Even the characterization of certain criticisms as bashing is also a criticism. Is it not? What I find is that the self-styled critiques are trigger-happy to give it but are unable or not ready to take it.
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Smartas - The Eclectic Hindus
- Thread starter Nacchinarkiniyan
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Even the characterization of certain criticisms as bashing is also a criticism. Is it not? What I find is that the self-styled critiques are trigger-happy to give it but are unable or not ready to take it.
It would have been better had I written "welfare of the brahmins", because that is what I meant. I do not think forum members discriminate between tamil brahmins and other brahmins when it comes to "criticizing" brahmins. My point was that these forum members cannot expect brahmins, tamil or otherwise, to remain a sitting duck and take in all criticisms without any riposte just because the forum is titled "tamilbrahmins.com". IMO, discussions in this forum are NOT just meant to be "about" brahmins but are meant to be "for" the benefit of brahmins.
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I hear of people faking resumes and coming up with fake degree certificates. It turns out a particular group is more commonly associated with such an activity. Lets say I identify myself as someone belonging to that group (linguistically). Should I support their fake resume culture? For the so-called welfare or benefit of the group?
renuka
Well-known member
கால பைரவன்;185300 said:
Dear Sir,
Please do not be too sure.
Some members might want to be specific in what they write.
That is why now I have started to use the word Tamil Brahmin and Non Tamil Brahmin when I write in forum.
Using the word Brahmin alone is too broad a spectrum.
I am not finding fault with anyone or any TB but it is just that at times we members might want to be specific cos no two individuals are alike so it is not fair to group all Brahmins under 1 umbrella for praising or for bashing!
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C RAVI
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I strongly object your above false accusations, Shri. Sangom.
When the debate was on going about the existence of God, many of we members were into intensively serious debate/argument in favor and in against of the existence of God.
Atheists not only pointed out their view points BUT also flown upon Theism and its related systems. The same flavor was presented and offered from Theist group. There supposed to be nothing to be taken personal. It was all for the topic under debate and the flow carried us all along in its full swing.
So, please for God's sake (Oh!! Am sorry, for humanity sake) don't say that Theist group/jalara chased Shri.Nara out
As far as my understanding is concerned, Shri.Nara stopped participating only after heated controversy erupted under EVR Thread.
What ever thread topic might have paved a way for Shri.Nara's out, it was purely on his own discretion.
Many of us have been attacked in various degrees and many of us have ignored such things and are continuing here.
So, please, let us not try to brew a different kind of blame game and hatred for any one's exit.
<the quoted message has been edited to remove the original reply that has since been removed. otherwise the crux of the post is intact. - praveen>
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sangom
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Dear Shri Ravi,
Since Shri Praveen has edited my original post with some comments, I cannot write here what I want to write, completely. All the same, your accusation that atheists not only pointed out their views BUT (why shout?) also flown upon (what does this mean?) Theism and its related systems, looks little childish or immature to me. If you observe without bias, you will find that this "flying upon" is and has to be, resorted to by any group in order to substantiate its view point. For example, if the theists simply say "there is God and we believe in God" and go on giving more and more details about god, religion and related topics, while the opposite group simply go on repeating "we don't believe in religion and god because god does not exist", where will it lead to? It will be a comic act.
Hence it becomes necessary not only to stress one's own viewpoint but also try to disprove (demolish is the word often used in this context when talking of the Bhashyas by our various Acharyas, like "Ramanuja in his Sreebhashyam demolished Shankara's mAyAvAda and thus the advaita philosophy", etc.) the opposite point or "poorvapaksha" as mentioned in the various bhashyas. In so doing, it is quite possible that what you call as "flown upon" has happened on both sides.
No comments in the light of the moderation. But I hope we all know the truth.
C RAVI
0
Shri Sangom,
BUT (why shout)? - This is what you are asking me, right?
"BUT", I typed all in Caps. as per my usual practice to distinguish the following statement from the initial one. For your kind information, its not my Shout!!
You call me childish or my statement stupid, I don't care because I don't want to get into such argument where a person some how breaks his/her head to twist and turn a simple statement and find fault in it just to put down the strength of the post that is based on Facts.
By saying - "Atheists flown upon Theism and its related systems", I didn't attempt to register my objection or criticism against it.
Unlike some members here, I have never considered such criticism out of scope of such controversial topic. Nor I take them personally, unless specific personal remarks are made against me.
