudo intellectual hate mongers.

5. I sent you a warning yesterday. And believe me, if there is another mis step on your part, you will be out.

6. Folks, again I warn you. Engaging in any meaningful (to you) discussions with this person, please count on him to distract, weave and bob and more importantly not responding once he finds himself in a corner. Please do not waste your precious time.


Regards,
KRS

 

[RVR]

Thanks sri KRS ji. Thanks for your advice.There is no point in arguing or engaging this person. He should have the basic courtesy not to enter our forum.

 

[anandb]

Dear KRSji,

agree with you. As you said, we are not aware of what is going on behind. I thought of replying to Mr. Sapr but after seeing your mail have decided there is no point. What surprises me is even after some members are literally showing him the way out, he still decides to hang around and keep posting. If this is not thick skinned then what else is? I think you should forcibly evict him out. Hinduism has long played into the hands of other religions due to our "Aditi Devo Bhava" policy. High time we also rise and kick some ....

 

[vikrama]

ஆயிரம் உண்டிங்கு சாதி, எனில்
அன்னியர் வந்து புகல் என்ன நீதி?

சுற்றி நில்லாதே போ, பகையே
துள்ளி வருகுது வேல்!

 

[hariharan1972]

The Obfuscator

Obstructing the path of truth
Methods and manners all uncouth
He, who cannot stand the test
Is the one who is an obscurantist

Purpose of dialogue is to reason
Denying this is to commit treason
He is ever willing and ready to rush
To obscure and beat around the bush

He is a shame for the humanity
Has neither value nor any sanity
Long Litany doesn’t win any respect
Will he, the obfuscator ever introspect ?

 

[[email protected]]

To Sri vikramaji , Best way of your reply. Here i wantd tell recently I have Visited to Karur 8th Aug, I was surprised to notice that now chiristin ladys dressed in white and their Badge says Santhi Ohm with Rakies in a plate and Small books Title JC and Brother hood. They started tieing every men and said JC is only GOD he is going to come again so on. Now a days their mission to reach their goal is very high and they never lisiton to any thing becaus they are all Brainwasheed. S.R.K.

 

[GopalaswamyShridharan]

re

esarkey,

our hindu religion has withstood the onslaught of many marauders in the past,present and will face in future too.Its incorrect to think,that Christanity is flourishing in other parts of the world or for that matter islam.Namesake people are christians or islamic,but do not follow scriptural procedures at all.

If Indians do not understand their own sampradaya schools of vedanta,why to blame christians or islamic people.?

I am 100% sure,hindus will face any amount of hardship,and will prevail over nefarious designs as championed by christians or islamic people.sathyameva jayathe,om shanthi.

gopal.

 

[silverfox]

Great poem, Hari!

Fantastic! Poet Hari! or is it 'pulavar Hari'?
Good one, Hari, as always.

The Obfuscator

Obstructing the path of truth
Methods and manners all uncouth
He, who cannot stand the test
Is the one who is an obscurantist

Purpose of dialogue is to reason
Denying this is to commit treason
He is ever willing and ready to rush
To obscure and beat around the bush

He is a shame for the humanity
Has neither value nor any sanity
Long Litany doesn’t win any respect
Will he, the obfuscator ever introspect ?