The god fallacy

[Mayuram V.Sankaran]

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Here are more excerpts from the same source, “Vedic Concept of God” by Vidyanand Saraswati:

Part II : The Attributes of God:

“Strictly speaking, God is indefinable because a complete knowledge of Him is difficult to acquire”;

“The ancient sages chose what in logic is called the ‘differentia’ of God – God ‘is’ (‘sat’) as are ‘souls’ and ‘matter’. He knows (‘chit’) as ‘souls’ know. But He is ‘Satchitanand’ (existence, knowledge and bliss), which brings out the points of similarity and differences”;

“The most conspicuous qualities of God are ‘knowledge’, ‘power’ and ‘love’ – out of love for the souls, He has created the world, established laws and helps all who seek to attain perfection”;

“God is only one, though the wise call Him by different names – He is called Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh, according as he is creating, preserving and withdrawing the whole universe”;

“There are some who make a distinction between ‘Brahma’ and ‘Ishwara’ – for them while Brahma is the transcendental ground and abyss of everything, Ishwara is the personal God. However, the reality is they are one and the same – Brahma is Ishwara when the Absolute with a creative urge is brought into a closer relationship with the world”;

“God is not embodied – the Universal Spirit being immanent in every particle does not need any material organs for existence and action and, therefore, retains its eternal freedom and purity. Devoid of form He rules the world in the same way that the soul, which is also formless, rules the body and the sense organs from within”;

“God does not stand aside from the world leaving us free to make or mar ourselves. Whenever by abuse of power and freedom, unrighteousness increases and the world gets into a rut, He extends His help by manifesting Himself. Processes of birth and incarnation, which imply limitation, do not apply to Him. By manifestation at a particular time and place, it is meant that an extraordinary person with unusual spiritual qualities, charity and insight arises in the world, who starts a spiritual and social upheaval to protect the good, destroy the wicked and establish righteousness in the world”;

“God is omniscient, but His knowledge is not dependent on any sense organs. Being infinite, eternal and all pervading, He knows all that a man thinks and does. He knows our tendencies and errors too”;

“God is all omnipotent and so, notwithstanding any laws, He is competent to accomplish things which we cannot even imagine”;

“He has not only the attributes of perfect justice and impartiality, but also, mercy.”

More excerpts from the same source will follow in Part III.

 

[Mayuram V.Sankaran]

Further excerpts from the source, "Vedic Concept of God" by Vidyanand Saraswati:

Part III: The Paradox:

The following quote is often attributed to Buddha in our country: “How can it be that God would make a world and keep it miserable? Since if all powerful, He leaves it so, He is not good and if not all powerful, He is not God!”

“God is said to be omnipotent because there are no external limits to His powers. His being Almighty means that he can accomplish the work of creation, preservation and dissolution and also dispense equitable justice to the souls with inherent power, without seeking external help. He is not a despot, but a constitutional head. He is not above law and cannot subvert the constitution framed by Him. He is not a magician who can stop the sun in its course or stay the bullet in its march. He cannot liquidate Himself and create another God as is successor. In short, God cannot do anything in violation of the laws of nature or against His own nature or what is incompatible with His essential attributes. But all these do not limit His omnipotence. The rule of law is the mind and will of God and, therefore, cannot be regarded as a limitation on His power”;

“Absolutism is unable to account for the diversity in the universe and the lapse of the perfect into imperfect. The problem is solved if we attribute diversity not to God, but to the souls which are free to act and ‘prakriti’, which is amenable to change, though both work under the constitution framed by God”;

“Existence cannot proceed from non-existence. If a ‘being’ can come out of a ‘non-being’, the search for a ‘cause’ would be useless. Thus, God cannot create the world out of nothing. If that were possible, everything could have been made out of anything. This is obvious from the fact that the product is not different from the material out of which it has been made. From our everyday experience, we know that curd, ornaments and jugs can only be produced from milk, gold and clay respectively. Curd cannot be made from gold, clay, etc. But if things can be produced without any pre-existing substance, then anything is possible. If nothing were to be the cause of something, then who would have toiled to secure the material for the desired object? The farmer could then get crops without seeds, the potter jars without clay and the weaver cloth without threads and so forth. No one need make any efforts. If I want a house and the house can come out of nothing, where is the need of baking bricks and securing the rest of the building material? Thus, ‘being’ out of ‘non-being’ and ‘existence’ out of ‘non-existence’ belongs to the domain of magic and magic is entirely ‘out of court’ in this matter-of-fact world”;

