Suicidal tendency among youngsters.

[P.J.]

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Hinduism accepts a man's right to end one's life through the non-violent practice of fasting to death, termed Prayopavesa.[SUP][/SUP]

But Prayopavesa is strictly restricted to people who have no desire or ambition left, and no responsibilities remaining in this life.

Religious views on suicide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... Islam

Most Muslim scholars and clerics consider suicide forbidden and similarly include suicide bombing as being equally forbidden.........

I got it now!

Forbidden fruit is sought most!!

 

[Nara]

... is strictly restricted to people who have no desire or ambition left, and no responsibilities remaining in this life.

P.J. since you admit that suicide is not forbidden in principle, what is the justification that it is allowed only to those "who have no desire or ambition"? For example, why not allow it for people with an intense desire to avoid pain? If this is alright, for what kind of pain can it be permitted?

Further, it seems to me that there are practical problems with this standard of "people who have no desire or ambition left", who is to adjudicate this standard? If it is up to the individual, then it is open to anyone to claim it and the standard becomes devoid any meaning. If it is not left to the individual how can this standard be administered, and who will administer it?

Thank you, Dileepan

 

[P.J.]

P.J. since you admit that suicide is not forbidden in principle, what is the justification that it is allowed only to those "who have no desire or ambition"? For example, why not allow it for people with an intense desire to avoid pain? If this is alright, for what kind of pain can it be permitted?

Further, it seems to me that there are practical problems with this standard of "people who have no desire or ambition left", who is to adjudicate this standard? If it is up to the individual, then it is open to anyone to claim it and the standard becomes devoid any meaning. If it is not left to the individual how can this standard be administered, and who will administer it?

Thank you, Dileepan

i just quoted from a link. in reply to your post about vadakku iruththal"

Probably in those days Rishis and Saints used to do Thapaz, depriving food for their body which may result in death.

Nowadays we see UNNAVIRATHAM adopted to press for a particular cause is forcibly stopped.

Gandhiji did it, and he got away with it.

 

[Nara]

i just quoted from a link. in reply to your post about vadakku iruththal"

Probably in those days Rishis and Saints used to do Thapaz, depriving food for their body which may result in death.

Nowadays we see UNNAVIRATHAM adopted to press for a particular cause is forcibly stopped......

P.J. yes I did post about vadakku iruththal. That was in response to your assertion that "No one has the right to take their own life;" post #23.

I want to take it to the next logical level and see where it will lead us. So far what I have from you are, (i) "No one has the right to take their own life;" and (ii) "Prayopavesa is strictly restricted to people who have no desire or ambition left, and no responsibilities remaining in this life."

How to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory principles is what interests me. If you are interested in the same please engage me, or else, no problem ...

best wishes, Dileepan

 

[Raji Ram]

P.J. yes I did post about vadakku iruththal. That was in response to your assertion that "No one has the right to take their own life;" post #23.......

Dear Prof. Sir,

My great grandma who lived with my eldest uncle till her ripe age of 90+, stopped eating / drinking water on one

fine morning. No one could make her open her mouth. She left this world peacefully after ten days by this fast! :rip:

My family members thought: This is known as 'vadakku iruththal'!

 

[Raji Ram]

P.J. yes I did post about vadakku iruththal. That was in response to your assertion that "No one has the right to take their own life;" post #23.......

Dear Prof. Sir,

My great grandma who lived with my eldest uncle till her ripe age of 90+, stopped eating / drinking water on one

fine morning. No one could make her open her mouth. She left this world peacefully after ten days by this fast! :rip:

My family members thought: This is known as 'vadakku iruththal'!

 

[renuka]

We are thought to believe that those who commit suicide will have to roam around in Bhuloka for a stipulated period of time as a a ghost according to Skanda Purana.

But how come in our Puranas there are many instances where those who commit suicide are born again fast to reach what they seek..mostly wanted some form of revenge.

