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Shiva

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Dear Ashwin_ash,

To put first things first, since you are a quintessential Palghat Pattar, I concede that you have every right to comment on Kerala Iyers. I also agree with you that most Kerala Iyers were (conditions might have changed vastly now and I have not been moving around very much within Kerala for the last nearly twenty years) only superficially religious (more involved with their agrarian absentee-landlord ways) and very much unlike the TN tabras some 20 or 30 years ago. It is also true that many Kerala Iyers used to tie up keys in their "poonal" and for a scratching back, what better contraption than the poonal?:) Nowadays, of course, I find it insufficient and have purchased a 'back scratcher' made of plastic with a sufficiently long aluminium handle, made in...where else? China!

There is no God or deva named "Siva" in Rigveda; only Rudra is there and this rigvedic rudra is someone who is — a howling, crying, nomadic, fierce, dweller of the middle region (BhuvaH - this meant the mountain slopes of the Hindu Kush originally, in the early rigvedic period, and the Himalayas, later on (after the time the rik "imam me gange yamune sarasvati shutudristomagm sacataa parushniyaa...etc. was composed.) This rudra appears to have been "morphed" into the later Siva as and when the Aryans (i.e., the people who followed the rigveda as their holy compilation) came to know about the Saivism and the Tantric Saivism which was quite popular in the Kashmir region as also in Deccan. Hence we find the Satarudreeya or the more commonly called "sri rudram" in the Yajurveda.

This Siva was originally the supreme godhead of saivism and is still so; but the hindu purana-writers made siva as one of their Trinities, and as the Destroyer. The mischief lies in the various puranas and not in Saivism. Whether the puranas themselves were a handiwork of the newly emerging Vaishnava theology, I can't say, but may be it was.

Siva cult is different and a Tantric one which is very different from ordinary Saivism which most Kerala Iyers used to follow mainly, some 50 or 60 years ago. But of late there is a distinct leaning towards the vaishnavite deities and that is the main reason for the great popularity which we now witness for Guruvayur, Udupi, Bhagavatham, Narayaneeyam, etc. This current fashion trend seems to have marginalized Rama, Ramayana etc., among tabras at least. Saivism was not and is still not atheistic but it broadly eschews the emotional and erotic titillation quotients which Krishnabhakti, Rasaleela etc., attempt to import into religion.

Dear Sir,

The prevailing Vaishnavite cult is the Gaudiya Vaishnavite cult propagated by the Iskcon-ites. Acc. tradition, anyone who visits Guruvayoor has to pay a visit to the Mammiyoor Siva temple soon afterward. Whether the Iskcon-ites who now seem to be the chief claimants to the title of 'Vaishnavites' will allow that tradition to continue is a matter of debate and concern.

Most Kerala temples follow Tantra Vidhi and eschew traditional Vedic forms of worship. For many Palakkad Pattars, Manapulli Kavu Bhagavati is the family deity and it can be construed that the community follows the Sakta tradition, which is Tantric in nature.
 
Dear Sir,

Where does it say that Tambrams have to always be hyper-sensitive about even harmless stuff? This, coupled with an unwillingness to move with the times, can give other communities a handy stick to beat Tambrams with.

Dear Ashwin,

Had you spoken about your self no one would have raised an issue...Since you talked in general about the Kerala Iyers the issue has cropped up...

I know several Kerala Iyers and none has the habit that you mentioned......May be they do such stuff when they are alone...LOL!.

May be they had changed their habits after some criticism of Kamal's movie which showed him doing the stuff that you mentioned..LOL.

Incidentally Kerala Iyers have their separate samooham in net which is active...They may not like your remark about them which you thought was harmless
 
Dear Ashwin,

Had you spoken about your self no one would have raised an issue...Since you talked in general about the Kerala Iyers the issue has cropped up...

I know several Kerala Iyers and none has the habit that you mentioned......May be they do such stuff when they are alone...LOL!.