The crux of my post is that, both Atheist and Theist group were on toes to attack each others believe system and in that argument there was lot of heat generated. This heat has effected many members of both the Theist and Atheist group. AND, None of them have quit the forum on those grounds.
So, you blaming some group of members who are Theist as the sole reason of chasing Shri.Nara away JUST because of Theistic belief system/fanaticism etc does not hold water and does not justify your accusations.
That's all I wanted to convey.
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I agree 100%. I hope this history does not repeat and lost cause is not resurrected here.
prasad1
Active member
Let us be reasonable here. Some members left because of their ego and arrogance. Some were disenchanted by some other factors. We bemoan the departure of some and welcome them back when they come back. Some disappear into oblivion with out a trace.
It is free forum.
None of us the true nature of Brahman, we all are guessing. Knowledge should be respected, it is upto each of us to get our philosophy right by us.
If a brahmin (just because he happens to born) or any one else expects to be treated as some one special they are wrong. Similarly a successful individual should be admired not because of his birth.
It is free forum.
None of us the true nature of Brahman, we all are guessing. Knowledge should be respected, it is upto each of us to get our philosophy right by us.
If a brahmin (just because he happens to born) or any one else expects to be treated as some one special they are wrong. Similarly a successful individual should be admired not because of his birth.
sangom
0
Posts # 107, 108, 109 and others on a similar vein and purpose,
I give below the post to which my moderated post was a response:
You will see above that the said post casts blame on the moderation which caused the loss of "a learned member of the forum." That it pointed such an accusing finger is borne out by the following post:
My post under criticism came thereafter and after moderation, it now appears as under:
You will thus see that while one member is allowed freedom to put the blame for losing one learned member on some one, when I said that there is a certain group (of "Jalras" which term was first used by the SM himself in this forum) which worked in tandem to make a particular and more learned member to abandon this forum, both Praveen and Ravi have not taken kindly to it.
Can we not have at least some equal treatment to all the members? That is my point.
I give below the post to which my moderated post was a response:
You will see above that the said post casts blame on the moderation which caused the loss of "a learned member of the forum." That it pointed such an accusing finger is borne out by the following post:
My post under criticism came thereafter and after moderation, it now appears as under:
You will thus see that while one member is allowed freedom to put the blame for losing one learned member on some one, when I said that there is a certain group (of "Jalras" which term was first used by the SM himself in this forum) which worked in tandem to make a particular and more learned member to abandon this forum, both Praveen and Ravi have not taken kindly to it.
Can we not have at least some equal treatment to all the members? That is my point.
C RAVI
0
Shri Sangom,
I have high regard for you and I can understand how bad/wrong you must be feeling for having your post moderated, where you have tried blaming others, related to past, to justify your objection in this present circumstances.
Kindly don't take me wrong.
You accused some group of Theists as the reason behind Shri.Nara's quiting. From among many I am one who fit into that group of Theists. Even if I am not a part of that group, I would honestly post my objection. It is not at all correct to make such accusations on a group of people who took a particular stance in a controversial topic (where heated arguments obviously takes place) for some one's exiting this forum. Such accusations are absolutely baseless. Neither Theists nor Atheist/Agnostic in this forum should make such a claim, IMHO.
If you have anything to register against a visible disparity in meting out treatment, in the present context, hinting on some post/member (without putting blame on a group of members who all shared common view points and took a side to contest, that too in the past, that too in some other thread topic), than it would certainly make things better.
In fact, in this thread, in the present context, I support your claim very much that a moderator should be accepted for his moderation giving apt reasons.
All men and all members are equal in law and in posting. But what is abuse or blasphemy or bashing or intemperate is not so easy to distinguish. All bashers claim that they have the freedom to bad mouth our scriptures, ancestors, practices, traditions, mannerisms and everything they find not conforming to their new found wisdom. All the ills, perceived or real are hoisted on brahmin community; majority of brahmins in the past and in the present age are mostly docile, mind their own business and make the best of available opportunities in a visible hostile environment. Some bashers even go to the extent of demanding the extinction of the community and burial of the brahminical traditions.
Even in public life, what is abusive or unparliamentary or blasphemous is not accepted by the warring parties, but decided by the court. Varun gandhi was recently absolved by the court for his projected communal statement 'hath katega'.
The owner and moderator of the forum have the interests of the forum, its survival, visibility, economics and overall wellness, as their prime objective; they will take the right decision that will meet the forum criteria.
