Science and religion

[einsteinstutor]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

I would like to add as this thread is about Science and Religion.

Of late, we have started about Global Warming. It is about the rising of average
temperature of Earth's atmosphere and oceans and its projected movement. We
find world traditions are coming to a consensus that time is cyclical and we have
entered the last age i.e. Kaliyuga. At the end of Kaliyuga, it is interpreted that
water will envelope the entire earth. Now itself, we are finding, owing to Global
warning, ice on the mountains are melting on the faster rate. We read many things
in the media relating to science and religion. It is rather inter-twined and it will
be rather difficult to say science has no base in the religious histories.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

Those who have been following the US presidential elections would know that there is clear distinction between the conservatives and liberals when it comes to perception of Global Warming. The former slams it without any qualms. Atleast they believe, to be a Republican
1. They have to be a devout Christian
2. They should defy logic and sense to be one, if needed.

The practical implications of these perspectives will be evident and can potentially become a matter of grave concern for the nation if they come to power.

 

[prasad1]

I believe that you can accept others as they are and yet maintain your own identity. It is melting pot not uniformity.

In thuravadarai koote each vegetable adds its distinct nature, and not a mashed up vegetable soup. We with our distinct culture add to the society. Please do not try to loose your individuality in the name of assimilation.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

There may be any amount of advancement in the scientific and technological area
of development, it can not completely replace the Religion as such. May be some
people believe only in Science. The hills were barely visible through the mist. All
the stars are not visible to the naked eye. But the religious scriptures have a vision
and power of seeing the celestial bodies as astrology and astronomy form part of
our ancient Hindu scriptures. Science in the overall concept is termed as an organized
knowledge obtained through observation and experimental tests. What our religion
has said 1000 of years ago, some of the inventions or discoveries are through the
basic mathematical formula and theory that are found in our religious scriptures.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Ozone Ji,

I don't get the import of your post. Do you think, I am ranting the same stuff post after post?

Regards,
KRS

Isnt it (the quotes in bold) an easy guess as to why the author keeps ranting the same thing post after post?

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Religion and Science may have competition as to which is stronger and
which deserves more respect and recognition. I have seen some patients
getting cured from incurable diseases because of God's blessings and the
faith of the patients besides their nears and dears. Can any one say
that even a fraction of divine intervention is not there in the above examples.
Assuming the Science is so superior, why are we not able to cure all the
Cancer patients in the world, can the Science develop a method of stopping
the demise.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[renuka]

Religion and Science may have competition as to which is stronger and
which deserves more respect and recognition. I have seen some patients
getting cured from incurable diseases because of God's blessings and the
faith of the patients besides their nears and dears. Can any one say
that even a fraction of divine intervention is not there in the above examples.
Assuming the Science is so superior, why are we not able to cure all the
Cancer patients in the world, can the Science develop a method of stopping
the demise.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

Dear sir,

Both science and God do not interfere in our Karma..whatever cure we get from science or from God is destined in our Karma to be cured by either way.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Renukaji, I do not set aside the Karma theory. But then people talk high of scientific
developments in all the fields.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Dear Kunjs,

I always feel that Hinduism confers the most important Freedom in life and thats Freedom of Thought.

Even if Polyandry was legal..I would still want all my husbands to be Hindus!!!LOL

I always feel that Hinduism confers the most important Freedom in life and thats Freedom of Thought.

Can I join as a member in your club?

Even if Polyandry was legal..I would still want all my husbands to be Hindus

Polyandry was in vogue in India. Example - Draupadi in Mahabharata.

Considering that sex ratio in India is getting skewed, it would not be a surprise, if that model gets reintroduced.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Is this offer of excerpts from the book open only to Renuka. If not, I would like to have the same. I did see two of the TV shows on Discovery of Science and I found it very interesting.

Regards,

If you are in USA, you would not need it, because you can download the excerpts from Nova website. If yes, and you are not able to locate it, let me know. Outside of the USA, the site may not be accessible. Let me know either way.