May be they had changed their habits after some criticism of Kamal's movie which showed him doing the stuff that you mentioned..LOL.

Incidentally Kerala Iyers have their separate samooham in net which is active...They may not like your remark about them which you thought was harmless

Very true, and getting permission of a habitual BB is not a permission to attack any group. Please do not learn social behavior from Charles Milles Manson either.
Stereotyping a group as a butt of joke is only when you do not have good intelligent jokes.
 
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Indianassaultji,
What is that you achieve by chanting Vishnu Shasranamah, or Rama, Rama etc? What is the goal? Can you explain?

Prasad Sir,
Its just a habit and good one i suppose. It has helped me to remain righteous, humble and adhere to my personal values. My mother taught me the power of faith and prayer and I follow them. Earlier i used to have expectations and pray, but nowadays its more generic in the tone of " Explore. God is always with you" .

All purely personal views and experiences. Kalaikaravaaa pugundhu Kalaaikalaam...:P
 
Prasad Sir,
Its just a habit and good one i suppose. It has helped me to remain righteous, humble and adhere to my personal values. My mother taught me the power of faith and prayer and I follow them. Earlier i used to have expectations and pray, but nowadays its more generic in the tone of " Explore. God is always with you" .

All purely personal views and experiences. Kalaikaravaaa pugundhu Kalaaikalaam...:P

Noble aspirations, all the more power to you. I do not know the power of chanting, but I have Witnessed the power of meditation. So any chant may be used and it is up to the person chanting.
 
From the way Shiva and Vishnu and others have been depicted in sculptures, idols and photos, Kushboo, Tendulkar, Nityanand Swami, Sri Sri, JV, Swaminarayan, Jain Tirtankar, Buddha, Krishna, Rama, Narayana, Brahma must be the latest gods in that order. In that way Shiva must be the oldest, wearing tiger skin, poorly dressed, matted hairs, and not-cared-for appearance nagayagnopaveedineem, etc. etc. Well, all people have problems with themselves and they will find it inconvenient to change themselves or see god is one. From a couple of thousands of years from now people would be praying robots as gods besides innumerable petty gods now strewn all over earth, as councilors, MLAs, MPs, Ministers, Elephants, "Hand" (pancha), Lotus, Broomstick.
 
Those who start by saying "I am not against freedom of speech" and then use the word "but" right after that reveal a complete and total ignorance of what freedom of speech really is. Then saying they are for responsible speech only confirms the ignorance. Voltaire is weeping somewhere ...
 
<edited. removed the unneeded/uncalled for portions - praveen>
For your information.

Limits of Freedom of Speech


Does the First Amendment mean anyone can say anything at any time? No.
The Supreme Court has rejected an interpretation of speech without limits.


Because the First Amendment has such strong language, we begin with the presumption that speech is protected. Over the years, the courts have decided that a few other public interests — for example, national security, justice or personal safety — override freedom of speech. There are no simple rules for determining when speech should be limited, but there are some general tests that help.
Education for Freedom Lesson 4

Exceptions to free speech in the United States are limitations on the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech and expression as recognized by the United States Supreme Court. These exceptions have been created over time, based on certain types of speech and expression, and under different contexts. While freedom of speech in the United States is a constitutional right, these exceptions make that right a limited one.


Restrictions that are based on people's reactions to words include both instances of a complete exception, and cases of diminished protection. Speech that involves incitement, false statements of fact, obscenity, child pornography, threats, and speech owned by others are all completely exempt from First Amendment protections. Commercial advertising receives diminished, but not eliminated, protection.


Along with communicative restrictions, less protection is afforded for uninhibited speech when the government acts as subsidizer or speaker, is an employer, controls education, or regulates the following: the mail, airwaves, legal bar, military, prisons, and immigration.

United States free speech exceptions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Please update your knowledge it is dated.
 
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Prasad is right on the mark. Freedom of speech is not absolute. Perhaps the US citiizenship test should have included that.

Try insulting the prophet in Saudi Arabia and see if you get a terminal response or not.