Even in public life, what is abusive or unparliamentary or blasphemous is not accepted by the warring parties, but decided by the court. Varun gandhi was recently absolved by the court for his projected communal statement 'hath katega'.
The owner and moderator of the forum have the interests of the forum, its survival, visibility, economics and overall wellness, as their prime objective; they will take the right decision that will meet the forum criteria.
Isnt that it has always been.
A glass is half full or half empty depending on how one sees it. The same case with the moderation.
Holding the moderating team responsible for x or y leaving is not going to affect us much. Just because one says so does not mean it is the truth or it is the only reason. I can counter it and so can the member posted. But is that leading us to somewhere? No! Is arguing amongst us going to bring that member back? I do not know.
But all i know is others are going to be encouraged by that and start a similar thing.
But, that is not the case with accusing other members. It is a silly thing to say and def not the right thing as well. So the moderating team jumps in and edits a few posts, posts a few warnings etc...
Voila - instantly a post just like how you have made crops up talking about unfair treatment and what not.
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Truth is always bitter and we all, including myself, need a dummy to blame our mistakes on. The fact that one member (whoever it might be) has chosen to leave is because of how he or she was treated by other members. The moment one person latches on him or her and starts arguing for the heck of it without bothering to see reason, there are others waiting for some action. In no time one becomes 10 and 10 becomes 100. Eventually this member is heckled out of the group.
The sad thing is the 100 members carefully hide their <insert a word that describes bullying or similar> words behind scriptures and old texts etc. etc. etc. While this single member in the heat of arguments lets loose a few expletives. This is immediately latched on, reported and we step in to edit it. Then the member sees it as unfair treatment and leaves.
Fast forward a few months - It is the moderating team who is responsible for driving x or y or z out.
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A decision is made based on various things and def not based on who is posting what. It is a factor but it is not the only factor.
So, if you want to crib about the unfair treatment, be my guest you can do so all that you want. But beyond a threshold, those posts will be edited or deleted.
The choice is yours to make.
I have provided a platform primarily for Knowledge sharing, teaching others a thing or two about our rich heritage and how we can adapt to the current generation.
But if somebody wants to use it to crib about unfair treatment or heckle a few good ppl out of this place, then this is not the place for you. And it clearly shows your intent of being here.
We all have egos. If yours is the size of a football field mine is probably the size of a football. If you can shout i can shout. But is it of any use? You guys are supposed to be seniors (in age, experience and learnings) who should be guiding people like us (youngsters) but if you are unwilling to do so and let your ego take over your decision making, what can we do about it?
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Difficult to decipher as smarthas. Better to spend more time on the topic.
I read about smarthas in Devathin Kural long ago. I am trying to locate periyaval's writing to recollect and understand.
I read about smarthas in Devathin Kural long ago. I am trying to locate periyaval's writing to recollect and understand.
OP
OP
That post was a computer glitch. I was playing Assassins Creed. Sorry.
OP
OP
This has happened often. I do not think a moderator can do much.
But I would request that if the member who is being attacked by the coterie reports to the moderator, he should intervene and warn the coterie. May be this would help.
That bring me back memories when I ran away from the Moderator's post and also the member of times when I left this forum.
Of late there has been developments which run counter to this.
I quote Sangom's post
This is not in the interests of either the Tamil Brahmin community or the forum.
You can post your point of view/observations. But attacking some one else's point of view does harm. We can not have sectarian conflicts here. Nor conflicts between Atheists and Believers.
These are arguments which have been going on for hundreds of years all over the place. Lot of heat is generated, but no light thrown.
C RAVI
0
Shri Nacchi,
My reply to that of your statement above, highlighted by me in bold and listed as No.1 -
IMHO, it can not be made clear as what is the meaning of being attacked/harassed by coterie. It all depends on what the coterie is up to!
If a group of members share similar opinions, they would obviously keep expressing their views against the contrary view, supporting and strengthening each others view points while projecting their own, in a given topic, to refute and counter argue.
IMHO, the above can not be considered as an attack by a coterie, a deliberate attack to harass some one!
A moderator can be expected to come to rescue and put other(s) in order only when a person or group of like minded members join together to tease and abuse a member or a group of members.
