Reason for Conversion to Islam/Christianity ?

[sapr333]

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I've always been advocating this view, and Im not sure If im wrong.. If some one is staking a high claim about his faith/family/country, you,me and every human being in this world has right to reject that claim. Instead,expecting someone not to stake such claims is curtailing of one's individual's right. And above all, getting sensitive with that and calling him as a prone abuser, may not carry a worldview, esp, in this 21st century.
　
Its naive to expect, that, all questions can be done with just binary answers,a sheer Yes/No. For eg, if some one asks me "Have you stopped beating your wife? and expects me with a straight Yes/No, how I can respond, with the fact that, I have never beaten my wife, in my life.

If such a stand has given a false impression, that one has fled the scene to evade answers, and further attested by Mod', so be it.. Anyways, this is not a critic towards Moderator, cos, In my school of thought and ethics, I would never question/comment on moderation, rather, would accept it blindly, and move forward merrily .Having said that, I sincerely thank Shri.Hari for deleting that 'Personal Remark' Today at 08:06 AM. In every such situations,there are lessons to be learned, and they only mould us and groom up further

Not sure if bluntly profiling someone is a good sign, but it may dangerously influence fellow posters to take biased views and suicidal arguments. ie,,without paying attention to the posts,but focus on the poster, and may even go against the mission of the forum.

For eg, in post #91, Shri.Hari said, "we are well informed about robert caldwell and his sinister attempts" . At the outset, one may feel that, this statement may fall in line with the mission.

Contrarily, have a look at what Shri.Nacchinarkiniyan says, in his, one of my frequently read articles , Countering Anti-Brahminism Part III, about the same Robert Cladwell
　
""We have to digress here to learn about the most important development which changed the history of South India, Tamil Nadu in particular. I am talking about the works of the renowned scholar Rev. Robert Caldwell. His book "Comparative Grammar of Dravidian Languages" published in 1856 proved to the entire world the antiquity and unique nature of Tamil language. As Tamilians we are forever indebted to him"".

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/articles-guides/1745-countering-anti-brahminism-iii.html

Anyways, peace & love is what all the mankind wants, not just winning arguments.This is what, Gandhiji, the emperor without clothes, prompted so, like an AWACS early warning system. I think its high time, better I stay away from this thread, before the coming of next cyclone. .

I conclude this way....Many a people are afraid of heights. Not me,but, I'm afraid of widths. Thanks indeed.

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

Reality Bites… Truth hurts… And all that leads to pain, if not taken in right spirit. A catch-22 situation.

Before that, accept my sincere apologies for the delayed response.


Most of the times, I was nitpicking philosophies and faiths in order to try a new perspective, and the journey always ended up like Columbus, with a nose cut. I thought, in my weeklong absence, some interesting points would be discussed in this thread,in line with the mission, but then truly, not a single post talked about 'Stopping Conversions’.

Nobody wants to stop conversions, the concern is about the abuse of hindu scriptures (by saying so and so exists in the scriptures when it is not there), abuse of gods and goddesses, money inducements and fradulent activity involved in conversions.

And, off late I realized, I was trying them in a wrong place. Anyways, my intentions were not wrong, cos, I know, tomorrows world gonna speak my language, and every one should be prepared for this, while discussing about conversion.

Minutes ago,I hit upon this interesting lines of 'Dinesh D'souza' which says,' The Christian conversions grew up 200% in the last 200 years, a sudden explosion, which was so high than compared to any Inquisition/Conquests etc.. The reason attributed to that is, the availability of communication systems like Printing press, Microphone,TV and now Internet. Evangelists knock the door for conversion, where as Catholics convert the entire village or district like Kandhamal. I’m not sure if someone has figured out their strategy, of building a ‘community life’ than ‘way of life’. No one discussed a counter strategy.

If anyone gives a man a few thousand rupees in india, he is ready to do anything, for the hunger of poverty is such. Tehrefore, conversions will keep happening. Won't be surprised if india goes the way the west has - in becoming disillisuioned with christianity, trying to find better / depth of meaning to life and moving (back) towards native hindu (or so-called pagan) way of life. Already some europeans are debaptizing, and/or prefer to follow their old native pagan life over christ and church attendence.

Someone was worried, that some one is hurting Hinduism by abusive talks.. Here I say, I don’t know, how to tolerate or accommodate Truth and Untruth. Can Galileo’s mathematical proof tolerate Ptolemy? S.O.S, Pls help me!!

Talks are abusive when an accusation is made without basis. Provide relevant proof, and nobody will call it abusive.

Can we drain the inks of Dan Brown/Salman Rushdie/Jyllands-Posten's Flemming Rose?..I won’t ball over to say, 'The author of New Life church's Satyadharshini-mangalore tract is a Hyderabadi Brahmin convert. The message here is, we all, bogged up in secularism, are finally on our way to a slippery slope where no-one can tell how the self-censorship will end. Not alone missionaries, tomorrow when our children, grew up, with free access to Print/TV/Internet would definitely ask back, Dad!, is Mary a surrogate mother? Was J.C in love with Magdalene? How can gods indulge in rape and violence?. How come a person who broke all the Ten Commandments all through his life, can be a Prophet to claim divine revelations. Not sure, the modern day mothers and grannies are equipped to convincingly answer them with reasoning, other than hushing them in the name of ‘faith’!! Do you call these questions as intolerant and abusive in nature?