How come Amba commited suicide and was born right away as Sikhandin...how come she did not become a Ghost and roam around earth like what we are made to believe.

Sati also committed suicide and was born as Parvati.

So is it really true that one who commit suicide hangs around as a Ghost???

 

[renuka]

Dear Prof. Sir,

My great grandma who lived with my eldest uncle till her ripe age of 90+, stopped eating / drinking water on one

fine morning. No one could make her open her mouth. She left this world peacefully after ten days by this fast! :rip:

My family members thought: This is known as 'vadakku iruththal'!

Dear RR ji,

Depression in the elderly is seldom noticed.

Severe Depression can lead to Anorexia.

 

[C RAVI]

....... (i) "No one has the right to take their own life;" and (ii) "Prayopavesa is strictly restricted to people who have no desire or ambition left, and no responsibilities remaining in this life."

How to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory principles is what interests me. If you are interested in the same please engage me, or else, no problem ...

best wishes, Dileepan

Shri Nara, excuse me to butt in.

Your questioning has interested me to respond..


(i) "No one has the right to take their own life;" - This is a spiritual advice


(ii) "Prayopavesa is strictly restricted to people who have no desire or ambition left, and no responsibilities remaining in this life." - This is the exclusivity, that is considered no wrong in Spiritual terms.


Outside the Spiritual realm, the law of the humans in this secular world has no exceptions with regard to committing suicide.

However, people end up committing suicide successfully, in which, Law can do nothing BUT in spiritual terms, the poor soul ends up accumulating negative Karma.

 

[P.J.]

P.J. yes I did post about vadakku iruththal. That was in response to your assertion that "No one has the right to take their own life;" post #23.

I want to take it to the next logical level and see where it will lead us. So far what I have from you are, (i) "No one has the right to take their own life;" and (ii) "Prayopavesa is strictly restricted to people who have no desire or ambition left, and no responsibilities remaining in this life."

How to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory principles is what interests me. If you are interested in the same please engage me, or else, no problem ...

best wishes, Dileepan

Nara Sir

Whenever i read a news about young School children ending their life after the results are out, i feel very sad for the young life as well as for the parents of that kid; that's is the reason I posted this Thread and Prasadji has posted lot of statistics about Suicides in India.

In those days, youngsters rarely ended their life for such petty matter, but this tread is on the increase nowadays.

I am interested to know how this trend can be stopped in India, and hoped the advices are read by young ones as well as parents.

Discussing about Prayopavesa or Vadakku iruthal was not my intention.

God Bless you.

 

[sangom]

Nara Sir

Whenever i read a news about young School children ending their life after the results are out, i feel very sad for the young life as well as for the parents of that kid; that's is the reason I posted this Thread and Prasadji has posted lot of statistics about Suicides in India.

In those days, youngsters rarely ended their life for such petty matter, but this tread is on the increase nowadays.

I am interested to know how this trend can be stopped in India, and hoped the advices are read by young ones as well as parents.

Discussing about Prayopavesa or Vadakku iruthal was not my intention.

God Bless you.

Shri PJ,

All these suicides take place because of the over emphasis given by parents today in their (single or maximum two) children to become achievers/performers/successes. This achievement/success is today identical with passing out of an engineering college with a B.Tech/M.Tech degree and then flying off to US for a job-connected "placement" or for M.S. degree from US. The pressure starts right from the pre-school admission and it increases as the child goes to the K.G. (pre-primary) school, then the primary, secondary and right up to the public exam in Std. XII. There, if the student does not get the grade/marks expected by its parents, its life thereafter will be hell and the child knows this. (We can compare the state of mind of such a youngster to that of a widowed woman in the days of Suttee or even later, among, us tabras when the widowed woman used to be disfigured and cast aside in a corner of the house - her parents' house which mostly meant ill-treatment at the hands of brother's wife.)