“In creation the world is developed in name and form, while it is in undeveloped state in dissolution. Creation is the expression in the plane of space and time of what already exists in God. At the end of each world-period (‘kalpa’), God takes back the world, that is, the material world (‘vikriti’) becomes merged in non-distinct ‘prakriti’. The ‘souls’ also lie in deep slumber during that period, but as the consequences of their deeds are not exhausted, they enter into embodied existence as soon as God sends forth a new material world”;

“In dissolution, which occurs at the end of each world-period, when Brahman is said to be in a causal state, the distinction of names and forms disappear. Matter becomes unmanifested and individual souls are not attached to bodies and their intelligence is in a state of contraction. Even then Brahman contains within Himself matter and souls in a seed condition. When owing to an act of volition on the part of Brahman, dissolution is succeeded by creation, unmanifested matter becomes gross and manifested and the souls enter into connection with material bodies corresponding to their accumulated merits and demerits.”

One more part to follow in the concluding reply thread.

 

[Mayuram V.Sankaran]

The last set of excerpts from "Vedic Concept of God" by Vidyanand Saraswati:

Part IV: God as just and benevolent, but not intrusive:


“Every view of God represents some aspect or other of the relation of the human to the divine spirit. The different representations do not tell us about what God is in Himself, but only what He is to us. Each method of approach, each mode of address answers to some mood of the human mind. God has been looked upon as the father or as the mother. However, God is more than the father who protects or the mother who is all merciful. He is more than the law that commands, the judge that condemns or the love that constrains. In His love, He combines the opposite virtues of justice and mercy. Punishment is given with the purpose of restraining a man form committing a sin and thereby save him from consequent suffering. The merciful wants to encourage our strong points and discourage whatever our weaknesses are. The encouragement and the discouragement aim at our betterment. It is through pain that He makes us discard our weaknesses and it is through pleasure that He strengthens our goodness. The right attitude of life would be to apprehend the values of pain and pleasure”;


“When the object of both – justice and mercy – is to rescue all from sin and consequent suffering, how can justice and mercy be mutually contradictory? As a matter of fact, the mercy of God lies in His being just. An unduly forgiving God can turn tyrannous. His mercies, if they are simply whims, will lack a uniform reliable rule to guide their dispensation. The very backbone of morality, that is, the faith that the good that we do is properly required and that the evil that we do is adequately punished, will be broken if we succumb to the presumption that rewards and punishments are regulated not by the ‘deserts’ of the recipient, but by the whimsical will of the judge. Justice without a code is, therefore, an untenable proposition even in the limited affairs of human life”;
“God is merciful in the sense that He provides for the souls all sorts of physical material with which to work while they live and the bare necessities of life. He would not be God if he were capricious in the dispensation of His gifts. In adding to the common fund of blessings, additional joys and sorrows for the individuals, commensurate with their actions, God is perfectly justified”;


“The atheist argues that there is no God. If there is a God and He has the qualities of compassion for His creation, then there would be no suffering. A God who is all blissful and who delights in the suffering of creatures is no God at all. If He were benevolent, then evil would be unthinkable. In the beginning, when there was no merit or demerit, why did He not create a world that is free from misery or suffering?”


“The atheist argues further: In fact, our endeavour, both in our private and public life, is based on the presumption “as you sow, so shall you reap”. But we have seen people suffering for their virtues and flourishing for their evils. He who inflicts such varying lots on His creatures is both cruel and unjust. When we think of our encounters with disease and death, we are inclined to believe that we are in the hands of chance and that there is no Providence that guides and leads us onward. There is no rational process in the world, no dialectic of reality. We live in a world of universal caprice. Belief in God is possible only when we draw a veil over the agony and suffering of the world. Individual beings in the world are found endowed with different amounts of knowledge, power, pleasure, pain, etc. This inequality is to a great extent determined by the differences in the conditions, capacities and susceptibilities characterizing different individuals from the very beginning. This is inconsistent with our idea of justice”;


“The answers to the questions posed by the atheists are as follows:

These objections cannot be validly held. Such contradictions and anomalies arise when we take a narrow view of life. Some seeds that we sow today sprout by next morning. Some take months to sprout, grow, flower and bear fruits and still others take years to do so. As a matter of fact, our present life is not the only life where we are sowing and reaping. When we accept the principle of eternity of soul and the continuity of life, it becomes clear that our prosperity or poverty, our success or failure, do not depend entirely on what we do today. Our present is the resultant of our past and again with our accomplishments in the present we shall be moving to the next life. Whatever we have done in the past is unalterable. It has entered into us and become a part of our existence. Destiny is nothing but what inevitably happens as a result of our efforts already put forth”;