As children we have already asked some such question, and as adults many more. Intolerance is different, abuse is different. Abuse is when an allegation is made with no basis - such as that of a goddess being called a pros****te with no supporting basis from any hindu scripture, just to fool people, to be able to declare that all are false gods and only jesus is the true god. Abuse is when people claim or allege things with no proof - it could be also be called a blatant lie and conversion by fraud.


The issue here is, the motive.. If such act’s motive is just to abuse/hurt some community/faith, then, sure one needs to condemn it. I feel the objective here is , change of faith than abusing a faith Can’t believe, a book review on Kancha Ilaiah, was perceived as someone coming to forum with an offensive material!!! Intolerant towards opposite views!! I bought both Kancha/Satanic Verses/Dan Brown’s book with much curiosity, but not shunned them with anger. If one wants to stop conversion, he should first learn about the other side. One may be surprised; all the 18th century Jesuit missionaries studied Vedas and Upanishads before venturing in to conversion.

Missionaries read part of the hindu scriptures and realized they cannot 'convert' without 'inculturation' (which basically is just plain copying, in exam it wud be called 'cheating'). Between islam and christinity, methinks islam has a lot more substance, atleast muslims do not remain stuck on stuff as limited as sin and immaculate conception. The whole idea of baptizement as means to salvation is phoney to me as well.

And who are you or me to decide an objective such as change of faith? Why shd you listen to me and why shd i listen to you; rather i'd say - you to your faith and me to mine. Am not interested in converting you, and expect that you leave my faith to me as well.

If christ is your ishtadevata, so be it, if krishna is mine, so be it. Am not trying to brainwash you, fool you, impose on you or expect you to listen to me about my stance of how i feel about my faith. But dunno what makes a christian feel obligated about having to somehow change or 'convert' the other.

Then comes the issue, aliens are not eligible to be a critic. Indian doesn’t want an outsider called America to intervene in Kashmir. But we rejoice, when America warns/bombs or put economic sanctions on Pakistan. We enjoy American policing of Pakistan.. Arent we Hippocratic!!. Buddha/Luther criticized their religions even after exiting them, but the parent religions, though made them outcaste, but corrected themselves soon after, and made revolutionary changes.Opinions and perceptions of any one would change as times goes by. Conversions also happen like that in passage of time,and may be, someday, all of India could be of Buddhism. Judging some one as Spaniard is yet another eg, but the objective is definitely not to seek an apology, rather to highlight the mode of change in perceptions. However, I do appreciate that good gesture in HH being open hearted and transparent.

Someone said, ‘You don’t know about Hinduism, you know nothing about Vedas or dwaitha/Advaitha’ Hey!You admitted openly your lack of knowledge about Hindu philosophy et al.. Hmm!! That’s the sheer attitude (weakness) of every average Indian, ‘You know nothing’. And, surprisingly he is the one who is highly worried about Conversions. But, try whispering ‘I don’t know about Christianity’ to a Christian, for sure he would get delighted talk/teach about J.C on an on an on with joy. Once, I also viewed Bobby Jindal’s conversion to Catholicism as a ‘materialistic’ one, for political gains, until I read his article few weeks ago. He also pondered the same question, Can god’s be violent?, and it seems no one tried to answer his question. To the max, someone would have asked to meet a guru. In reality, a proper logical response with reasoning would have prevented his conversion!!

Am sure Bobby Jindal did not seek any guru or answers for his questions before he converted. Not sure he actually does seek answers even now - probably if someone gave him answers he still wud not re-convert back to his old faith. Louisiana has a sizeable catholic population that can turn votes around, why jindal, it wud have made sense for anyone to convert, use his church to make inroads and garner support for himself for any cause or gain.

True an average hindu is not bothered about his scriptures, all he does is to pray everyday, celebrate festivals and just live the 'way of life'. However, that is no excuse for an outsider to convert him just because he knows little about his scriptures.

Once, I asked ‘What’s wrong with conversion? Tried a different approach here, but haven’t got answers, other than being honored as ‘Mr.Obfuscating. & transgressor. Yes, in common admission tests, we tick, what the examiner thinks as ‘right’. But, in the next phase of ‘Group discussion’, we analyze and critic a ‘topic’ in all angles, and make our own conclusions, but don’t toe the line of the examiners,’ some of the winning G.D’s concluded “In 1969 three monkeys landed on moon’. I’m not sure if, that’s apocryphal. While talking about finding a solution to stop conversion, one should also sport the shoes of the other person, and see how it feels? Sadly, there is no response for the wonderful post #88 by anandb!!

Again, why shoudl anyone want to stop conversions?

In a forum, it’s always fun, to have a temporary fire show and soon to patch up with human touch, and move forward with a learning’s got from the subtly messages, esp, shared by forum’s affectionate Norse goddess Elli Elli, the goddess of old age who defeated Thor in a wrestling match. And, now, Mister Andy Kaufman's gone wrestling Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah..

With a chuckle, I conclude....“Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa’… though I know, some one outhere, may be busy 'profiling' me with this Latin statement?

I have been hanging out on blogs as well, just as you have. Its easy to come across people of the same interests in common places. I recognized you the very time you entered this forum, not just because of your handlename but also because of the same kind of language you use - sometime back cudn't help chuckling thinking abt how far a fellow indian can go to become so western (christian) that he ends up denigrating his own faith by making crass comparisons, demeaning things like his own native (hindu) philosophies, etc. Anyways, that's beside the point.