 

[Nara]

....Some in this Forum have suggested in the past that the community should pay a price for all the past ills of the society, based on today's microscope. I do not agree with this view, as you all know.

....But all brahmins have to collectively apologise even though they are physically powerless to do any harm now or in the past. The demand is not only preposterous but absurdly foolish.

My dear brothers KRS and Sarang,

The refrain I often hear when talking about Varna/Brahminism among irate Brahmins is “we are not guilty for past wrongs” or “it is preposterous and absurdly foolish to demand Brahmins of today to collectively apologize”, or “Brahmins are powerless, it is the dominant non-Brahmin castes who perpetrate caste atrocities”, and many more such defensive missives.

These protestations do have a veneer of truth. Brahmins do not wield significant political power in Tamil Nadu any more. It is indeed absurd to hold the present day Brahmins collectively guilty for the past offenses and punish them. But, underneath this veneer there are some serious issues crying out for some critical reflection.

First, it is a straw-man fallacy to suggest that I am arguing for the Brahmin community to collectively rise up and accept guilt and apologize for it. That is an absurd suggestion.

My argument is only that those who identify themselves as Brahmins have an individual responsibility to think critically as to what that identity means. My argument is they have an individual responsibility to acknowledge the wrongs that were committed in the past on the basis of Varna/Jati. My argument is they have an individual responsibility to identify any vestiges of the past discriminatory and offensive practices within their own community and work diligently to eradicate them.

This is what I am arguing for. It is actually absurdly foolish to suggest that I am demanding the Brahmins of today to collectively apologize for past wrongdoings. How would that happen anyway? There is no central Brahminical authority to offer such an apology. Even if there was one, and they do offer such an apology, it would be scoffed at as hypocritical given the reverence with which Dharmashashthras are held by Brahminical Acharyas seen as gods in flesh and blood by all Brahmins.

Now, let me give an example of what I am arguing for. We all know about the unrest that took place in Paramakkudi last year. One Dalit youth was murdered and six Dalits died as a result of police firing. For a detailed accounting of what happened visit this link. This is a clear case of dominant Thevar caste ruthlessly suppressing Dalits. Brahmins cannot be held responsible for this atrocity, that much is clear. But what did they do about it?

A more interesting question is what can they about it? No Brahminical Matham can condemn such jAti based atrocity with a straight face as they themselves practice jAti based discrimination till this very day. To be able to credibly stand up against the crimes of Thevars against Dalits Brahmins must first repudiate Dharmashashthras and openly end religious support for Varna system. Those who think they are Brahmins surely have this responsibility.

That is just the start.

Then, they must actively work towards openness and equality within their own ranks, slowly building trust and respect from all fellow Tamils. Then, a day will surely come when the Brahmins can stand shoulder to shoulder with their Dalit brothers and fight bigotry and injustice as equals and not get laughed off.

This is what I am arguing for, not for today’s Brahmins to be held guilty for past crimes or to force some silly useless apology from them.

So, let me repeat, I am not arguing for Brahmins to stand up and accept guilt or offer up a collective apology. It is up to the individual Brahmins to stop offering up defensive arguments and try to live up to an universal standard of moral justice and compassion.

Cheers!

 

[zebra16]

If you are in USA, you would not need it, because you can download the excerpts from Nova website. If yes, and you are not able to locate it, let me know. Outside of the USA, the site may not be accessible. Let me know either way.

Thanks for the response. I am located in India.

Regards

 

[einsteinstutor]

But what did they do about it?

A more interesting question is what can they about it? No Brahminical Matham can condemn such jAti based atrocity with a straight face as they themselves practice jAti based discrimination till this very day. To be able to credibly stand up against the crimes of Thevars against Dalits Brahmins must first repudiate Dharmashashthras and openly end religious support for Varna system. Those who think they are Brahmins surely have this responsibility.

Given that Dharmasastras are derived from our vedas, it is only expected that brahmins do not forsake it that easily, for they believe to forsake it is to forsake religion and vedas.