“The world is the scene of an active struggle between good and evil in which God is deeply interested. As God is completely good and His love is boundless, He pours out His love in helping man to resist all that makes for error, ugliness and evil. But the world consists of active, choosing individuals, who can be influenced, but not controlled. God is not a dictator. When the world consists of free spirits, co-existent with God, evil is possible, nay, probable. If there is to be an active willing of the ideas of truth, beauty and goodness, then their opposites of error, ugliness and evil are positive tendencies which we have to resist. God acts with peculiar delicacy in regard to human beings. He woos our consent, but never compels. He never resorts to the use of force. He does not transgress the rule of law and justice and show any special favour to his devotees”;


“Truly speaking, in the beginning, if God had created a world of automata, then there would have been no evil. God could have eliminated evil, if He had so wished, by denying the individual souls 'freedom of choice;. But the soul has its own independent entity with freedom of choice as one of the essential characteristics. If the world is generated and operated like a machine, then the individual soul has no meaning as it is not free. If it is not free, then it is not capable of creative activity at its own level. Without creative freedom, mankind could not have produced either a paradise or a hell or both as we witness today. Evil is therefore there because we abuse our freedom and God permits such evil because he does not interfere with human choice. That makes everyone accountable for his actions. The ‘past’ and ‘present’ as well as the ‘future’ are applicable only to the individual souls and not to the all pervading and formless universal spirit called Brahman.”
.
I think that I have given enough excerpts from the source mentioned above without invoking the wrath of the copyright holder. The intent is to show that there are scholars in the country who are not only well-versed on the subject, but also, eminently readable!

 

[Nara]

Dear MVS,

As I expected the excerpts you are posting are nothing more than the same old assertions that have been presented time and time again. They are devoid of any rhyme or reason or logic, or, any trace of the much reviled verifiable evidence. Anything that has been asserted without any tangible evidence can also be asserted with regard to an imagined an invisible pink unicorn.

Let us take for instance the following:

"Life is eternal; it inheres in the soul";

"We have thus three eternal categories -- God, matter and souls. However, God is the governor and guide of matter and soul";

Even from this cited text let us take just one small part, namely, "Life is eternal". There is absolutely no basis for Shri Vidyanand Saraswati to claim this to be fact, it is nothing more than a delusion, a fallacy.

Cheers!

 

[Mayuram V.Sankaran]

I read a quote somewhere before that said:

God listens to our prayers but sometimes the answer to our prayer is No.

I agree with you. When we address God as good, truth, beauty, love, and so forth, we in fact pledge to inculcate these ethical values in our lives.

To quote Vidyanand Saraswati, from the "Vedic Concept of God":

"Prayer does not mean verbal, formal or mechanical repetition of words. To call Him 'kind and merciful' while we continue to be 'cruel' to others, would be a mockery in prayer. To address Him as 'Truth' while we adhere to 'falsehood' would not fair to the concept of prayer."

To quote Dr. S. Radhakrishnan, our former President:

"Salvation is attained not so much by placating God as transforming our being, by achieving a certain quality and harmony of the passions through self-discipline."

To quote from Rabindra Nath Tagore:

"Leave this chanting, singing and counting of beads. Whom does thou worship in the lonely dark corner of a temple with all the doors shut? Open thine eyes and see thy God is not before thee. He is there where the tiller is tilling the hard ground and where the path-maker is breaking the stones. He is with them in sun and shower and His garment is covered with dust. Put off thy holy mantle and even like Him come down on dusty soil. Deliverance? Where is the deliverance to be found? Our master Himself has joyfully taken upon Him the bonds of creation. He is bound with us all forever. Come out of thy meditation and meet Him and stand by Him in toil and in sweat of thy brow."

Surely God Helps those who help themselves!

 

[Mayuram V.Sankaran]

Dear MVS,

As I expected the excerpts you are posting are nothing more than the same old assertions that have been presented time and time again. They are devoid of any rhyme or reason or logic, or, any trace of the much reviled verifiable evidence. Anything that has been asserted without any tangible evidence can also be asserted with regard to an imagined an invisible pink unicorn.

Let us take for instance the following:

Even from this cited text let us take just one small part, namely, "Life is eternal". There is absolutely no basis for Shri Vidyanand Saraswati to claim this to be fact, it is nothing more than a delusion, a fallacy.

Cheers!

Narayani, I have just looked up about you.