You have chosen to comment about one part of what i said, and have very well used and repeated the idea of you being mistaken for a spaniard in quite a few posts. But apart from my apology note, i also wrote soemthing else - i repeat it in case you have convenietly sought to not answer it:

Do you think the abuse of hindu gods and goddess is an ethical thing to do? I ask you this because you are the one that seems keen on judging and evaluating everything. So please evaluate wht you think abt this.

before calling a goddess a pros***te or a god as a rap**t, i demand to know where in the hindu scriptures have such things been mentioned?

Have been speaking to monks, clarifying things, am told such things are not found in vedas, upanishads, etc (have also been trying to read as much as possible on my own, found nothing like it so far either). Can you provide the sanskrit scriptures or verses where such things have been mentioned?

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

I've always been advocating this view, and Im not sure If im wrong.. If some one is staking a high claim about his faith/family/country, you,me and every human being in this world has right to reject that claim. Instead,expecting someone not to stake such claims is curtailing of one's individual's right. And above all, getting sensitive with that and calling him as a prone abuser, may not carry a worldview, esp, in this 21st century.
　
Its naive to expect, that, all questions can be done with just binary answers,a sheer Yes/No. For eg, if some one asks me "Have you stopped beating your wife? and expects me with a straight Yes/No, how I can respond, with the fact that, I have never beaten my wife, in my life.

If such a stand has given a false impression, that one has fled the scene to evade answers, and further attested by Mod', so be it.. Anyways, this is not a critic towards Moderator, cos, In my school of thought and ethics, I would never question/comment on moderation, rather, would accept it blindly, and move forward merrily .Having said that, I sincerely thank Shri.Hari for deleting that 'Personal Remark' Today at 08:06 AM. In every such situations,there are lessons to be learned, and they only mould us and groom up further

You leave certains questions unanswered, but chose to respond selectively, that can make a person feel you are biased. Please see my post above. I asked you just one question in a previous post - do you think the abuse of gods and goddess by missionaries is an ethical thing to do - it went unanswered, have repeated it in my post above for your response.

Not sure if bluntly profiling someone is a good sign, but it may dangerously influence fellow posters to take biased views and suicidal arguments. ie,,without paying attention to the posts,but focus on the poster, and may even go against the mission of the forum.

forget anywhere else, on this very forum you have have made comments that makes it obvious that you are pro-missionary, pro-christian, a supporter of "kancha sir"...

For eg, in post #91, Shri.Hari said, "we are well informed about robert caldwell and his sinister attempts" . At the outset, one may feel that, this statement may fall in line with the mission.

Contrarily, have a look at what Shri.Nacchinarkiniyan says, in his, one of my frequently read articles , Countering Anti-Brahminism Part III, about the same Robert Cladwell
　
""We have to digress here to learn about the most important development which changed the history of South India, Tamil Nadu in particular. I am talking about the works of the renowned scholar Rev. Robert Caldwell. His book "Comparative Grammar of Dravidian Languages" published in 1856 proved to the entire world the antiquity and unique nature of Tamil language. As Tamilians we are forever indebted to him"".

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/articles-guides/1745-countering-anti-brahminism-iii.html

its typical of the "selective understanding" stance you so often seem to take. Robert Caldwell contributed to the understanding of tamil alright, but he also sowed the seeds of the aryan-dravidian divide, (its typical of a missionary to create the divide to enable the basis to rule). There can certainly be 2 sides to a man. No one is perfect.

Anyways, peace & love is what all the mankind wants, not just winning arguments.This is what, Gandhiji, the emperor without clothes, prompted so, like an AWACS early warning system. I think its high time, better I stay away from this thread, before the coming of next cyclone. .

?? but i thot your stance was of comparisons, how can there be peace and love where there are comparisons made with the intension of denigrating one thing and portraying another as 'good'.

I conclude this way....Many a people are afraid of heights. Not
me,but, I'm afraid of widths. Thanks indeed.

Sometimes the width can be more longer than the depth called 'height'.

 

[akura]

Greatness

Greatness of hinduism is its tolerance and belief that
you must reach the top at any cost.
The man he who reached the top shall see that all the routes are aiming towards one and the only goal of
reaching the top.
The tolerance of this great dharma is easily taken for
granted and the erosion has taken place. Here is the
great religion which has teachings of all the religions of
the world . So beautiful and so easy a path to liberation.
The great people of the west have accepted the east.
People who have not read their faiths properly abuse
hinduism . Hatred is not permitted. Love towards one thing
means not hatred towards others.
One adhisanakara comes and washes the dirt.
Here great people come and show us the way . This never
dies.

 

[kunjuppu]

i am somewhat dismayed, that my request to sapr, re to move along a different plane, and clear the air, was ignored.

in case he was thinking i was biased, i wish to point out to a dialogue between me and anandb, as an example, of going the extra step to clarify as well as disarm.

this is in the thread, 'are we hypocrites', and posts #44, #45.

anand had initially disagreed with just about everything i had said.

i reviewd his replies, and selectively answered, where we could find a common ground.

judging from the tone of anand's repartee, i suspect that the fathom between himself and me, when it comes to periyar or dravidian revolution, will take time to fathom, and perhaps bridge. so i left it at that.

it is ok to disagree. it is not ok to throw in the towel in the middle. if we wish to engage, we might as well learn how to disengage elegantly and with style.

do not avoid that extra effort, to explain one's stand in the context of this forum. and come to a closure.

