such a long and lonely journey......

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to RV sir, I am also at the age of 63 but I welcome more drugs and other means for expanding life so that I may achive my goal in spititual lader and Open of the 10th Door. I am not fear of death but get the result in this birth itself only. For satsangis the main objective is to bring his Masters form in his EYE centre and his Bliss. For every body some desires to fullfil, so welcome something new is good. s.r.k.

 

[RVR]

to RV sir, I am also at the age of 63 but I welcome more drugs and other means for expanding life so that I may achive my goal in spititual lader and Open of the 10th Door. I am not fear of death but get the result in this birth itself only. For satsangis the main objective is to bring his Masters form in his EYE centre and his Bliss. For every body some desires to fullfil, so welcome something new is good. s.r.k.

Could you please enlighten as about the `Satsangi' movement.

All the best

 

[[email protected]]

To RV sir, Sat is truth sang means a place were only truth is discussed that only about the creater. The satsangs will be for 45minits and the subject is LOVE towards master and meditation, from all type of scriptures from Hindu,Islam,Bible,sufi,and other faiths,this not new it is the one and only thing that all our Saints teached and this is a unique from India and spread all over world. If I say more it is Advertisment and another spirtual froud,so if you are willing to know more Pl give me a call ,I am availble in the Home and with my books feel free to call 22390601. I understoo that you are also recently retaired. with regards s.r.k.

 

[Singleliner]

Socrates was asked: "What kind of people shall we be when we reach Elysium?"And the answer was this: "We shall be the same kind of people that we were here."

If there is an after life, and if we have started preparing for it now itself, just as I'm to-day preparing for my life tomorrow

I think the sense of old age begins when people settle into a groove or furrow, and stop learning new things. Old age has no numeric definition in terms of years, but it starts when the mind and body lose their agility when not given fresh challenges to master. One may even attain a old age at 30 itself.

To overcome one should try to do something different from the things which are already known, so he can develop new ways of learning. If you are already a klutz, try darts, tennis, and why not, think like a fido-tido and try even belly dancing. Who knows what next year will bring and may make some fabulous fortunes out of this newly learned skill.

Regarding mind,better work on musical instruments and teach your grand children later, writing little stories, adu-puli-aattam, Sudaoku, coloring canvas with oil pastels, something on computer animation, and generally to learn enough about new things to give one a bit of an understanding of them.If you were weak in Geometry in schooldays, pick up the same grade text book and learn it. Don't hesitate to buy a Camlin geometry box, during the learning process!! Why not, if you are a 60+ widower, horn your long lost romantic skill with a teen age girl,and see if she accepts your free offer of two shots of Tequila under dim lights above head. It would add confidence to this mission.

Work diligently until you reach proficiency, then move on to the next skill, while giving enough attention to the earlier learned one.In the process, one will acquire and learn plenty of hobbies so that one can occupy himself with, rather than sitting in front of a TV, anticipating my next meal from the Daughter in Law or old age home's dining table.

Btw, dont forget,at all point of times, life is awfully interesting, and 'Mr.Age' has nothing to do with that.

 

[kunjuppu]

...
Btw, dont forget,at all point of times, life is awfully interesting, and 'Mr.Age' has nothing to do with that.

sapr,

i agree with your closing sentiments.

i think, today is better than yesterday, and tomorrow will be better than this day.

i think contract bridge is one obsession, that one never grows out of and i have found people addicted to bridge seldom move on to other interests.

just a personal observation. that's all.

 

[drsundaram]

your reply to RV sir

to RV sir, I am also at the age of 63 but I welcome more drugs and other means for expanding life so that I may achive my goal in spititual lader and Open of the 10th Door. I am not fear of death but get the result in this birth itself only. For satsangis the main objective is to bring his Masters form in his EYE centre and his Bliss. For every body some desires to fullfil, so welcome something new is good. s.r.k.

sorry for intruding. I could not get your nsg. What do you mean? Can you simplify please Dr sundaram

 

[dkchari]

Dear Kunjuppuji
Journey is divinely lonely with only god the copassenger.All others are temporary.....that is philosophical lecture mostly btru but difficult to understand & use.
Let me narate a true story that continues even today. An old man about 55 attends a Bhajan every week & at the end he always insists on being given prasadam ( Dinner ) first.Because

He has to go to the station catch a train to a place about 60 kms reaching at 9.30pm then has to cycle for half an hour to reach his house . He has to cook & feed his bedridden wife & his paraplgic son. He does this daily.