My reply to that of your statement above, highlighted by me in bold and listed as No.2 -
Again, IMHO, finding fault, lapse, negativity etc etc. in a particular views expressed by a member and group of members is a part of debate, especially in a controversial topic. The debate gets elaborated, members get into different perspectives and present more detailed views/counter arguments in their attempt to establish their points well and that helps every one to evaluate their own views, others views and get to know different perspectives.
Whether it's a pattimandrum on a stage or a cyber debate in a forum like this, contrary views are bound to attack other views in some way or other.
This should not be taken personally and should not be escalated to the extent of insulting and abusing a member. Only when these nasty things happen, one should report these to a Moderator and expect justice.
In a debate, argument are arguments immaterial to whether light was thrown at the end or not. If one group believes that they have thrown enough light to enlighten the opposite camp, the same is assumed by the other camp, very much equally or in a more better and assertive manner. Not just only between Theism and Atheism BUT there are many topics on which multiple perceptions and its validity exists and a final conclusion can not be determined and accepted unanimously by all as an ultimate enlightenment!!
However members may consider certain points and ponder over them to get more of self clarity and assertion at the back drop of this forum, if not in the forum itself.
The problem I find with some of the members here is, they tend to attack a person personally when his/her view points are refuted. Baseless accusation, taunting etc are carried out by a member followed by like minded other members. Only when such cheap and ridiculous things are carried out against a member, as a ganged up team, I call them - "JALARAS"
<edited. removed. Not related to the topic and not a place to have another what can be said and what cannot. much has been talked about it and i have very clearly said elsewhere anything under the sun can be discussed provided one does not start to trash other communities or people. So, do not start all over again. If you are not sure, i suggest that you read older topics or use the search feature to find answers - praveen>
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Thanks for the clarification.
I do not want readers to think I am not starting a new thread on tantrism because I do not want to. I would like them to know it is because I cannot do so. History pertaining to that literature is largely based on historical conflicts between religions (some of which are considered 'sects' today); conflicts between theists and atheists; and conflicts between agamas which accept dharmashastras versus those which do not (ironically Kurma Purana classifies Pancharatra as avaidika agama -- ie, which does not accept dharmashastras (pancharatra is based on equality of all and not on dharma rules)). Nacchinarkiniyan has made it clear 'sectarian conflicts' and conflicts between atheists and believers are not allowed here. He has also conveyed things should be in the interests of tamil brahmins and thence this forum. It is pretty much obvious content of any kind which does not adhere to smartha view and that which contradicts dharmashastras is unwelcome by esteemed members here. Considering that certain content will be very unwelcome by certain tamil brahmins, in the interests of this forum, I wish to rest my case. I will be more than happy to guide interested readers to appropriate books via PM. Thanks.
#1
hmm.. suggest that you read this here and read it very very clearly.
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ching-morals-ramayana-kids-18.html#post171911
For the benefit of others, a copy/paste
(a) any one can post his/her views to any topic/reply as long as it is related to the coversation. One can choose to ignore certain member(s) replies and continue the conversation.
#2
You are getting confused. What Nacchinarkiniyan has said is his own personal view.
#3
Again, it is your own conclusion and i cannot help you if you are going to get things mixed up. Refer #1 above.
#4
same as #1, #2 and #3.
hmm.. suggest that you read this here and read it very very clearly.
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ching-morals-ramayana-kids-18.html#post171911
For the benefit of others, a copy/paste
(a) any one can post his/her views to any topic/reply as long as it is related to the coversation. One can choose to ignore certain member(s) replies and continue the conversation.
#2
You are getting confused. What Nacchinarkiniyan has said is his own personal view.
#3
Again, it is your own conclusion and i cannot help you if you are going to get things mixed up. Refer #1 above.
#4
same as #1, #2 and #3.
Ref post # 120
Thanks for the clarification Praveen.
Thanks for the clarification Praveen.
Dear Praveen,
I am aware that you are tired of repeatedly explaining what is and what is not allowed in this forum.
However, would you please kindly answer one question?
When you say "one does not start to trash other communities or people", does this protection available to the brahmin community?
I am guessing there are many members here who would like to know the answer to the above question. That is all!
Thanks in advance!
Folks,
I want to add a few of my thoughts here, perhaps they can be taken as an addendum to Sri Praveen Ji's postings.
First and foremost, let me say this. I do not relish moderating. When I said once that I was impartial to all folks because they all complain equally, my dear younger brother, whose philosophy is completely opposite of mine, said that it only showed that I was not fair to anyone!