i wish to say, that i look at sapr's viewpoints with great interest. if confronted in a similar situation, with my back against the wall, perhaps my reactions may not be dissimilar to that of his.

having said that, i would also like to reiterate, that this forum is a reverentially hindu brahmin household. not only, one just does not bring pork to a muslim or jewish household, but the visitor would be wise ensure that he does not smell of swinish odours.

this is not an inquisition. who, what sapr is, is of no consequence, but to him. many a thread, his contributions are top notch. for which, we owe our appreciation.

many a times, we question our background and values. i think, in this forum, the focus, is to reform and maybe provide some tools to the participants, to navigate this increasingly complex world where the lines between religion, ethics and knowledge are mired with situational politics.

others question, with a view to condemn. or perhaps destroy. maybe. there are forums that do actively promote those type of dialogues. hopefully not here. if at all anything, a certain group of us, have moved unrelentlessly, to expunge this place of the noises and voices of extremism of our kind. there is no place for such, who wish to denigrate another faith or way of life.

the world, i think, is large enough, for all faiths and philosophies. pick what you like. do not pick anything. ultimately nobody cares.

i have always felt, that some threads, by their very nature are divisive. it takes a great effort and skillset, to maneovre through the potential minefields, and come out, not only alive, but smelling like roses.

this thread is not meant to be here in this forum.

finally re sapr's anxiety re profiling: here is a .. a conversation that i overheard

'aren't you just disgusted with the prevailing ignorance and apathy to what is happening in the world?'
pat came the reply 'i don't know and i don't care'

thank you.

ps. let us move on...

 

[sapr333]

Shri.Kunjuppu, you have the mastered the art of 'Pinching the baby and rocking the cradle'. I'm winking with a chuckle!!.

Trust me, If I hold the keys to U.N, for sure I would not hesitate,even for a micro-second, in handing over to you, after Ban-Ki-Moon.

But, for sure, I would not take the risk of ordering Peter, to handover the keys of heaven to you.. Guess what! Given a chance, you would neither allow the souls to enter heaven nor to hell.. Rather, with your magic wand (pen) on hand, you would orchestrate the whole homo sapiens to dance your tunes in front of purgatory, and sedate them to abandon both the heaven & hell. At the moment, I’m one among those percussionists, who is caught up in the dilemma..

But when I read your points, insisting on being ‘a closer' than staging a walk out ,by throwing the towel in the middle, had developed a curiosity in me, with a bit of adrenaline getting pumped through veins. But then, I was also pondering myself, truly, how one could stop the swine odor emanating from him, while entering a Jewish house, after munching half a pound of bacon rind, for that day's breakfast!! May be,a shower with few buckets of, Eau de Toilette?

It’s indeed an art to steer clear such situations, esp, in forums. As you said rightly(cradle rocking), "it takes a great effort and skill set, to maneuver through the potential minefields, and come out, not only alive, but smelling like roses". But I know, it may take at least 2-3 decades for a ‘taurpauline filtered mAndu’ like me to acquire your kind of Waterman's skill set.

One can always say, I don’t know, I don’t care, and air his judicious views. But then, how sportively taken by others, matters a lot.. May be, I’m more cautious, in not getting my handle axed, something which I cant imagine of, cos I value every post as an Article-Time-Energy, not as a rejoinder.

But then, as said earlier, it’s always not so easy to seek a binary answer, with a straight Yes/No, without understanding the depth behind it..Still,if I may ask, should I continue in this particular thread? Just a crispy Yes/No is what Im looking for.

Your response would definitely get you an 'award'.. ie, The smallest post ever recorded in this forum (2/3 letters)..

 

[kunjuppu]

sapr,

like you, i too have great difficulty with binaries.

'yes' and 'no' are not for me. to me, all answers always begin with, 'it all depends'..

elsewhere, i have said, that i think, there are very few absolute truths or evils. only shades of grey, and the depth of the shade depends on your viewpoint. no absolutes.

this perhaps defines my approach to extremes. are not 'yes' and 'no' but two extremes?

i hope you understand why i am unable to accede to your request in such a way as to set a smallest post record. that is beyond me

the thread is still open, you are a member in good standing .. what more can i say?

thank you.

ps maybe it is as simple as tossing a coin and see what falls?

 

[KRS]

A definite aspect of modern times is the mastering of the sophistry of language where it is done with thousands of mirrors to offer thousands of soothing explanations while inflicting thousands of small razor blade cuts. (I am not referring to any of the posters here).

In such a world, words and logic are used to duck and weave ala Cassius Clay (aka Muhammed Ali) who once mastered the art of 'floating like a butterfly but stinging like a bee'. The motives behind such actions are hidden behind the 'floating'. Oh, yes, I am your friend, don't you see, because I am saying so! Yes, I am telling you I love you and you must believe me! Because that is what a 'world culture' is all about!

We love you so much, we want you to improve and so let us send an investigative panel to your country to see why we are being told that your minorities are persecuted? Of course the definition of treating guests was developed and codified in your books over millenia, but we, whose forefathers have been swinging from the trees not so long ago and we who in the name of exploration, exploited and brutally subjugated others mainly on the basis of this notions of heathens and infidels are now 'civilized'. See, we save the likes of the Bhamian statues, we pay for the upkeep of 'our' heritage sites around the globe and make you money at it as we encourage people from all over the world to visit as tourists! We sit around the 'rituals' with garlands around our necks, clapping at the dancing and the ceremonies, devoid of the faith that nurtured them over centuries, because they are meaningless now. We force you to do the same, understand there is no such thing as an indigenous culture aka 'eco system', and if it is, it belongs to ALL of us in the world, to peek and tweek, to make it stand on the principles of 'secularism' and world government, faith be damned. Not any faith, of course! We do not call our faith a faith, but rather the ideals of humanity itself, where there were exploiters and the exploited, but of course, because we who are the most rich today in the west support these ideals, we think that our religion is devoid of these exploits and is superior. How do we know this? Well, look at you - with your loin clothes, with concepts that we do not understand, you have been subjucated and humiliated.

