Suicidal tendency among youngsters.

[kunjuppu]

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Dear Prof. Sir,

My great grandma who lived with my eldest uncle till her ripe age of 90+, stopped eating / drinking water on one

fine morning. No one could make her open her mouth. She left this world peacefully after ten days by this fast! :rip:

My family members thought: This is known as 'vadakku iruththal'!

my mother's chithappa, did the same thing, in the late 1970s.

chithappa was a lawyer, who retired from teaching law and took up sanskrit study earnestly. to the extent kanchi mutt (the prev head) bestowed the title vedaasrami on him. apparently this is a highly coveted title. his commentaries on the vedas are apparently well thought of in certain academic circles.

at once point in life in his 80s, he decided that the life purpose was completed. so he stopped eating and wasted away. dont remember how long it took him to die, but i remember mom telling me that this was a planned death. nobody in the family thought much of it. dont know if it was due to fear, stigma or reverence..

 

[renuka]

Elderly people must be allowed to leave the world in the manner they wish.

Dear Sarang ji,

If what you say is acceptable then I do not see any problem if a youngster decides to jump of a cliff screaming the name of his/her Ishta Devata!

What if an elderly wants to set himself/herself on fire??

Will that be acceptable?

After all death is not only for the aged but also for even an infant.

I disagree that one should be left to die...get the person treated and pay them some attention.

 

[sangom]

Dear Ravi,

My great grandma had lots of sufferings during her long life! She was widowed when she was in end of her teen age,

went through all the ill effects and had a little daughter to be brought up. Later she got her daughter married to a

doctor and the daughter left the world leaving her six children in great grandma's custody! GGma lived ONLY for the

welfare of the grand kids and brought them up with utmost care. She had undergone lot of mental agony because even

when she was in her twenties, middle aged men used to call her 'paatti'! Anyway, that is a long long story!

She HAD decided to leave this world since she had had enough! What is use of living after the very ripe age?

We were all astonished at her will power! She was a great lady in our family! :angel:

There is no religious sanction in our religion at least, for suicide; it is classified under "durmaranam" and some special & extra rites have to be performed according to the SAStras to ensure the RIP of the deceased AtmA.

I feel no human being wishes to end this life. Some people may say so temporarily, out of some extreme emotion, but the mood will definitely change after just a few minutes.

The case of RR's Ggma seems intriguing to me. Most probably, that venerable old lady did not get any affection or regard from her six grandchildren as time passed and that was the reason for her extreme step. We tabras talk a lot very wisely but there is a great lot of hypocrisy in most of us. Only change that has happened is that the new generation girls are honest in calling their in-laws as Rahu-Ketu or garbage etc., but their own parents will not be able to avoid the same status if they happen to live beyond their expected "expiry dates"; this will apply to us also!!

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi,

My great grandma had lots of sufferings during her long life! She was widowed when she was in end of her teen age,

went through all the ill effects and had a little daughter to be brought up. Later she got her daughter married to a

doctor and the daughter left the world leaving her six children in great grandma's custody! GGma lived ONLY for the

welfare of the grand kids and brought them up with utmost care. She had undergone lot of mental agony because even

when she was in her twenties, middle aged men used to call her 'paatti'! Anyway, that is a long long story!

She HAD decided to leave this world since she had had enough! What is use of living after the very ripe age?

We were all astonished at her will power! She was a great lady in our family! :angel:

Shmt. Raji Ram,

Its really painful to know what sort of issues she underwent in her life all along!!

I didn't say that she must have not been having any wishes, expecting well beings of her family members, pains, ambitions in her life so far. What I meant to say is, "at her ripe old age" I repeat, "at her ripe old age" of 90+ when she became too week and her body has mostly worn out, she must have thought of enough of this life.

At this point of time in her ripe old age, she must have not been having any special wishes, needs, wants, desires, ambition etc..etc. as per priorities to be accomplished.

Basically at this age people tend to eat too little and some times skip a meal too.Their health become too fragile, they lose appetite and become kind of detached from the world around themselves.

Thus, I said, at this age of hers at 90+, in her fragile state, she must have refused to eat even that too little that she was consuming, reluctantly, having no desire to live.

She must have been willing to get rid of life without any complaints related to present event.


My great maternal grandfather did the same when he was 94 years old!. He lost the possibility to be active, the energy to talk, to walk etc, lost his appetite almost totally and remained lying on the bed. He was fed with semi solid food for few month. Later he gradually started refusing to eat that little too and in couple of days slept for ever!

 

[prasad1]

There is no religious sanction in our religion at least, for suicide; it is classified under "durmaranam" and some special & extra rites have to be performed according to the SAStras to ensure the RIP of the deceased AtmA.