Japan had a very similar situation. I don't know if it still exists there or whether Japan could overcome that. The race there was for getting into Government service (something like our IAS) and everything depended upon the nursery school to which a toddler could gain admission, because the excellent nursery meant excellent primary school > excellent secondary school > renowned university/college > government service. So, even very young kids below the age of ten used to commit suicide.

In the good old days in India, parents had large families and people accepted their children even if they were failures in life. But today such people will be called SSO or something like that. Among the daughters now such "non-performers" are very rarely seen and even such girls get into some job, may be because of the special consideration given to females generally, but males who are not good allround, find it difficult.

No parent today tolerates a below average child, although the child did not, of its own volition, barge into the household. This stressful situation is no less in TB households also AFAIK.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri PJ,

All these suicides take place because of the over emphasis given by parents today in their (single or maximum two) children to become achievers/performers/successes. This achievement/success is today identical with passing out of an engineering college with a B.Tech/M.Tech degree and then flying off to US for a job-connected "placement" or for M.S. degree from US. The pressure starts right from the pre-school admission and it increases as the child goes to the K.G. (pre-primary) school, then the primary, secondary and right up to the public exam in Std. XII. There, if the student does not get the grade/marks expected by its parents, its life thereafter will be hell and the child knows this. (We can compare the state of mind of such a youngster to that of a widowed woman in the days of Suttee or even later, among, us tabras when the widowed woman used to be disfigured and cast aside in a corner of the house - her parents' house which mostly meant ill-treatment at the hands of brother's wife.)

Japan had a very similar situation. I don't know if it still exists there or whether Japan could overcome that. The race there was for getting into Government service (something like our IAS) and everything depended upon the nursery school to which a toddler could gain admission, because the excellent nursery meant excellent primary school > excellent secondary school > renowned university/college > government service. So, even very young kids below the age of ten used to commit suicide.

In the good old days in India, parents had large families and people accepted their children even if they were failures in life. But today such people will be called SSO or something like that. Among the daughters now such "non-performers" are very rarely seen and even such girls get into some job, may be because of the special consideration given to females generally, but males who are not good allround, find it difficult.

No parent today tolerates a below average child, although the child did not, of its own volition, barge into the household. This stressful situation is no less in TB households also AFAIK.

Very much true, Shri Sangom!!

 

[P.J.]

Sri.sangom Sir

Yes, you are right, Parents nowadays pressurize their wards too much!
in those days, parents never pressurized any of their sons.

 

[Nara]

....Discussing about Prayopavesa or Vadakku iruthal was not my intention.

P.J., since the discussion in this thread included suicide by a doctor with incurable decease and of a man desiring to avoid forfeiting his property; and further, assertion of blanket prohibition against suicide on religious grounds, and exceptions also on religious grounds, I thought I could take the discussion further and explore what the boundaries are and how to reconcile these glaring contradictions. Of course that would be an abstract discussion. Your intent, apparently, is one of practical immediacy and not thinking through the contradictions and limitations.

God Bless you.

I am not sure whether you have read some of my earlier debates, but just in case, I don’t believe in the existence of deities of any kind -- in other words I am what one would call an atheist. Therefore, the above is wasted on me

- This is the exclusivity, that is considered no wrong in Spiritual terms.
[snip]

However, people end up committing suicide successfully, in which, Law can do nothing BUT in spiritual terms, the poor soul ends up accumulating negative Karma.

Ravi, Even if spirituality is invoked there must be some cogent argument supporting the position articulated. In other words, it is not to be simply asserted. Mrs. RR cited her great grandma ending her life by simply refusing to eat or drink. Is this spiritually justified? Why or why not? Do you have a cogent spiritual framework for when ending one’s own life is spiritually justified? Can someone else assist in cases when it is justified, like physician assisted euthanasia?

Cheers!

 

[P.J.]

Nara Sir

I read some posts welcoming you back to the Forum, it shows the impact of your knowledge and contribution in this Forum.

I am really not sure how a discussion about the contradictions that exist in in religions about Suicide is going to be helpful to reduce the number of Suicides.