If you were really a great culture and religion, why would you have allowed yourselves to be degraded such? If you speak so gloriously about your past golden times, why are you so poor? Look at those countries today that are rich - don't you see the correlation between Christianity and prosperity? Is not might, good?

But don't ask about all the murders, rapes, abortions at will and all the social ills that abound in our culture. Don't ask us about the reason why a person committing suicide in our culture almost always takes with him/her host of other people for companionship in the hell! It is a person's choice and individual freedom to do that, you see!

One should realize the non willingness of answering a simple question, with this as a back drop. Like always, a canard has been raised as though only a binary answer was demanded - the truth is the binary response was 'requested' after no answer was forthcoming. No one has said, 'don't give me an elaborate answer, just 'yes' or 'no''. Yet this is now advocated as the main reason why no answer was given Again. 'dance like a butterfly' while the truth dies.

A friend is defined as 'someone who would always tell you the truth, while safe guarding your interest'. It is blatantly violated while making, bizzarre statements, and yet the mindless bantering continues with talks of purgatory with the amount of word sophistry that compares the question 'did you or did you not see that person rape?' with the answer 'how can I reply when I have never raped?'.

All this while professing one is seeking the truth and nothing but the truth with a mind all open to receive and process truth if only logically explained!

All this then brings me to my concluding remark, known to everyone conversent with the western literature: 'BAH HUMBUG!'

Regards,
KRS

 

[pannvalan]

Fight with swords, not poisoned words;
Retaliate with a counter, never with a slander;
Shoot a matching reply, not a matching abuse;
Serve your ace, don't spit on the face;
End with a smile, nurture no guile.
This is my plea; choice is given to thee.

 

[pannvalan]

People convert to Christianity or Islam because of these reasons.

1. Social oppression or perceived oppression

Only dalits do this.

2. Enticement with power and pelf

Only BCs and MBCs do this.

3. Out of fear and feeling of insecurity

People felt threatened by the presence of other communities surrounding them.

4. By coercion or threat

In a volatile situation or in a remote place or when seeking some undue favours.

5. Out of marital compulsion.

Only Hindus are forced embrace Islam or Christianity, in most of the cases.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri pannvalan Ji,

A nice sonnet. To Whom is this addressed? If it is addressed to me, sorry with all due respect, this not about peace making. I hope you understood the context.

Actually if this applies to me your choice of words is, if I may say so, rather completely off base. And to be truthful, quite offensive. I am quite surprised as well as disappointed..

When one flies in to this Forum like a seagull once in a while and leave one's comments without understanding the context woven from all different threads in toto, the result is this type of a comment from a high perch.

Regards,
KRS

Fight with swords, not poisoned words;
Retaliate with a counter, never with a slander;
Shoot a matching reply, not a matching abuse;
Serve your ace, don't spit on the face;
End with a smile, nurture no guile.
This is my plea; choice is given to thee.

 

[shreeramachandran]

religious conversions

Dear all,

Abivadhanagal to all.

Conversion is borne out of ignorance about significance of religion. AAthma dons various physical bodies and appears as members of religions. There is nothing like one religion superior to other. Ignorance, lure of petty amount of money,
wrong illusion of the status in the society are the fundamentals of this conversion.

When pope mandates, the conversion runs at feverish pitch. Prayer must come from the depths of heart to the almighty. I have many christian friends, well mannered and respecting the other religions too. But they scorn off at such conversions as the acts of religious brokers who get commission for the statistics they create. But this does neither improve the social status nor their economic penury. In fact, they are treated with contempt for conversion for lure of money.

There was one DR.ARokyasamy, a christian luminary in Bangalore. Here the linguistics took the rebel. Kannadiga christians demanded that this tamil man be replaced by a kanndadiga. To propitiate such a demand, the HQ shifted him, although he was with pleasing graceful minded person.

If you dissect the problem of conversion, you will see persons totally illiterate, ignorant of the aftermath of conversion, religious brokers, false propagandists are behind this conversion.
Unless the individual personally thinks about the conversion about the illusory benefits he hopes to derive, it is not possible to stop. Who can prevent anyone who is trying to jump into religious death?

Hinduism is not without pot holes. The futile fight between saivism and vaishanvism is already standing bared although Siva and Mahavishnu are on codial terms only. There is a place called Mary's thope in Trichy where two centuries ago brahmins got converted into christianity( catholic sect). Their talk, customs still trace to brahminical orthodoxy and they have a close knit marital relations.

Changing religion, like changing dress does not change the fate of the individual. It does not absolve one's sins although confessions are said to unload the stress due to the conscience being hurt by the wrong actions of individual.

I heard that caste hindus object to the dead bodies of dalits through their streets. In fact, the person in the burian ground is a dalit to arrange creamations. After death, it is all lifelessness. Why all this by the caste hindus?