What I have attempted are just excerpts, which in the nature of things cannot reflect all that is contained in 170 and odd pages of the book, "Vedic Concept of God" by Vidyanand Saraswati. You must read the book in whole and also, go to its sources in order to understand the contents thereof better.

However, in parting I must add that you seem to be the individual soul that has lost its way and in need of enlightenment.

 

[Nara]

Narayani, I have just looked up about you.

What I have attempted are just excerpts, which in the nature of things cannot reflect all that is contained in 170 and odd pages of the book, "Vedic Concept of God" by Vidyanand Saraswati. You must read the book in whole and also, go to its sources in order to understand the contents thereof better.

However, in parting I must add that you seem to be the individual soul that has lost its way and in need of enlightenment.

Dear MVS, I appreciate your concern for my enlightment, but I think your concern is unwarrented, I am sure I am on the right path.

The excerpts you have posted so far reveals more than adequately that Shri Vidyanand Saraswati is peddling the same old stuff I have heard and read from a hundred other sources. Please believe me, I am not someone who suddenly decided to reject faith, I was never a second to anyone when it came to faith in the Vedas and how it was interepreted by SV acharyas. It was a painful separation after years of introspection. But I must say, after freeing myself from this irrational faith system I feel liberated. Hope one day you also are able to free yourself and taste this freedom.

Cheers!

 

[S.Ramanathan]

Dear Mam,

You have mentioned that God listens to our prayers but sometimes the answer to our prayer is No.

Mom. it is absolutely correct. It depends upon our karma and the the depth of our prayers and the prayer should be for a genuine reason. My wife met with a fire accident in 1998 with 55% burns. I admitted her in a very good hospital in chennai. When he started his treatment I applied to kumudam asking him to publish in the magazine in tamil calling for "koootuprarthanai." They also published mentioning a date and time for prayer for the recovery of my wife. It worked and slowly my wife got back life, etc.. In the same hospital some with less than 50% burns admitted in her next bed died before her eyes.



we have to do our duty and leave it to god for evaluation.


S. Ramanathan

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri S. Ramanathan, First, let me wish you, your wife, and your family long, healthy, life filled with all the joy life can offer.

.... It depends upon our karma and the the depth of our prayers and the prayer should be for a genuine reason. My wife met with a fire accident in 1998 with 55% burns. I admitted her in a very good hospital in chennai. When he started his treatment I applied to kumudam asking him to publish in the magazine in tamil calling for "koootuprarthanai." They also published mentioning a date and time for prayer for the recovery of my wife. It worked and slowly my wife got back life, etc.. In the same hospital some with less than 50% burns admitted in her next bed died before her eyes.

I think even the most vocal theists in this forum will feel embarrassed to admit their God is one you have described above.

If the reasons are genuine as you say, why is your God waiting for some deep and sincere prayer? Why did he not prevent the fire accident in the first place? I know, you are going to say Karma, but, if so, how come he intervened to save the life of just your wife (may she live a very long and happy life) but let the others with even less severe burns die, just because you prayed and they did not?

If a God really exists, I am sure he will not be such a narcissistic sadist as those who believe in the power of prayer make him out to be.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Yamaka

India is no more under the grip of false orthodoxy as you believe. If you really believe this, I am really surprised.

If India, the land of Gods, Spirits, Ghosts and Religions is continuously under the grip of Orthodoxy of the past traditions, fear and superstitions, you can not find absolute corruption dancing on her head.


Indian is suffering because people in power and authority have gone against the sense of righteousness and chastity. Have gone against the principles of "Live and let Live". Because these people have developed belief in living a realistic life of accomplishment by hook or crook, accepting the natural qualities of Genes - "The Fittest Survive" and ignoring their consciousness, that can clearly show them how wrong are they. They are those who wants to make fast bucks, before they die and live a luxurious life during the ONLY LIFE of the present, doesn't matter whom and how many people they are leaving with pains and sufferings, in their journey towards personal success.

Whenever they could reckon their inner consciousness, they are ashamed of themselves with their guilty consciousness and get into spirituality, believing, their personal GOD will spare them totally and let them go Scot Free ever.


They are hypocrites. Neither they could follow the principles of Religion/spirituality that instills moral values nor they could accept Atheism completely. They think that they are the smartest people, taking a Middle Path. The middle path that would facilitate them with personal success by hook or crook as well as personal protection by their merciful personal God.

At Least, India- The land of God and Spirituality could generate 1000s of philanthropists from a group of such hypocritical folks and serving underprivileged folks of her, who all are locked inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty by the filthy Ruling Class.