His divine copassenger ?????!!!!

Well it must be the god within & his family. He is a contended Man Never alone - we are all with him

 

[RVR]

Dear Kunjuppuji
Journey is divinely lonely with only god the copassenger.All others are temporary.....that is philosophical lecture mostly btru but difficult to understand & use.
Let me narate a true story that continues even today. An old man about 55 attends a Bhajan every week & at the end he always insists on being given prasadam ( Dinner ) first.Because

He has to go to the station catch a train to a place about 60 kms reaching at 9.30pm then has to cycle for half an hour to reach his house . He has to cook & feed his bedridden wife & his paraplgic son. He does this daily.

His divine copassenger ?????!!!!

Well it must be the god within & his family. He is a contended Man Never alone - we are all with him

Thanks sri Chari ji for a nice article.If we think life is a burden, it will be a burden. It is basically mental attitude which matters when facing the situations. Let us adopt take it easy policy

Let us go back to Bagavath Geetha -
Whatever happened is Good,
Whatever happening is Good
Whatever is going to happen will also be Good.

 

[Singleliner]

Confession..

sapr

I wanna admit here. And wanna confess it to the God, Father Almighty, and to all the two erudite Mods, whom I admired the most, without any second thought.!!.

Forgiveness comes with maturity in old age and life time experience, but not in teens..Father forgive me, for I know I did nothing wrong (reminds me of Mark Knoopfler Dire straits Mans too big, mans too strong), is what the teenage kid gonna tell it to his father, after all ,that's the same kid which gonna admire the same old aged Father, and proclaim great about dad's mastery, with pride in public, without any hesitation, even if the same father calls it as flattery or judicious balanced moderation..

Facts remain the same, and for sure , no son would intentionally mock the old age father in public, though the father I call here are not that old..though the same father felt it otherwise, and tips the KGB to assassinate(not poison) his own son, in public. It reminds me of my childhood days b/w favorite movie of Dad, Thanga Pathakkam, by ShivajiGaneshan. Father you also did something wrong, for you may not know, what you did. Docile son exclaims in public about his right to express!! Old father, I admit I dated with few girls some where else some time in past, that doesn't mean I would flirt with my future wife too, and you foolishly called off my marriage, just because some one exposed you my teen age flirting incidences.

Father assassinated the son, but not killed him..But they all have their love to each other, in a different angle.. Prodigal son always had a love towards father, and he always had an admiration for him in public, which no one could stop it, even if the father disowned him in public.

I was wondering , if that assassination(not axing) was the fault of the Loving old age Father or the naughtiness of the erratic son, with some good logic and philosophy.

Will you let me in, and call for a party out to all the folks and celebrate a coming home day in a grand way... Please let me in, with the same old name, instead of reincarnation and new baptisms..The son appealed to the erudite bed ridden father, who thought the world is still going in his own way of 60's

Modern day saying goes.........Father(s),forgive me , for I know, what I have done is wrong,may be, according to you.

PS: Spar'k will login after 4 Hrs to see, if the supposed prodigal son was forgiven by the old age father.. After all, in this thread, we are talking about Old age and last journey

 

[kunjuppu]

To me, death is distinctly different from dying, as between a protocol and a process. Let me explain.

Death has been going on since time immemorial. It has been formalized in all cultures, those that believe in God and also those that does not.

No one treats death trivially.

Societies, barring a few circumstances (as suicide, betrayal) have always glorified death.

Whether it be the soldier who proudly gives up his life for his motherland or the terrorist who performs the same ultimate sacrifice, in what appears to be a devious manner.

I call the willing parting of life, the ultimate sacrifice, only because to me, it is a gift handed to me, and which I did not do anything to earn, and once given, cannot be retrieved.

To me, what connects death to dying is grief.

Grief bursts out, at significant points when the protocol of death meets the process of dying.