All right thinking people, rebel against compulsive acceptance of ideas. But when explained and made to understand, the inidividual accepts or rejects.
I know there are many evangelists who tell that blind see, deaf hear, handicapped get cured of handicap etc., which are not true. I happened to travel with a person, a retired government officer who has taken as evangelist. He said this.A rag to riches industrialist of tamilnadu, with money not t know what to do, changed from catholic to CSI. He got many catholics converted to CSI and paying each evangelist at the rate of Rs.1000 rupees perday besides halting, food and travel expenses t the highest rate for which no account is asked.
Asked about the truthfulness of his preachings to masses, he said " I am doing a service for the money I am paid. I know what I do is not true. Like karmaneva athharasthe Na baleshu kathachana" i never look back whether any one gets converted or not. It is note worthy, that catholics are not involved much on this conversion as I see.

see all in my next sandesam

shreeramachandran

 

[pannvalan]

Dear KRS,

My post targeted nobody in particular. I am at times appalled at the way the posts drifting from the main topic and turning into a one-to-one war of words, sometimes too harsh to other onlookers. My appeal to everyone is to show restraint. When I write I am careful because what is written will remain as such forever. And what I write shall not dilute the standards of the forum itself. If you still think that I preach all this, by occupying a high pedestal, I'm sorry. I am also aware of my mistakes and am not free from faults.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri pannvalan Ji,

Please do not say that your post was targeted to no one in particular! You use words like 'poisoned words', 'slander', 'matching abuse', 'spit on the face', 'nurture no guile' to represent how and what you read in the postings. Who is doing any one of these?

The postings may seem personal and harsh to you, because you have not read the all the threads where various discussions are going on. You come in once in a while, make a noise and leave what ever you want to leave.

Please in the future do not take on the role of a moderator here. If you feel something is harsh, either let the moderators know (there are 3 of us) or refrain from reading the thread and stay away. We have capable moderators here, who know how to moderate.

You say you are careful with your words! Are you? Can you then give me the examples for your various descriptions that you have said, that I have cited at the begining of this post? If you can do it, I will take your words without any hesitation.

Please do not hide behind indirectness, when you mean something. Call it for what it is. Don't say it is a 'general' posting addressed to no one!

Regards,
KRS

 

[pannvalan]

Dear KRS,

I still repeat that my my post was not directed at one person in particular. But at the same time, only after going through the earlier posts in this thread, I chose to write what I wrote. In several posts harsh words or offensive phrases have been found. (I know they are not against me)

I never wish to assume the role of a moderator and dislike doing so. As a fellow member of the forum, I just wanted to share some of my views. If my words are also felt too sharp and painful, I will mellow them down and replace them with new set of words conveying similar sense and concern in future, in a similar context or situation.

I want to avoid quoting from some of the previous posts, as it will only precipitate matters further.

Regarding my coming and going, my job involves a lot of travel. Hence I chip in only when I find time. That doesn't mean I have not followed the course of the other posts under a particular thread. I read them all.

Finally, my appeal to you is let us not convert this into one to one conversation in which the rest may not show any interest.

Regarding my own post, you have quoted only the second part of each line which I wanted everyone to avoid.

I stop here now.

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

Am still waiting for an answer on this:

Do you think the abuse of hindu gods and goddess is an ethical thing to do? I ask you this because you are the one that seems keen on judging and evaluating everything. So please evaluate wht you think abt this.

before calling a goddess a pros***te or a god as a rap**t, i demand to know where in the hindu scriptures have such things been mentioned?

Have been speaking to monks, clarifying things, am told such things are not found in vedas, upanishads, etc (have also been trying to read as much as possible on my own, found nothing like it so far either). Can you provide the sanskrit scriptures or verses where such things have been mentioned?

Have been wondering over a good many whys the past week. Had heard of incidents of caste slurs, bullying based on caste, superiority claims by one section, suppression claims by another section, and so on. Cud not find answers to quite a few questions including claims of ancientness of certain things and so on. Sure Sapr, the social side of what is (wrongly) considered hindusim is not without warts, agreed.

However, what has happened over the years is completely different. While the religion (hindusim) got (wrongly) blamed for social evils, it has also helped the designs of certain types of people who want to divide the peoples of a nation based on communal passions, identities, ethnicity, concocted 'history' and so on.

Today, there maybe a miniscule section of hindus that want to go back to the past (a past which perhaps did not exist as was portrayed perhaps). However, on the majority scale, it is muslims and christians (of the missionary kind, not the regular ones) who want the current caste system (which in all likelihood is less than 300 years old) to remain, so that it helps their propaganda activities. To do that, they can go to any lengths, even call a goddess a prostitute and a god a rapist.

Sure, some of our puranas were written all the way until even the 15th century and are not free of interpolations. Sure there are stories of extramarital and premarital consensual relationships mentioned in the puranas (all linked to the very extensive topic of birth and karma), but where is rape and prostitution? Which is why i ask, please provide me the sanskrit verses where such things are mentioned in the hindu scriptures?

Sapr, I have explained as best as i can. Am still expecting an answer from you:
Do you think the abuse of hindu gods and goddess by missionaries is an ethical thing to do?

Regards.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri pannvalan Ji,

I appreciate your reply. As moderators our roles are difficult - like you mentioned elsewhere too much moderation will drive off some folks. And too little will make for a food fight. So somewhere in between lies Nirvana.

I appreciate your explanation for long absences here. Believe me, I understand your situation when I used to be on the road and it took me quite a while to catch up.