Nice that Atheists are having fun watching we all Theists. Continue waiting and watching so that Atheist can have some enlightenment, does not matter if they accept in public or not .

Hello Ravi:

Thanks for your lengthy response.

1. Because people are in the tight grip of traditional orthodoxy and superstition, Religious FATALISM and FANATICISM are rampant which leads to the division of the Society into India9% and India91%.

2. People in Power & Authority are also Indians, not from any other country. Most of them are from India9% sub-section. They indulge in all sorts of corruption and misbehavior... according to their interpretation of Scriptures; PPB gives a way out of such SINS committed every day with conviction!

Your personal interpretation of the purpose of PPB may be different... but you should in theory allow others to interpret it according to their own interpretation! That's only fair, IMO.

In their own inner conscience, these people have done full justice: Granted they indulged in corrupt and immoral behavior. But, according to the Scriptures, these people do PPB every hour on the hour. Therefore, in theory, it is reasonable to believe all the SINS are washed away!

You may call them hypocrites.. and other choicest names... but they have paid their dues in the form of frequent PPB.. in their Belief & Faith, PPB is a powerful means of cleansing the SINS.

3. You say there are 1000s of philanthropists among the People of Faith & Belief.. maybe.. may not be.. the poverty is still increasing and is endemic.

Only the SNA = Merciful God can reduce it... if HE/SHE truly exists!

More later....

 

[Mayuram V.Sankaran]

Dear MVS, I appreciate your concern for my enlightment, but I think your concern is unwarrented, I am sure I am on the right path.

The excerpts you have posted so far reveals more than adequately that Shri Vidyanand Saraswati is peddling the same old stuff I have heard and read from a hundred other sources. Please believe me, I am not someone who suddenly decided to reject faith, I was never a second to anyone when it came to faith in the Vedas and how it was interepreted by SV acharyas. It was a painful separation after years of introspection. But I must say, after freeing myself from this irrational faith system I feel liberated. Hope one day you also are able to free yourself and taste this freedom.

Cheers!

Narayani, The word that you have used in respect of Vidyanand Saraswati, as 'peddling' the same old stuff is both offensive and out of place. The learned scholar, who, considered from any angle, seems a very refined person from his writings, had chosen to delineate the "Vedic Concept of God" in his book from where I have given excerpts as you wanted. Naturally his sources of reference will be common to all and oft-cited. You cannot call it 'peddling' by any means. I would like to ask you whether you can show any tangible, verifiable evidence that you do have a 'mind' and that it is 'logical', 'reason-oriented' and 'free from prejudice or any kind of fallacy'.

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,
Studies have consistently shown that prayers may have the capacity to affect the condition of living organisms.

Please read this scholarly paper, summarizing such research:
Effects of Prayer » The Scientific and Medical Network

In my opinion, using a personal God is for a person to focus and facilitate any such non local effect of thoughts.

If I were you, I would not so readily dismiss Sri S. Ramanathan Ji's story, especially with so much contempt and derision.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri S. Ramanathan, First, let me wish you, your wife, and your family long, healthy, life filled with all the joy life can offer.

I think even the most vocal theists in this forum will feel embarrassed to admit their God is one you have described above.

If the reasons are genuine as you say, why is your God waiting for some deep and sincere prayer? Why did he not prevent the fire accident in the first place? I know, you are going to say Karma, but, if so, how come he intervened to save the life of just your wife (may she live a very long and happy life) but let the others with even less severe burns die, just because you prayed and they did not?

If a God really exists, I am sure he will not be such a narcissistic sadist as those who believe in the power of prayer make him out to be.

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

Hello Ravi:

Thanks for your lengthy response.

1. Because people are in the tight grip of traditional orthodoxy and superstition, Religious FATALISM and FANATICISM are rampant which leads to the division of the Society into India9% and India91%.

2. People in Power & Authority are also Indians, not from any other country. Most of them are from India9% sub-section. They indulge in all sorts of corruption and misbehavior... according to their interpretation of Scriptures; PPB gives a way out of such SINS committed every day with conviction!

Your personal interpretation of the purpose of PPB may be different... but you should in theory allow others to interpret it according to their own interpretation! That's only fair, IMO.

In their own inner conscience, these people have done full justice: Granted they indulged in corrupt and immoral behavior. But, according to the Scriptures, these people do PPB every hour on the hour. Therefore, in theory, it is reasonable to believe all the SINS are washed away!