I can remember some of those distinct moments ie the emptying of the pot of cinders on the chest of my loved ones or at the point of splitting the pindams on the 12th day of obsequies.

The first, there is no need to explain.

The second, for me not very religious, still grief came out naturally from deep within, as if some racial memory has been rekindled.

Compared to the dignity of death, dying can be messy, lengthy, painful and (sad to say) expensive.

I have been through numerous loved ones’ extended illnesses, only to witness the general sense of relief at the parting of the body and soul.

Such is the reality imposed by modern day medicine, whose goal, it appears, is to keep one’s heart beating, irrespective of the status of the rest of the body.

Whereas in a previous age, holding on to life was a struggle, nowadays, the same struggle appears to be to part with it.

The west, which I think, is a few years ahead of us, in many facets of enquiry has sections which are advocating euthanasia. Not much unlike our vanaprastha, if one wants to stretch its meaning.

The elephants have their graveyards. It is said that the Eskimo old, walk into the freezing tundra, to be fed by the bears, so that the younger members of the family can share the food.

I have often wondered, whether it would be ethical of myself, to refuse medicines, in the face of a debilitating disease, and instead opt for palliative care to ease my way out.

The doctors might be upset as it might go against their hippocretean oath.

The medical industry would be upset, as this would deprive them of a sizeable moolah.

Perhaps I myself, would be spared the intrusions, regiments and discomforts of extended care.

A gentle palliative consoling environment, surrounding by beloveds and to the soft chants, appears to me a more gentle approach to the inevitable.

Atleast, for now, it looks attractive in my mental mirror.

Thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

Originally Posted by kunjuppu                     
sapr

I wanna admit here. And wanna confess it to the God, Father Almighty, and to all the two erudite Mods, whom I admired the most, without any second thought.!!.

Forgiveness comes with maturity in old age and life time experience, but not in teens..Father forgive me, for I know I did nothing wrong (reminds me of Mark Knoopfler Dire straits Mans too big, mans too strong), is what the teenage kid gonna tell it to his father, after all ,that's the same kid which gonna admire the same old aged Father, and proclaim great about dad's mastery, with pride in public, without any hesitation, even if the same father calls it as flattery or judicious balanced moderation..

Facts remain the same, and for sure , no son would intentionally mock the old age father in public, though the father I call here are not that old..though the same father felt it otherwise, and tips the KGB to assassinate(not poison) his own son, in public. It reminds me of my childhood days b/w favorite movie of Dad, Thanga Pathakkam, by ShivajiGaneshan. Father you also did something wrong, for you may not know, what you did. Docile son exclaims in public about his right to express!! Old father, I admit I dated with few girls some where else some time in past, that doesn't mean I would flirt with my future wife too, and you foolishly called off my marriage, just because some one exposed you my teen age flirting incidences.

Father assassinated the son, but not killed him..But they all have their love to each other, in a different angle.. Prodigal son always had a love towards father, and he always had an admiration for him in public, which no one could stop it, even if the father disowned him in public.

I was wondering , if that assassination(not axing) was the fault of the Loving old age Father or the naughtiness of the erratic son, with some good logic and philosophy.

Will you let me in, and call for a party out to all the folks and celebrate a coming home day in a grand way... Please let me in, with the same old name, instead of reincarnation and new baptisms..The son appealed to the erudite bed ridden father, who thought the world is still going in his own way of 60's

Modern day saying goes.........Father(s),forgive me , for I know, what I have done is wrong,may be, according to you.

PS: Spar'k will login after 4 Hrs to see, if the supposed prodigal son was forgiven by the old age father.. After all, in this thread, we are talking about Old age and last journey

Looks like a lot of (typical) meandering here....

A confession is confessing to wrong doing, not saying "Father forgive me, for I know I did nothing wrong.....What I hv done is wrong, maybe, according to you".

That's like a thief telling the policeman "I know I did nothing wrong..(and)..what i have done is wrong, maybe, according to you"

Not sure what it is but is shd be the heights of something (crazily negative) that makes a man want to ask for "celebration of his coming home day in a grand way"... and then go on to blame the other party subtly with the typical meandering snake like way "Please let me in, with the same old name, instead of reincarnation and new baptisms..The son appealed to the erudite bed ridden father, who thought the world is still going in his own way of 60's"

Sapr, it must take you some guts, doesn't it? Lucifer does seem to fit in right.