But still I support your argument. As this was mostly the 'norm' of the society at some point in the history, there isn't any weight in arguing that it should still be the norm today. Our existence doesn't depend on following this norm. However I believe it is still the essence of a society. Division and discrimination is omnipresent. But one should not be the reason for the disadvantage of the other. There is discrimination against the illiterate and poor in every society, those lucky enough to be born in the most liberal of them succeeded through their own effort in rising to the top. It is sad that we, by not doing our part, are blocking the progress of a certain section of our society. That is how USA distinguished itself from England.

Now that we are discussing discrimination, I am wondering about the true nature of politics behind this. To some extend, both the so called lower classes and our ruling elite would want the things to stay the way they are. I think politicians will be keen to find more 'lower castes' so that they can be given reservation and in turn the 'lower castes' are not particularly enthusiastic about giving up their privileges in the current societies.

Darwin's theory also applies to society. One must be fit to survive in it. Meekness, ignorance and lack of aggressiveness are not essentially that makes a person successful today.

 

[suraju06]

Nara in post #35

Dear Nara,

This is again your ‘pain’ dogging you. You can not escape it as long as you post here your ‘views’ on that wonderful ‘manoranjitham’ brahminism/brahmins.

The refrain I often hear when talking about Varna/Brahminism among irate Brahmins is “we are not guilty for past wrongs” or “it is preposterous and absurdly foolish to demand Brahmins of today to collectively apologize”, or “Brahmins are powerless, it is the dominant non-Brahmin castes who perpetrate caste atrocities”, and many more such defensive missives.These protestations do have a veneer of truth. Brahmins do not wield significant political power in Tamil Nadu any more. It is indeed absurd to hold the present day Brahmins collectively guilty for the past offenses and punish them. But, underneath this veneer there are some serious issues crying out for some critical reflection.

Dear Mr. Nara, You have used the terms “irate brahmins”, “defensive missives”, “protestations” and finally “veneer of truth”. The problem is when one is so much opinionated and prejudiced about a matter, it becomes extremely difficult to get any thing across to him. But I do not give up that easily and so I am trying again. Before that I would say 1. brahmins are not irate. They are only sad, disturbed and disappointed that there is so much of ganging up against them (this has nothing to do with the so called ganging up that is causing a lot of heat in this forum). 2. They are not defensive about any thing. They are rather proud of what they have and what they stand for. Yes they try to explain when they are accused of this and that. But they are clear in their mind that they have not committed any crime and so have no need to be defensive about what they do. 3. What they make is not protestations. They are engagements in which they try to explain at a matured level their position. That mostly it is addressed to people who are not at that level and hence go waste is another matter. 4. Truth is always strong, vibrant and beautiful. It remains truth because of its own strength and because it does not require another agency to establish itself. So there can not be any veneer of truth. Either it is truth or it is not.

First, it is a straw-man fallacy to suggest that I am arguing for the Brahmin community to collectively rise up and accept guilt and apologize for it. That is an absurd suggestion.

When one reads your posts on this topic one gets only the impression that you are exhorting the brahmins. There is no attempt to shift the emphasis from what you actually said. I leave it at that. It is for the members who read your posts to decide.

My argument is only that those who identify themselves as Brahmins have an individual responsibility to think critically as to what that identity means. My argument is they have an individual responsibility to acknowledge the wrongs that were committed in the past on the basis of Varna/Jati. My argument is they have an individual responsibility to identify any vestiges of the past discriminatory and offensive practices within their own community and work diligently to eradicate them.This is what I am arguing for. It is actually absurdly foolish to suggest that I am demanding the Brahmins of today to collectively apologize for past wrongdoings. How would that happen anyway? There is no central Brahminical authority to offer such an apology. Even if there was one, and they do offer such an apology, it would be scoffed at as hypocritical given the reverence with which Dharmashashthras are held by Brahminical Acharyas seen as gods in flesh and blood by all Brahmins.