See how trivial matters affect youngsters and they end their life!

A twelve-year-old boy has allegedly committed suicide by hanging himself from a ceiling hook in Sriganganagar city with family members claiming he was apparently upset over actress Jiah Khan's death.
Babu, a fifth class student of Gurunanak Basti in Sriganganagar district, yesterday committed suicide by hanging himself from a ceiling hook in his home, investigating officer (IO) Ramesh Kumar told on phone today.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-boy-commits-suicide/articleshow/20445424.cms



Cheers.

 

[sarang]

General points:

Committing suicide is a crime. If the crime is successfully completed, then the law cannot punish. If the crime is not successful, the attempter is punished. There is talk of changing the law to remove the stain of crime from the deed.

God does not differentiate and blesses all, including asuras who cause immense damage to his devotees and bent on erasing his name.

Media glorifies suicide; jiah was in the news all day, her early successes, relationships, failures to get new assignments and many more unnecessary analyses.

More than the event, I will put the blame on the media for wild and wide and juicy analysis of the event, and 'erudite' analysis of past and future events with no holds barred.

All factors - parents, upbringing, caste equations, jealousy, failed affairs, teasing, are brought up in the discussion whether relevant or not.

I believe in what my guru said: the person contemplating suicide is a brave person, because he knows that the decision is irreversible. But he is forced to this decision because he feels that he is lonely and there is no one to support him and help him out.

Only relatives, friends and people who come in contact on a daily basis can stop the suicides, if they are sensitive enough to read the symptoms.

 

[tbs]

General points:

Committing suicide is a crime. If the crime is successfully completed, then the law cannot punish. If the crime is not successful, the attempter is punished. There is talk of changing the law to remove the stain of crime from the deed.

God does not differentiate and blesses all, including asuras who cause immense damage to his devotees and bent on erasing his name.

Media glorifies suicide; jiah was in the news all day, her early successes, relationships, failures to get new assignments and many more unnecessary analyses.

More than the event, I will put the blame on the media for wild and wide and juicy analysis of the event, and 'erudite' analysis of past and future events with no holds barred.

All factors - parents, upbringing, caste equations, jealousy, failed affairs, teasing, are brought up in the discussion whether relevant or not.

I believe in what my guru said: the person contemplating suicide is a brave person, because he knows that the decision is irreversible. But he is forced to this decision because he feels that he is lonely and there is no one to support him and help him out.

Only relatives, friends and people who come in contact on a daily basis can stop the suicides, if they are sensitive enough to read the symptoms.

hi sarang,

Only relatives, friends and people who come in contact on a daily basis can stop the suicides, if they are sensitive enough to read the symptoms.

well said......

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... I am not sure whether you have read some of my earlier debates, but just in case, I don’t believe in the existence of deities of any kind -- in other words I am what one would call an atheist. Therefore, the above is wasted on me ..........

Dear Prof. Sir,

I am viewing a few wordpress blogs too! Best wishes!!

 

[C RAVI]

Ravi, Even if spirituality is invoked there must be some cogent argument supporting the position articulated. In other words, it is not to be simply asserted. Mrs. RR cited her great grandma ending her life by simply refusing to eat or drink. Is this spiritually justified? Why or why not? Do you have a cogent spiritual framework for when ending one’s own life is spiritually justified? Can someone else assist in cases when it is justified, like physician assisted euthanasia?

Cheers!

Shri Nara,

The case that Shmt. Raji Ram has referred to is that of a 90+ old lady. She must have opted to refuse intake of food to end her "worn out" body which if forced to be activated, would naturally undergo a further process of revival and degradation. And the old lady would have nothing great to be physically mobile and mentally active.

Certainly her decision must have not been out of frustrations in her mundane life, out of sense of guilt of doing something seriously wrong, out of dejection and mental agony due to failures in her accomplishment, out of shame and out of any sort of psychological disorder.

She, at that age must be mentally matured and mentally devoid of any sense of needs, wants, wishes etc.