 

[RVR]

Looks like a lot of (typical) meandering here....

A confession is confessing to wrong doing, not saying "Father forgive me, for I know I did nothing wrong.....What I hv done is wrong, maybe, according to you".

That's like a thief telling the policeman "I know I did nothing wrong..(and)..what i have done is wrong, maybe, according to you"

Not sure what it is but is shd be the heights of something (crazily negative) that makes a man want to ask for "celebration of his coming home day in a grand way"... and then go on to blame the other party subtly with the typical meandering snake like way "Please let me in, with the same old name, instead of reincarnation and new baptisms..The son appealed to the erudite bed ridden father, who thought the world is still going in his own way of 60's"

Sapr, it must take you some guts, doesn't it? Lucifer does seem to fit in right.

Excellent Ms.Happy Hindu ji,

I suspected this long back. Sri Kunjuppu ji managed to get the truth yesterday.

The reasons for banning this person from this forum is still there.

It is for the moderators to take the inevitable call.

I was totally disappointed yesterday when this person wrote Mahathma Gandhi as an opportunist. I only pity Gandhiji who got freedom for the nation which is being misused by opportunistic people like him.

If such people are allowed to talk all sorts of non-sense, I would like to leave this forum.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

Appreciate your sentiments. I think the words I have left out aptly reflect your thoughts.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sri Venkataramani ji,

(edtd KRS)

Let us ignore such people and keep walking.

Regards.

 

[vijisesh]

Something interesting i thought i will share at this point !

John Homer Miller: Great Quotes about Life
Your living is determined not so much by what life brings to you as by the attitude you bring to life; not so much by what happens to you as by the way your mind looks at what happens.

Laurence Sterne: Quotes on Respect
Respect for ourselves guides our morals; respect for others guides our manners.

 

[happyhindu]

well, the bible does speak about cheating (fraud) and integrity, but wonder why don't some certain type of christians follow it...only when a man respects others, he begets that of his own...

 

[Singleliner]

Sapr, it must take you some guts, doesn't it?

HH, amidst the tight schdl, I found your post worth to respond, instantly.

Yes,It's indeed easy for a husband to admit and confess the wrong to his own loving wife. And it's bit more hesitant to admit it, with one's own Mom. And its futher difficult to experiment that with siblings. And again, itsdefinitely hesitant & far stretching to confess it to the Dad.. And, we may not even try or think of confessing our wrong to distant cousins.

Imagine how difficult would that be,if one get's a heart to confess and admit it in public place?.. You are right in saying, ''I do have guts on this''.

I terribly admire cricketer Hansie Cronje, but not Azaruddin or Jadeja inspite of them being my fellow country men, though all three did the same mistake..You know what I mean.. Im talking about Cronje's confession in tears in front of TV Cameras.

OK.. Lets keep this personal notes aside, and move on, to share some wonderful valuable thoughts to this forum. Cheers

 

[RVR]

Let us go back to the original topic started by Sri Kunjuppu ji.

I am reminded of famous lines of Kannadaasan

வீடுவரை உறவு Veeduvarai Uravu
வீதிவரை மனைவி Veedhivarai Manaivi
காடுவரை பிள்ளை Kaaduvarai Pillai
கடைசிவரை யாரோ Kadaisivarai Yaaro.

When we die, relatives will stop at the house, wife will come upto the street corner, son will come upto the cremation ground. Finally the poet asks `who will come upto the last'.

I think we have to remind ourselves, the above lines on daily basis.