Your argument holds for you only because you have put all undesirable qualities, irrational beliefs, meaningless dogmas etc into one container and calls it brahmins or brahminism. For us the rest of brahmins it does not hold water. We do not have only undesirable qualities etc etc., satisfying your idea of brahmins or brahminism. We are people who have good qualities to a great extent and some bad qualities, beliefs which are rational of course along with some which are irrational (if I have to dispute the term irrational and rational I will have to go into epistemology and this post will become dreary and unreadable for many) and we are just as much dogmatic as other groups of people are in this world. We believe that every individual in Hindu fold have a responsibility to think critically and acknowledge the wrongs that were committed in the distant past in the name of casteism (not brahminism, though you would be immensely pleased if I use that inappropriate term in this context). How do we eradicate the vestiges of casteism? Shall we legislate that the term should never be used anywhere in the public discourse? Do you think it will be acceptable to the politicians who will have to do the lesgislation? In your overwhelming enthusiasm for revolution you are blind to some practical difficulties. Without caste there will be no work for many politicians in India today. They will all lose their jobs. Because Dharmashastras are written texts and because they have casteism written down you are able to identify them as easy targets for your attack. What about the mindset of the millions of Yadavs and Thakurs and Thevars which will never change. It will never change because it is a bond which holds them together strongly and helps them win their wars in their day to day lives. It is not as if we have a magic wand waving which the mindset will complete change overnight. That is why I am repeatedly saying it is better to leave castes alone and try to eradicate the discriminations in the name of caste. Giving maximum weightage to economic status and lesser weightage to the social status will release a lot of resouraces to improve the people’s lot. The country will benefit. Caste discriination and finally the castes themselves will disappear when economic status becomes the scale in which your standing in the society is measured. Brahminical Acharyas who repeatedly are subjected to criticism bordering on vitriol by you have an altogether different role to play. They are like the high priests of the Sikh Golden Temple or the Chief Kazis of Islam. They interpret scriptures as they have understood it. Brahmins do not run to their acharyas every other day to ask for their fatwa on matters which fall within politics and economics in this world. For those following abrahamic religions it may be fine but not for Hindus or particularly Brahmins. Yes they are God in flesh and blood because they operate at that level.

Now, let me give an example of what I am arguing for. We all know about the unrest that took place in Paramakkudi last year. One Dalit youth was murdered and six Dalits died as a result of police firing. For a detailed accounting of what happened visit this link. This is a clear case of dominant Thevar caste ruthlessly suppressing Dalits. Brahmins cannot be held responsible for this atrocity, that much is clear. But what did they do about it?

The incident you have mentioned is a political event. The rhetorical question “what did they do about it?” can have only one answer. The answer will be “ are you seriously interested in knowing what you should do to prevent such horrible things happening in future? If so come to me. I will tell you.” Brahmins are not politicians to hypocritically make announcements on every political event happening in this country. They know that they are not even in the fringe of the consciousness of the society to command any respect or to be yielded any participation.

A more interesting question is what can they about it? No Brahminical Matham can condemn such jAti based atrocity with a straight face as they themselves practice jAti based discrimination till this very day. To be able to credibly stand up against the crimes of Thevars against Dalits Brahmins must first repudiate Dharmashashthras and openly end religious support for Varna system. Those who think they are Brahmins surely have this responsibility. That is just the start

If they condemn, the next day the matham’s electrical connection will be cut or worst still people in the matham may receive through the line a jolt of raw 4KV. The police may come and knock at the door with a complaint lodged by some black shirt hero about the bad treatment meted out to the cow in the stable of the mutt. I am a brahmin and I do not know what all is said in the Dharmashastras. I think this is enough to convince you that there is no need for any repudiation. How can I repudiate something which I do not know. So the ‘start’ is itself a non-starter.

Then, they must actively work towards openness and equality within their own ranks, slowly building trust and respect from all fellow Tamils. Then, a day will surely come when the Brahmins can stand shoulder to shoulder with their Dalit brothers and fight bigotry and injustice as equals and not get laughed off.