I understand that folks bring their passion to this Forum - be it to practice the art of language and thought, be it to propound a value system, or in extreme cases to muffle a voice that they do not agree with for whatever reason. But while doing so, when a member is left to feel hurt as a human being, not because of over sensitiveness on one's part, but because of the nastiness of uncivilized language directed against one, then we all have a stake and responsibility to correct the situation. We are a family by coming together here voluntarily, and so we all need to be careful not to hurt each other's sentiments.
That is why, irrespective of a person's origin and perceived motivations here, his/her right to express his/her ideas have been and is welcome here. But careless words break this ideal. On all sides. Careless words lead to responses that are more careless, escalating the situation to a food fight, and before the 'police' can respond, civilization runs away. I will continue to moderate harsh language and attacks on individual persons, irrespective of who they are. Because, this is my job.
One of the reasons I abstained in the recent past from the Forum was that how certain things happened and my own unfortunate unwitting role in them. Just to give a glimpse: A sweet 'sibling' quit from the Forum because of a feeling that I have wronged her; a younger brother quit because he thought there was a coterie against him that I could not control; another fellow traveler quit because he was exposed to very harsh words from a particular group of folks and we as Moderators did not support him; a fellow from a different community, though well meaning, was forced to quit because of some implied threats from unknown sources and unethical conduct from a member of our own...... the list has been too many. But I came back because, I, after much consideration have decided that I could not abandon Sri Praveen Ji and his beautiful vision for this site.
This is why I will continue to do my job. If folks think that I am partial then so be it. I will stop doing my job when Sri Praveen Ji tells me to go away.
Regards,
KRS
I want to add a few of my thoughts here, perhaps they can be taken as an addendum to Sri Praveen Ji's postings.
First and foremost, let me say this. I do not relish moderating. When I said once that I was impartial to all folks because they all complain equally, my dear younger brother, whose philosophy is completely opposite of mine, said that it only showed that I was not fair to anyone!
I understand that folks bring their passion to this Forum - be it to practice the art of language and thought, be it to propound a value system, or in extreme cases to muffle a voice that they do not agree with for whatever reason. But while doing so, when a member is left to feel hurt as a human being, not because of over sensitiveness on one's part, but because of the nastiness of uncivilized language directed against one, then we all have a stake and responsibility to correct the situation. We are a family by coming together here voluntarily, and so we all need to be careful not to hurt each other's sentiments.
That is why, irrespective of a person's origin and perceived motivations here, his/her right to express his/her ideas have been and is welcome here. But careless words break this ideal. On all sides. Careless words lead to responses that are more careless, escalating the situation to a food fight, and before the 'police' can respond, civilization runs away. I will continue to moderate harsh language and attacks on individual persons, irrespective of who they are. Because, this is my job.
One of the reasons I abstained in the recent past from the Forum was that how certain things happened and my own unfortunate unwitting role in them. Just to give a glimpse: A sweet 'sibling' quit from the Forum because of a feeling that I have wronged her; a younger brother quit because he thought there was a coterie against him that I could not control; another fellow traveler quit because he was exposed to very harsh words from a particular group of folks and we as Moderators did not support him; a fellow from a different community, though well meaning, was forced to quit because of some implied threats from unknown sources and unethical conduct from a member of our own...... the list has been too many. But I came back because, I, after much consideration have decided that I could not abandon Sri Praveen Ji and his beautiful vision for this site.
This is why I will continue to do my job. If folks think that I am partial then so be it. I will stop doing my job when Sri Praveen Ji tells me to go away.
Regards,
KRS
Without a question, Yes. But at the same time this a catch 22 situation. In any discussion, we cannot ignore the negativity associated with the topic while insisting that one talks just the positive aspects of it. That does not do us much good.
Personally, i believe, in order to move forward we must acknowledge and accept that we have a few bad apples (not just people but in what was also done). But if one is not willing to listen to the other side of the coin, then the protection will be biased.
The reason i mentioned "other communities" is because of two reasons
1) we have enough on our plate already.
2) current political scenario.
For example, If கால பைரவன் says something negative about Smartas it does not make him a non brahmin. Which is what happens in 75% of the scenarios. People simply stereotype a person based on what he says without understanding the context in which it has been posted. If கால பைரவன் can substantiate his claims with some sort of a proof (literature or news or anything else except his own conclusion), then it is fine.
Ultimately we need to understand good and bad are just two sides of a coin. Two will have to co-exist and we cannot leave one for the other.
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