 

[kunjuppu]

thank you venkat.

i have seen often the 80-20 rule applied in almost all walks of life.

in commerce, ie, 80% of the profits is generated by 20% of the business.

in an office, 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people and so on.

if we extrapolate that to our medical expenses, i gues 80% of our lifetime medical expenses is spent, for most of us, i believe, in the latter 20% of our life.

in fact, i think, maybe even 90% of our lifetime medical expenses is expended in the last 10% of our lifetime, if not for a shorter period.

also, i think, the suffering and pain factor, for most of us, would fall along the same rule of the thumb.

in the face of better healthcare, better medical technology, and simple better lifestyle re eating & exercise, under normal circumstances, the life span for most of us, likely to exceed that of our parents.

in the context of this, with the only guarantee being increased medical expenses and suffering, as constantly improving technology, continuously mitigates the pain of the body, while increasing the pain of the depleted purse, i now come to the thought that i have now discovered that started this thread:

what is the tamil hindu attitude towards denial of medical care beyond a certain stage?

by 'medical care', i mean, active medication. just palliative comfort and pain killing is allowed.

will this fall under suicide? or is this considered a permitted relief from intolerant pain?

will this close the doors to vaikuntam or kailasam?

does the tamil hindu culture maintain a golden silence over this phenomenon?

for comparision purposes, all abrahmic religions have strictures against suicide. i believe, it is in this context, that there is the general reluctance of western medicine to permit denial of medical care (folks have gone to court over instances).

the other extreme is the shinto culture of japan, which glorifies suicide whether it be harakiri or milder methods. there is no stigma attached to it.

where do we as tamil hindus stand? i particularly would prefer a tamil hindu viewpoint, as i consider, above everything else, due to my heritage, a tamil hindu first and foremost.

thank you.

 

[RVR]

Sri Kunjuppu ji,

I am giving below an actual incident which happened less than a month back.

One of my staff's father aged around 88 years, an ex-serviceman, a devout Hindu was bed ridden in a private hospital in Chennai in an unconscious condition. His children, two daughters and one son are well settled. He had enough property worth crores of rupees but had poor liquidity. He developed multiple complications and was admitted to the hospital. After going through several procedures, the medical team told the children that he cannot recover from his illness but can be kept under ventilated condition in an ICU for days or months costing approx. Rs.1500 per day. His life cannot be predicted but if once he is out of ventilation, he can collapse within few hours.

All the children and the wife of the deceased took a collective decision not to keep him under ventilation any further and instructed the doctors to remove them. They felt the patient will suffer more if he is kept under ventilated condition.As predicted by the medical personnel, the person collapsed next day morning.

Because of availability of medical facilities, life should not be prolonged. I earnestly feel elders after fulfilling their commitment to their children should voluntarily leave the home at the old age and should devout their time at a charitable place.

As Gauthama Buddha said attachment is the root cause of problems. We should get detached atleast at the old age and move to a place of our choice. We will be having real `vanaprastha' type atmosphere. If the children want, let them come and visit us at the time of their convenience. One of the inmates of Vaishnavi temple, Tirumullaivayil Chennai died two years back and inspite of informing the near relatives, no body turn-up. Other inmates cremated him in an Electric crematorium.

 

[happyhindu]

HH, amidst the tight schdl, I found your post worth to respond, instantly.

Yes,It's indeed easy for a husband to admit and confess the wrong to his own loving wife. And it's bit more hesitant to admit it, with one's own Mom. And its futher difficult to experiment that with siblings. And again, itsdefinitely hesitant & far stretching to confess it to the Dad.. And, we may not even try or think of confessing our wrong to distant cousins.

Imagine how difficult would that be,if one get's a heart to confess and admit it in public place?.. You are right in saying, ''I do have guts on this''.

I terribly admire cricketer Hansie Cronje, but not Azaruddin or Jadeja inspite of them being my fellow country men, though all three did the same mistake..You know what I mean.. Im talking about Cronje's confession in tears in front of TV Cameras.

OK.. Lets keep this personal notes aside, and move on, to share some wonderful valuable thoughts to this forum. Cheers

Sapr,

Thanks for your reply.

Just to clarify: the "guts" i meant was of a totally diff context - that of audacious 'ness', of claiming to have not done anything wrong and subtely blaming the other side. Cud not find the exact word since my vocabulary is limited, tehrefore found the attitude or post as something crazily negative.

Am no one to judge whether you belong to the category of hansie cronje or azar-jadeja. To you, you may belong to the former, to me you may belong to the latter. However,as you say, lets keep personal thots aside and move on to sharing thots on the forum.

Regards.

 

[Singleliner]

what is the tamil hindu attitude towards denial of medical care beyond a certain stage?
.