I feel no human being wishes to end this life. Some people may say so temporarily, out of some extreme emotion, but the mood will definitely change after just a few minutes.

The case of RR's Ggma seems intriguing to me. Most probably, that venerable old lady did not get any affection or regard from her six grandchildren as time passed and that was the reason for her extreme step. We tabras talk a lot very wisely but there is a great lot of hypocrisy in most of us. Only change that has happened is that the new generation girls are honest in calling their in-laws as Rahu-Ketu or garbage etc., but their own parents will not be able to avoid the same status if they happen to live beyond their expected "expiry dates"; this will apply to us also!!

Yes.

 

[Nara]

Ravi,

My first question was very specific, i.e. whether the way Mrs. RR's GGma died was spiritually justified. Your response, if I may say so, is a little muddled. What motivated her can at best be a conjecture. What if your speculations are false, would you then say it was not spiritually justified?

What if he was only 40+ but mentally matured and devoid of needs and wants?

What if he was 90+ but burning with desire for all sorts of needs and wants?

What if he was an atheist and didn't care for any ishta or whatever devatha?

What if he is 40+ and terminally ill and has only 3 months of hellish life to live?

What you call spirituality is not the only concept that cannot be precisely measured, there are many others. Life is full of ethically ambiguous situations. That does not mean we cannot think about them, understand the complexity and draw broad lessons for dealing with difficult situation if and when they arise in our lives. It is in this spirit I would like to examine the conditions under which suicide is morally justifiable and must be legal so that people can end their lives under those conditions in relative comfort with minimum of suffering instead of starving to death.

Cheers!

 

[P.J.]

Psychotherapist Lynne Rosen and her partner, John Littig, famous for hosting their self-help radio show “The Pursuit of Happiness,” were found dead in their Park Slope apartment on Monday. The couple had suffocated themselves with plastic bags, The Post reported.

Ms. Rosen and Mr. Littig’s radio show, which aired monthly, offered advice to listeners on how to lead more productive and fulfilling lives. In a show from February, they urged one caller to fight back in her battle against depression.

Beloved Brooklyn Couple Who Hosted ?Pursuit of Happiness? Radio Show Found Dead in Apparent Double Suicide | Observer

If these Happiness Gurus end life like this, what we can draw from our Indian young students ending their life after result?

So even the most knowledgeable persons can go to this extreme step, no wonder our old people when suffering due to illness wanted to end their life without eating.

When i was young, probably in 1950 or so, i saw one of my distant relative suffering from Kidney failure ( in those days medical facility was not advanced to give Dialysis , he was begging to a doctor to give an injection to end his life.

Acute medical condition may push patients to end their life.

 

[C RAVI]

Ravi,

My first question was very specific, i.e. whether the way Mrs. RR's GGma died was spiritually justified. Your response, if I may say so, is a little muddled. What motivated her can at best be a conjecture. What if your speculations are false, would you then say it was not spiritually justified?

What if he was only 40+ but mentally matured and devoid of needs and wants?

What if he was 90+ but burning with desire for all sorts of needs and wants?

What if he was an atheist and didn't care for any ishta or whatever devatha?

What if he is 40+ and terminally ill and has only 3 months of hellish life to live?

What you call spirituality is not the only concept that cannot be precisely measured, there are many others. Life is full of ethically ambiguous situations. That does not mean we cannot think about them, understand the complexity and draw broad lessons for dealing with difficult situation if and when they arise in our lives. It is in this spirit I would like to examine the conditions under which suicide is morally justifiable and must be legal so that people can end their lives under those conditions in relative comfort with minimum of suffering instead of starving to death.

Cheers!

Shri Nara,

Using spiritual justification, I pointed out only two types of people who opts for self withdrawal.


1) People at ripe old age of 90+ or I can say even 80+ who could sense that their physical body is worn out and not willing to keep struggling with it as that not gonna do any good to the person himself/herself and his/her near and dear ones.


2) Mahans/Gnyaanis, who gained natural inclinations towards dissolving themselves into spirituality and go free towards salvation and withdrawal.


The bottom line is, any one who naturally could inclined towards withdrawal and go for fasting to end their life are not same as those who commit suicide with lots of bitterness, or shame, or complaints, or blames, or failures, or due to isolation having been avoided by others, etc..etc..

And, for your concluding para, the below is the excerpt from my previous post, addressed to you.

Shri Nara,

Administration of Euthanasia to a person can also be justified where medical intervention can not do substantially good to the patient. In such a case, putting the patient to rest once for all is totally justifiable for the patient and his/her near and dear ones, IMHO.