You may call them hypocrites.. and other choicest names... but they have paid their dues in the form of frequent PPB.. in their Belief & Faith, PPB is a powerful means of cleansing the SINS.

3. You say there are 1000s of philanthropists among the People of Faith & Belief.. maybe.. may not be.. the poverty is still increasing and is endemic.

Only the SNA = Merciful God can reduce it... if HE/SHE truly exists!

More later....

Shri Yamaka,

You are missing my points...

All I am saying is the mentality of the authority people have gone so corrupted that they dare to corrupt the concept of Spirituality and giving sufficient solace to the Atheists that Theism is humbug and Theists are fools.

They got so fascinated with the grandeur standards of life that, they are stuck with their sense of absolute corruption in everything they could know, utilizing all the ways and means to be always in benefit.

For corrupted people whatever they do is their justice, dose not matter what all they use for their corruption to be successful and safe. They have their own syndicate to operate on the grounds of "the fittest survive" and that's the absolute justice for them

Just because such people use SNA and PPB to support their corruption can not make SNA and PPB bogus.


You can use SET to destroy INDIA. That does not mean SET is EVIL. We theist have this sense to distinguish possible EVIL out of existing Good. But it seem to me that Atheists like you can not distinguish.

It's OK. At least majority of the world's population as Theists can make such distinguished analysis and would ever honor SET that is endeavoring towards advancement for human kind.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

If I were you, I would not so readily dismiss Sri S. Ramanathan Ji's story, especially with so much contempt and derision.

Regards,
KRS

Shri KRS,

I feel, Shri Nara as practically/rationally Atheists, has attempted to substantiate his views assertively against God and Spirituality using the real life experience of a Theist (Shri S.Ramanathan).

The only point that Shri Nara made in the beginning - "I think even the most vocal theists in this forum will feel embarrassed to admit their God is one you have described above.", that I feel is not withstanding.

The rest of the points are usual clams from Atheistic POV.


No theists would be embarrassed with the personal real life incident that Shri S.Ramanathan have narrated.

It is not that God expects people to pray to him to get the relief. It's we Theists with belief in Spirituality who pray him to seek his mercy, sparing us from any miss deeds/sins that we might have done knowingly or unknowingly, expecting to be relieved from grievous pains/loss.

As per Karma theory we believe that near death experiences with lots of fear, pains and worries may have to be experienced based on certain types of one's Karma and surrendering to God with true and honest sense of apology, realizing ones probable miss deeds and begging for recovery may be honored.

But when Atheists don't believe in God and Spirituality, explaining them about the sensibility in prayers and the concepts of Karma Theory would serve no purpose. It would just lead to the same round and another round of same arguments

 

[Nara]

Please read this scholarly paper, summarizing such research:
Effects of Prayer » The Scientific and Medical Network

Dear brother, first, I want to make sure we treat the personal account of Shri Ramanathan strictly in an academic sense, I have no desire to cause any hurt to him. Whatever maybe his view on prayer, or mine, I wish him and his family well.

The "scholarly" paper you have cited is not an unbiased study, this reference cannot be accepted as evidence.

There have been some studies, not many, done on the efficacy of intercessory prayer and have been found to have no effect. There was one study that showed a reverse effect, as though God was getting irritated with all this prayering and wanted to show it. When I get back home I will search for it and post a link.

If I you think I have contempt for a God who allows fire accidents, then selectively saves those who sincerely pray, then I say guilty as charged. If there are theists here who are not embarrassed that their God would act this way, then I must say I am flummoxed!!

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

Please see the bio of the author (this from Huffington Post) of the scholarly, yes scholarly as he cites various research in his paper:

Dr. Larry Dossey is a former physician of internal medicine and former Chief of Staff of Medical City Dallas Hospital. He received his M.D. degree from Southwestern Medical School (Dallas), and trained in internal medicine at Parkland and the VA hospitals in Dallas. Dossey has lectured at medical schools and hospitals throughout the United States and abroad. In 1988 he delivered the annual Mahatma Gandhi Memorial Lecture in New Delhi, India, the only physician ever invited to do so. He is the author of 10 books dealing with consciousness, spirituality, and healing, including the New York Times bestseller ​

HEALING WORDS: THE POWER OF PRAYER AND THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE

, most recently ​

THE POWER OF PREMONITIONS

. Dr. Dossey is the former co-chairman of the Panel on Mind/Body Interventions, National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, National Institutes of Health. He is the executive editor of the peer-reviewed journal ​

EXPLORE: The Journal of Science and Healing

. Dr. Dossey lectures around the world. He lives in Santa Fe with his wife Barbara, who is a nurse-consultant and the author of several award-winning books.​

Just because you question it's scholarly base does not make it so. Again, this is one habit of Atheists: Just a hint of parapsychology mentioned anywhere, it is all unacceptable.