She must have decided to just lay down, keep thinking of her "Ishta Devatha" as much as her conscious could help her to do that and die peacefully without any need to Medically Manipulate her body that would cause her lots of pain.

Administration of Euthanasia to a person can also be justified where medical intervention can not do substantially good to the patient. In such a case, putting the patient to rest once for all is totally justifiable for the patient and his/her near and dear ones, IMHO.


Shri Nara, my reply below for your specific question - "Do you have a cogent spiritual framework for when ending one’s own life is spiritually justified?"


- Anything related to Spirituality and conscience can not be measured perfectly by rational thinking, questioning, reasoning and concluding. These are private to one's own consciousness. A person in his right state of Mind can know if he/she is doing something that is against his/her moral goodness, belief in spirituality, level of spiritual practices etc..etc..

A person is his/her own judge to see on what grounds he/she is taking his/her own life.

People at their ripe old age, refusing to eat and revive their physical body (as in the case of 90+ old lady, referred by Shmt.RR) and people who are Mahans/Gnyaanis, who have themselves dissolved into spirituality, going for salvation and starvation are all opt to ignore their physical body, in a non-violent manner, having no desires to a live of a mere human.

This is totally different from people who commit suicide out of hatred, frustration, dejection, failures, shame etc..etc, where they undergo lots of complaints within themselves, mental pains and cry a lot to have taken a decision to commit suicide without living a Life. They say sorry to themselves and their near and dear ones (for giving pains and sorrow) before ending their life, which none of us can hear.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Ravi,

My great grandma had lots of sufferings during her long life! She was widowed when she was in end of her teen age,

went through all the ill effects and had a little daughter to be brought up. Later she got her daughter married to a

doctor and the daughter left the world leaving her six children in great grandma's custody! GGma lived ONLY for the

welfare of the grand kids and brought them up with utmost care. She had undergone lot of mental agony because even

when she was in her twenties, middle aged men used to call her 'paatti'! Anyway, that is a long long story!

She HAD decided to leave this world since she had had enough! What is use of living after the very ripe age?

We were all astonished at her will power! She was a great lady in our family! :angel:

 

[renuka]

My advise to all is if you have an elderly person at home who refuses to eat..please get them help.

I repeat...Depression in the elderly is seldom noted and this leads to anorexia.

A person who does not eat needs Intravenous administration of IV and nourishing fluids.

So dont let anyone just die all becos we think its some Upavas/Vrat

 

[renuka]

Certainly her decision must have not been out of frustrations in her mundane life, out of sense of guilt of doing something seriously wrong, out of dejection and mental agony due to failures in her accomplishment, out of shame and out of any sort of psychological disorder.

She, at that age must be mentally matured and mentally devoid of any sense of needs, wants, wishes etc.

She must have decided to just lay down, keep thinking of her "Ishta Devatha" as much as her conscious could help her to do that and die peacefully without any need to Medically Manipulate her body that would cause her lots of pain.

Dear Ravi,


I admire you for being able to come to a diagnosis even without a physiological/psychological autopsy.

I just have only 1 question for you that is:

1)How the heck are you so sure??


Please dont try to classify any form of suicide or death on unproven lines.

Suicide is Suicide..the take home word for the day is Why the person decided to end his/her life.

 

[sarang]

I know two recent instances, mothers of my colleagues, both jains, decided to end their lives voluntarily. They refused to take any medicines, stopped taking food and entered into a vrat. This was accepted by the children, relatives and friends. Many visited to seek blessings. The ladies passed away peacefully after 15 to 20 days. My great grandmother did something similar, and took only 'perumal theertham' for nearly a month. Mindset in those days was conducive to accepting the will of God and individuals.

Elderly people must be allowed to leave the world in the manner they wish.

 

[P.J.]

Suicide is an act of desperation. It is difficult to judge people who are in desperation. To describe them as Cowards or Brave is always disputable.

The bottom line with suicide, it is wrong and there are other ways to get help.