My only motivation is to tell you that your sonnet implied that people are indulging in activities as personified by the right side of your sonnet and so naturally I got my dander up because we pride ourselves lately of good moderation.

As I have said, if you want to communicate anything about the tone the Forum is taking, please do not hesitate to call on all 3 of us (actually 4 as I left out Sri Praveen).

The one on ones are sometimes inevitable as points are getting clarified - and they are all part of healthy discussions. We need to let them take their course as they are not always bad.

Even as a Seagull, you are welcome!

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

Please don't hold your breath on this!

Regards,
KRS

 

[pannvalan]

Dear KRS,

I am happy to read your latest post and thank you for the same. Now only I realize that my controversial post has been immediately preceded by your post and it is quite natural for you to think mine was directed against you. I'm so sorry.

Let us continue our journey together as usual .

 

[sapr333]

Shri.KRS, I truly enjoyed your long well crafted post..I like the way you have presented it too and for sure I would not sarcastically call that as sophistry, rather, its one of your finest writings, to be kept on records.. After a long hesitation, I thought of posting this, with a caution, that Im not gonna touch the topic of the thread, until im convinced to do so.


>> 'did you or did you not see that person rape?' with the answer 'how can I reply when I have never raped?'.>>

This noon, while doing the window shopping in a mall, my eyes got glued to a cute girl's T-shirt, which said "If I agreed with you here, we'd both be wrong" .And that prompted me to write this, though I have decided not to touch the theme of this thread, unless my conscience warrants me to do so..

For eg, in that analogy, there could be a good possiblity,that, the witness may be a child who doesnt know what rape is..(OR) Witness may be even a married adult, who only knows that, rape as, forcible stripping of saree at gun point by a stranger. as per hollywood movies. According to him,drugging and indulging in the same in a friendly deceit manner, is not rape. The permutations and combinations in this kind are endless, and hence we cannot confine it with a single question followed by a singular answer.

Unlike school exams,where the Q&A is preset and your answer is expected only to be in line with the examinee, forum/group discussions cannot be concluded with a simple Yes/No, since these two things are 'Absolute Extremes', which we humans cannot fathom..If so, we miss a great god given opportunity called 'RECONCILLATION".

Say suppose, if I say NO to you, automatically one of us will be proved wrong, because the YES and NO cannot coexist for a single event. And the TRUE answer for that may be something else,which we both might be loosing sight of.. .. Rather, if I were to put it in a different way... working with these ABSOLUTES like 'Sheer Yes/No', we are only giving no-room for the key ingrediant for a healthy discussional ouputs ie, 'Reconcillation', and there by arresting the further discussion, and inturn we blid-fold ourselves,beyond looking any further.

If I could recollect one of the discussions I had with H.H in 'God Why' thread in the topic 'God as Philosopher'.. I also posed a simple binary question 'Can God be a philosopher?" Yes/No.. HH was quick to say, Yes.. But soon I found 3 NO's from participants, and I concluded safely/convincingly that I've won that argument by count. But frankly, that's not the way I wanted to conclude it, though I wanted to give a counter for the questioners intentional profiling attitude..I tied a trickery here, as taught by the elite business schools in the third semester. True to my heart,I know, I have not defeated the argument, only fact is, I checkmated and silenced someone, which is again wrong on my part..


You are perfectly right in saying, that, I was given an option to explain my stand in 'detailed way', but then someone called me as an 'Amercian Politician' and yet another commented, 'Why such a long passage of response, instead of a simple yes/no'. When the eagles are silent the parrots begin to jabber....A sarcasm to someone for being a Mute spectator to this..

How can one decide if something is abusive, without defining what 'abuse' is, and its relevancy, context and legality.

Saying goes, You can agree with me or be wrong. Interestingly, there is yet another reason, why I avoided Binary.. Mod, You know what, I liked you so much and so such I love you, that, I dont want to put you in the 'WRONG' side, in public,with the tricky binaries..



>>>But don't ask about all the murders, rapes, abortions at will and all the social ills that abound in our culture. Don't ask us about the reason why a person committing suicide in our culture almost always takes with him/her host of other people for companionship in the hell.>>

This is exactly what my granny admonishes my across atlantic visiting cousin sisters , with their knickers and revealing T's.. But those smart girls find no time to silence my granny by pin pointing my grandpa for his 'women oppression', though we take pride in her as a role model for 'Vow of Obedience'.. They find no time to show her that day's 'The Hindu' news paper about Dowry Deaths and divorce cases on un consented marriages, and even incidences within the family, and the our highest suicide rates in Kerala in par with Japan ...They prick granny, from the Female Infanticide clips coming in movies of SunTV. And above all, they make granny to surrender to their feet, by explaining our lack of 'Value For human life' , with the daily death toll counts in TV News..Thankfully, they didnt get a chance to talk about Corruption...

The point here is, its not the West or East.. Hindu or Moslem... We are all humans.. and we are bound to err.. We are erring humans..Only , the category of errors may be different.. But we all humans, sailing in the same boat... In the middle,at this senile age, my granny learned a great lesson .... "Value for human life & dignity"....

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri sapr333,

The 'Value for human life and dignity' starts with treating others around us with dignity. I am not very happy to say that you have not only treated the members of this Forum with no dignity, you have also went out of bounds required of a guest and showed contempt to your fellow members. Certain people here put in time and energy to post and asked you sincere direct questions, whose answers are simple enough to frame, yet you as the Vedalam in the Vikramaditya story climb back up your tree of obfuscation.