The Thevars, Mudalis, Chettys and Naickers did not and do not work towards openness and equality building trust and respect from the fellow tamils and yet they are called Revolutionary Heroes, Indian Socrates etc., So it is clear that Tamils will never accept those brahmins who do what you say and what you have left unsaid here(more ic marriages to achieve the goal quickly). It is the compulsion and wisdom of time that will make dalits look to brahmins for solidarity and help. It is already happening and it will become the rule of the day in course of time. Dalits know already who are casteists.

This is what I am arguing for, not for today’s Brahmins to be held guilty for past crimes or to force some silly useless apology from them.So, let me repeat, I am not arguing for Brahmins to stand up and accept guilt or offer up a collective apology. It is up to the individual Brahmins to stop offering up defensive arguments and try to live up to an universal standard of moral justice and compassion.

You have travelled quite some distance. You will travel more, I am sure.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Darwin's theory also applies to society. One must be fit to survive in it. Meekness, ignorance and lack of aggressiveness are not essentially that makes a person successful today.

I agree with that. That is not to say that Brahmins can not change their behaviour on their own,

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Raju,

I am a brahmin and I do not know what all is said in the Dharmashastras. I think this is enough to convince you that there is no need for any repudiation. How can I repudiate something which I do not know. So the ‘start’ is itself a non-starter.

Most of the brahmins I meet fall in this category, including myself. That is why I do not see what some of the others are seeing. May be the Brahmins they know are like what they portray, so we never have an educated conversation.

 

[Nara]

Dear Raju, Yours is a very long response for me to deal with in a single post. So, I am going to break it down into smaller pieces and respond over a period of time. In this post I am going to respond to your charge I am opinionated.

Who among us is not opinionated? If the opinions I express make me "opinionated" in your opinion, then I could retort the opinions you express make you "opinionated" in my opinion. We will go in circles. A better approach is to strictly criticize the opinions and refrain from making judgmental comments about the other person. Such comments over time builds up and creates bad blood. It is up to you to (a) understand what I am trying to say or (b) make excuses.

... You have used the terms “irate brahmins”, “defensive missives”, “protestations” and finally “veneer of truth”.

1. brahmins are not irate.

In the course of almost two years in this forum I have been called a range of choice epithets for the stand I have taken against Brahminism, by a long list of Brahmins, you included. Among them are Brahmin Hater, Brahmin Basher, having Single-Agenda, and much more. These are verifiable facts and they only reveal their ire making them irate Brahmins.

2. They are not defensive about any thing.

Whenever the evils of jAti/varna system is brought out everybody piles on, you first, look at those Nayakars, Thevars and Vanniyars, they are the ones doing all the oppression, we are not, never answering the charge. This makes you Brahmins defensive.

3. What they make is not protestations.

Any call to take a critical look at what varna/jAti system has wrought is immediately met with the response "don't make us guilty for the misdeeds of past". This is protestations.

4. Truth is always strong, vibrant and beautiful.

Truth is beautiful from afar. Up close it can prick, it can hurt, it can be quite smelly, dirty, etc. Bravely facing the truth head on will make us stronger and that is what I have been advocating.

When one reads your posts on this topic one gets only the impression that you are exhorting the brahmins.

Yes, I am exhorting Brahmins to shed their Brahmin identity and let their true and natural identity, one that is nothing more and nothing less than compassionate human beings, shine brightly.

The reason I am addressing Brahmins and not Naickar, Thevar, et al. is because of my background. Further, if you know of any forum where these Naickers, Thevars, et al congregate please send me the links and I will fearlessly address them as well with equal vigor and commitment.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[sbvinfotech]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]My father expired in feb,2011, I and my elder brother perform the 13 day karmas. on occasion of first death annual ceremony (varushabdikam). Can I do the varushabdikam individually or I have to do with elder brother. I want to do Individually (Some problem with my brother) Pls advise[/FONT]

 

[prasad1]

My father expired in feb,2011, I and my elder brother perform the 13 day karmas. on occasion of first death annual ceremony (varushabdikam). Can I do the varushabdikam individually or I have to do with elder brother. I want to do Individually (Some problem with my brother) Pls advise

I am sorry for your loss.
You need to post your quarries in the appropriate category to get a helpful answer.