Shri Nara, my reply below for your specific question - "Do you have a cogent spiritual framework for when ending one’s own life is spiritually justified?"


- Anything related to Spirituality and conscience can not be measured perfectly by rational thinking, questioning, reasoning and concluding. These are private to one's own consciousness. A person in his right state of Mind can know if he/she is doing something that is against his/her moral goodness, belief in spirituality, level of spiritual practices etc..etc..

A person is his/her own judge to see on what grounds he/she is taking his/her own life.

Only one's conscience can let one self know as on what grounds one is killing one self, unmindful of one's life and the psychological impacts that it can impose on one's near and dear ones.

Regarding Atheists -

It doesn't matter if a person is theists or atheists as long as one is not full of bitterness of some sort and end his/her life out of dejection, having lots of complaints, leaving one self into deep sorrow at the moment of committing suicide and leaving the near and dear ones in devastating state and leaving them hating the person who committed suicide that has impacted them in varying negatively degrees as well.

 

[sarang]

Jains still follow these practices sanctioned by their faith and society. It is not viewed as suicide. Your comparing it with sudden ending of life for failures in life or for some loss is not correct.

Many jains, both men and women, after their children are settled, just leave home without leaving a contact address, and go on a yatra by walking, carrying practically nothing. You can see them walking in small groups in white clothes, with a stick and a small bundle.

I do approve if someone takes a vow to fast and end his/her life for no other reason except their salvation.

You are confusing this with mundane sick persons and suicidals.

Dear Sarang ji,

If what you say is acceptable then I do not see any problem if a youngster decides to jump of a cliff screaming the name of his/her Ishta Devata!

What if an elderly wants to set himself/herself on fire??

Will that be acceptable?

After all death is not only for the aged but also for even an infant.

I disagree that one should be left to die...get the person treated and pay them some attention.

 

[Raji Ram]

IMHO, those who kill themselves in young age are 'brave cowards' - oxymoron!!

They are brave enough to die but coward enough not to face problems - financial, mental or physical!

Probably those who had enough of happiness and sorrow in a very long life span, the vairAgyam to leave

this world helps!

P.S: If my GGma was in Sing Chennai now, she would still be kept in ventilator, living!! :thumb:

 

[Nara]

It is indeed heartbreaking to see young healthy kids commit suicide for whatever reason. But this, IMO, does not rank high among the many problems that plague the society.

The larger question is, what mitigating circumstances provide moral justification for suicide. I am unconvinced that age can be a factor, or whether the person is a mahan or gyani. This is so even from the so called spirituality POV. Lord Sri Krishna says in BG that these Mahans and Gyanis must set an example for ordinary folks to follow. What sort of an example this so called mahan or gyani sets if he decides one fine day to starve to death.

To me, minimizing unmitigatable agony and suffering must be a morally defensible reason for anyone to take his/her own life, whether gyani or fool, whether 80+ or 20+, and it is our duty to make it easy for such individuals to end their lives with as little agony and suffering as possible. What is to be gained by forcing a young person afflicted with terminal illness to live out his/her remaining days in pain and agony.

My aunt had a daughter more than 40 years ago, she was born with an extreme case of cerebral palsy, the girl never got out of lying position in her entire miserable life. She had to be cleaned, clothed and fed all her wretched life. She defecated on the rubber sheet in which she lay and spent her days. She lived more than 40 years and every freaking day was a living hell for my aunt. The girl was less than an docile animal.

The day she died was the day of liberation for my aunt. She should have been liberated 40 years ago by euthanizing this miserable child, so much suffering by both the mother and child could have been avoided. But no, she was told by her elders this is karma and had to be endured by both the mother and the daughter. The real moral thing was to have let the baby die in peace.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prof. Sir,

In our village, stray dogs were caught periodically and killed by hammering on their heads! :shocked:

My dad used to feel bad by this method and used to tell us that those sick and suffering dogs

should be given good food and some poison at the end to let them have a more peaceful death!

The human sufferings are branded as 'karmA' and continued on earth! Indeed sad! :sad:

 

[C RAVI]

My aunt had a daughter more than 40 years ago, she was born with an extreme case of cerebral palsy, the girl never got out of lying position in her entire miserable life. She had to be cleaned, clothed and fed all her wretched life. She defecated on the rubber sheet in which she lay and spent her days. She lived more than 40 years and every freaking day was a living hell for my aunt. The girl was less than an docile animal.