This is not a correct behaviour. I can atleast say, 'No sir, I don't want to engage in any more dialog with you, till you answer the questions posed to you'. Not because I don't want to or can not, but because if I do, I, along with you essentially mock the valued members in this Forum who labored. I will constantly remind our members not to engage in dialog with you, for the same reason. They know that at your will you would decide not to anwer them, wasting their labor.

Like Sri Silverfox Ji, I also ask: What do you want to accomplish in this Forum while you slap across our faces?

As you usually say, why don't you ponder this.......

For our Forum members:
Please understand the analogy that Sri sapr333 gave in his posting: Substitute 'brahmins' for his grandpa. Substitute 'untouchables' for his grandma. Substitute 'Christians/Missionaries/World Culture' for his westernized cousins. Now you get the picture.

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

If I could recollect one of the discussions I had with H.H in 'God Why' thread in the topic 'God as Philosopher'.. I also posed a simple binary question 'Can God be a philosopher?" Yes/No.. HH was quick to say, Yes.. But soon I found 3 NO's from participants, and I concluded safely/convincingly that I've won that argument by count. But frankly, that's not the way I wanted to conclude it, though I wanted to give a counter for the questioners intentional profiling attitude..I tied a trickery here, as taught by the elite business schools in the third semester. True to my heart,I know, I have not defeated the argument, only fact is, I checkmated and silenced someone, which is again wrong on my part..

Sapr,

(to me) it does not mater who or how many agree or do not agree, i remain firm that to me gurus (philosophers) are gods too, for 'god' is all and 'god' is in all, though tehre are ppl who do not 'look' either within or outside for a 'god' and are far too mired in what is considered 'evil'....

reg winning or losing, sapr, those who actually 'lose' are people who repeatedly shout the same thing without making sense because they have 'lost' it inside their own head, such people can fit the category of the insane. neither you nor me belong to that category. there is nothing really called winning and losing...

i wud greatly appreciate a response from you on whether or not you think the actions of missionaries in vandalizing hindu scriptures and abusing hindu gods and goddesses is an ethical thing to do. i have not even touched upon more fraud by missionaries like land-grabbing, am still waiting for your response on just that one question first.

 

[pannvalan]

Happy Hindu,

Regarding some christian evangelists and missionaries role, my opinion is -

1. No one has the right to offend the fine feelings, beliefs and faith of others.

2. In the words of Jesus Christ himself, you will be paid back in the same coin.

3. I wrote thus once:

Why do you find fault with the articles kept in my shop,
only to boost the sales in yours?

4. When a person is cornered by the opponent or others, he resorts to verbal or
physical violence. That shows his implicit acceptance of his defeat.

5. But, violence in any form only begets further violence, disharmony and social
unrest and leads to permanent divide between the opposite groups.

6. Only worrisome aspect is the wrongdoers do not admit their mistake or
misdemeanour, even after enough damages are done and they are further
encouraged and extended open support by the so called elites,
intellegentsia and the pseudo-secularists to repeat their behaviour, in the name of
freedom of expression.

7. Those who insult womanhood - human beings / divine beings in woman's attire-
can not be ever pardoned.

 

[sapr333]

I wrote>>>>This is exactly what my granny admonishes my across atlantic visiting cousin sisters , with their knickers and revealing T's.. But those smart girls find no time to silence my granny by pin pointing my grandpa for his 'women oppression', though we take pride in her as a role model for 'Vow of Obedience'.. They find no time to show her that day's 'The Hindu' news paper about Dowry Deaths and divorce cases on un consented marriages, and even incidences within the family, and the our highest suicide rates in Kerala in par with Japan ...They prick granny, from the Female Infanticide clips coming in movies of SunTV. And above all, they make granny to surrender to their feet, by explaining our lack of 'Value For human life' , with the daily death toll counts in TV News..Thankfully, they didnt get a chance to talk about Corruption.>>>

Shri.KRS responds>>>Please understand the analogy that Sri sapr333 gave in his posting: Substitute 'brahmins' for his grandpa. Substitute 'untouchables' for his grandma. Substitute 'Christians/Missionaries/World Culture' for his westernized cousins. Now you get the picture.

What a smart attempt to profile, in vain!!!.. If my post is infering such thing, then I can only be wrong, and I need to change my 'writing style'.

Btw, keeping in mind the 'Value for human life and dignity', and if I had hurt any forum members, I do not hesitate in tendering an apology.



Happy.Hindu]]] Dear HH, How much your question is a valid one, in line with the forum mission?... If so, and if I were to respond you with an 'entirely opposite view', how would my response be falling/useful to the forum's mission?. Please give me a conving answer to the second question, upon which I will make up my mind to respond to you. Btw, I liked your question, and I can share a long thought on this, in terms of defining,what Abuse is all about

Shri.Pannvalan>>>When a person is cornered by the opponent or others, he resorts to verbal or physical violence. That shows his implicit acceptance of his defeat.>>

If this post is directed to missionaries,then, thats not my cup of tea. But if its directed to me (hopefully not), then please browse through my entire 700+ posts, and quote me one single instance (with Post#), where I have resorted to personal abusing / personal attacks on our members?.

 

[pannvalan]

I hereby clarify that my comments referred above, were about all sorts of proselytizers, people like M.F. Hussain and Baroda University Vice Chancellor and the like.