 

[nachi naga]

My father expired in feb,2011, I and my elder brother perform the 13 day karmas. on occasion of first death annual ceremony (varushabdikam). Can I do the varushabdikam individually or I have to do with elder brother. I want to do Individually (Some problem with my brother) Pls advise

plz do individually.may you have peace.

 

[prasad1]

plz do individually.may you have peace.

Good to see you nachi, I thought you had disappeared too.

 

[KRS]

Dear Brother Nara Ji,

You said:

Now, let me give an example of what I am arguing for. We all know about the unrest that took place in Paramakkudi last year. One Dalit youth was murdered and six Dalits died as a result of police firing. For a detailed accounting of what happened visit this link. This is a clear case of dominant Thevar caste ruthlessly suppressing Dalits. Brahmins cannot be held responsible for this atrocity, that much is clear. But what did they do about it?

A more interesting question is what can they about it? No Brahminical Matham can condemn such jAti based atrocity with a straight face as they themselves practice jAti based discrimination till this very day. To be able to credibly stand up against the crimes of Thevars against Dalits Brahmins must first repudiate Dharmashashthras and openly end religious support for Varna system. Those who think they are Brahmins surely have this responsibility.

That is just the start.

Then, they must actively work towards openness and equality within their own ranks, slowly building trust and respect from all fellow Tamils. Then, a day will surely come when the Brahmins can stand shoulder to shoulder with their Dalit brothers and fight bigotry and injustice as equals and not get laughed off.

This is what I am arguing for, not for today’s Brahmins to be held guilty for past crimes or to force some silly useless apology from them.]

Brother, I am glad you have clarified on collective apology and that is good.

Now the Paramakudi incidence. This is a matter for a duly elected TN Government with India's secular laws to resolve. I do not think that the Brahmin community is any way responsible for this tragic situation. Again in my opinion, your request that somehow the Brahmins should stand with the Dalits on this one is absurd. Because, then in addition to have no effect, the community will anatagonize the Thevars. These types of caste warfare should be left to the State to resolve. To assume somehow the Brahmins carry any influence on any other Jathis (for that matter within their own divisions) is not valid. They will become a laughing stock, more than they are now.

This request to me also smacks of a thought that says that somehow the Brahmins are still viewed as superior and so they need to tell their 'little' brothers, the Thevars that what they are doing is not sanctioned. Guess what? The Thevars are gonna say, don't patronize us, don't tell us what to do, mind your own business. I won't be surprised if the Dalits say that too.

When the current Periaval of the Kanchi Matham tried to mediate between the Hindus and the Muslims, it blew up on his face. Why should the Mathams get involved in these State matters?

I am as a Hindu do not discriminate. Knowing that I live in a secular world and a morality that says that all men are created equal with respect to their rights, I feel I am doing my dharma as a Brahmin for current times.

Regards,
KRS

 

[suraju06]

Dear Nara,

Your post #41 for reference:

Who among us is not opinionated? If the opinions I express make me "opinionated" in your opinion, then I could retort the opinions you express make you "opinionated" in my opinion. We will go in circles. A better approach is to strictly criticize the opinions and refrain from making judgmental comments about the other person. Such comments over time builds up and creates bad blood. It is up to you to (a) understand what I am trying to say or (b) make excuses.

I understand your opinions well and I get tired because of the relentless targeting of brahmins exclusively.

In the course of almost two years in this forum I have been called a range of choice epithets for the stand I have taken against Brahminism, by a long list of Brahmins, you included. Among them are Brahmin Hater, Brahmin Basher, having Single-Agenda, and much more. These are verifiable facts and they only reveal their ire making them irate Brahmins.

When you repeatedly and relentlessly target brahmins/'brahminism' to the exclusion of every one else involved with the casteism, brahmins respond by recognising it as brahmin bashing. This is only a normal reaction. When KK pins a poster saying ' blacks get out' an American calls it only racism/hatred and not by any other name. Calling brahmin bashing as bashing is not a guilt. If the caller proceeds to become a brahmin-basher basher (BBB) you will have reasons to complain. You have been complaining also very effectively.