Yes, there are studies that do not find any effect of prayers. But that is not the point.

The point is that there are scholars and scientists like this who are trying to do proper research in this area. They are the true scientists as they have not closed their minds. They still have not come to a definite conclusion on this matter, unlike you have!

What this again shows is this. Even if people were to produce a God for you, you will find a way to debunk it. Such is the nature of the 'scientific' mind of an Atheist! What else I can say?

Regards,
KRS

Dear brother, first, I want to make sure we treat the personal account of Shri Ramanathan strictly in an academic sense, I have no desire to cause any hurt to him. Whatever maybe his view on prayer, or mine, I wish him and his family well.

The "scholarly" paper you have cited is not an unbiased study, this reference cannot be accepted as evidence.

There have been some studies, not many, done on the efficacy of intercessory prayer and have been found to have no effect. There was one study that showed a reverse effect, as though God was getting irritated with all this prayering and wanted to show it. When I get back home I will search for it and post a link.

If I you think I have contempt for a God who allows fire accidents, then selectively saves those who sincerely pray, then I say guilty as charged. If there are theists here who are not embarrassed that their God would act this way, then I must say I am flummoxed!!

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.... Again, this is one habit of Atheists: Just a hint of parapsychology mentioned anywhere, it is all unacceptable.S

Please dear brother, the web site you cited has an agenda, they say so themselves, they want to challenge the adequacy of "scientific materialism" as an exclusive basis for knowledge and values. They have a right to pursue this agenda, but having declared this as their agenda, they have no right to expect the articles that appear in their own web site to be taken ipso facto, seriously. Let them get their research cross checked and verified by independent third party free from any agenda, then I will take it seriously. Until then, to afford any serious consideration for these articles is irrational. If you want to question my scientific bent of mind on this account, then, all I can say is, let it be.

Here I give you the scientific study I mentioned about prayer -- click here. Note, unlike the web site you cited, this study was not conducted by Atheists with an a priori agenda. It is published by the US National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health. If you read through the summary of the article (if you want the whole article I can try to get through my university library) you will see that it is a well designed study with the same degree of rigor as any medical study.

The conclusion of this study: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG (coronary artery bypass graft), but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

That is, if the patients knew people are praying for their recovery, then they fared worse.

BTW even if a statistically significant result was found, it could have only indicated a placebo effect, no more, but that would have not stopped the theists, it would have only given an opening to the theists to tout this study as the final proof of God's existence.

But, Atheists in general take this as just another confirmation of the fallacy of a God who expects to be prayed to, not a clinching proof of the nonexistence of an uncaring First Cause. While I still believe there is no such First Cause, I will not cite this study to assert its nonexistence with the degree of certainty the theists are used to.

Leaving all this aside, the idea of a God who would allow a catastrophic tragedy to occur, and then withhold relief unless prayed to is a repugnant God. I see that you are avoiding addressing this point.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear Mam,

You have mentioned that God listens to our prayers but sometimes the answer to our prayer is No.

Mom. it is absolutely correct. It depends upon our karma and the the depth of our prayers and the prayer should be for a genuine reason. My wife met with a fire accident in 1998 with 55% burns. I admitted her in a very good hospital in chennai. When he started his treatment I applied to kumudam asking him to publish in the magazine in tamil calling for "koootuprarthanai." They also published mentioning a date and time for prayer for the recovery of my wife. It worked and slowly my wife got back life, etc.. In the same hospital some with less than 50% burns admitted in her next bed died before her eyes.



we have to do our duty and leave it to god for evaluation.


S. Ramanathan

As a doctor I have noted sometimes even when every parameter of a patient shows road to recovery still they finally succumb to illness or injury.


God is praised when we recover and God is blame when we die.
Life and Death is a cycle of change just like how we shed dead cells on daily basis.

Sometimes we feel that those who survived have a better Karma to those who died but that is not true all the while.

Death is sometimes the answer to questions in life.

 

[S.Ramanathan]

Dear Nara,

Thanks for your blessings. There is one saying that only the child who cry will get milk. My intention is to add value to prayers.