Interesting question, and I pondered for a while over Euthanasia-Right To Die - Ethics - Ban on Death Sentence

Wiki has this:-

There are two Hindu points of view on euthanasia.
By helping to end a painful life a person is performing a good deed and so fulfilling their moral obligations. On the other hand, by helping to end a life, even one filled with suffering, a person is disturbing the timing of the cycle of death and rebirth. This is a bad thing to do, and those involved in the euthanasia will take on the remaining karma of the patient. However, the same argument suggests that keeping a person artificially alive on a life-support machines would also be a bad thing to do

 

[Singleliner]

I can remember some of those distinct moments ie the emptying of the pot of cinders on the chest of my loved ones or at the point of splitting the pindams on the 12th day of obsequies.

I could sense what's underneath those crispy lines..

For me,I wasn't there the the moment, when my father passed away 2 yrs ago in his early 60, in a cardiac arrest.
When I heard him, he is No-more, I know, hence forth I'm gonna be the hostage to all his hopes. I wanted to discuss a lot on this with him. I know, I did'nt get to tell him, all the things I had to say.And now, millions of thoughts keep popping up in mind,and when I think of him, I end up uttering to myself ,wish I could have told him, in his living years

Its too late to admit, I doubt if I would see him eye to eye, again. Is it a quarrel between the present and past about life after death?

I asked my sister, can we see him eye to eye again?. Touchingly she said, that, she had already heard dad's echo, in her new born baby's tears"

 

[kunjuppu]

venkat, single,

i have been in positions before, where i was among the group to make the decision, to pull out life support.

the patient in question would have survived only with dialysis and heart/lung machine.

there was no qualms or guilt about authorizing the doctor to pull the plug.

the doctor, incidentally, concurred with our views, as he too felt that this was not 'living' and only prolonged the patient's suffering.

personally, i have advised my kith and kin, the same.. if ever it came to that, not to extend my breathing my artificial means.

there is no controversy, as far as i am concerned, in the above instance.

but what like my relative did? he was a diabetic, and refused medicine and let life and death come at its own pace.

if you have cancer, is it ok to refuse painful chemo? would that be tantamount to suicide?

or is it permitting life to take its natural recourse?

personally, i opt for the former.

to me, suicide is a more active act of ending a healthy life, by whatsoever means.

thanks.

 

[Singleliner]

but what like my relative did? he was a diabetic, and refused medicine and let life and death come at its own pace..

I thought I could equate that to a martyrdom, in the name of God. But then, the question comes is, inspite of agreeing to the previous term of 'For God', other than that, do we have the right to take our own life, which was given by God? I mean, which could only be given by God? I think, all of us here, attribute and surrender our life to the God.

If this incident is acceptable, I dont find anything wrong with Widow burning, Sati, Death Sentence, euthanasia?

If someone cannot afford the bed ridden vegetable kind'a father's ventilallator fee, then, for what the son/daughter are living for? What is the son's obligation to the father?

if being a vegetable, we plug the pipe from nostrils, I think it would also become convincing for us to accept abortion/female infanticide/dumping cripple child etc..

Are we compromising the value for human life Vis a Vis our own comforts?

I conclude this way, it all depends on the simple thing.. VALUE FOR HUMAN LIFE......Interestingly floyd sang,the other way, A doctor in Manhattan, saved a dying man,for free!! Its a miracle!!

And I would add, A young elite man in India, summoned a barber 2 miles away to get shaved his bed ridden dad's silver facial hair, instead trying on him, his own expensive 3 lobed philips gel electric shaver

 

[RVR]

but what like my relative did? he was a diabetic, and refused medicine and let life and death come at its own pace.

if you have cancer, is it ok to refuse painful chemo? would that be tantamount to suicide?

or is it permitting life to take its natural recourse?

personally, i opt for the former.

Kunjuppu ji,

Baghavan Ramana Maharishi had cancer and refused to get operated. However due to devotees pressures he agreed for the operation but still he didn't take anaesthesia.

Paramacharya had cataract operation and according to Dr.Badrinath, who performed the operation, he didn't take anaesthesia.

Both the above Great Saints didn't had body consciousness.

But for an ordinary man like me, bearing such a pain is not an easy thing.

Rather I would prefer mercy killing.