Whenever the evils of jAti/varna system is brought out everybody piles on, you first, look at those Nayakars, Thevars and Vanniyars, they are the ones doing all the oppression, we are not, never answering the charge. This makes you Brahmins defensive.

everybody piles on because the majority of the members here are brahmins and they feel hurt. So they react. All the charges have been answered. No charge is left unanswered so far. When people say the other forward dominant castes are responsible for the atrocities it is just the truth to which you are not ready to give importance. Now you have yourself talked about the Thevar atrocities in the Ramnad district. It is a small but welcome change after a long time. Please read all your posts in this post since your 'Enge Vaishnavam' days and they will tell you how you had been equivocating and attacking only the brahmins and your pet 'brahminism'. What is your charge which remains to be answered?

Any call to take a critical look at what varna/jAti system has wrought is immediately met with the response "don't make us guilty for the misdeeds of past". This is protestations.

How many times should we take a critical look. Ok we have taken the critical look once more. What about others who really matter? Without their taking a critical look what can we do-a microscopic minority with little weight in the way the society is governed? This is the point stressed by every one here and yet you have nothing but repeating the worn out accusations of the atrocities committed centuries ago and the theory that the Acharyas should declare this and that, acharyas and mathams should make announcements criticising atrocities by thevars etc., I am telling you that many of the Acharyas are not known out side the street in which they live or outside the community of sishyas they have. Why don't you answer this? This is the reason why I have said you have prejudices and just opinions which are closed.

Truth is beautiful from afar. Up close it can prick, it can hurt, it can be quite smelly, dirty, etc. Bravely facing the truth head on will make us stronger and that is what I have been advocating.

From afar or near, smelly or fragrant truth is truth. That is the point I made. There can not a veneer of truth covering obnoxious falsehood. That veneer can not be truth.

Yes, I am exhorting Brahmins to shed their Brahmin identity and let their true and natural identity, one that is nothing more and nothing less than compassionate human beings, shine brightly.

You said in so many sentences that your are not exhorting brahmins and now you say you are doing that.

The reason I am addressing Brahmins and not Naickar, Thevar, et al. is because of my background. Further, if you know of any forum where these Naickers, Thevars, et al congregate please send me the links and I will fearlessly address them as well with equal vigor and commitment.

Those who oppose your views also hail from the same background as yours. To call casteism as casteism it does not require any special background. It is enough if you are not prejudiced and have an open mind to call a spade a spade.

Friend, do not take any of what I have said personally. Knowing your sensitivity, I have tried to make this single combat as smooth and non-violent as possible. If I appear to be very intense at some points, it is just my nature. I respect your right to have your views.

Thank you. Cheers.

 

[ozone]

Dear Sri Ozone Ji,

I don't get the import of your post. Do you think, I am ranting the same stuff post after post?

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sri KRS,
that was a remark from your response to the author.
I did not mean you to be the author in that context. I quoted your response to add the emphasis.

 

[sarang]

Well done sir. It is another myth that brahmins only were responsible for all the atrocities in the past. There is no justification to vilify our ancestors when the society was following the norms of the day. There is no reference in religious or secular literature highlighting atrocities by brahmins against any community. Brahmins, jains and buddhists were made fun of and caricaturized in plays; living in closed communities and following strict codes was not the prerogative of brahmins alone. This is another myth to be exploded.

Dear Nara,

Your post #41 for reference:



I understand your opinions well and I get tired because of the relentless targeting of brahmins exclusively.

 

[ozone]

There was one other comment in the forum by a member who had a similar thinking about brahmins being responsible for the attrocities and how current living brahmins have a responsibility in those perpetuations. he was upto a point of even breaking down because of the agony caused and was lamenting that he did not know what 'Prayaschitam' one needs to do to atone this. I had proposed him a personal solution. Needlessly to say, nothing happened after that.
I now understand that some folks who now have disowned being a brahmin and all the stuff attached to being so, are now automatically atoned of this guilt and that they have successfully passed their ancestors guilt to the other living brahmins. What say?