"God is praised when we recover and God is blame when we die.Sometimes we feel that those who survived have a better Karma"-Renuka

Mom your above words are absolutely correct. God would have given life to My wife otherwise he would not have reached the present level. Some times, survival is worst than death for those who met with burns accident.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Nara,

Thanks for your blessings. There is one saying that only the child who cry will get milk. My intention is to add value to prayers.

"God is praised when we recover and God is blame when we die.Sometimes we feel that those who survived have a better Karma"-Renuka

Mom your above words are absolutely correct. God would have given life to My wife otherwise he would not have reached the present level. Some times, survival is worst than death for those who met with burns accident.

Sorry to intervene in this discussion.

It all amounts to the PSYCHOLOGICAL NEEDS of the Believers!

Some have MORE needs, while others have no needs. The latter perhaps become Atheists, like Yamaka!

Will he become a Believer of God, Ghosts, Spirits & Religion if he is hit with a paralytic stroke? I seriously doubt.

He will introspect as to how he could have prevented it by behavioral modifications, perhaps!

Wait & watch.

 

[KRS]

Folks,

After reading the above post by Sri Yamaka Ji, a riddle popped in to my mind.

What is the difference between a Theist and An Atheist?

Answer:

Theist dies with the prayers to his maker.

Atheist dies with prayers to himself.



Regards,
KRS

 

[renuka]

Atheist dies with prayers to himself.



Regards,
KRS

Wow thats the ultimate isnt it?? SELF realization!!!LOL
Chidananda Roopah Shivoham Shivoham

 

[renuka]

Will he become a Believer of God, Ghosts, Spirits & Religion if he is hit with a paralytic stroke? I seriously doubt.

That all depends on his Glasgow Coma Scale(GCS)

If he is having a GCS of 1.... I dont think he will realize anything.


Taken from Wikipedia.
Elements of the scale

[TABLE="class: wikitable, width: 1"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]1[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]2[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]3[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]4[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]5[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]6[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Eyes[/TH]
[TD]Does not open eyes[/TD]
[TD]Opens eyes in response to painful stimuli[/TD]
[TD]Opens eyes in response to voice[/TD]
[TD]Opens eyes spontaneously[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]N/A[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Verbal[/TH]
[TD]Makes no sounds[/TD]
[TD]Incomprehensible sounds[/TD]
[TD]Utters inappropriate words[/TD]
[TD]Confused, disoriented[/TD]
[TD]Oriented, converses normally[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Motor[/TH]
[TD]Makes no movements[/TD]
[TD]Extension to painful stimuli (decerebrate response)[/TD]
[TD]Abnormal flexion to painful stimuli (decorticate response)[/TD]
[TD]Flexion / Withdrawal to painful stimuli[/TD]
[TD]Localizes painful stimuli[/TD]
[TD]Obeys commands[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Nara]

Atheist dies with prayers to himself.

Dear brother, I know your post was more a jest than serious argument. Still, I want to stand up for the amorphous group of free-thinkers, unbelievers if you will, who go by the generic term atheists. When it comes to faith in God and religion, my views align very closely with that of dear Y, but I don't neceessarily agree with all of the style or the content of what he presents as his views.

In other words, please do not think there is a singular group called Atheists.

I am as confirmed an atheist as any other atheist out there, yet, I will not fault those who live by their convictions. I see the orthodox Brahmin servants in Brahminical Matams, the ones who live by the austere regimen, I only have sympathy for them, no contempt, no animosity. However, when I see the scores of part-time Brahmins, who mingle among the high and mighty with suave and ease all week long, and come weekend, adorn clumsy kaccham and talk a high talk of their Brahmincal lineage and eminence, believe you me, all the Brahmins I have come across fit this mold, I feel no hesitation to call them out.

If dear Y must be called out for his flamboyant atheism, I hope I am allowed to assert my right to call upon the hypocrisy of these theists, weekend/wannabe brahmins, at the very least the ones who make hypocritical assertions.

Cheers!

 

[Jaykay767]

However, when I see the scores of part-time Brahmins, who mingle among the high and mighty with suave and ease all week long, and come weekend, adorn clumsy kaccham and talk a high talk of their Brahmincal lineage and eminence, believe you me, all the Brahmins I have come across fit this mold, I feel no hesitation to call them out.

Cheers!

Hi Nara,

can I ask why ?. All these "part-time" brahmins have businesses, jobs, etc.. so they have other engagements through the week & spend the weekend doing the various pujas/rituals.

what is wrong ?. yes, some of them may boast about their lineage & how religious they are. so what ?. pl dont tell me there are no hypocrites in atheists. !!

Cheers,
JK