The day she died was the day of liberation for my aunt. She should have been liberated 40 years ago by euthanizing this miserable child, so much suffering by both the mother and child could have been avoided. But no, she was told by her elders this is karma and had to be endured by both the mother and the daughter. The real moral thing was to have let the baby die in peace.

Shri Nara,

Knowing such cases, pains me a lot. I can understand the suffering your aunt and her bed ridden daughter had for more than 40 years.

As far as I am concerned, I would support administration of Euthanasia to such terminally ill patents, the illness that is causing terrible pains to the patient and patient's near and dear one and has NIL scope for revival to normalcy. In the name of Karma, I would not wish the patient and the person attending to patient to undergo hell.

As per Karma Theory, our karma is to protect and care our Physical Body and we do care seeking Medical intervention. When the physical body itself has collapsed to the extent of having no scope and no hope to revive and be mobile and leading to hell lots of suffering every day-in and day-out, I would consider that extinguishing such a useless Physical Body is our Responsibility and to whole heartedly pray for the Soul that gonna leave this horrific body.

 

[sangom]

Psychotherapist Lynne Rosen and her partner, John Littig, famous for hosting their self-help radio show “The Pursuit of Happiness,” were found dead in their Park Slope apartment on Monday. The couple had suffocated themselves with plastic bags, The Post reported.

Ms. Rosen and Mr. Littig’s radio show, which aired monthly, offered advice to listeners on how to lead more productive and fulfilling lives. In a show from February, they urged one caller to fight back in her battle against depression.

Beloved Brooklyn Couple Who Hosted ?Pursuit of Happiness? Radio Show Found Dead in Apparent Double Suicide | Observer

If these Happiness Gurus end life like this, what we can draw from our Indian young students ending their life after result?

So even the most knowledgeable persons can go to this extreme step, no wonder our old people when suffering due to illness wanted to end their life without eating.

When i was young, probably in 1950 or so, i saw one of my distant relative suffering from Kidney failure ( in those days medical facility was not advanced to give Dialysis , he was begging to a doctor to give an injection to end his life.

Acute medical condition may push patients to end their life.

Dear PJ,

It is a fairly commonplace knowledge that psychologists/psychiatrists/persons who have to associate with their close relatives - parent, sibling of the same sex, etc. - are more prone to become mental cases themselves. This may not find support from the so-called "learned papers, studies, theses, etc.

The Doctor couple would most certainly have become psychic cases themselves and ended up their lives in a moment of insane decision. This is what I think.

 

[sangom]

Shri Nara,

Knowing such cases, pains me a lot. I can understand the suffering your aunt and her bed ridden daughter had for more than 40 years.

As far as I am concerned, I would support administration of Euthanasia to such terminally ill patents, the illness that is causing terrible pains to the patient and patient's near and dear one and has NIL scope for revival to normalcy. In the name of Karma, I would not wish the patient and the person attending to patient to undergo hell.

As per Karma Theory, our karma is to protect and care our Physical Body and we do care seeking Medical intervention. When the physical body itself has collapsed to the extent of having no scope and no hope to revive and be mobile and leading to hell lots of suffering every day-in and day-out, I would consider that extinguishing such a useless Physical Body is our Responsibility and to whole heartedly pray for the Soul that gonna leave this horrific body.

Dear Shri Ravi,

While the mother (Shri Nara's aunt, in this case) is free to ask for euthanasia for her child, if law permits it and so on, it is my firm belief that Karma has its own myriad inscrutable ways to make one pay for his/her actions, however much we try to escape from it. It is famously said that Ramana Maharshi suffered from stomach cancer and had to suffer great pain. In the present case, Fate was kind enough not to give such pain to the mother herself, but, it only made her life a hell, all the same. Considering the fact that at least after 40 years' ordeal the mother had some kind of deliverance, it was correct to bear out the results of her Karma by tending to that daughter, I consider.

 

[Raji Ram]

I expected Sangom Sir to give the reason as 'karmA'! :decision:

 

[sangom]

I expected Sangom Sir to give the reason as 'karmA'! :decision:

Why? Not clear! Anyway she (the girl's mother) was "kee-mA" (की माँ = माँने की).

 

[C RAVI]

I expected Sangom Sir to give the reason as 'karmA'! :decision:

Shmt. Raji Ram,

When we believe in Karma we got to evaluate and figure out the multiple and complex phenomena associated with Karma.

As Shri Sangom said, the bed ridden daughter and her mother could pay off their Karma in natural course of time. They together bore the pains without hurting and leaving each other on their own will and as such may not have to suffer any more like this in their next birth. Nothing pending to be carried forward, most probably.