In this forum, freedom of speech can only be regulated by Praveen. Since he is paying for it.
 
Namaskarams,

Only in Tamil nadu we see the great divide as Saiva and Vaishnava. The vaishnavas never enter into Siva temples. But saivaites never have any reservations in entering into vishnu temples. Northern side both siva and vishnu are the one and the same. All the temples have both the deities. Though people wear the thripundram or oorthvapundram they both sit on single dais and discuss and live friendly. Please do'nt indulge into these unnecessary chit chatting. "Ariyum sivanum Onnu athai ariyadavan vaayil mannu".

Anbudan
Adiyen


You please tell this to all Jeers and their followers.
 
From the way Shiva and Vishnu and others have been depicted in sculptures, idols and photos, Kushboo, Tendulkar, Nityanand Swami, Sri Sri, JV, Swaminarayan, Jain Tirtankar, Buddha, Krishna, Rama, Narayana, Brahma must be the latest gods in that order. In that way Shiva must be the oldest, wearing tiger skin, poorly dressed, matted hairs, and not-cared-for appearance nagayagnopaveedineem, etc. etc. Well, all people have problems with themselves and they will find it inconvenient to change themselves or see god is one. From a couple of thousands of years from now people would be praying robots as gods besides innumerable petty gods now strewn all over earth, as councilors, MLAs, MPs, Ministers, Elephants, "Hand" (pancha), Lotus, Broomstick.

Sir, you have missed the "Mother of Telangana" in your list :). But whether she is a Hindu God or Christian God remains to be seen :P
 
....Exceptions to free speech in the United States are limitations on the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech and expression as recognized by the United States Supreme Court.
Now that the unwanted comments have been edited out by Praveen, I shall express an opinion.

The objection is not to reasonable restrictions to freedom of speech, such as not shouting fire in a crowded theater. The objection is to what is asserted as "responsible" speech. Who decides what is "responsible", certainly not the likes of the self appointed busybodies. No supreme court of a liberal democracy has ruled the tender and delicate feelings of the majority is reason enough to restrict free speech. I for one endorse Voltaire's maxim, "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." and that includes the inane idea of "responsible speech" spouted by a few.
 
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In many places in Europe, it is illegal to hurt "the tender and delicate feelings" of a particular group of people. Exercising "free speech" to deny the holocaust for example will land people i jail. Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Voltaire is long dead and buried, what is reasonable free speech or not is now decided by laws and by courts. In this forum, the word of Praveen is law. People who defy this law should choose exile or be banned.
 
In many places in Europe, it is illegal to hurt "the tender and delicate feelings" of a particular group of people. Exercising "free speech" to deny the holocaust for example will land people i jail. Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Voltaire is long dead and buried, what is reasonable free speech or not is now decided by laws and by courts. In this forum, the word of Praveen is law. People who defy this law should choose exile or be banned.

You are so right, and you expressed it beautifully.
Even in USA after 9-11 the concept of free speech has undergone changes. In India the concept of freedom of speech is all together different.
 
In many places in Europe, it is illegal to hurt "the tender and delicate feelings" of a particular group of people. Exercising "free speech" to deny the holocaust for example will land people i jail. Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Voltaire is long dead and buried, what is reasonable free speech or not is now decided by laws and by courts. In this forum, the word of Praveen is law. People who defy this law should choose exile or be banned.

Shri Biswa,

Shri Praveen has already said clearly that there has been no ban on dissenting opinions in this forum right from its start. So why is a "more pious than God" attitude being taken by you? <removed personal remarks - praveen>

I don't think in India this tender feeling thingy will ever work. What is normal for one group may be extremely touchy, vulgar or affecting the so-called "tender feelings" of another group. I had already stated that if this majoritarian tyranny is overdone, this site will lose many members because it is the spectrum of views on various topics which draws "clickers" to this site. That has also been coming down. Now you people from US can bolster the forum. I choose the "voluntary-exile" option.
 
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