 

[PANCHANATHAM CHANDRASEKAR]

Pray to the almighty to give everybody peace in their life. That's all i can pray.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Sangom Sir and Ravi,

I too believe in KarmA theory and have written it several times here in our forum.

I thank God every day for making it peaceful! ray2: . . . :hail:

 

[rishikesan]

Dear All, In all such cases, the person is lifeless for all purposes . Still there are exceptionally kind , close relatives , who do regularly take care till the end comes. But in these days, can we expect such compassion & 24/7 service even to their own blood relatives? In this context, if there is a way in the form of Euthanasia, to honourably liberate the soul, with the specific approval of the parents or whoever is involved ( legally) in writing, and If there is no specific procedure uptill now , it is time to make it practable, for the mere reason---as to why anyone, including the next of kin & directly involved.

Rishikesan

 

[Nara]

....As far as I am concerned, I would support administration of Euthanasia to such terminally ill patents, the illness that is causing terrible pains to the patient and patient's near and dear one and has NIL scope for revival to normalcy. In the name of Karma, I would not wish the patient and the person attending to patient to undergo hell.

It is relatively easy to feel empathy when a situation gets personal. A Republican US senator opposed to gay marriage suddenly changed his mind after his son came out as gay -- he wanted his son also to enjoy the joys of a loving marriage. But thoughtful people must be able to feel empathy even in abstract situations.

Physician assisted euthanasia is legal in several places. They have gained experience on how to safeguard against misuse. When it comes to public policy spirituality, karma theory, etc., can play no role at all, it has to be based on basic moral principles that everyone, or at least a super majority can agree on.

 

[ShivKC]

My aunt had a daughter more than 40 years ago, she was born with an extreme case of cerebral palsy, the girl never got out of lying position in her entire miserable life. She had to be cleaned, clothed and fed all her wretched life. She defecated on the rubber sheet in which she lay and spent her days. She lived more than 40 years and every freaking day was a living hell for my aunt. The girl was less than an docile animal.

The day she died was the day of liberation for my aunt. She should have been liberated 40 years ago by euthanizing this miserable child, so much suffering by both the mother and child could have been avoided. But no, she was told by her elders this is karma and had to be endured by both the mother and the daughter. The real moral thing was to have let the baby die in peace.

Pardon me for toeing towards Godwins law.

Not long , but sixty years ago, just another man , called as author of Mein Kampf who had similar thought, felt the same sympathy towards his country men .

he wondered why his fellow country mens tax money are getting spent towards the useless unproductive
senile/handicapped/mentally retarded/bedridden citizens.. he felt sympathy towards the care takers of them, which is a genuine concern of the man of slim mustache... he wondered why the care takers of those senile/handicapped were wasting their useful/fruitful time in taking care of those useless unproductive vegetating human beings..

yeh.. he found an easy way out.Alas!!. GAS em ALL !!!. HE DID IT 60 years ago!!..

Taking such stands, would lead to this kind of extremes too. All one got to do, read the above cited incidence thrice get in to the shoes and replace the word AUNT with MOTHER/DAUGHTER and ponder it vis-a-vis LIBERATION ... . Thats one reason, the society is taking a conservative stand, which also goes in line with the survival norms of taking a root mean square median path, as they call in mathematical terms

PS: welcome back .. cant stop humming Gloria Gaynor I will survive - Gloria Gaynor - YouTube

 

[Govinda]

Taking such stands, would lead to this kind of extremes too. All one got to do, read the above cited incidence thrice get in to the shoes and replace the word AUNT with MOTHER/DAUGHTER and ponder it vis-a-vis LIBERATION ... . Thats one reason, the society is taking a conservative stand, which also goes in line with the survival norms of taking a root mean square median path, as they call in mathematical terms

PS: welcome back .. cant stop humming Gloria Gaynor I will survive - Gloria Gaynor - YouTube

Shiva,

Good post. People may help those underprivileged out of love, humanity, sincerity. But, there is a background to all these.

That AUNT or MOTHER would have freaked out during the pregnancy - gorged on restricted foods or unhealthy foods or didnt take extreme care. They become partners in crime, when the child has problems [except the surgical errors]

That Father/Pastor would have been self-driven (money or power or status), never ever spent 'QUALITY' time with the kids or never fed healthy foods, then he becomes partners-in-crime with the son for going out of norms.

They can't fix anything after that, so KARMA chases them and never let them go scot free. Laws, peoples choices, situations change with the KARMA

Foreseers should try to be honest everytime to avoid errors, or atleast fix their errors early. Fixing the laws is for the one-time lifers not for after-lifers!

P.S: This is true for every Mother and Father, take right decisions in life, for a healthy future, not for monetary future!